In need of advice to strengthen my application...

[kasmir8199]

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I'm just….stuck! I'm absolutely certain that I want to take this journey to get into med school (for psychiatry, unless something else wins me over during rotations), but I don't know what I can do to strengthen my application. I'd love to get into at least one of the targeted MD programs on my list (any school in GA).

I'm 31, a URM, single mother of 2 with a large support network, and I'm highly motivated!

• I received my BS in Psychology in 2003 from The University of Georgia
• I received my MS in Rehabilitation Psychology in 2004 from The University of Wisconsin (Madison)
• I also have a Post-grad Diploma in Digital Design in 2010 from The Art Institute of Pittsburgh (career switch to be a SAHM...long story.)

• My cGPA is low (3.12) with an obvious upward trend.
• My uGPA is a 2.84.
• My grad GPA at U. of Wisc was a 3.6
• My "diploma" GPA at The Art Institute was a 4.0 (will these even count? )

I took some overly challenging courses while joint enrolled (attending UGA as a high school junior/senior) which, obviously, hurt me BIG TIME in the long run. My mind wasn't mature enough to handle it then....it is now. I intend to take all of my pre-reqs at UGA starting this coming year. If I ace them all, I can raise my cGPA to 3.4 with a sGPA of 3.2.


I've yet to take the MCAT, but I'm well aware that I need to score high on that.

• Career experience as a Child & Family Therapist, On-Call Crisis Counselor, and Case Manager;
  
• Clinical Internship experience in mental health field (graduate);
• Practicum experience in both mental health/vocational rehab (graduate) and sports medicine (athletic training - undergrad); LOTS of experience with injury assessments and clinical evaluations because of this.
• Undergrad work-study experience in medical records;
• Volunteer work experience as a student athletic trainer (during the NCAA National Swimming & Diving Championships; undergrad);
• I plan to do a lot of shadowing (at least a half-day every week);
• Interned for Disney (twice)….just like to throw that out there
• Currently run my own graphic design business;
• and I enjoy boxing and martial arts. 🙂

What more can I do to strengthen my application? I'm aiming to apply for the entering class of 2015 and I will apply to more than just the 4 schools in GA. I do have family in Texas as well, so all the info I read about starting with a clean slate was very interesting.

I'm only interested in MD programs (not DO), so I know I have my work cut out for me….

I thank you all in advance for any advice you're able to share.

-Tammy

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Your uGPA will likely keep you out of MD programs. Most schools look at that MUCH more than your graduate gpa. You likely have 4 years ahead of you in order to raise your ugpa to a competitive range for MD schools. Your ugpa is also too low for DO schools at this point. Sorry but I don't see how it is possible to be competitive for an application for 2015. Your grad gpa isn't going to carry any weight. Is that cgpa with the grad stuff and the ugpa is just undergraduate? even as a URM, your gpa is just too low.

EDIT: here is a calculator to play around with: http://www.clarion.edu/84631/ basically, it says to raise your ugpa from 2.8 to 3.4, you would need another full 4 year degree at 4.0 gpa.

 

[kasmir8199]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Yes, the cGPA includes grad work. The uGPA is strictly undergrad and joint enrollment credits.

I've played around with a calculator similar to this and it won't actually take me that long to raise my GPA to a 3.4. I have to take into account classes being retaken and how that affects credit earned. The calculator provided by Southern Maine was very helpful in that regard.

I've seen many stats of individuals being admitted into competitive MD programs in the US even with uGPAs and cGPAs much lower than my own. MDapplicants.com was really interesting to explore.

I refuse to believe there is no hope for me.

 

[Skeeks]

There are a couple of historically black MD schools (I am not sure if you are African American or not, just throwing that out there in case you are) that might be willing to take your lower GPA in consideration of your circumstances. Definately dont give up hope. There is always a way. If you do fall under the african american URM then look up those schools for sure. If that is not the case do your best to raise the GPA as much as you can. Have you fulfilled all of your prereqs for med school? If not then that will help raise that uGPA.

If you are not african american, and you are unable to raise your cGPA to a 3.5 at least, I would see some serious difficulties getting into US MD schools. If you are absolutely set for sure on an MD degree your only other option would be carribean schools. They aren't as desirable as US schools, but it is possible to get to where you want from them. My brother-in-law went to Saba for his Med school and matched into a US residency. He is practicing now making $300,000 a year! So its possible, but he did go into FM not a speciatly so take that for what it's worth.

