Importance of GRE and UGPAs

[LetItSnow]

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Greetings, all.

I found this article in the current issue of JAVMA to be of some interest, especially to people in the pre-vet application phase of things.

It's my understanding that schools have meandered all over with regards to how highly they weight an applicant's academic performance. Perhaps studies like the one below will encourage schools to return to the older days of putting more value on undergrad academics and GRE scores?

As an aside, one of the journal authors was one of my interviewers at UMN this year.

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Abstract
Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association
February 15, 2011, Vol. 238, No. 4, Pages 454-461
doi: 10.2460/javma.238.4.454

Relationships among common measures of student performance and scores on the North American Veterinary Licensing Examination
Jared A. Danielson, PhD; Tsui-Feng Wu, PhD; Laura K. Molgaard, DVM; Vanessa A. Preast, DVM
Department of Veterinary Pathology, College of Veterinary Medicine, Iowa State University, Ames, IA 50011. (Danielson); The Office of Curricular and Student Assessment, College of Veterinary Medicine, Iowa State University, Ames, IA 50011. (Danielson, Wu, Preast); Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Minnesota, Saint Paul, MN 55108. (Molgaard)
Address correspondence to Dr. Danielson ([email protected]).

Objective—To determine relationships among several common measures of performance prior to and during veterinary school (ie, Graduate Record Examination [GRE] scores, undergraduate grade point average [UGPA], Qualifying Examination [QE] scores, overall grade point average during veterinary school [VGPA], and scores for the North American Veterinary Licensing Examination [NAVLE]).
Design—Longitudinal retrospective study.
Sample Population—192 students from the Iowa State University College of Veterinary Medicine and 152 students from the University of Minnesota College of Veterinary Medicine.
Procedures—Student UGPA, VGPA, and GRE score data were gathered during the normal admissions and academic processes. The QE was administered as a low-stakes examination at both institutions for the purposes of curricular assessment. Scores on the NAVLE were provided with student permission by the National Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners. Path analysis was used to explore hypothesized relationships among variables.
Results—GRE scores and UGPA predicted NAVLE scores indirectly through QE scores and VGPA, whereas QE scores and VGPA directly predicted NAVLE scores. The resulting models explained 58% to 62% of the variance in NAVLE scores, with QE score being the strongest predictor.
Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Results indicated that for veterinary school students, GRE scores, UGPA, VGPA, and QE scores could be used to predict scores on the NAVLE. This suggests that these measures could prove useful to veterinary schools when admitting students or preparing them for the NAVLE.

 

[Marsala]

Interesting thought. There are some of us out here that wouldn't benefit from the older days of UG GPA and GRE scores. Because some of us had unfortunate UG careers due to lack of parental support (read working 70 hours a week), illness (I know there's a few of you out there), and other circumstances. This doesn't make anyone who didn't have a perfect UG career dumber, or less worthy, or incapable of vet school. There are different methods of measuring intelligence and ability. This is why post-bacc and graduate grades and the whole candidate are considered by some schools. I personally know some great vets out there that didn't have sparkling UG records, yet were viewed as viable candidates by schools that consider factors other than UG GPA and GRE scores.


Maybe that's why the older days and older ways were left behind?

 

[twelvetigers]

I was just lazy, more than anything. I have changed my ways, but my GPA continues to follow me around. And, according to the 8 rejections I've received (most presumably made without reviewing my entire file), they still put a lot of value in your GPA scores. So, uh... I don't really think the system needs and overhaul, and if I did, I would be pushing in the opposite direction (i.e. look at the applicant's entire file before putting it in the "pbbbt" pile based on GPA/GRE alone).

I somehow doubt that all students with lower UG GPAs did poorly on the NAVLE, despite the correlations. Maybe some of them were the very best students? Even so... man, I don't want to encourage schools to punish those of us who made some mistakes any more than they already do. 🙁

 

[LetItSnow]

Even so... man, I don't want to encourage schools to punish those of us who made some mistakes any more than they already do. 🙁

"Encourage" was a poor choice of words on my part because it connotes my support; sorry about that. I really just meant that I wondered if studies like that would push schools to raise the importance of those predictors (UGPA and GRE), for better or worse.

As far as my personal application, I'm sorta in both camps. On the one hand, as noted in another thread, I had early GPAs of 1.76 and 0.00 (just two classes at that school). It wasn't until I went back a decade later that I cranked out the 4.00 at multiple schools. So while I'm certainly delighted to have my recent GPAs considered more strongly, it would actually have hurt me if my overall GPA mattered.

