In this generation of debt, why the hell are we going to med school???

[Drogba]

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Do you think I would have sacrificed so much if I didn't love those squirrely mother****ers? Being aware that most of them are fat, stupid, and lazy in no way detracts from my fondness for them.

Ah, so its the love of the condescending patriarch.
Better than nothing I guess...

 

[Drogba]

Good lord, man, where have you been for the past year? Silence is golden, but come on. Welcome back to the fray.

Haha thanks, good to see you are still around.

SDN is such a time-sink, though. I will probably disappear again shortly. I just decided to check up on things during spring break. I might hang out and respond to threads concerning global health, the social sciences and especially the MD/PhD path in social sciences, which means my participation should be minimal.

 

[link2swim06]

Think of it this way. The goal of the bill is to buy groceries for the family. The earmarks designate that dad wants some Fritos, and the teenagers want soda and candy. The budget is the same, but now a certain portion has been targeted to certain people.

No, with all respect most earmarks are not "part of the budget." Remember the trillions of dollars of stimulus over the past few months? If you followed the news day by day you would notice that the stimulus grew as did the earmarks. Earmarks are normally added on as additional pages on bills that are passed through. Typically they are only read by the people who write them and are never even looked at by other congress members. Please refer to my post on page 2 for my explanation of how much money you are losing to this.

 

[45408]

No, with all respect most earmarks are not "part of the budget." Remember the trillions of dollars of stimulus over the past few months? If you followed the news day by day you would notice that the stimulus grew as did the earmarks. Earmarks are normally added on as additional pages on bills that are passed through. Typically they are only read by the people who write them and are never even looked at by other congress members. Please refer to my post on page 2 for my explanation of how much money you are losing to this.

Um, yes, they are part of the budget. You CAN add to the size of a bill and add an earmark, but that's not an intrinsic part of the definition.

Congressional earmarks are often defined loosely as anonymously authored guarantees of federal funds to particular recipients in appropriations-related documents.

The federal Office of Management and Budget defines earmarks as funds provided by Congress for projects or programs where the congressional direction (in bill or report language) circumvents Executive Branch merit-based or competitive allocation processes, or specifies the location or recipient, or otherwise curtails the ability of the Executive Branch to manage critical aspects of the funds allocation process.

Attempts have been made to define earmarks in ethics and budget reform legislation. However, due to the controversial nature of earmarks and the effects these definitions would have on Congressional power, none of these has been widely accepted.

Like I said, dad wants some Fritos, the kids want Twinkies, and the teenagers want soda. Their portion of the grocery budget is going to go towards some of those requests.

 

[melanoleuca]

Ah, so its the love of the condescending patriarch.
Better than nothing I guess...

I am never condescending and I treat them like they are fully capable of taking care of themselves by making good decisions; neither do I patronize them by treating them like they can't...but they are what they are and I ain't gonna' hang out with them or willingly let them marry my sister.

 

[starfishprime]

Think of it this way. The goal of the bill is to buy groceries for the family. The earmarks designate that dad wants some Fritos, and the teenagers want soda and candy. The budget is the same, but now a certain portion has been targeted to certain people.

But in this case, dad wants some Fritos, mom wants ice cream, and the teenagers want soda and candy.

Dad has the deciding power, so he designates some of the grocery budget for Fritos, and some for ice cream.

Of course, he's going to get mom her ice cream, because dad wants to get laid. Screw the teenagers, they can't vote anyway and are probably too busy watching the MTV to care.

We, my friends, are the teenagers.

 

[melanoleuca]

That person is just a panda wannabe. Going around saying that debt is not an issue. What a ****ing idiot.

Did you not read one of my previous posts? Medical student debt for most medical students including those who match into primary care is not that hard to manage. It looks like a lot now, that $150,000-or-so of debt, but that's only because you've never made any real money or worked at a decent job. In other words, it only looks like a lot for the same reason you think a $102,000 salary is a crapload of money, namely because you have no basis for comparison except the usual entry level jobs that you may have held.

