In a serious dilemme, and need some insight.

[coffeenut0]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hello! I have a problem and hopefully you guys can offer some insight.

I'm a high school senior, and was applying overseas to Pakistan for medical school right after high school. Needless to say, there was a lot of cultural/family pressure pushing me to do this.

Lately, I've been thinking a lot and I'm not so sure I want to do this. For one, I'm unsure whether I will be able to adapt to the social and academic atmosphere over there, which is wayyy different than that of the states, where I've lived my entire life. Also, I'm not even sure whether I want to do medicine or not. If i were to go over there, there is no way i can explore other career options.

Here are the pros of me going there-

1) the only school I am applying to is army-based. I wont be joining them as an army cadet, but it is the safest place over there in the entire country.

2) In four and a half years, I'll have my medical degree.

3) I have 2 brothers currently in their final years of residency in teaching hospitals, so it is more than likely that putting myself in the system wont be as difficult as it would be for a typical IMG- connections and all that.

4) I will have a secure job and will be financially set.

Cons-

1) I'll be stuck in a foreign country away from home.

2) Academics. I know they're REALLY tough over there compared to here, and i don't know how well I'll be able to adapt.

3) To be honest, i am not super passionate about medicine. I'm a very liberal-artsy english-major type person. I'm taking AP Bio in HS right now, but the course is very focused on things like evolution and plants and ****, so it's not very good for getting a flavor for how medicine is.

4) The whole undergrad experience is something my friends keep telling me i need to have. I have friends in college that are ridiculously happy where they are, and doing what they want, and i will most probably not have that over there.

At the same time, i do realize the merits of being financially secure with a job in medicine. My parents (my mother is a doctor) came from a very poor background so they're placing a HUGE emphasis on the money factor. I told them yesterday about wanting to apply in the US to colleges with rolling admissions, and they are FUMING right now.

Any advice? Sorry for the wall of text, but I am extremely confused right now and don't know what to do 🙁

thank you! <3

 

[Hillo]

I think you could be financially secure even if you delay med school and/or go the American route.

The truth is that we WON'T be as broke as those unfortunate people out there (money should not be an issue unless you're somehow independent and have low credit/ super in-debt).

Of course, I'd personally rather practice in the US (because I've developed an inner loathing of my family's culture) as well as disobey my parents (because of their poor reasons for feeling furious).

It's your life.

I moved out of my parents' place and have been paying out of my own pocket for rent because I KNEW my life would be BETTER.

When we become adults, we can take out loans for goodness' sake.

Why not invest in yourself?

I would ask myself if my time and effort is truly worth that little.

On the inside, I think it's silly how it's not YOU who has had the broke background, yet you feel obliged to fork over so many of your prime years so that... your parents will stop yelling at you?

Please tell me what you're thinking.

By the way, I think it's wonderful you enjoy English.
Growing up, I've struggled a lot with my English classes, and now I'll be spending most of my time in college working on creative writing, poetry slamming, literature, play-writing, and speaking (apparently I'm still shy) because I'm simply that confident that doing those activities will give me a mentality I've always craved.

 

[Hillo]

"..if I weren't so accommodating to my parents, they would most likely have serious issues."

I'd say this is BS because even my traditional parents (who have always rejected change ever since they moved to the US) survived through a period of "instability" (I don't know how to describe it) after I explained my grievances and took action.

Your parents will probably be alright because they're most likely younger than my parents (86 and 63). And they should know it's not because you don't love them, so they better get over it.

I'm telling you - you will NOT go for a B.A. in anything once you enter med school.
This should have been obvious.

For some reason, people automatically reject this idea, but... there's nothing wrong with starting out at community college and then transferring to whatever university you believe is decent enough for you.

 

[Hillo]

I'm telling you - you will NOT go for a B.A. in anything once you enter med school.
This should have been obvious.

Ask residents in those fields about residency.
It is possible to not start practicing after residency, but... sometimes the debt persuades you otherwise.
Most importantly, med school can really beat a lot of the creative juices out of you.

 

[Medstart108]

i wont have to worry about debt if i go overseas, its cheap enough that we can pay the whole thing out of pocket....

how badly does it beat it out of you?

Hey coffeenut. It seems like you are in a difficult situation. Don't antagonize your parents, life is a lot easier if your relationship with your parents is good.

Medicine is similar to AP biology in the sense that you will be memorizing things. Just like you will be memorizing evolution, plant reproduction, kreb cycle and glycolysis you will be doing the same in medicine except the topics are different (in fact, you will definitely learn kreb and glycolysis again but probably covered in one lecture).