Last year, I didn't get in. Last year, UMN didn't count your relative academic success in their final ranking of candidates (i.e. the B student was on equal footing to the A student). This year they changed it so that your academic score was 33% of your overall ranking. While I made other improvements, that change clearly helped me. My understanding of the reason they changed it was that they felt that years ago when they downgraded the importance of academics, they overshot the mark a bit and were trying to return to a bit more middle-ground. I can see that making sense.

 

[squirrelsrule]

I'd be happy if more weight was put on GPAs 😀. Knowing that experience is important too is what has motivated me to get out there and get a job as a vet tech, which I know will help me a lot since I have NO experience working in a clinic.

The article says that the scores on the qualifying exam and GPA during vet school directly correlated with NAVLE scores where GPA and GRE scores correlated but not as strongly. So, I think we could all agree that if there was a fair qualifying exam that covered the science material taught in undergrad coursework, that would provide good insight into how ready we are for vet school. Then all that matters is that you learned the material. If you had a bad first few years because you were lazy, had to work a ton, or were sick, you would still be able to show that you went back and learned what you need to know. I vote vet school admission is already nerve racking enough, though, and I wouldn't want to have a single test determine how ready I was , but maybe if they had something like that to factor in with GPA (more as a way to redeem yourself if your GPA is low than to hurt you if you do poorly on it) it might be a really good addition to the process.

 

[168135]

So, I think we could all agree that if there was a fair qualifying exam that covered the science material taught in undergrad coursework, that would provide good insight into how ready we are for vet school. Then all that matters is that you learned the material.

All the GRE tells me is that you're able to memorize a bunch of pointless crap at some point before you're able to take the test.

GRE scores tend to be lower here because we don't have the prep like you guys do in the states.

I'd much rather take a test that demonstrated what I took out of undergrad (science, basic writing skills, maybe some simple math). I'd rather put time and effort into THAT than the GRE.

I hate the GRE. *fumes*

 

[NStarz]

All the GRE tells me is that you're able to memorize a bunch of pointless crap at some point before you're able to take the test.

GRE scores tend to be lower here because we don't have the prep like you guys do in the states.

I'd much rather take a test that demonstrated what I took out of undergrad (science, basic writing skills, maybe some simple math). I'd rather put time and effort into THAT than the GRE.

I hate the GRE. *fumes*

Sorry, but I'd rather take the GRE than the MCAT any day!!! (Which is kind of what you're describing!)

 

[heylodeb]

Sorry, but I'd rather take the GRE than the MCAT any day!!! (Which is kind of what you're describing!)

although I agree with you in the fact that I am REALLY glad I haven't had to take the MCAT - I do feel that it would probably be a better test in order to place students on a more even playing field since undergrad GPA's and science GPA's can vary so much from institution to institution.

 

[NStarz]

although I agree with you in the fact that I am REALLY glad I haven't had to take the MCAT - I do feel that it would probably be a better test in order to place students on a more even playing field since undergrad GPA's and science GPA's can vary so much from institution to institution.

Touche.

 

[TomTheK9Fixr]

Sorry, but I'd rather take the GRE than the MCAT any day!!! (Which is kind of what you're describing!)

I took the MCAT in undergrad b/c I got a good deal on Kaplan prep classes... Ended up getting a 29 which is decent. My highest GRE was 1170. In my opinion, my MCAT score is more impressive than GRE tho I havent really looked into the stats (% rank etc).

I think the MCAT should be used b/c it is grueling but preparation really pays off. With the GRE, I feel like it's a crap shoot especially the verbal section. I mean, someone can get lucky and have a familiar set of terms yet, take it a week later and get significantly different score. I'm a case in point.

 

[NStarz]

I took the MCAT in undergrad b/c I got a good deal on Kaplan prep classes... Ended up getting a 29 which is decent. My highest GRE was 1170. In my opinion, my MCAT score is more impressive than GRE tho I havent really looked into the stats (% rank etc).

I think the MCAT should be used b/c it is grueling but preparation really pays off. With the GRE, I feel like it's a crap shoot especially the verbal section. I mean, someone can get lucky and have a familiar set of terms yet, take it a week later and get significantly different score. I'm a case in point.

I completely agree with you. However, for me personally, I love not having to take the MCAT. Is the GRE score representative of my abilities/knowledge? Probably not. But I see my pre-med friends struggling to study for the beast of a test, and I don't envy myself their position

Pre-vet used to have the VCAT, right? Why did the schools phase that out?