I also again want to caution all of you to not make physician pay a function of medical student debt. To do so is to set yourself up to make diddly-squat when the government under The Sun King, Ra-Obama, calls your bluff and offers to pay for medical school provided you work for peanuts.

Now look, I am down to the double digits in days left of this long, slow slog through medical training. I have applied to medical school, interviewed, written a cheesy personal statement, stretched the truth a bit on my application, matriculated, cut up cadavers, sat in lecture, walked around like a jibbering ****** on my first day of clinical rotations, and eventually graduated. I went through the match twice, did two grueling intern years during which I was almost always severely sleep deprived, and am this close to completing my residency. I have rotated in everything, put up with abuse and humiliation, and learned a lot about medicine from a practical, theoretical, financial, legal, and philosophical perspective. I have passed all three Step exams, have a real honest-to-God medical license, an NPI number, a CDS license, and a DEA number. I have interviewed for real jobs, negotiated contracts, turned some people down and signed the one I thought was the best deal for me in terms of pay, location, and work environment. I have sweated and bled for this career over the last eight years and sacrificed almost everything that should be important and now I come back with tales from the strange land of medicine, a land that many of you have never seen and can only imagine, and instead of saying, "Thanks for taking the time to let us know what lies ahead all you can say is 'What a ****ing idiot.'"

My reasons for writing my blog and posting here on SDN are my own. But while you need to be skeptical of everything everybody tells you, to reject out-of-hand everything that doesn't jibe with your preconcieved notions is ridiculous.

 

[starfishprime]

But while you need to be skeptical of everything everybody tells you, to reject out-of-hand everything that doesn't jibe with your preconcieved notions is ridiculous.

Thanks for taking the time to let us know what lies ahead.

 

[Shawnpremed]

Do you guys think the # of med school applicants will decline over the next yr or so, due to the econ. doing poorly?

 

[Lacheln]

It looks like a lot now, that $150,000-or-so of debt, but that's only because you've never made any real money or worked at a decent job. In other words, it only looks like a lot for the same reason you think a $102,000 salary is a crapload of money, namely because you have no basis for comparison except the usual entry level jobs that you may have held.

QFT

Melanopanda - thank you very much, as always, for sharing an informed perspective. You have more patience than I could ever aspire to.

DOQuestions: Can you please hit the shuffle button? At first you were entertaining because it's fun to watch someone completely spaz out, but now it's just repetitive. $$$$$$$Debt$$$$$Debt$$$$$$$$Debt$$$$$$ breath $$$$$$$Debt$$$$$Debt$$$$$$$$Debt$$$$$$ repeat ad nauseum

We get it, you're the only one on here with any financial sense and a grand sense of purpose, with the vim and vigor to change the world one (deserving) patient at a time! Please go back to randomly dragging your sex life into the discussion before I sober up and block you out of boredom. Perhaps explain the best options for marital relations on an air mattress three feet away from your roommate? Easy ways to make your 4 year old polyester wardrobe sexy?

Eh, whatever, I've already lost interest. 😴

 

[Superman78]

Get over the earmark rhetoric, it's <2% of the bill.

Bill: $410 billion
Earmarks: $5.5 billion

Here it is in a pie chart:

And it's not like earmarks are automatically bad, they're just the requests of individual districts. A lot of it is for scientific research. I know Republicans laugh and scoff at fruit fly research ("why do we need to study flies!!??? LOLOLOLOLOLOL the Dems are at it again!") but we're all educated enough to know how useful the Drosophila fly has been in genetics.

 

[Thrombomodulin]

.

 

[DOquestions]

I think that due to the rising costs of medical school tuition, we will see a decline in applicants. At some point, prospective applicants will decide that the amount of student loans necessary to attend medical school are not worth the benefits.

There was a report published by the AAMC discussing this topic, I think in 2004. There was an update in 2007. I will try to find it and post it tonight.

We are at that point already.

I think we are going to see an increase in the average age of admissions because medical school is getting so expensive. We could end up seeing young adults that come from rich families go to medical school and the poor will struggle.

Edit: Yes, he changed his name. I called him a certain something to solidify that he was who we thought he was.

