Importance of radiology

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Symmetry11

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How often do radiologists drastically change the course of treatment? Do specialists heavily rely on a radiologists DDx, say a cardiologists for some type of cardiovascualr disease or do they use imaging as practice in defensive medicine? Sorry if my question is insulting, as a novice growing more interested in the breadth of science that needs to be understood for radiology, I'm curious to know how other physcians see radiology, CMS cuts notwithstanding.
 
Imaging plays a huge role in diagnosis. Clinicians will often wait for imaging results before arriving at a diagnosis or deciding on a course of action. Specialists frequently read their own imaging, but an official read by a radiologist is always needed. Specialists are great at recognizing pathology on imaging related to their area of expertise, but they risk missing subtle findings that only a radiologist can see.

A lot of clinicians **** on radiology. Some will tell you that a radiologist is useless because specialists read their own imaging without looking at the radiology read. The truth is that radiologists learn to read imaging a lot differently from clinicians. Clinicians have the benefit of having a history and physical when looking at imaging; radiologists have to make an impression purely on imaging.
 
Imaging plays a huge role in diagnosis. Clinicians will often wait for imaging results before arriving at a diagnosis or deciding on a course of action. Specialists frequently read their own imaging, but an official read by a radiologist is always needed. Specialists are great at recognizing pathology on imaging related to their area of expertise, but they risk missing subtle findings that only a radiologist can see.

A lot of clinicians **** on radiology. Some will tell you that a radiologist is useless because specialists read their own imaging without looking at the radiology read. The truth is that radiologists learn to read imaging a lot differently from clinicians. Clinicians have the benefit of having a history and physical when looking at imaging; radiologists have to make an impression purely on imaging.


So radiologists are undervalued and they do not make findings that could change the course of treatment? I know this does happen, but how often? Is this entirely dependent on the clinical competence of the specialist or are some things more easily found through imaging?
 
Also I just remembered a post by someone which said that radiology is not a field one should go into if they are looking to be THE MAN! Is this true?
 
How often do radiologists drastically change the course of treatment? Do specialists heavily rely on a radiologists DDx, say a cardiologists for some type of cardiovascualr disease or do they use imaging as practice in defensive medicine? Sorry if my question is insulting, as a novice growing more interested in the breadth of science that needs to be understood for radiology, I'm curious to know how other physcians see radiology, CMS cuts notwithstanding.

All the time. Emergency physicians discharge or admit patients depending on what the radiologist says about, say, a brain or abdomen/pelvis CT. Surgeons operate based on if a radiologist sees an appendicitis or a small bowel obstruction. Internists send out consults based on what the radiologist thinks is an abnormal colon or mass.

Certain specialties do tend to get pretty good at reading images relevant to their specialties, such as neurologists/neurosurgeons with brain CTs and orthopods with bone films, but radiologists exist to also identify the zebras. There are many benign anatomic variants and rare pathology presentations that you cannot identify as normal or abnormal unless you have been trained to do so. Radiology is a field where you can't see what you don't know. And that is what makes it scary when someone tries to read a study that he/she hasn't been fully trained in.
 
Medicine is a team sport... even if some the team members don't understand that it is.
 
Imaging plays a huge role in diagnosis. Clinicians will often wait for imaging results before arriving at a diagnosis or deciding on a course of action. Specialists frequently read their own imaging, but an official read by a radiologist is always needed. Specialists are great at recognizing pathology on imaging related to their area of expertise, but they risk missing subtle findings that only a radiologist can see.

A lot of clinicians **** on radiology. Some will tell you that a radiologist is useless because specialists read their own imaging without looking at the radiology read. The truth is that radiologists learn to read imaging a lot differently from clinicians. Clinicians have the benefit of having a history and physical when looking at imaging; radiologists have to make an impression purely on imaging.

I agree, and many don't know the breadth of knowledge required to be a competent radiologist. An ortho resident once told me "radiologists miss a lot of ****". Most don't know radiology is harder than it looks.
 
Radiology as a field has been out there for more than 100 years and is a vibrant field in most countries including countries without the so called "defensive medicine". There should be a reason for it beyond the legal system, regulations or laws.