 

[TomTheK9Fixr]

I completely agree with you. However, for me personally, I love not having to take the MCAT. Is the GRE score representative of my abilities/knowledge? Probably not. But I see my pre-med friends struggling to study for the beast of a test, and I don't envy myself their position

Pre-vet used to have the VCAT, right? Why did the schools phase that out?

Not sure but I'd imagine that money had something to do with it. MCAT GRE and VCAT are businesses, perhaps AAVMC chose GRE based on money. Just a guess.

Also, I took the LSAT in undergrad b/c my college offered it for free. I know, I am looney lol but I wanted to try it. OMG, I didn't study at all and I did horrible!!! The logic questions were insane!

 

[DukeTheDog]

I cant decide between VMRCVM and Wisconsin!

But one of those two : D

 

[LetItSnow]

GRE scores tend to be lower here because we don't have the prep like you guys do in the states.

Wait, wait, what prep? We have GRE prep here?

All I did is take the two 'practice' tests and read the math 'book' that they send you on a CD when you register.

I'm with ya; I didn't like the GRE either. I felt like most of the math was an attempt to see if you could remember all the tricky shortcuts for various things. All the problems felt like the kind of thing where if you worked it out the 'long' way, you'd arrive at the answer in 5 minutes, but if you knew the shortcut you'd get it in 30 seconds. And, of course, you don't have time for 5 minutes per question.

 

[LetItSnow]

With the GRE, I feel like it's a crap shoot especially the verbal section. I mean, someone can get lucky and have a familiar set of terms yet, take it a week later and get significantly different score. I'm a case in point.

They claim that that doesn't really happen much; that people's scores generally stay pretty much the same test to test. I know that my two practice tests and my 'real' test all had similar scores.

I'm guessing you're an outlier?

That said, it's hard NOT to feel like you did about the verbal section. It seems pretty random: you either get words you know or you don't. *shrug*

 

[GellaBella]

All the GRE tells me is that you're able to memorize a bunch of pointless crap at some point before you're able to take the test.

GRE scores tend to be lower here because we don't have the prep like you guys do in the states.

I'd much rather take a test that demonstrated what I took out of undergrad (science, basic writing skills, maybe some simple math). I'd rather put time and effort into THAT than the GRE.

I hate the GRE. *fumes*

I didn't take any GRE prep course and did pretty well. Just self-studied for the math section because its been 10 years since I've taken any sort of math course.

It sounds like there is a niche in Canada that needs to be filled though. I bet you could make lots of money starting up a GRE prep course. Some people certainly pay a lot here for it, but I wouldn't say that it is the 'norm' for most people to take a prep course for the GRE, at least, I don't htink I know anyone who has.

 

[Coquette22]

To straighten things out, scarcelyheard didn't mean that we don't have access to GRE prep courses and that you guys do. We have GRE courses too if you're willing to pay for them, just like you guys do. What she means that we don't take tests like the SAT, so for most Canadians, the GRE is the first time we ever encounter tests like that. We don't all have standardized testing.

 

[LetItSnow]

What she means that we don't take tests like the SAT, so for most Canadians, the GRE is the first time we ever encounter tests like that. We don't all have standardized testing.

Ahhh! Interesting, I did not know that! I can see where that would make it more daunting.

 

[nuevaburra]

Now what would be REALLY interesting would be to see if the NAVLE scores correlated with success as a vet. That is kind of an assumption here. It's sort of DUHHH that good scores on one test would correlate with good scores in school (which is based on lots of tests) and with good scores on ANOTHER test. So what they really found out with that study was that some people are just always good test-takers 😛

I'm one of those lucky bastards who can ace multiple choice tests in my sleep (1580 GRE). But that says NOTHING about my interpersonal skills, work ethic, dependability, maturity, etc. Which, if I had applied right out of college, would definitely have been lacking. Like a good cheese I needed a few more years to ripen. So test scores aren't everything, thank goodness.

 

[Coquette22]

Since most Canadians are only competing against other Canadians, I'm not sure it makes a difference overall though. It may not matter for all Canadian GRE takers, but it could for some. I scored a 1230, and I could have brought that up if I felt the need to retake it by doing some more math practice (I can do the math, just not quite fast enough 😳. I did very well on verbal though).

 

[New Foundland]

Canadian vet schools don't seem to take the GRE seriously at all anyhow..
I think the only one that requires it is AVC, and there it's 5% of your total ranking.

