Important legislation issue for va apta members

[Coach Hoski]

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Colleagues,
I am writing today to discuss a proposal which is currently past committee phases of Virginia legislation.

A group of pseudo-scientific individuals calling themselves "Kinesiotherapists" have reached a new level of audacity. They have petitioned for years to become licensed in Virginia and have of course been denied every occasion. This year, however is different. A traditionally African American school in Virginia has begun a B.Sc. program in Kinesiotherapy and the Kinesiotherapy movement now has thereby garnered a significant amount of support from African American community.
Of course we can understand, support and appreciate the importance of offering academic opportunities to all demographics including members of the African American community, however offering licensure to a group of under-qualified individuals whose self-proclaimed scope of practice is nearly 100% overlapping with the esteemed and respected field of Physical Therapy is not a socially responsible method to do so.

I urge APTA members who live in VA to go write your state representative to vote NO on this important issue.
Please go to www.apta.org and click advocacy, then take action, then legislative action center, and then the Kinesiotherapy issue should open up. An already drafted letter will open and all you have to do is click send.

Thank you for your time!

Coach Hoski, SPT

 

[sierra54]

Will insurance companies even reimburse for their services?

Also, wouldn't they be similar to athletic trainers working in physical therapy clinics, able to function as techs only?

 

[Coach Hoski]

Will insurance companies even reimburse for their services?

Also, wouldn't they be similar to athletic trainers working in physical therapy clinics, able to function as techs only?

Yes, Kinesiotherapists will be able to bill for their services using the same CPT codes that PTs bill. The exception is that they are not going to be able to bill for manual therapy.
Clearly this is a threat to not only our professional growth, but to public safety as Kinesiotherapy degrees are a 4 year B.Sc. and claim to render services for physical rehabilitation for which only PTs are qualified.

 

[TheOx777]

One word..........ALARMING!!!

 

[atstudent]

Yes, Kinesiotherapists will be able to bill for their services using the same CPT codes that PTs bill. The exception is that they are not going to be able to bill for manual therapy.
Clearly this is a threat to not only our professional growth, but to public safety as Kinesiotherapy degrees are a 4 year B.Sc. and claim to render services for physical rehabilitation for which only PTs are qualified.

Ummm... careful. APTA members can provide rehabilitation services with even less.. An Associates degree for PTA's, PT programs that are Masters Degrees..

 

[Coach Hoski]

Ummm... careful. APTA members can provide rehabilitation services with even less.. An Associates degree for PTA's, PT programs that are Masters Degrees..

Fair, and I in no way mean to suggest that longtime practicing B.S. PTs or MPTs or PTAs are underqualified. Rather I think they are equipped with appropriate didactic curriculum to satisfy their clinical knowledge/skill needs given the profession's goals at the time those degrees were offered.
The PT profession, however, has worked hard to improve the entry level standard to a DPT level education.
A B.Sc. degree attempting to undercut a nearly identical scope of practice is hardly an appropriate way to ensure patient safety and appropriate health screening procedures. Probably the biggest reason for the transfer to a DPT degree is to ensure that clinicians are adequately educated to be able to autonomously identify refer, treat&refer, and treat-only scenarios. In short, I feel that this would be a step backward and undermines the attempts by the APTA to ensure patient safety in health screening.

 

[johncronejr]

Read about Kinesiotherapy at the follwoing link:

http://www.caahep.org/Content.aspx?ID=42

Doesn't sound much different than a physical therapist.

 

[atstudent]

Here's my question for you though.. Why is a DPT superior to a 4-year Bachelors Degree in Kinesiotherapy or Athletic Training? To get into DPT school you have to have a Bachelors Degree, but that degree can be in ANYTHING.

Realistically a DPT is not building on anything. It's starting new, but it's got the big title. If DPT programs required a BS in exercise science, athletic training, kinesiology, etc I would agree with you that it is superior. But (and not meant to be a shot at other degrees) a music major sets you up for DPT school?