If you don't like memorizing a lot and regurgitating the information (many don't) then you have to like the idea of working as a doctor. Doctors work long hours 80 hours a week during residency, 50-60 as a hospital doctor, more variable if you work in private practice (i.e. you can easily work a normal 40 hour week or less if you wanted to). Its a high stress job and will take a toll on you.

I understand somewhat your situation. My parents were really against me going into humanities like history in high school (I loved history but i knew there was no career at the end of it and I was more into memorizing than the essay writing part so i knew that becoming a history professor wasn't an option) I ended up going straight into medicine after high school and am currently in year 1

The truth is, if you get a MBBS in Pakistan there is no way you will be doing a BA in the US afterwards. After your MBBS you will have a very difficult time (even with connections and unless you have very strong connections i.e. your father is a academic physician, it still won't be easy). There are fewer residency spots every year compared to US medical graduates so you will have it tougher than your brothers to find a residency.

You won't be able to do a 4 year BA after your MBBS because no residency will want you after 4 years of studying english (your medical knowledge will atrophy)

If you think you will be able to pursue your passion with a BA after MBBS you are wrong. If you really want to do a BA you need to do it now. I really recommend doing a BA in the US and applying to US medical schools. You are really the perfect candidate for doing a BA. You love liberal arts, you are not sure about medicine. This is different from me. I liked history, but wasn't good at essays, and i really liked medicine.

You need to reason with your parents. They might really just want you to be a doctor, tell them you will become one in the US. You are right about the academic difficulty. Pakistan is a very competitive country, you will be seen as a "dumb rich expat who bought his way into medical school" and treated like a charity case. The rules are much more strict and the students are used to studying 8 hours a day.

You need to try and convince your parents to go to college in the US. You don't need to do a BA, you can enter as a different major and switch. Try and convince your parents you really do want to become a doctor, but you also want to learn more. Also tell them how difficult it is to apply back. You will need to write 3 exams that each last 8 hours. To prepare for those exams you will need to study for months prior. You will need to study hard for each of them because US graduates are always given priority. In Pakistan (which follows the UK system), you will enter immediately as a medical student and won't be given the opportunity to switch out.

 

[coffeenut0]

Hey coffeenut. It seems like you are in a difficult situation. Don't antagonize your parents, life is a lot easier if your relationship with your parents is good.

Medicine is similar to AP biology in the sense that you will be memorizing things. Just like you will be memorizing evolution, plant reproduction, kreb cycle and glycolysis you will be doing the same in medicine except the topics are different (in fact, you will definitely learn kreb and glycolysis again but probably covered in one lecture).

If you don't like memorizing a lot and regurgitating the information (many don't) then you have to like the idea of working as a doctor. Doctors work long hours 80 hours a week during residency, 50-60 as a hospital doctor, more variable if you work in private practice (i.e. you can easily work a normal 40 hour week or less if you wanted to). Its a high stress job and will take a toll on you.

I understand somewhat your situation. My parents were really against me going into humanities like history in high school (I loved history but i knew there was no career at the end of it and I was more into memorizing than the essay writing part so i knew that becoming a history professor wasn't an option) I ended up going straight into medicine after high school and am currently in year 1

The truth is, if you get a MBBS in Pakistan there is no way you will be doing a BA in the US afterwards. After your MBBS you will have a very difficult time (even with connections and unless you have very strong connections i.e. your father is a academic physician, it still won't be easy). There are fewer residency spots every year compared to US medical graduates so you will have it tougher than your brothers to find a residency.

You won't be able to do a 4 year BA after your MBBS because no residency will want you after 4 years of studying english (your medical knowledge will atrophy)

If you think you will be able to pursue your passion with a BA after MBBS you are wrong. If you really want to do a BA you need to do it now. I really recommend doing a BA in the US and applying to US medical schools. You are really the perfect candidate for doing a BA. You love liberal arts, you are not sure about medicine. This is different from me. I liked history, but wasn't good at essays, and i really liked medicine.

You need to reason with your parents. They might really just want you to be a doctor, tell them you will become one in the US. You are right about the academic difficulty. Pakistan is a very competitive country, you will be seen as a "dumb rich expat who bought his way into medical school" and treated like a charity case. The rules are much more strict and the students are used to studying 8 hours a day.