 

[Drogba]

...

"Thanks for taking the time to let us know what lies ahead all you can say is 'What a ****ing idiot.'

..."

A wholly inappropriate comment for sure, and obviously one you would never hear from someone, especially so junior to you in experience, in any forum other than an online message board.

Despite our significant disagreement on a range of issues, I do appreciate your input. I lament the fact that people don't know how to express themselves less impulsively here on SDN.

 

[niranjan162]

Do you guys think the # of med school applicants will decline over the next yr or so, due to the econ. doing poorly?

No, the poor economy will cause a bit of an increase in applicants for a little while.

Depending on the way health reform goes, we will probably see a decrease in applicants overall though.

 

[Shawnpremed]

I think that due to the rising costs of medical school tuition, we will see a decline in applicants. At some point, prospective applicants will decide that the amount of student loans necessary to attend medical school are not worth the benefits.

There was a report published by the AAMC discussing this topic, I think in 2004. There was an update in 2007. I will try to find the link and post it tonight.

Just wanted to know I'm not the only one thinking this, and also,

.

 

[scottd]

Doctors vs. Dentists in terms of hourly pay

Dentists take 4 of the top 5 spots and 6 of the top 10 spots

1. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon 336/36 = $179.5/hr
2. Endodontist 303.9/36 = $162.4/hr
3. Pedodontiac Dentist 294.4/36 = $157.1/hr
4. Orthodontist 279.4/36 = $149.0/hr
5. Orthopedic Surgeon 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr

6. Periodontist 216.4/36 = $115.4/hr
7. Pathologist 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
8. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
9. Prosthodontist 190.9/36 = $102.0/hr
10. Opthalomologist 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr

11. Dermatologist 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr
12. EM 220/45 = $94.0/hr
13. General Dentist 173.1/36 = $92.4/hr
14. Neurosurgery / Plastic Surgery 275.2/59.6 = $88.8/hr
15. Urologist 264.5/57.4 = $88.6/hr

16. Surgeon (gen) 263.7/58.2 = $87.1/hr
17. Anesthesiologist 244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
18. ENT 214.5/52.1 = $79.2/hr
19. OB/GYN 227/55.7 = $78.4/hr
20. Neurologist 183.1/53.7 = $65.6/hr

21. Psychiatrist 145.7/44 = $63.7/hr
22. IM 164.1/55.6 = $56.8/hr
23. FP 146.5/50.7 = $55.6/hr
24. Pediatrician 137.8/49.4 = $53.6/hr

Sources:

American Dental Association -
http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
Survey of Dental Practice. c. 2003 Edition, American Dental Association

American Medical Association -
http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association

BLS stats are not accurate - they only include salaried dentists for which (as we all know) most dentists are not.

 

[usermike8500]

Doctors vs. Dentists in terms of hourly pay

Dentists take 4 of the top 5 spots and 6 of the top 10 spots

1. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon 336/36 = $179.5/hr
2. Endodontist 303.9/36 = $162.4/hr
3. Pedodontiac Dentist 294.4/36 = $157.1/hr
4. Orthodontist 279.4/36 = $149.0/hr
5. Orthopedic Surgeon 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr
[/B]

I wonder why dentists have one of the highest suicides rates of any profession? Sometimes, I am almost convinced that money does not in fact buy happiness.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I wonder why dentists have one of the highest suicides rates of any profession? Sometimes, I am almost convinced that money does not in fact buy happiness.

It is generally thought that dentists have such a high suicide rate because the start-up costs of opening a dental practice are much higher than are the costs of opening most medical practices.