I am curious why you dont want to try for DO schools. DO schools tend to be more forgiving of lower GPAs and MCAT scores in light of life experience and trails. They are also very accepting of graduate work so those other degrees you have would mean a lot more to them. This would make you much more competitive applying to these programs than GPA and MCAT heavy MD schools. You do realize DOs can specialize in anything an MD can right? Sure you may have to work harder, but you sound more than willing to work for your dreams. In fact Psychiatry is a VERY common feild for DOs to practice in, so you'd be able to do exactly what you want no exceptions. So I will leave that for what it is. If you do decide to consider DO schools then I would imagine a 3.2 GPA in light of your life experience will be sufficient.

Best of luck! I am rooting for you
🙂

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Yes, the cGPA includes grad work. The uGPA is strictly undergrad and joint enrollment credits.

I've played around with a calculator similar to this and it won't actually take me that long to raise my GPA to a 3.4. I have to take into account classes being retaken and how that affects credit earned. The calculator provided by Southern Maine was very helpful in that regard.

I've seen many stats of individuals being admitted into competitive MD programs in the US even with uGPAs and cGPAs much lower than my own. MDapplicants.com was really interesting to explore.

I refuse to believe there is no hope for me.

not saying there is no hope for you, but you need to 1) be realistic, and 2) determine how much hope you are really willing to have. AACOMAS (which is for DO schools), will look at your retakes and replace the previous grade. AMCAS (which is for MD schools) won't. So all those retakes for MD schools won't do anything more than not retaking classes would. It definitely helps that you are a URM and you will be able to get in with a lower than average GPA, but you gotta raise your ugpa and if you have about 120 credits at a 2.84, it is going to take 112 credits at a 4.0 to raise your gpa to a 3.4 because of the fact that retakes don't do anything for you for MD schools. And it doesn't matter what your school might do regarding retakes, it only matters what AMCAS does. If you considered DO schools (which will get you the exact same stuff as an MD), retakes will be considered. DO schools also tend to be more accepting of nontraditional students and tend to also have more of them, so you are more likely to "fit in" in a DO school as a mother. I am a father so I speak from experience on that.

 

[Skeeks]

It definitely helps that you are a URM and you will be able to get in with a lower than average GPA, but you gotta raise your ugpa and if you have about 120 credits at a 2.84, it is going to take 112 credits at a 4.0 to raise your gpa to a 4.0 .

I think you meant 3.4 right?

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I think you meant 3.4 right?

yeah thanks

 

[kasmir8199]

There are a couple of historically black MD schools (I am not sure if you are African American or not, just throwing that out there in case you are) that might be willing to take your lower GPA in consideration of your circumstances. Definately dont give up hope. There is always a way. If you do fall under the african american URM then look up those schools for sure. If that is not the case do your best to raise the GPA as much as you can. Have you fulfilled all of your prereqs for med school? If not then that will help raise that uGPA.

If you are not african american, and you are unable to raise your cGPA to a 3.5 at least, I would see some serious difficulties getting into US MD schools. If you are absolutely set for sure on an MD degree your only other option would be carribean schools. They aren't as desirable as US schools, but it is possible to get to where you want from them. My brother-in-law went to Saba for his Med school and matched into a US residency. He is practicing now making $300,000 a year! So its possible, but he did go into FM not a speciatly so take that for what it's worth.

I am curious why you dont want to try for DO schools. DO schools tend to be more forgiving of lower GPAs and MCAT scores in light of life experience and trails. They are also very accepting of graduate work so those other degrees you have would mean a lot more to them. This would make you much more competitive applying to these programs than GPA and MCAT heavy MD schools. You do realize DOs can specialize in anything an MD can right? Sure you may have to work harder, but you sound more than willing to work for your dreams. In fact Psychiatry is a VERY common feild for DOs to practice in, so you'd be able to do exactly what you want no exceptions. So I will leave that for what it is. If you do decide to consider DO schools then I would imagine a 3.2 GPA in light of your life experience will be sufficient.

Best of luck! I am rooting for you
🙂

Thank you for that. 🙂
I appreciate you taking the time to respond and to also invoke more thinking on my part.

To answer your questions:

Yes I am African-American/Native-American, and I have strongly considered Morehouse School of Medicine in Atlanta, which ranks 56th in Psychiatry and 27th for Primary Care.