You need to try and convince your parents to go to college in the US. You don't need to do a BA, you can enter as a different major and switch. Try and convince your parents you really do want to become a doctor, but you also want to learn more. Also tell them how difficult it is to apply back. You will need to write 3 exams that each last 8 hours. To prepare for those exams you will need to study for months prior. You will need to study hard for each of them because US graduates are always given priority. In Pakistan (which follows the UK system), you will enter immediately as a medical student and won't be given the opportunity to switch out.

thank you so much for your response. It's greatly appreciated 🙂


as far as the BA goes, do you think it would be possible to do it during or after residency? I already know i'm most likely going into one of the more chill specialties (family practice, psych, IM, etc.) because there is no way i can deal with the lifestyle of a doctor such as a surgeon.

My parents are very unlikely to budge at this point. They have said that they really want me to try going there for 6months/1year and see how I like it, and they are willing to bring me back afterwards.

 

[sonofva]

i would say that if you leave the US for medical school, don't plan on returning to work as a doctor. there's big plans in the works now that are pushing to combine MD/DO residencies and box out international grads...

as in, you won't be able to get a residency in anything in the US coming from and international institution...

 

[coffeenut0]

i would say that if you leave the US for medical school, don't plan on returning to work as a doctor. there's big plans in the works now that are pushing to combine MD/DO residencies and box out international grads...

as in, you won't be able to get a residency in anything in the US coming from and international institution...

ive looked at stats, and this is highly improbable, as the number of positions opening each year is greater than the number of medical grads. The number HAS to be filled with IMGs.

 

[astevens7911]

ive looked at stats, and this is highly improbable, as the number of positions opening each year is greater than the number of medical grads. The number HAS to be filled with IMGs.

A lot of this is changing with Obamacare and the affordable care act. The number of US medical students is increasing each year while the number of residencies are staying the same. It will definitely be much harder for an IMG to get a US residency in 5 years than it is now.

 

[Medstart108]

thank you so much for your response. It's greatly appreciated 🙂


as far as the BA goes, do you think it would be possible to do it during or after residency? I already know i'm most likely going into one of the more chill specialties (family practice, psych, IM, etc.) because there is no way i can deal with the lifestyle of a doctor such as a surgeon.

My parents are very unlikely to budge at this point. They have said that they really want me to try going there for 6months/1year and see how I like it, and they are willing to bring me back afterwards.

It is definitely possible to do a BA after residency, but not during residency. Residency is sort of like on the job training. It really is an education that also happens to pay you very little and make you work long hours. However, realistically, you probably won't be doing a BA after residency. A BA is 4 years long and lets assume you do FM or IM. Your earning potential would be 200k US dollars a year. You will be maybe 28-30 after residency. You will be settling down and idk if your parents are paying tuition but you might have debt. You will literally be turning down 800k pre-tax income to study a BA (that will also cost you money) that realistically will do absolutely nothing for you career wise. Its probably better for you to maybe do some university courses, online courses, or just self-learning.

It is very important that you are interested in a more chill specialty. This will make it possible for you to return to the US assuming you still do well in medical school.

It is also good that your parents are willing to allow you try 6 months to 1 year. If you really find you don't like it, you can't handle it, come back. I don't know how much dropping out of MBBS school will hurt you when applying to US schools, but at most it will set you back 1 to 2 years. Also keep in mind that doing a BA in English in no way disadvantages you for applying to medicine (if you need to use this to tell your parents). Medical schools really like humanities majors these days.

Finally, if you do decide to go overseas for medicine. Treat it like you are in college competing for entry to medical school. There is no such thing as a short cut into medicine. There will always be a cut-off point where they reject the undesirables. For IMGs its residency, for US citizens its Medical School acceptance. Don't go around thinking you are "in medical school and set for life". Treat it like you need a 4.0 GPA and to get those ECs etc etc.

The numbers you read now in NRMP match stats don't tell you the true story. Search up all the new medical schools opening up in the US. There are at least 12 right now and more in consideration. Current medical schools are increasing enrollment. The American Medical Association predicted that by 2015/16 there will be equal numbers of American grads to residency spots. (I think the situation is sort of exaggerated to be honest (because the AMA is trying to lobby the government to provide funding for more residency spots (we also all know that the US government is in debt and probably not going to provide that funding)), but definitely it is becoming harder so you won't be on the same level playing field as people who match this year).

Another piece of advice that i learned if you decide to go overseas. Do your research about medicine, medical schools, residency and everything now. I sort of celebrated and thought i made it when i got into medical school straight from high school. I didn't know what the USMLE was, didn't know many specialties, didn't know NRMP, CaRMS (Its the Canadian matching service). I only started doing research after i entered 1st year. Don't walk in blind about the difficulty, be prepared for a tough road.