A while ago, we had an IT issue that clinicians could see the images in PACS but could not read our report only for a short time. There was a real chaos all over the hospital and non-stop phone calls. There should be a good reason for it.

If the clinicians read their own imaging studies in a large scale, what is the need for night coverage or telerad? Why hospitals even bother thinking about telerad? What is the turn around time? Why failure to communicate the results is the most common reason that radiologists get sued?

The impact that I have on people's lives in a 10 or 12 hour shift is definitely more than any other physician in the hospital. I am not naive and don't claim that every Xray or CT or MRI that I read has impact on patient's management or I don't claim that some group of clinicians are not very good at reading their own small organ system or finding certain pathologies.

Some clinicians esp surgeons are very good at interpreting some parts of imaging studies. Also Some of them already know about the results of a CT or MRI based on their clinical judgment and in fact don't really need to look at the imaging study in detail. However, most clinicians esp in private practice heavily rely on radiology reports. There is a bias among medical students because usually in academic places due to sub-specialized nature of work, some clinicians are good at very limited pathology that they look for (for example, neuro-ophthalmologist who looks at stenosis of transverse sinus).

But even in cases that clinicians are good at interpreting their limited pathology (vascular surgery and AA dissection), due to lots of other differentials, they system heavily relies on radiology interpretation for deciding on the next step. In other words people don't go to a vascular surgeon and say they have aortic dissection. They for example go to a GI doctor f or a family doctor or ED doctor and they say they have abdominal pain. The GI doctor may order a CT and while a GI doctor may be good at looking at the biliary system, he has zero knowledge about aortic dissection. Once the radiologist makes the diagnosis of aortic dissection the patient is referred to the vascular surgeon. Though the vascular surgeon may CLAIM that he doesn't need radiology report to look at the dissection, the patient's live is saved here because of the radiologist. If the radiologist misses the dissection, the GI doctor may send the patient home with some anti-acids. Once I saved a patient when the urologist looked at a CT himself and was about to admit the patient in hospitalist service with the diagnosis of renal stone while the patient had acute aortic dissection.
 
Radiology as a field has been out there for more than 100 years and is a vibrant field in most countries including countries without the so called "defensive medicine". There should be a reason for it beyond the legal system, regulations or laws.

A while ago, we had an IT issue that clinicians could see the images in PACS but could not read our report only for a short time. There was a real chaos all over the hospital and non-stop phone calls. There should be a good reason for it.

If the clinicians read their own imaging studies in a large scale, what is the need for night coverage or telerad? Why hospitals even bother thinking about telerad? What is the turn around time? Why failure to communicate the results is the most common reason that radiologists get sued?

The impact that I have on people's lives in a 10 or 12 hour shift is definitely more than any other physician in the hospital. I am not naive and don't claim that every Xray or CT or MRI that I read has impact on patient's management or I don't claim that some group of clinicians are not very good at reading their own small organ system or finding certain pathologies.

Some clinicians esp surgeons are very good at interpreting some parts of imaging studies. Also Some of them already know about the results of a CT or MRI based on their clinical judgment and in fact don't really need to look at the imaging study in detail. However, most clinicians esp in private practice heavily rely on radiology reports. There is a bias among medical students because usually in academic places due to sub-specialized nature of work, some clinicians are good at very limited pathology that they look for (for example, neuro-ophthalmologist who looks at stenosis of transverse sinus).

But even in cases that clinicians are good at interpreting their limited pathology (vascular surgery and AA dissection), due to lots of other differentials, they system heavily relies on radiology interpretation for deciding on the next step. In other words people don't go to a vascular surgeon and say they have aortic dissection. They for example go to a GI doctor f or a family doctor or ED doctor and they say they have abdominal pain. The GI doctor may order a CT and while a GI doctor may be good at looking at the biliary system, he has zero knowledge about aortic dissection. Once the radiologist makes the diagnosis of aortic dissection the patient is referred to the vascular surgeon. Though the vascular surgeon may CLAIM that he doesn't need radiology report to look at the dissection, the patient's live is saved here because of the radiologist. If the radiologist misses the dissection, the GI doctor may send the patient home with some anti-acids. Once I saved a patient when the urologist looked at a CT himself and was about to admit the patient in hospitalist service with the diagnosis of renal stone while the patient had acute aortic dissection.