I haven't fulfilled all of my pre-reqs. I exempted all of my inorganic chemistry credits through AP examination in high school, so I intend to take these courses over. The schools that I'm considering will accept them (or some of them), but for knowledge sake, I want to retake these. I'm also lacking an organic chemistry credit and a physics credit.

I will do all that I can to raise my GPA, without a doubt, even if it means tacking on additional years, as long as it is beneficial in the long run.

Concerning your question about a DO, to be frank, I just didn't want another thing to add to my list of things to "overcome". Whether we like it or not, people generally place less merit on a DO programs than MD programs. Although MD programs are more challenging for me to get into, I don't doubt I can get into one in the US. I just need to make myself a better contender at this point.

Concerning schools in the Caribbean, I'm just not interested. I'd love to live in the Caribbean, it's beautiful there, and I'm sure they have outstanding programs, however, with 2 kids in tow (once who's mildly autistic), I need to try to get in where I have access to my support network (GA ideally, but also TX, WI, SC, VA - and areas surrounding).

This may sound weird, but I would LOVE to attend the local technical college to become EMT certified. I'd LOVE to get first hand trauma work experience before applying.
Do you think that would help as well strengthen my application? I would be able to do this at the tech college, while also taking my pre-reqs at the local 4-year institution (UGA).

Thanks again for your input.

 

[Captain Sisko]

If you want to be a therapist you don't need an MD for that. You only need to go to medical school if you want to practice medicine. There's a difference there. Not trying to shoot down your plans, but it would be easier to do that instead.

 

[kasmir8199]

not saying there is no hope for you, but you need to 1) be realistic, and 2) determine how much hope you are really willing to have.

Hence the original question: What more can I do to strengthen my application?

Please don't mistake this for me asking what are my chances at this point in time, because I know the answer to that.

Though I aim for the entering class of 2015, IF in 2014 my application isn't strong enough, then I'll push it back a year. I'll re-evaluate my standing with each cycle. This journey isn't something I'm taking lightly, so if it takes longer, then so be it.

I appreciate your honesty and the time you've taken to respond to me, and I ask you again:
What more can I do to strengthen my application?
Can you advise as to particular coursework, a particular type of shadowing/volunteering, scheduling consults with admissions, etc etc.? I'm looking for more constructive criticism.

 

[kasmir8199]

If you want to be a therapist you don't need an MD for that. You only need to go to medical school if you want to practice medicine. There's a difference there. Not trying to shoot down your plans, but it would be easier to do that instead.

Thanks Captain, and this is true. I've been a therapist. I have a graduate degree and the means to become a LPC.
What I want is to practice psychiatry (not to be confused with being a psychologist). I need an MD to become a psychiatrist, who has the ability to prescribe medications.

I'm also very open to other specialties.

 

[Captain Sisko]

I've been a therapist. I have a graduate degree and the means to become a LPC. I want to practice psychiatry. I need an MD to become a psychiatrist.

Or a DO. I know plenty of DO psychiatrists at two really good programs. Your perceived notion of bias against them may have some truth in more competitive specialties, but psychiatry is not one of them.

 

[kasmir8199]

Your perceived notion of bias against them may have some truth in more competitive specialties, but psychiatry is not one of them.

Noted. Thank you for that insight. A part of me wonders, since I'm open to other specialties, how much it would have an effect on me if I chose, say, obstetrics over psychiatry after experiencing that rotation.

 

[DopaDO]

The only fields that have some bias against DO's are the super competitive specialties such as Derm, ENT, and maybe Orthopaedics but with the upcoming ACGME-AOA dual accreditation system, it's possible we will see more DO's matching into these (not that they don't already). Anything else is DO friendly, especially Psych and OBGYN which are fairly uncompetitive to begin with. If you are serious about becoming a physician, you should consider the DO route. You'll have to do GPA repair regardless but the route is shorter if you apply DO. You are 31 and I doubt you want to spend many years repairing. Medical school is close to an 8 year commitment, you don't want to spend an extra 2-3 years of not making a physician's salary because you want MD behind your name. What ever you choose I wish you the best.

 

[Skeeks]

The only fields that have some bias against DO's are the super competitive specialties such as Derm, ENT, and maybe Orthopaedics but with the upcoming ACGME-AOA dual accreditation system, it's possible we will see more DO's matching into these (not that they don't already). Anything else is DO friendly, especially Psych and OBGYN which are fairly uncompetitive to begin with. If you are serious about becoming a physician, you should consider the DO route. You'll have to do GPA repair regardless but the route is shorter if you apply DO. You are 31 and I doubt you want to spend many years repairing. Medical school is close to an 8 year commitment, you don't want to spend an extra 2-3 years of not making a physician's salary because you want MD behind your name. What ever you choose I wish you the best.