This isn't meant to become a political argument, but it's something I'm obviously frustrated with. I currently work in a clinical setting as an athletic trainer. I have a co-worker who has a BS in Athletic Training and an MS in Athletic Training. She has a far superior education than a PTA and most PT's with regards to athletic rehab and an adequate education to deal with many orthopedic conditions. But she can only work as a "PT Tech" in the physical therapy clinic.

Let me also say while this bothers me, I have no real interest in working in a clinical setting. I intend to work in college or professional sports where we are actually valued..
If the APTA wants to stand by their "superior education" line, then they have a long way to go to get there.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

I've finally had it with the trashing of the DPT.

Face the facts. There is no profession out there that approaches PT when it comes to rehabilitation. Get over it. PT has the most research, and by far the best education, most competition for admittance into school, best track record, numerous brilliant PT's. The DPT is new, I understand that, so there will be people who get "butt hurt" because they didn't earn it, or don't believe in it, or don't know enough about it. Yes there is BSPT's and MSPT's that are better than DPT's. There are also DPT's that are better than BSPT's with 30 years of experience. In general, I would say that the clinician that works hardest and cares most about getting the patient better will have the best outcomes. Not BSPT>DPT because they have more experience. None of this means the DPT is not legitimate. I earned my degree. And had to work very hard to get it. The point is, the move to the DPT is to ensure PT's at least maintain their practice rights. It is because lame brains who have lesser education think they are on par. PTA's do practice PT, but under the supervision of a PT. And they are specially trained to do so. They don't learn athletic training and then proclaim they are just as good as a PT. Comparing ATC and kinesiotherapy to PT is laughable at best. No offense. Let me say this, I would never, EVER walk onto a football field thinking I know what a ATC knows, or argue that I'm at the same level as an ATC when it comes to what their education trains them to do. Because I'm not. And no profession is even close to PT when it comes to what they do. Just because it is not abstract (at times), and we do something so simple as work on walking, does not mean you can just think about it for 5 minutes and decide you're knowledgeable. So, people stop wasting everyone's time and reducing intelligence with your know nothing B.S. You are not a PT, GET OVER IT!

I graduated with my DPT in 2008, and had to work very hard to get it. The DPT is a move by the APTA precisely because of people out there who make arguments such as the one I'm arguing against right now. There is no respect. I would love to see an ATC or a kinesiotherapist do what I do, at the level that I do it, and work with patients as hard as I do. That would be something to see.

In the grand scheme of things, a DPT does not approach a practicing MD or DO. BUT, from the standpoint of rehabilitation with exercise, manual therapy, education, etc, No profession out there that touches PT, and never will. And by the way, I do not think I'm a doctor, and I don't want to be called one. I have worked with many many DPT's and haven't heard a single one call themselves doctor. What I want, is to be respected as a PT and have everyone stop thinking they know what a PT knows.

By the way, my undergrad degree was a B.S. in human biology and an emphasis in exercise science. This type of scenario is the norm. An unrelated degree is not common, and if it is the case those people still need to take a lot of classes to be considered. And then they need to justify all that to be admitted.

 

[atstudent]

I've finally had it with the trashing of the DPT.
An unrelated degree is not common, and if it is the case those people still need to take a lot of classes to be considered. And then they need to justify all that to be admitted.

Wow.. take a chill pill please. Oh, but you'll have to see a physician for the prescription

Maybe you should do some more reading here if you think an unrelated degree is "uncommon." Seems pretty common to me.

If the DPT builds on a previous education, great! But it's not a requirement to do so. And when a DPT program accepts an online Exercise Phys class....