A separate but related question I have is why has the CMS seemingly singled out radiologists for cuts? Or has this happened to the extent of radiology in all fields? What motivates CMS cuts? (not asking about money, just trying to figure out the rationale behind these cuts).
 
Also, could someone describe what the psychosocial issues that some radiologists don't want to deal with are?
 
The administrators simply looked at the largest line item and started chipping. Radiology was one of the fastest increasing costs to the "system" that they could directly target. The others were drugs and devices. Should CMS gain the ability to dictate price on those services, expect huge cuts there too.
 
Also, with the increase in mid-level providers (especially in the ED setting), you as the radiologist are often the first physician to even look at the patient. A radiologist has the opportunity to impact a significantly higher number of patients' care than even the busiest clinician or surgeon. Competent clinicians recognize the value we add, whether their pride will let them admit it or not. The biggest weakness of radiology as a field is that we do not own our patients and thus tend to have less leverage with hospital exec committees and policymakers.
 
Radiology has very important role in medicine ..... unless your name is Ezekiel Emmanuel.
 
Speaking of the great Satan...

The ACR has this guy as the Keynote Speaker in DC this year. What are they thinking?
http://www.acr.org/annual-meeting

I think... well I would like to think it is the whole "keep friends close and enemies closer" but yeah when I saw that I thought he looked familiar... then I looked at one of my old posts of a youtube video and sure enough its that piece of work. It should lead a vibrant discussion to say the least.

I just hope the ACR doesn't drink his Kool Aid with the whole Imaging 3.0 thing.

If I could ask him a question I would ask if he as a breast oncologist reads his own mammograms and take liability.
 
I think... well I would like to think it is the whole "keep friends close and enemies closer" but yeah when I saw that I thought he looked familiar... then I looked at one of my old posts of a youtube video and sure enough its that piece of work. It should lead a vibrant discussion to say the least.

I just hope the ACR doesn't drink his Kool Aid with the whole Imaging 3.0 thing.

If I could ask him a question I would ask if he as a breast oncologist reads his own mammograms and take liability.

Hell, ask him if he looks at his own histology.
 
I think... well I would like to think it is the whole "keep friends close and enemies closer" but yeah when I saw that I thought he looked familiar... then I looked at one of my old posts of a youtube video and sure enough its that piece of work. It should lead a vibrant discussion to say the least.

I just hope the ACR doesn't drink his Kool Aid with the whole Imaging 3.0 thing.

If I could ask him a question I would ask if he as a breast oncologist reads his own mammograms and take liability.


Oncology is heavily dependent on radiology/imaging. In fact, we do all the diagnosis, staging and work up and the oncologists order chemotherapy and then follow the patients with imaging. In my experience, most oncologists are terrible at reading the imaging studies themselves.
 
Oncology is heavily dependent on radiology/imaging. In fact, we do all the diagnosis, staging and work up and the oncologists order chemotherapy and then follow the patients with imaging. In my experience, most oncologists are terrible at reading the imaging studies themselves.

Which, based on his past remarks, he clearly does not appreciate. We are the top "of his hit list". We are in the "ether" and there should be less of us.
 
Which, based on his past remarks, he clearly does not appreciate. We are the top "of his hit list". We are in the "ether" and there should be less of us.
Having less of us isn't a bad thing. Radiology in the last 2 years has gone way down in competitiveness and quality of applicants. Several of my interviewers and even a PD at a top 10 program alluded to that fact. And with the advent of computer tools that will make radiologists more efficient, residency programs should prepare for this. Otherwise radiologists as an entire group will be seen as an commodity. The ones who feel this blow first are the residents, who are low balled when applying to jobs. And when you take away job security in a medical field...well, you guys already know. Some of those community programs really shouldn't exist, IMHO.
 
Having less of us isn't a bad thing. Radiology in the last 2 years has gone way down in competitiveness and quality of applicants. Several of my interviewers and even a PD at a top 10 program alluded to that fact. And with the advent of computer tools that will make radiologists more efficient, residency programs should prepare for this. Otherwise radiologists as an entire group will be seen as an commodity. The ones who feel this blow first are the residents, who are low balled when applying to jobs. And when you take away job security in a medical field...well, you guys already know. Some of those community programs really shouldn't exist, IMHO.