I agree with this. Its true that DOs need slightly higher stats to match competitive residencies, but I know plenty that have done just that. Just to name one, not too long ago my school hosted a physician that attended KCOM (a prominent DO school) who now practices spinal Orthopedics (one of the most competitive residencies to place into). I understand your concern with obstacles already in your way, but remember that once you are in med school all of these other obstacles that you are currently facing will go away. So when it comes time to apply the ONLY obstacle you may face (IF you decide on a competitive residency) is being a DO, meaning you will just need to rock your boards, but if you have focused well in med school knowing that from the start it may not be a problem. Residencies are only going to look at your med school performance and board scores so to me it seems easier for you to work against a mild bias and do exceptional in medical school than to trudge an up hill battle that may take years to make you competitive for MD schools. However, I dont want to push my opinion on you, I think with lots work you can still attend an MD school.

Getting back to your original question about how to improve you current standing I think the EMT might help you at some schools. Its hard to say because each program is so different. Some Med schools will think its great experience, while others my question if you commonly jump from profession to profession so they could see it as a bad thing. The latter is an opinion I dont think you would commonly encounter, but important to consider. How each school will look at the experience can be inferred by looking up information about the school. What is their school's mission? What kind of students have they accepted in the past? The first can often be found on their school website, the former will sometimes be there, sometimes not so you might call the admissions office and ask to talk with a school ambassador. You will definitely want to do lots of research on every school you are going to apply to because applications are very expensive and you dont want to spend lots of money to be immediately reject if you do not meet what they are looking for.

Other than that you can take those chemistry classes, that will help your application if you do exceptionally well in them (aim for an A in every class). When it comes time for the MCAT plan on getting at least a 30, hopefully higher. With each of these things I think you can make it. Just keep a smile on your face, that will be your biggest challenge. Remember that stupid people have done it so you certainly can! You are the only one who puts limits on yourself!

 

[kasmir8199]

The only fields that have some bias against DO's are the super competitive specialties such as Derm, ENT, and maybe Orthopaedics but with the upcoming ACGME-AOA dual accreditation system, it's possible we will see more DO's matching into these (not that they don't already). Anything else is DO friendly, especially Psych and OBGYN which are fairly uncompetitive to begin with. If you are serious about becoming a physician, you should consider the DO route. You'll have to do GPA repair regardless but the route is shorter if you apply DO. You are 31 and I doubt you want to spend many years repairing. Medical school is close to an 8 year commitment, you don't want to spend an extra 2-3 years of not making a physician's salary because you want MD behind your name. What ever you choose I wish you the best.

Thanks, DopaDO! This gives me further insight into DO programs and competitive specialties. At 31, I still feel have all the time in the world. Money isn't my biggest concern right now, as I'm able to make ends meet with my graphic design. I see GPA repair as an excuse to allow me to get back into academia and learn even more before med school. Call me weird, but I'm actually quite excited about it.

-Tammy

 

[kasmir8199]

I agree with this. Its true that DOs need slightly higher stats to match competitive residencies, but I know plenty that have done just that. Just to name one, not too long ago my school hosted a physician that attended KCOM (a prominent DO school) who now practices spinal Orthopedics (one of the most competitive residencies to place into). I understand your concern with obstacles already in your way, but remember that once you are in med school all of these other obstacles that you are currently facing will go away. So when it comes time to apply the ONLY obstacle you may face (IF you decide on a competitive residency) is being a DO, meaning you will just need to rock your boards, but if you have focused well in med school knowing that from the start it may not be a problem. Residencies are only going to look at your med school performance and board scores so to me it seems easier for you to work against a mild bias and do exceptional in medical school than to trudge an up hill battle that may take years to make you competitive for MD schools. However, I dont want to push my opinion on you, I think with lots work you can still attend an MD school.

