Improving GPAs (ADCOMs help again please)

[Tipp]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hey All,

I posted a while back about what to do if I don't get in this year, and many of you recommended taking some upper lever science courses as opposed to risking it all on an SMP at Toledo...

If I were to just take some science courses, how does that work.. I can't get loans if I am not full-time, right? Also, an adviser once told me that my school doesn't allow students to do informal post-baccs (we have to be working towards a degree.)

If I can, though, how many courses should I take to adequately show I can handle tough science courses? Should I take a full course load so that it doesn't look like I only did well because I was only taking a single course? Should I just choose some of the upper level science electives that I chose not to take in undergrad, or are there some particular courses that look really good?

I would still have to work full-time in this scenario...

Thanks for any feedback.

 

[Tipp]

Just to be clear, non-Adcom members can weigh in on this one too lol thanks

 

[kyamh]

You could take night classes while working. Check around with local universities (not necessarily your alma mater), often they have classes that part time students can take. Everything depends on your finances. If you are working a full time job, you can probably afford the $1-5k you would need to take 1-2 night classes for a semester at a local school. If money is really tight, community college classes (though not ideal, CCs are good options since many schools understand financial burdens associated with being out of school) are a good option. My local CC has online classes and lecture/lab classes for just $200-600 a semester each.

 

[knv2u]

Hey All,

I posted a while back about what to do if I don't get in this year, and many of you recommended taking some upper lever science courses as opposed to risking it all on an SMP at Toledo...

If I were to just take some science courses, how does that work.. I can't get loans if I am not full-time, right? Also, an adviser once told me that my school doesn't allow students to do informal post-baccs (we have to be working towards a degree.)

If I can, though, how many courses should I take to adequately show I can handle tough science courses? Should I take a full course load so that it doesn't look like I only did well because I was only taking a single course? Should I just choose some of the upper level science electives that I chose not to take in undergrad, or are there some particular courses that look really good?

I would still have to work full-time in this scenario...

Thanks for any feedback.

You are eligible for federal Direct Loans if you are enrolled at least half time in an appropriate degree granting program. I'm not sure how this works with a formal post bacc, but I do know someone that completed a second bachelor's degree and was eligible for federal financial aid. If you go this route (informal post bacc by second bachelor's degree), just be mindful that aid is much more limited. I think you are pretty much limited to Stafford Loans and the cap for independent students is $12,500 per year.

Edited: And if you don't want to complete an entire degree, apply to a degree granting program (i.e. financial aid eligible program) and drop out.

 

[Tipp]

Yea I might have to look into another university... I would do CC, except I already did two years there before transferring to a university, so there are literally only like 1 or 2 science courses that I haven't taken there, and they are really only sophomore-level lol so that wouldn't help me too much...

 

[Tipp]

You are eligible for federal Direct Loans if you are enrolled at least half time in an appropriate degree granting program. I'm not sure how this works with a formal post bacc, but I do know someone that completed a second bachelor's degree and was eligible for federal financial aid. If you go this route (informal post bacc by second bachelor's degree), just be mindful that aid is much more limited. I think you are pretty much limited to Stafford Loans and the cap for independent students is $12,500 per year.

Edited: And if you don't want to complete an entire degree, apply to a degree granting program (i.e. financial aid eligible program) and drop out.

Thanks for the help... So as far as a second bachelor's degree, I would just use the courses that I took already as my general ed/electives, and fill the gaps with the required courses of the new degree? So for instance, I was biochem, but I could take the required courses for Neuroscience and the rest would be covered by my previous undergrad coursework?

 

[Tipp]

Also, how does this option stack up against one year master's programs which are NOT SMPs, and do not include classes with med students? Would something like that be a better option, because it is going towards a degree, and is full-time, without the same level of risk associated with taking med school classes?

 

[knv2u]

Also, how does this option stack up against one year master's programs which are NOT SMPs, and do not include classes with med students? Would something like that be a better option, because it is going towards a degree, and is full-time, without the same level of risk associated with taking med school classes?

I would say that it is unlikely to be as beneficial. Classes taken as part of a master's degree program will count towards your graduate GPA and won't do anything to help your undergraduate GPA, which adcoms focus on. Most graduate level courses are known for liberal grading, so a high GPA won't mean as much although a poor one will help to weed you out of the applicant pool if you do poorly. SMPs are also risky, since the curriculum is pretty much the first year of medical school. If you do poorly in a SMP, it is absolutely game over.