 

[Fiveoboy11]

If I remember right 46 states in the US have direct access, meaning you do not have to see a physician prior to seeing a PT. The current issue is that the majority of insurances will not pay for PT unless a patient has a prescription for it. Honestly, I don't care about that personally. I think physicians should be the gatekeeper. They are the best at screening patients and deciding if they need PT. A PT can get by in doing so, and can recognize when a pt has a complaint not within the scope of PT if needed. Also, pt's many times need to hear the physician say they need something for them to do it. A patient is much more likely to be compliant in my opinion if a physician refers them versus if they show up on their own. The problem here though, is that many physicians, similar to yourself, think they have expertise in physical therapy, and can tell a physical therapist what to do, or what to focus on. It's comical. If a physician thinks a patient needs PT, they should refer them to a PT, with a medical diagnosis and any relevant info medically (such as contraindications), but should not in any circumstance state what should be done for PT, or how long (i.e. 3x/wk x 4wks). Hopefully the DPT push will remedy this pathetic problem.

As far as accepting students based on major. Do you really think you know more about this than I do? Maybe you should have some facts to base your commentary, instead of fabricating things in your intelligence lacking brain. Someone applying to PT school with a random degree is not the same as someone having a DPT with a degree in music. Sure there are people who apply with random bachelor's degrees. Keep in mind, as I said before, they need to fulfill specific requirements before matriculating. And it would be hard for such a person to be accepted because of a random degree, because there are lots of other students with applicable degrees competing for that spot. Because you heard of someone with a random degree on this post getting accepted, or your friend with a master's in athletic training said so, does not make it common. This is called anectdotal evidence. Meaning worthless.

Perhaps you should begin with some evidence before you make arguments because it seems like you just run your mouth without an actual basis. The vast majority of DPT's have Bachelor's degrees in a relevant field, this is another thing you will have to get over. Take it easy.

 

[johncronejr]

Wow.. take a chill pill please. Oh, but you'll have to see a physician for the prescription

Maybe you should do some more reading here if you think an unrelated degree is "uncommon." Seems pretty common to me.

If the DPT builds on a previous education, great! But it's not a requirement to do so. And when a DPT program accepts an online Exercise Phys class....

Not sure why the degree not building on itself matters. You do not need a specific degree to go to med school to become an M.D. Hell you don't need a bachelor's of any kind to get into some Veterinary schools.

As long as I don't end up losing out in my career to someone who only had to go to 4 years versus 7, I will be okay. It's not that I think PT's are superior, it's that I would be pissed and feel ripped off that I spent 7 years in school to do what I could have done in 4.🙂

 

[TheOx777]

The DPT bashing ultimately sounds like sour grapes. The underlying fact is that the APTA saw a need to transition to the DPT because the scope of practice and the research base for physical therapy is expanding rapidly. We are required to be experts and the absolute best in terms of knowledge of and rehabilitation of "movement dysfunction" related to an incessant amounts of pathologies. The people who argue that the degree isn't "building" on something are just asinine. To get into MD/DO school, you DO NOT have to major in biology/chemistry/physics/other science. The same is true for DC/DDS/DMD/DVM/PharmD. Most schools require the pre-requisites for that specific reason; to ensure that you all students applying(music, art, psychology, dance, and science students) have a strong fundamental background in the sciences.

You will not hear the argument from me that a DPT is better than a B.S. PT or M.S. PT, unless it is true. This argument has to be made on a case by case basis and is very subjective in the end any way! I see no problem whatsoever with a DPT graduate calling themselves "Doctor" so and so. They have just received a clinical doctorate in physical therapy/rehabilitation science. What do you call a professional in psychology who received a clinical doctorate in Psychology(PsyD.)? You call them "Dr Jane/John Doe." What do you call a person who receives their doctorate in Education? "You call them Dr. Jane/John Doe."

So for anybody who has "beef" with this, please grill it up and eat it because the DPT is an effort to ultimately improve the profession with more research, EBP, and increased clinical experiences. Moving on....nothing to see here! One can only dream😴

 

[atstudent]

Not sure why the degree not building on itself matters. You do not need a specific degree to go to med school to become an M.D. Hell you don't need a bachelor's of any kind to get into some Veterinary schools.