Getting back to your original question about how to improve you current standing I think the EMT might help you at some schools. Its hard to say because each program is so different. Some Med schools will think its great experience, while others my question if you commonly jump from profession to profession so they could see it as a bad thing. The latter is an opinion I dont think you would commonly encounter, but important to consider. How each school will look at the experience can be inferred by looking up information about the school. What is their school's mission? What kind of students have they accepted in the past? The first can often be found on their school website, the former will sometimes be there, sometimes not so you might call the admissions office and ask to talk with a school ambassador. You will definitely want to do lots of research on every school you are going to apply to because applications are very expensive and you dont want to spend lots of money to be immediately reject if you do not meet what they are looking for.

Other than that you can take those chemistry classes, that will help your application if you do exceptionally well in them (aim for an A in every class). When it comes time for the MCAT plan on getting at least a 30, hopefully higher. With each of these things I think you can make it. Just keep a smile on your face, that will be your biggest challenge. Remember that people much more stupid than you have done it! You are the only one who puts limits on yourself!

Who are you calling stupid??!! I kid, I kid!! I loved your response, and thank you so very much for that.

You're very right: get into med school (regardless of DO or MD), rock the boards, and aim for a competitive residency. Great points! I value your opinion.

I'm also prepared to answer interview questions about the career switches. Without going into too much detail, pursuing my doctorate was the plan coming out of graduate school, however, my focus then was to become a psychologist as opposed to a psychiatrist and working a couple of years in the field was the preferred course of action by the schools I wished to apply to. It wasn't until after working along both while working as a therapist that practicing psychiatry was more in line with what I wanted to do in the long run. Insert the birth of 2 children and separation from my then fiancé, I did what I had to do as a mom...now that my kids are of school age, I'm now able to take the steps to get back on my original track. The EMT thing....sounds so intriguing! I just crave this knowledge....

 

[Skeeks]

Antoher thing I would suggest that I failed to mention in that last post is for MD schools you will want to round out your application. What I mean by that is you will need to build some areas that you haven't quite yet. The biggest improvement I can see for MD schools would be research. DO schools usually dont care whether you have research experience, but most MD school will want you to have some kind of research behind your belt. This will help you "round out" you med school application. Hope this helps.

 

[Skeeks]

Who are you calling stupid??!! I kid, I kid!! I loved your response, and thank you so very much for that.

Acutally when I was re reading that post I realized how that might sound mean and edited it to sound a little more appropriate! I am glad you have the humor to catch my drift!

It wasn't until after working along both while working as a therapist that practicing psychiatry was more in line with what I wanted to do in the long run. Insert the birth of 2 children and separation from my then fiancé, I did what I had to do as a mom...now that my kids are of school age, I'm now able to take the steps to get back on my original track.

Perfect answer! I would even make some of these experiences main points in your PS. You have an incredible background to build yourself upon, it may seem like you are tooting your own horn but play up these strengths for everything they are worth!

The EMT thing....sounds so intriguing! I just crave this knowledge....

Then I would definitely do it. If its not going to get in the way of anything, and its something you will enjoy then it can only help. Especially in light of your previous answer about your various life experiences.

 

[kasmir8199]

Antoher thing I would suggest that I failed to mention in that last post is for MD schools you will want to round out your application. What I mean by that is you will need to build some areas that you haven't quite yet. The biggest improvement I can see for MD schools would be research. DO schools usually dont care whether you have research experience, but most MD school will want you to have some kind of research behind your belt. This will help you "round out" you med school application. Hope this helps.

YES! This helps greatly, thank you! I was just thinking about this the other day and I know just who to ask about obtaining experience in the ATL area. One of my best friends growing up was the queen of research and lab experience (in my opinion). She did a lot at Emory and Yale on her way to earning her PhD.

 

[kasmir8199]

Acutally when I was re reading that post I realized how that might sound mean and edited it to sound a little more appropriate! I am glad you have the humor to catch my drift!

lol, I noticed you edited it out, but it was too funny not to comment on. 😉

Perfect answer! I would even make some of these experiences main points in your PS. You have an incredible background to build yourself upon, it may seem like you are tooting your own horn but play up these strengths for everything they are worth!

Thanks! And thanks on the suggestion!

Then I would definitely do it. If its not going to get in the way of anything, and its something you will enjoy then it can only help. Especially in light of your previous answer about your various life experiences.

I certainly want to. I see it as this: if I'm going to have to shadow a physician anyway, I might was well do something that would further enhance my learning experience and give me an additional viewpoint. Something like an EMT program or a Surgical Tech program would only feed my hunger for such knowledge.

I wouldn't let it get in the way of fulfilling my pre-reqs.