 

[Catalystik]

I posted a while back about what to do if I don't get in this year, and many of you recommended taking some upper lever science courses as opposed to risking it all on an SMP at Toledo...

If I were to just take some science courses, how does that work.. I can't get loans if I am not full-time, right? Also, an adviser once told me that my school doesn't allow students to do informal post-baccs (we have to be working towards a degree.)

If I can, though, how many courses should I take to adequately show I can handle tough science courses? Should I take a full course load so that it doesn't look like I only did well because I was only taking a single course? Should I just choose some of the upper level science electives that I chose not to take in undergrad, or are there some particular courses that look really good?

I would still have to work full-time in this scenario...

If your purpose in doing informal postbac work is to prove you can get As in upper-level Bio so you are sure you're a good candidate for the Toledo program, then taking two classes per term might do the trick.

If you want the informal postbac to substitute for the Toledo program, then you'd ideally have 30+ semester hours of excellent grades. If you attend full-time, you'll be ready to apply sooner.

Regardless, becoming a candidate for a second degree would give you registration priority compared to an Ad Hoc student. You would not be expected to finish the second degree.

Classes that "look good" would be Physiology, Cell Bio, Genetics, Immunology, Neurology, Virology, Histology, Embryology, Endocrinology, Anatomy, Biochem, Statistics.

 

[Catalystik]

I would say that it is unlikely to be as beneficial. Classes taken as part of a master's degree program will count towards your graduate GPA and won't do anything to help your undergraduate GPA, which adcoms focus on. Most graduate level courses are known for liberal grading, so a high GPA won't mean as much although a poor one will help to weed you out of the applicant pool if you do poorly.

In general, I agree. There are a limited number of med schools that will give traditional hard science masters GPA much attention. But there are some.

 

[Tipp]

If your purpose in doing informal postbac work is to prove you can get As in upper-level Bio so you are sure you're a good candidate for the Toledo program, then taking two classes per term might do the trick.

If you want the informal postbac to substitute for the Toledo program, then you'd ideally have 30+ semester hours of excellent grades. If you attend full-time, you'll be ready to apply sooner.

Regardless, becoming a candidate for a second degree would give you registration priority compared to an Ad Hoc student. You would not be expected to finish the second degree.

Classes that "look good" would be Physiology, Cell Bio, Genetics, Immunology, Neurology, Virology, Histology, Embryology, Endocrinology, Anatomy, Biochem, Statistics.

In general, I agree. There are a limited number of med schools that will give traditional hard science masters GPA much attention. But there are some.

Yea, I am really comparing the two options, so the informal post-bacc would be a substitute for the SMP if I went that route (I am already a pretty good candidate for the SMP, according to their admission statistics, if I went that route.)

Are you saying that going towards a second bachelor's degree would be the best way to go, since I would be a candidate for a second degree? Would those classes add to my undergraduate GPA, then?

Can I ask, why are traditional hard science master's programs not given much attention? The one I am considering is Molecular and Integrative Physiology at Michigan. Would that fall into the category of one that is given some attention?

 

[Goro]

It depends upon the program. A purely research-based masters, with courses like "DNA Methods" or Seminars in Neuroscience" aren't going to be as helpful to us in gauging whether you can handle a medical school load. Coursework like Aantomy, physiology, neuroscience, pharmacology, edipedmiology...that's helpful!

Are you willing to relocate to find a post-bac college or program?

You keep talking about risk...at some point, isn't it better to be in a program that mimics medical school and spend, say, $20K, than to enter medical school, spend $50-60K, and find out that you can't hack it? You have to roll the dice at some point.

Also, how does this option stack up against one year master's programs which are NOT SMPs, and do not include classes with med students? Would something like that be a better option, because it is going towards a degree, and is full-time, without the same level of risk associated with taking med school classes?

 

[Tipp]

It depends upon the program. A purely research-based masters, with courses like "DNA Methods" or Seminars in Neuroscience" aren't going to be as helpful to us in gauging whether you can handle a medical school load. Coursework like Aantomy, physiology, neuroscience, pharmacology, edipedmiology...that's helpful!

Are you willing to relocate to find a post-bac college or program?