As long as I don't end up losing out in my career to someone who only had to go to 4 years versus 7, I will be okay. It's not that I think PT's are superior, it's that I would be pissed and feel ripped off that I spent 7 years in school to do what I could have done in 4.🙂

It matters because PT's like to use the statement that other professionals with a 4 year degree do not "have enough education" to do the same as a PT. But that statement is BS because if I have 4 years of education and have a Bachelors in a dedicated field then I can certainly have more education than one who may have a Doctorate degree but only has 3 years of dedicated education. How much sense does that make? And johncronejr, you already are getting ripped off. Your own professional organization allows for it to happen! A PTA only requires 2 years of school and can do most things that a PT can.

And I'm sorry FiveO that you missed the sarcasm..

 

[jesspt]

Here's my question for you though.. Why is a DPT superior to a 4-year Bachelors Degree in Kinesiotherapy or Athletic Training?

I suppose that one could argue that it is three years of graduate level training and education in physical therapy vs, roughly two years of education and training in another loosely related profession (once general requirements are out of the way).

I have a co-worker who has a BS in Athletic Training and an MS in Athletic Training. She has a far superior education than a PTA and most PT's with regards to athletic rehab and an adequate education to deal with many orthopedic conditions.

Yes, her education is likely more than adequate to deal with many ortho conditions. She is certainly better prepared than a PTA to practice independently in an outpatient ortho setting. I would argue that she may be better suited to treat a patient with an ortho condition than a new graduate PT , but frankly, i think that the clinical reasoning of most PTs who have experience in the outpatient ortho setting and have kept up with the most recent research exceeds that of most ATCs I have come into contact with.

When it comes to implementing interventions outside of strengthening, stretching, or the use of modalities, I think many ATCs fall short. A good, evidenced based practitioner of physical therapy is able to comfortably utilize a greater number of interventions during the rehabilitation of their patient, whether if be an injured athlete, a person who has suffered a stroke ,etc.

Five -

The point is, the move to the DPT is to ensure PT's at least maintain their practice rights

Let's hope not. I have previously posted an editorial by Jules Rothstien, Editor-in-Chief Emeritus of the PT Journal discussing the move to doctoral level education. It has nothing to do with practice rights, but rather the need to expand our level of education to better serve those patients who may benefit from our services.

Comparing ATC and kinesiotherapy to PT is laughable at best.

Why? Many of our potential clients associate ATC with rehab of injured athletes. Is their perception incorrect?

I would never, EVER walk onto a football field thinking I know what a ATC knows, or argue that I'm at the same level as an ATC when it comes to what their education trains them to do

Good point. The education of an ATC is far superior regarding the on-field assessment of an injury.

So, people stop wasting everyone's time and reducing intelligence with your know nothing B.S. You are not a PT, GET OVER IT!

Now you're just sounding angry and not really making a credible argument.

I think physicians should be the gatekeeper. They are the best at screening patients and deciding if they need PT.

If you really think this, you're a sad representation of our profession. While quite a few MDs/DOs, etc. are adequate at determining who may benefit from PT, there is certainly no one better at determining who will benefit than a PT who practices in an evidence based fashion.

And it would be hard for such a person to be accepted because of a random degree, because there are lots of other students with applicable degrees competing for that spot. Because you heard of someone with a random degree on this post getting accepted, or your friend with a master's in athletic training said so, does not make it common. This is called anectdotal evidence. Meaning worthless.

And the evidence you are supporting your argument with is what? Seems pretty anecdotal to me.

 

[johncronejr]

It matters because PT's like to use the statement that other professionals with a 4 year degree do not "have enough education" to do the same as a PT. But that statement is BS because if I have 4 years of education and have a Bachelors in a dedicated field then I can certainly have more education than one who may have a Doctorate degree but only has 3 years of dedicated education. How much sense does that make? And johncronejr, you already are getting ripped off. Your own professional organization allows for it to happen! A PTA only requires 2 years of school and can do most things that a PT can.

And I'm sorry FiveO that you missed the sarcasm..

You did not get 4 years of training in a dedicated field by getting your bachelors in Athletic Training. It's okay to tell "fish stories", but you do need to make sure that they are either believable or that you are telling the story to folks who don't know any better.