 

[scottd]

PERCENTAGE OF DEATHS DUE TO SUICIDE
U.S. white male population 25 and older (1970): 1.5
U.S. white male dentists (1968-72): 2.0 (85 of 4,190)
U.S. white male medical doctors (1967-72): 3.0 (544 of 17,979)
U.S. white male population 25 and older (1990): 2.0
U.S. white male medical doctors (1984-95): 2.7 (379 of 13,790)
(Sources: Vital Statistics of the United States--1970, National Center for Health Statistics, Table 1-26, "Deaths from 281 Selected Causes, by Age, Race, and Sex: United States, 1970"; death certificates from 31 states, reported in "Mortality of Dentists, 1968 to 1972," Bureau of Economic Research and Statistics, Journal of the American Dental Association, January 1975, pp. 195ff; death reports collected by the American Medical Association, reported in "Suicide by Psychiatrists: A Study of Medical Specialists Among 18,730 Physician Deaths During a Five-Year Period, 1967-72," Rich et al., Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, August 1980, pp. 261ff.; Vital Statistics of the United States--1990, National Center for Health Statistics, Table 1-27, "Deaths from 282 Selected Causes, by 5-Year Age Groups, Race, and Sex: United States--1990"; National Occupational Mortality Surveillance database, reported in "Mortality Rates and Causes Among U.S. Physicians," Frank et al., American Journal of Preventive Medicine, Vol. 19, No. 3, 2000.
​

 

[flip26]

I wonder why dentists have one of the highest suicides rates of any profession? Sometimes, I am almost convinced that money does not in fact buy happiness.

Urban legend.

 

[funkymunkytoes]

I wonder why dentists have one of the highest suicides rates of any profession? Sometimes, I am almost convinced that money does not in fact buy happiness.

Has someone been watching "The Whole Nine Yards" and taking it literally? 😉

Medical doctors have the highest suicide rates, yet another reason to pursue the field! But then again, so do great artists like Jackson Pollock, Mark Rothko, etc.

 

[45408]

and instead of saying, "Thanks for taking the time to let us know what lies ahead all you can say is 'What a ****ing idiot.'"

My reasons for writing my blog and posting here on SDN are my own. But while you need to be skeptical of everything everybody tells you, to reject out-of-hand everything that doesn't jibe with your preconcieved notions is ridiculous.

Screw him, man. If you still blogged, I'd still read. I even searched for your posts for a while when you vanished on us. Keep on posting on.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

I wonder why dentists have one of the highest suicides rates of any profession? Sometimes, I am almost convinced that money does not in fact buy happiness.

Because they are stuck looking at teeth all ****in day everyday.

 

[starfishprime]

Medical doctors have the highest suicide rates, yet another reason to pursue the field!

The raw statistics aren't necessarily enough. Consider, for example, that the average physician knows dozens of ways to kill himself painlessly, and has the means to do so.

Thought experiment:
Imagine two populations, one composed of exclusively high school teachers and one composed exclusively of physicians. Assume that the inclination to suicide is equal between the two populations. Would you not expect the physician group to have a higher rate of death due to suicide? While the teachers might swallow a bottle of Zoloft, a physician could, with relative ease, self-administer a massive dose of fentanyl IV.

'Suicide rate' alone is therefore meaningless.

Suicide rate = attempts * efficiency

For physicians, the efficiency approaches unity.

 

[niranjan162]

The raw statistics aren't necessarily enough. Consider, for example, that the average physician knows dozens of ways to kill himself painlessly, and has the means to do so.

Thought experiment:
Imagine two populations, one composed of exclusively high school teachers and one composed exclusively of physicians. Assume that the inclination to suicide is equal between the two populations. Would you not expect the physician group to have a higher rate of death due to suicide? While the teachers might swallow a bottle of Zoloft, a physician could, with relative ease, self-administer a massive dose of fentanyl IV.

'Suicide rate' alone is therefore meaningless.

Suicide rate = attempts * efficiency

For physicians, the efficiency approaches unity.

Well theres also sex differences between suicide

Women are most likely to down a bottle of pills whereas men are more likely to use a gun.

 

[majahops]

A good deal of research has been done on it, and it's actually primarily because of the degree of professional autonomy they have. They have almost complete control over their daily work life, with really no co-workers (in single-dentist operations, at least) or bosses (other than patients) to answer to or to "relate" to, and it can contribute to a sense of isolation and loneliness.

Because they are stuck looking at teeth all ****in day everyday.

 

[Thrombomodulin]

.