You keep talking about risk...at some point, isn't it better to be in a program that mimics medical school and spend, say, $20K, than to enter medical school, spend $50-60K, and find out that you can't hack it? You have to roll the dice at some point.

The UM physiology master's has two tracks, one research-based for people planning to pursue jobs in industry and so forth, and a coursework-based option for people planning to go to medical school or dental school.

I am keeping all options on the table... The reason I prefer the Toledo program is because of the strong linkages and my fiancee works in Toledo. I am getting married in May, and I would prefer not to have to uproot her from work and family if I don't have to. Otherwise I would go anywhere in the world in a heartbeat lol but I would consider moving too; it's just not my first choice given the circumstances.

Regarding risk, I really think that I can make it in an SMP, and I don't think my undergrad GPAs are indicative of my abilities (for various reasons)... I only started thinking about the risk when all of the SDNers mentioned it in my last post haha

 

[Goro]

If U of Toledo's SMP is linked to the medical school, then there is yoru back door into medical school. Even with out it, if you do well there, and ace the MCAT, then it's highly likley you'll be looking at a bunch of IIs. What ar eyou waiting for?

The UM physiology master's has two tracks, one research-based for people planning to pursue jobs in industry and so forth, and a coursework-based option for people planning to go to medical school or dental school.

I am keeping all options on the table... The reason I prefer the Toledo program is because of the strong linkages and my fiancee works in Toledo. I am getting married in May, and I would prefer not to have to uproot her from work and family if I don't have to. Otherwise I would go anywhere in the world in a heartbeat lol but I would consider moving too; it's just not my first choice given the circumstances.

Regarding risk, I really think that I can make it in an SMP, and I don't think my undergrad GPAs are indicative of my abilities (for various reasons)... I only started thinking about the risk when all of the SDNers mentioned it in my last post haha

 

[Catalystik]

Yea, I am really comparing the two options, so the informal post-bacc would be a substitute for the SMP if I went that route (I am already a pretty good candidate for the SMP, according to their admission statistics, if I went that route.)

1) Are you saying that going towards a second bachelor's degree would be the best way to go, since I would be a candidate for a second degree?
2) Would those classes add to my undergraduate GPA, then?

3) Can I ask, why are traditional hard science master's programs not given much attention?
4) The one I am considering is Molecular and Integrative Physiology at Michigan. Would that fall into the category of one that is given some attention?

1) Yes. And because loan candidacy is more likely.

2) Yes, they'd be included in your cumulative undergrad GPAs. You might for fun figure out what your GPAs would be with 30 credits of 4.0.

3) Widely assumed grade inflation and the fact that most candidates don't have similar masters work. One doesn't want to compare tangerines to tangelos (a hybrid). Taking other factors into account besides grades, a masters can be of benefit to an application due to the research and/or teaching responsibilities that come along with a funded program (that pays you a stipend).

4) Whether a traditional masters is considered is based on institutional policy, generally. I can't comment on how that particular program is viewed by the med schools in your home state. The Postbac Discussions Forum might be a better place to Search or ask.

 

[Tipp]

1) Yes. And because loan candidacy is more likely.

2) Yes, they'd be included in your cumulative undergrad GPAs. You might for fun figure out what your GPAs would be with 30 credits of 4.0.

3) Widely assumed grade inflation and the fact that most candidates don't have similar masters work. One doesn't want to compare tangerines to tangelos (a hybrid). Taking other factors into account besides grades, a masters can be of benefit to an application due to the research and/or teaching responsibilities that come along with a funded program (that pays you a stipend).

4) Whether a traditional masters is considered is based on institutional policy, generally. I can't comment on how that particular program is viewed by the med schools in your home state. The Postbac Discussions Forum might be a better place to Search or ask.

I didn't realize that there are funded master's programs with stipends.... Where can I find information on these? That could really be a great option for me...

If U of Toledo's SMP is linked to the medical school, then there is yoru back door into medical school. Even with out it, if you do well there, and ace the MCAT, then it's highly likley you'll be looking at a bunch of IIs. What ar eyou waiting for?

Toledo's SMP is linked pretty strongly in my opinion; 65% are accepted to UT, historically, and 85% were accepted a few years ago... They don't report on whether students got into other programs, so that is just to UT.