We are beyond the curve of computer tools. PACS and computer tools belong to a decade ago.

I see increase volume in radiology workload. I don't think we really need less radiologists.

Medicine is not a free market. Insurance company is not going to pay more per procedure or less because the number of people in certain specialty is high or low. At most, the hospitals may give a bonus of 20-30K to hire the physician groups that are in high demand.

For example, there is shortage of primary care physicians but their salaries are not high. On the other hand, there are too many cardiac surgeons but their salaries are still very high.

Having less radiologists is not good for the health of the field in the long run. It may be good for short term and for recent graduates but not for long term.

One can argue that these days the quality of radiology services are better because almost all new hires are subspecialists. Most groups have robust IR services and most groups have almost all essential subspecialties.

I don't think we have too many radiologists. Show me one radiologist who can not find a job. I not talking about a specific job in Manhattan we a specific salary. I am talking about a reasonable job.

Recently we were in the process of hiring two new radiologists. After going through the hiring process, I found out that the market is not that tight.
 
For some outsider input: I'm in the last few months of an EM residency and have an attending contract signed with a group with good radiology coverage.

I still look at all my own imaging. Often, the radiologist report is what I figured. Sometimes, the radiologist will see or read something I wasn't sure about and which changes things. Rarely, I'll catch something -- low single digit number of times here -- missed by the radiologist and will call to clarify. Subtle fracture or what have you.

I / we frequently wait on dispo to see the radiologist's interpretation of things.

I love our radiologists, and people who think they don't add much value are delusional.
 
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With the advent of computer tools that will make radiologists more efficient, residency programs should prepare for this. Otherwise radiologists as an entire group will be seen as an commodity.

I disagree with this. We have passed the curve of PACS. Most other tools are going to make us less efficient, believe it or not.

Please also mention your level of training next time like PHD, MD, Intern, Resident and ...
No offense. But there are lots of high school seniors, college students and IT people who don't have any idea about radiology and give definite comments on these kind of topics.
 
I disagree with this. We have passed the curve of PACS. Most other tools are going to make us less efficient, believe it or not.

Please also mention your level of training next time like PHD, MD, Intern, Resident and ...
No offense. But there are lots of high school seniors, college students and IT people who don't have any idea about radiology and give definite comments on these kind of topics.

I'm not the original poster but I feel the need to defend him/her.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...iologist-can-read-images-and-medical-records/
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...-could-show-computers-a-smarter-way-to-learn/

No offense to you. Just because you're a PP attending doesn't mean you know technology or computer science...learn some humility. You make definitive statements and you don't know much about radiology, either, it seems. And please don't say "you don't know anything, you're just a resident" like you did in your other threads. Level of training isn't indicative of intelligence.

Sincerely,
Progressive Med Student
 
I'm not the original poster but I feel the need to defend him/her.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...iologist-can-read-images-and-medical-records/
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/...-could-show-computers-a-smarter-way-to-learn/

No offense to you. Just because you're a PP attending doesn't mean you know technology or computer science...learn some humility. You make definitive statements and you don't know much about radiology, either, it seems. And please don't say "you don't know anything, you're just a resident" like you did in your other threads. Level of training isn't indicative of intelligence.

Sincerely,
Progressive Med Student

A med student knowledge of radiology is zero or sometimes negative. So you are not in the position to give comment about the radiology knowledge of an attending radiologist with a few years of private practice. Very interesting that a med student is accusing a radiology attending with few years of private practice experience of not knowing much about radiology.

The discussion does not have anything to do with intelligence. Your comment proves how stupid you are.

Next time also log in with your own account and not some shared account that 100 people are using.

To other people who may read the links above:
CAD (Computer aided detection) has been out there in mammography for 15 years. It is even FDA approved. Ask any mammographers. They even don't look at its results. It is terrible. A lot of these efforts by IBM or other companies are more of an advertisement and believe it or not, has been out there for more than 20 years.

In theory, a computer software can do what a family doctor does. It is algorithms to follow. In practice it will never happen.
 
Brah,

Don't question the shark. He's gonna give us all jobs in socal when we're done.

Sincerely,
Reactionary Medical Student
 
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