 

[Coquette22]

This is true, forgot about that. OVC is the MCAT and the other school (AFAIK) don't require a test at all.

 

[168135]

If we have any prep courses, I've NEVER heard of them. It's a 6 hour drive for me to take the test... and at least a 3 hour drive for me to take the course wherever it exists.

It seems like you guys in the states have better access to testing centers and prep courses than I do... I asked around the university about the GRE and I get this response: "GR-what? What's that?"

A friend of mine has to drive 3 hours for her MCAT prep-course, and 6 hour drive to write the test.

I studied my tail off for it... and have to retake it, but I can't because of the distance.

I think I'm the type of person who would benefit better from a course than by just memorizing the stuff, taking the test and hoping my strategy is okay.

I sucked at the verbal. The good strategy I heard of was to memorize anywhere from 200-500 words. I'd rather memorize 200-500 anatomical structures than words.

 

[sumstorm]

I couldn't have ever afforded a prep class if I wanted to.

I have taken the VCAT and MCAT. The VCAT was dropped because of costs all around; it wasn't profitable for the testing centers, it was expensive, it costs to maintain/update tests, and there were few studies to correlate results to performance (so few take the test.) I found the VCAT/MCAT similar, but did better on the MCAT. I did well enough on the VCAT that I still have those scores sent with my apps (lifetime scores) to show that my UG GPA was less a reflection of my ability than the fact that I worked insane hours to pay my way.

Also, 2 schools are a poor sample size, particularly if you think about the fact that doing well on the exam vs poor on the exam is all bottomed out; the vast majority (I presume, based on pass stats) passed. So then, differences become measures of minutia. I don't care if I get a 99% or a 100% or a 98% on an exam...just reading one question wrong could be the difference there...minutia that isn't necessarily representative of my skills/knowledge but of our interpretation of info/wording.

 

[Coquette22]

It may just be where you live, SH. There's flyers for GRE/MCAT/LAST prep courses and tests all over campus here. I have no doubt that Americans in more less-densely populated areas would have a hard time getting to a prep course too.

 

[168135]

Thanks Coquette. I'll have to look into that. If it's a weekend thing and offered during the summer, I'd love to do it. If it's a once a week thing for months... ergh.

 

[Coquette22]

I have no idea what it's like, I've never looked into them since even affording the test itself was a stretch for me, and I'm mostly okay with my score. Wander around the LSC while you're here, there's posters everywhere that you can get the info from.

 

[sumstorm]

there are online ones. I just used books, but I know some folks loved the online preps.

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

I got a GRE book, Barron's I believe, and studied (on my own) June - mid August and raised my score by 300 points. It was a lot cheaper than taking a course. 🙂

I was pretty serious about it and had a schedule for 6 days a week and spent 30-60 min/day workign on it (or made up for it if I missed a few days on another day)... I was just done with my freshman year of college and scared crapless about it at the time.

 

[LetItSnow]

I got a GRE book, Barron's I believe, and studied (on my own) June - mid August and raised my score by 300 points. It was a lot cheaper than taking a course.

That is seriously impressive. Way to go!

 

[nyanko]

Now what would be REALLY interesting would be to see if the NAVLE scores correlated with success as a vet. That is kind of an assumption here. It's sort of DUHHH that good scores on one test would correlate with good scores in school (which is based on lots of tests) and with good scores on ANOTHER test. So what they really found out with that study was that some people are just always good test-takers 😛

Yeah, that's what I was thinking looking at this too. Does it really matter exactly what the NAVLE score was, as long as it was a pass? This study was a bit of a waste of time, IMO.

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

That is seriously impressive. Way to go!

THANK YOU! I was seriously bad at taking multiple choice/standardized tests and thought that I'd have to spend my entire UG career te-taking it (I took it that time before entering my second year of undergrad). I almost had to RE take it because I took time off to work on my PhD first and my score was going to expire if I waited another application cycle for vet school ... was so not ok with letting that happen, lol!

 

[l2vet]

I got a GRE book, Barron's I believe, and studied (on my own) June - mid August and raised my score by 300 points. It was a lot cheaper than taking a course. 🙂

Congrats to you! I'd just like to second that studying on your own CAN be done.

I took a prep course since it was subsidized by my program (Dr. P <3). But I studied on my own for both the ACT and SAT. I raised my math ACT score from a 26 to a 35 by studying about the same length of time as JHL did. You CAN do it and it doesn't have to be horridly expensive.

As for the online courses, I'm pretty sure they're cheaper than the classroom courses?