I've taken the MCAT and got a 32. Not exactly acing it, but I won't re-take it again.

I'm not really sure what I am waiting for lol.... It's partially just wanting to get advice about all my options from everybody here. Then there's also the fact that if I pursue an SMP, then I won't be able to work and contribute any income, which will kinda suck as a newlywed just starting out. Then again, as soon as I get into med school I will be in that boat anyway.

 

[Goro]

Goro suggests that the Toledo program is for you. Good luck!


Toledo's SMP is linked pretty strongly in my opinion; 65% are accepted to UT, historically, and 85% were accepted a few years ago... They don't report on whether students got into other programs, so that is just to UT.

I've taken the MCAT and got a 32. Not exactly acing it, but I won't re-take it again.

I'm not really sure what I am waiting for lol.... It's partially just wanting to get advice about all my options from everybody here. Then there's also the fact that if I pursue an SMP, then I won't be able to work and contribute any income, which will kinda suck as a newlywed just starting out. Then again, as soon as I get into med school I will be in that boat anyway.[/quote]

 

[Tipp]

Goro suggests that the Toledo program is for you. Good luck!


Toledo's SMP is linked pretty strongly in my opinion; 65% are accepted to UT, historically, and 85% were accepted a few years ago... They don't report on whether students got into other programs, so that is just to UT.

I've taken the MCAT and got a 32. Not exactly acing it, but I won't re-take it again.

I'm not really sure what I am waiting for lol.... It's partially just wanting to get advice about all my options from everybody here. Then there's also the fact that if I pursue an SMP, then I won't be able to work and contribute any income, which will kinda suck as a newlywed just starting out. Then again, as soon as I get into med school I will be in that boat anyway.

[/quote]

Thanks a lot for the advice!

 

[Catalystik]

I didn't realize that there are funded master's programs with stipends.... Where can I find information on these? That could really be a great option for me...

At UMichigan: If accepted into the Masters program will I be funded?The department does not fund any of the Master's students. Master's students can apply for graduate student instructor (GSI) positions through the Program in Biology, but they are not guaranteed of being offered a position. https://www.lsa.umich.edu/mcdb/graduate/mastersprogram

You can Search on your own at local universities for programs in science fields that entice you, for further ideas.

 

[Tipp]

At UMichigan: If accepted into the Masters program will I be funded?The department does not fund any of the Master's students. Master's students can apply for graduate student instructor (GSI) positions through the Program in Biology, but they are not guaranteed of being offered a position. https://www.lsa.umich.edu/mcdb/graduate/mastersprogram

You can Search on your own at local universities for programs in science fields that entice you, for further ideas.

Thank you... I will check into it.

 

[pasdebourree]

@gonnif THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting this diagram, I'm not sure how I've never seen it before but it is so helpful. I'm in a similar position as OP and this made my decision much more clear.

OP, just wanted to say that I feel for you because I'm in almost the exact same situation...trying to figure out how to work full time and pay to go to class to raise my GPA, and worrying about the risk of taking on too much. Navigating the scenarios and hypotheticals and financials can be completely overwhelming. Here's hoping that you get in this year, and if not, that your careful planning will pay off next year and beyond--I wish you the best of luck!

 

[Tipp]

To understand how this would look/add into your GPA, it is good to get a visualize of how the schools will see it, sort of. ANY undergraduate classes that you take AFTER you have earned your FIRST bachelors, will be both noted as part of your cumulative UG GPAs and as a separate line item if PBU (Post Bacc Undergraduate). It does NOT matter if these are taken as DIY/Informal, formal postbacc, towards a second degree, or any other circumstance. The advantage to most students in doing this it gives them a place to shine a little as improvement.

View attachment 179394

Thanks! I didn't realize that it would count towards both categories...

@gonnif THANK YOU SO MUCH for posting this diagram, I'm not sure how I've never seen it before but it is so helpful. I'm in a similar position as OP and this made my decision much more clear.

OP, just wanted to say that I feel for you because I'm in almost the exact same situation...trying to figure out how to work full time and pay to go to class to raise my GPA, and worrying about the risk of taking on too much. Navigating the scenarios and hypotheticals and financials can be completely overwhelming. Here's hoping that you get in this year, and if not, that your careful planning will pay off next year and beyond--I wish you the best of luck!

Good luck to you, too!