 

[Coach Hoski]

It matters because PT's like to use the statement that other professionals with a 4 year degree do not "have enough education" to do the same as a PT. But that statement is BS because if I have 4 years of education and have a Bachelors in a dedicated field then I can certainly have more education than one who may have a Doctorate degree but only has 3 years of dedicated education. How much sense does that make? And johncronejr, you already are getting ripped off. Your own professional organization allows for it to happen! A PTA only requires 2 years of school and can do most things that a PT can.

And I'm sorry FiveO that you missed the sarcasm..

I think it's an unfair comparison to liken a 4 year entry level bachelor's degree to any higher level professional degree, namely DPT but for argument's sake throw in MSAT, M.D., or PharmD, as well.
I'm a second year DPT student and already have 11 credits of doctorate-level physiology, 11 credits of anatomy/neuroanatomy, and countless hours of clinical exposure which will only increase. I'm not saying that to pat myself on the back, but rather to prove a point; the curriculum in those classes were based on the fact that every student in the program has already taken 30+ credits of prerequisite coursework AND satisfied general B.S. degree requirements, almost all of which have little or nothing at all to do with their ultimate career.
You cannot expect anyone earning a bachelor's degree to have fundamental professional knowledge going in to build upon, while you absolutely can with an advanced degree. The quality of incoming students is not sufficiently screened in that situation as is with graduate degrees. Therefore saying that knowledge learned in 3-4 "program specific" years is equal no matter the level of the degree is an argument that holds no ground.
Yes, I understand that a B.S. is where PT started, but thankfully we have advanced our field from there based on the changing needs of our patient population and our scope of practice. It is absolutely a regression for any profession imitating/posing as our own to return to that level.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

JessPT,

Just to clarify, you want me to provide evidence that the majority of DPT programs have students with a bachelor's degree in a relevant field? I'm confident there is evidence to support my statement, but I won't provide the evidence that is obvious to anyone who's been through PT school and has been practicing.

I feel like I represent the profession of PT very well in the real world, just not the greatest at getting my point of view onto a message board. Perhaps you should consider that we just differ in opinions. Let me clarify. I was stating that a physician is best at differential diagnosis. Once they determine a patient's complaint could be amenable to PT, they should refer. From there, the PT should still definitely decide if the person needs PT, and do a differential diagnosis check themselves. But, a physician still has the most knowledge overall of medical and health complaints and should refer out, IN MY OPINION. But, maybe I'm wrong. If PT's were thought of as specialists, and not a physician's little helper, it may remedy a lot of the problems faced. PT's and Physicians need to continue to work together, and a referral type of system promotes that. At the same time, there is problems with it, as mentioned before.

1000 times sorry to anyone offended by my comments. Very hard to tolerate all the negativity surrounding the DPT because of my hard work and nearly getting straight A's in undergrad and PT school, not to mention all my effort in getting patient's better.

 

[jesspt]

Five -

Just to clarify, you want me to provide evidence that the majority of DPT programs have students with a bachelor's degree in a relevant field? I'm confident there is evidence to support my statement, but I won't provide the evidence that is obvious to anyone who's been through PT school and has been practicing.

Not really. My point was that if you are taking issue with someone who is supporting their point of view with anecdotal evidence, it might lend some more credibility to your argument if you provide something other than anecdotal evidence yourself.

I was stating that a physician is best at differential diagnosis.

No argument here.

Once they determine a patient's complaint could be amenable to PT, they should refer.

And how well do you think that they identify those patients who may benefit from physical therapy?

Very hard to tolerate all the negativity surrounding the DPT because of my hard work and nearly getting straight A's in undergrad and PT school, not to mention all my effort in getting patient's better.

Remember, you are a representation of your degree and people whom you interact with, even on message boards, will judge the degree based on those interactions.

Kudos to you on your academic achievement. Hopefully you remain commited to lifelong learning and are continuing to peruse the relavant literature.