 

[sonofva]

ive looked at stats, and this is highly improbable, as the number of positions opening each year is greater than the number of medical grads. The number HAS to be filled with IMGs.

class numbers in established schools are growing every year, my friend. and at least 3 new osteopathic schools are slated to open in 2013...with the AOA/ACGME merger coming down the pike soon, slots for IMGs are going to get sucked up quickly and soon will be gone...

 

[astevens7911]

http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...igh-obamacares-pros-cons-for-medical-students

Here's a good summary of what's happening to the number of medical student slots and residency slots. It even cites a study that says the state of Texas will be graduating more medical students than it has residency spots by 2014

 

[sonofva]

http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...igh-obamacares-pros-cons-for-medical-students

Here's a good summary of what's happening to the number of medical student slots and residency slots. It even cites a study that says the state of Texas will be graduating more medical students than it has residency spots by 2014

good article!

 

[Medstart108]

i know people who have done BAs over the course of 5 years, taking classes once a week and such. I think that would be possible...right?

You seem to be very well informed about this, thank you once again, I will definitely take your advice no matter which path I take.

So, in your opinion, are the 4.5 years overseas worth it/doable?

Assuming you can take classes once a week and finish a BA in 5 years it makes it possible to do after residency without harming your job as a doctor. You still wouldn't be able to do it during residency because you will be working very long hours and essentially the very little free time you have on the weekends would be taken up by studying and going to class

There are a lot of online courses which offer degrees part time and yes you can consider those. I was thinking of the traditional on campus 4 year BA which would really be unfeasible after residency. So yes, for sure a lot of people do degrees like BA, BS, MS, MPH, MBA online/part time after residency.

I don't know enough really about you. If I was a classmate or a friend i would be able to give you much more accurate and better advice on whether or not its worth it/doable.

Knowing what i know, i would say its definitely doable.

A lot of people, including your brothers as you said, go overseas straight after high school for medical school. Its done all over the world. It takes a more adaptable, open minded and ambitious person to really do it (you will be living far away from home, have to handle a lot yourself, have to deal with a different culture), but if you feel you are one of those people or can become one then yes it is doable.

Whether or not it is worth it is a harder to answer question. If I were you and had parents that were open to me choosing either route i would choose the US route BA, MD. You said you like the humanities, which means you will likely perform your best (i.e. get higher grades) in a humanities course in the US, making you competitive for medical school. It also gives you a back out option with 0 consequences.

However, your parents are pretty adamant, and I can understand where they are coming from. Your parents are also offering you a back out option as well (keep in mind this will come with consequences, colleges will wonder why you went to medical school overseas for one year and dropped out). However, assuming you do find you love medicine, you adapt and do well in school, it is worth it to go overseas.

Your program is 4.5 years but realistically it is at least 5 since the US residency system works by year not half-years. But if it is 4.5 years it also gives you about half a year to do your residency interviews.

Many people will take a year off as well after graduating to write exams, fly over to the US for interviews etc. just because it is a time consuming process and many international schools don't arrange their schedules around US residency applications (for obvious reasons).

So either way 5 or 6 years later you will be a doctor. For Americans, this is 8 years minimum with many people not getting in on their first try making it 9 or 10 years.

You will have at least 2 years earning potential over them: Broadly speaking , 200k x 2-5 is 400k-1 million pre tax income. You will also be younger than many of your US peers, this can be a motivating factor.

Either way, at this point, I would maybe make one well reasoned argument to try and convince your parents to try US schools, but I wouldn't be too against international schools. It is really in your hands. If you go there and do well, you will get to come back and you will find a residency somewhere.

I would say tentatively that it is worth it to go overseas in your case only.

Lastly, your welcome, i'm always glad to help 🙂

 

[pkteen]

I am a Pakistani guy IN PAKISTAN. I got into AKU this year which is supposed to be the best in the country but decided against going there. I'm going to apply for undergrad now and gonna go for the American route. It's crazy hard for internationals but I'm going for it (thanks to a lot of people on here). Trust me dude, you cannot compare an American medical education to a Pakistani one.

 

[PTPoeny]

Here are two threads I highly recommend you read:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=990862
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=990269

Yes the first one is about going Caribbean, but the same info applies if you are leaving the US just for school and are only willing to consider practicing here. The total number of US MD/DO graduates is expected to rise to match the number of categorical match spots within a couple of years - before you would be applying. At this point these classes have already been accepted, so this is going to happen unless there is a sudden increase in residency spots.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1475200

Other info:
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2012.pdf