 

[Renaissance gal]

I don't think you will be making 55K a year in med school. The monthly stipend is $1900/mo, minus taxes it will be ~$1132/mo or right at 13K. You only get paid as an O-1 for the 45 days per year that you are on Active Duty. I've been looking into this myself. I'm going to an inexpensive state school for 15K a year so I'm trying to decide if the roughly 30K per year to join the military is really worth it. Just wanted to give you a heads up in case you recruiter was lying to you. Best of luck.

 

[MADocMaybe]

Hey majahops... I've considered USUHS and the HPSP program myself. I actually work at USUHS, where a lot of the faculty I know went to med school through the HPSP program. I have received a lot of advice, for both military and civilian programs... which I'd be happy to share with you. Also, there is a military medicine forum on SDN which is regularly read and commented on by applicants, current students, residents, and attendings within the military health-care system. I've checked these out, and recommend that you do as well! http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=72

Good luck making your decision!

Thanks again, man. The thing is, I'm 28 and I have a girlfriend of 8.5 years. I want to marry her at some point soon and I really want to have a child. Now, I know all of these things are possible while going into debt, but they are much more difficult. Given that I want to go into Oncology, it'll be until I am at least 37 before I can really START paying back any significant amount of my medical school loans. That is a REALLY disturbing thought. Also, the school I am most seriously considering is very expensive (BU), both in terms of tuition and cost of living. Essentially all of the schools I've been accepted to are somewhat expensive.

On the other hand, going with the military increases the chance that I won't be able to get into an Oncology fellowship (or other specialty). That is an almost equally scary thought...

Ahhh.....

 

[xrevision]

Thanks for the comment, but I don't really appreciate you calling my analysis "ridiculous." If you honestly think that, you are in for a nasty surprise. Most of us will spend $200k+ to go to school, and once interest starts accruing, we should expect to pay $300-400k--especially if you go to a private school.

In the next 10 years, we will not be wealthy. We will be poor-ass students over the next 4 years, then poor-ass residents for another 3-7, then possibly leave residency making slightly over 100k. This is a realistic outlook. Most of us (according to the BLS) will make about $150k. After paying off my loan charges, taxes and insurance costs, medical practice costs and not to mention the costs of a family, disposable income will be at a minimum, even with a $150k income. Even in a high-paying specialty, it may take a number of years to reach $250k or $300k+. Assume 15 years from today to make it there. Will my loans be paid off by then? Probably not.

Joining the military (USUHS) does this: saves me more then $100k a year by removing tuition and giving me a $55k salary (O-1) for 4 years. Residents in the military are paid upwards of $60k (O-3). There is no medical malpractice insurance, and no healthcare premiums (yes, even doctors have those) for my entire family, for my entire career. All in all, in comparison to a private education, this puts me at +$300k rather than -$300k after only the first four years, and the difference grows into residency. After that, my pay may not be as high as the next guy, but he has lost that $300-500k that I didn't. He/She is paying for malpractice and practice fees, where I am not.

My choice is not ridiculous, it is logical. It just may not be your choice. I would like to make a ton of money, but money is not why I got into medicine. And I hope it is not why you got into it. I still have a choice between private school and the military, and I will make it when the choice becomes clear. Good luck to all.

Do NOT join the military for the money. There are a million reasons why its better to take in the debt and not join the military.

 

[circulus vitios]

I've been reading WallStreetOasis for a while now. I've learned that i-banking isn't as easy as every pre-med thinks. If you're smart enough to get into medical school, you're smart enough to be successful in anything else!

If you do get into an entry level job as an analyst, you're more or less confined to New York City. As an analyist you'll spend 14-18 hour days in the office for 6-7 days a week....just staring at Excel spreadsheets.

The base pay for analysts is around $50-60k/year. Bonuses were extravagant - last year. They went from $90k at their height in 2007 to about $60k this year. First year analysts routinely do without vacations. $120k / ~4k hours and you're at $30/hour.

I believe analysts work for three years before they either change careers or go to business school and (rarely) get promoted to associate rank.