 

[lastnerve]

to comment on the issue listed from the OP, i would just like to say that i think this kinesiotherapy degree is awesome!!! i think if it were offered at my university i would have definitely pursued it. i ultimately want to become a PT, and i think majoring in kinesiotherapy during undergrad would have given me more hands-on experience with the profession. i don't understand why it's a bad idea. it seems like those with this degree would gain more knowledge and experience than PTAs, but still have to practice under the supervision of a licensed PT (just like a PTA).

 

[exrx]

I think Coach Hoski's main concern is that they are repeatedly trying to become licensed. After looking http://www.caahep.org/Content.aspx?ID=42 at the website it doesn't sound any different from PTs or even OTs with driver and psychiatric scope. That would directly conflict with reimbursement from already existing/licensed practitioners. Why would any PT/OT allow that?

 

[kcrat21]

So are you saying that those of us who have a degree in an unrelated field and have worked our butts off to complete our prerequisites with straight A's as well as get the neccessary observation hours (and then some) are...wasting our time?

 

[Coach Hoski]

So are you saying that those of us who have a degree in an unrelated field and have worked our butts off to complete our prerequisites with straight A's as well as get the neccessary observation hours (and then some) are...wasting our time?

kcrat,
That would have been the concern, but thanks to all the people who contacted their legislators regarding this issue, the measure was voted down last week in VA state senate, 26-14.
Kinesiotherapists will NOT be licensed in the state of Virginia or any state at this time, and PTs, the movement dysfunction specialists will remain the primary providers for our scope of practice.
Well done, friends!

Coach Hoski, SPT

 

[kcrat21]

sorry, i was referring to fiveo's comment that those of us with unrelated degrees aren't going to get into pt school.

 

[Fiveoboy11]

No, I'm not saying that at all, if you worked your butt off to get good grades for PT school then you should get in and I hope you do. What I was saying before is that I thought the majority of PT students/graduates from an MS or doctorate program had a bachelor's degree in a relevant field.

 

[watersgoneby]

No, I'm not saying that at all, if you worked your butt off to get good grades for PT school then you should get in and I hope you do. What I was saying before is that I thought the majority of PT students/graduates from an MS or doctorate program had a bachelor's degree in a relevant field.

If we took a poll here, I think the results may show something very different. Judging from all the "PT as a second career" threads floating around.

 

[mtm34]

For whatever its worth my DPT class is comprised of many majors but most (~80%) are in AT, rehab science, ex science, ect.

 

[PTapp]

If we took a poll here, I think the results may show something very different. Judging from all the "PT as a second career" threads floating around.

Here, maybe... But in PT school, you will see that 90-95% of students graduated with an Exercise Science or something similar. The reason you see a lot of members on these boards who have irrelevant degrees is because they need more help than the others when it comes to prereqs, and admission requirements.

 

[MuscleHead]

do you people realize that you can major in anything and basically go onto any professional degree? you can major in architecture and go to medical school.

theres a reason prerequisites exist for PT school. in fact, if you have a strong liberal arts background coupled with competitive grades in the science prerequisites...youre probably more prepared than most.

i majored in history and am in my 2nd semester in PT school. theres not an "exercise science major" in my class who is more prepared than i am because of that background.

Here, maybe... But in PT school, you will see that 90-95% of students graduated with an Exercise Science or something similar. The reason you see a lot of members on these boards who have irrelevant degrees is because they need more help than the others when it comes to prereqs, and admission requirements.

 

[PTapp]

do you people realize that you can major in anything and basically go onto any professional degree? you can major in architecture and go to medical school.

theres a reason prerequisites exist for PT school. in fact, if you have a strong liberal arts background coupled with competitive grades in the science prerequisites...youre probably more prepared than most.

i majored in history and am in my 2nd semester in PT school. theres not an "exercise science major" in my class who is more prepared than i am because of that background.

I agree with you. I wasn't trying to bash students with irrelevant degrees. On the contrary, I have found them very well prepared and well rounded. A close friend of mine with a business degree has a 3.9 average and he's about to graduate in may.