I'm not going into medicine for the sole purpose of making money, but it is a large factor. Out of curiosity, would someone please tell me more about these mythical jobs where I can make "much more money in a shorter amount of time vs becoming a doctor?"

edit:

Here is an excellent post that summarizes entry level investment banking jobs: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/you-all-have-a-lot-of-growing-up-to-dohttp://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/why-this-talk-of-exit-options-amazes-me#comment-71912

 

[witness23]

circulus, to answer your last question


you definitely can't (on average). good post.

 

[BennieBlanco]

I've been reading WallStreetOasis for a while now. I've learned that i-banking isn't as easy as every pre-med thinks. If you're smart enough to get into medical school, you're smart enough to be successful in anything else!

If you do get into an entry level job as an analyst, you're more or less confined to New York City. As an analyist you'll spend 14-18 hour days in the office for 6-7 days a week....just staring at Excel spreadsheets.

The base pay for analysts is around $50-60k/year. Bonuses were extravagant - last year. They went from $90k at their height in 2007 to about $60k this year. First year analysts routinely do without vacations. $120k / ~4k hours and you're at $30/hour.

I believe analysts work for three years before they either change careers or go to business school and (rarely) get promoted to associate rank.



I'm not going into medicine for the sole purpose of making money, but it is a large factor. Out of curiosity, would someone please tell me more about these mythical jobs where I can make "much more money in a shorter amount of time vs becoming a doctor?"

edit:

Here is an excellent post that summarizes entry level investment banking jobs: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/you-all-have-a-lot-of-growing-up-to-do

I had one of those jobs. 1 year after getting my B.A. I sold mortgages over the phone with one of the major US banks. I earned 170k in last 12 months before I decided to pursue medicine.

The top guy (#1) there earned about 350k. I was probably ranked around #10-15 when I left out of our approximately 300 national reps. avg employee age was 24-30yrs old. Most didn't make over 100k though, average was closer to 50-80k or so.

These jobs exist, I worked hard but I was paid very well for what I did.

Entry level investment banking sucks. you don't get paid very well at all and you just are a slave, you kiss ace in hopes of moving up a ladder that doesn't even exist anymore. I was considering moving to NYC originally to pursue it until I realized that they all sell their souls for greed and ambition (lol, not all but you get the point).

But lets say I just make 120k on average (very VERY possible in sales bro) and I take 6 years before I get through medical school, then 3 years in residency. I've lost about 720k in salary over 6 years and I've borrowed 100k (interest accruing, so lets say 150k by payoff time) and the 3 years I'm down 80k per year in lost income.

Total:

720k income (low conservative estimate for a good salesperson in 6 years, high conservative is probably 1 million)
150k debt
240k opportunity cost

I'm coming up with about a million plus.

BUT, as an MD you should be able to clear 200k (conservative estimate). So in about a decade you've earned back the investment. So long term the money works out I guess. (but as for hard work, the guys rarely work over 60 hrs in sales. But I think most who work hard work about 60hrs a week)

I've never done this math before because the money side really isn't that important. People over value cash. I was making 30k a year one year then 170k the next year, the only thing that changed is I wasted money on a Lexus IS250 and bought "cooler"(read: more expensive) clothes, and I never had to worry about how much money I spent at Costco.

Wasn't any happier, I'm not saying I was rich but $ is overrated. So are nice cars, my older Ford F150 was just as good as my newer car.

 

[circulus vitios]

I had one of those jobs. 1 year after getting my B.A. I sold mortgages over the phone with one of the major US banks. I earned 170k in last 12 months before I decided to pursue medicine.

The top guy (#1) there earned about 350k. I was probably ranked around #10-15 when I left out of our approximately 300 national reps. avg employee age was 24-30yrs old. Most didn't make over 100k though, average was closer to 50-80k or so.

These jobs exist, I worked hard but I was paid very well for what I did.

Entry level investment banking sucks. you don't get paid very well at all and you just are a slave, you kiss ace in hopes of moving up a ladder that doesn't even exist anymore. I was considering moving to NYC originally to pursue it until I realized that they all sell their souls for greed and ambition (lol, not all but you get the point).

But lets say I just make 120k on average (very VERY possible in sales bro) and I take 6 years before I get through medical school, then 3 years in residency. I've lost about 720k in salary over 6 years and I've borrowed 100k (interest accruing, so lets say 150k by payoff time) and the 3 years I'm down 80k per year in lost income.

Total:

720k income (low conservative estimate for a good salesperson in 6 years, high conservative is probably 1 million)
150k debt
240k opportunity cost

I'm coming up with about a million plus.

BUT, as an MD you should be able to clear 200k (conservative estimate). So in about a decade you've earned back the investment. So long term the money works out I guess. (but as for hard work, the guys rarely work over 60 hrs in sales. But I think most who work hard work about 60hrs a week)

I've never done this math before because the money side really isn't that important. People over value cash. I was making 30k a year one year then 170k the next year, the only thing that changed is I wasted money on a Lexus IS250 and bought "cooler"(read: more expensive) clothes, and I never had to worry about how much money I spent at Costco.

Wasn't any happier, I'm not saying I was rich but $ is overrated. So are nice cars, my older Ford F150 was just as good as my newer car.

I wonder how well your coworkers are doing (earnings wise) in 2009?

I forgot to mention in my first post, but i-banking jobs recruit heavily at "target" (Ivy) schools. They actually set aside seats for targets, while non-targets have to claw and fight their way to get in. Did you go to a target school? If I ever wanted to get into i-banking (doubtful), I'm already screwed because I go to a really non-target school.

 

[buccsmf1]

lol... if you guys went into medicine for the money you made a big mistake. If you apply a medical work ethic to business/law you'd make a crap-ton more money

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

lol... if you guys went into medicine for the money you made a big mistake. If you apply a medical work ethic to business/law you'd make a crap-ton more money

NO. There is a good chance that you will not make a crap-ton more money. Also there are not "easier" and "better" ways to make money just different. You're not a martyr by choosing to go to medical school. Guess what others work hard too in their careers. Law school is hard and you will make way less than in medicine in most cases. Why is that here is the reason

 

[littlealex]

God you guys need to quit complaining and freaking out.

1. Yes, there are a lot of loans.
2. Yes, it is possible to pay it off.
3. Yes, doctors still make more on average than most careers despite the loans.

Just live within your means and stop hoping that medicine will become a lucrative career.

Stop complaining and work hard. Or go play the lottery.

 

[BennieBlanco]

I wonder how well your coworkers are doing (earnings wise) in 2009?

I forgot to mention in my first post, but i-banking jobs recruit heavily at "target" (Ivy) schools. They actually set aside seats for targets, while non-targets have to claw and fight their way to get in. Did you go to a target school? If I ever wanted to get into i-banking (doubtful), I'm already screwed because I go to a really non-target school.

I know how well they are doing. I still know them : )

they went down by about 10-20% in income. Interest rates were VERY low, lower than when we were doing well. The bad thing about my job was that your income could cut in half if the company ever decided.

"Oh, were going to pay you less commission" or "lets market less because our employees are costing us too much"

They did this all the time, paychecks for me varied from 9k to 26k (peak, not regular). So you truly are a slave, definitely not your own master. I didn't go to a target school. I had to work my ace off to get every job I had, I was never the ideal candidate. Networking got me my best job.

Side note, after I left every time I had a call from a buddy saying, "Oh I made 15k this month" and I knew I outperformed him regularly it stung (because now I live like a pauper! lol) BUT they would always end with, "I hate this business but it is hard to complain when I'm making $." After I heard that I knew I made the right decision to leave.

 

[usermike8500]

Universal Healthcare in Japan. Check it out...

"So here's a country with the longest life expectancy, excellent health results, no waiting lists and rock-bottom costs. Is anyone complaining?

Well, the doctors are. Kono says he's getting paid peanuts for all his hard work.

If somebody comes in with a cut less than 6 square inches, Kono gets 450 yen, or about $4.30, to sew it up.

"It's extremely cheap," he says.

Kono is forced to look for other ways to make a yen. He has four vending machines in the waiting room. In a part of Tokyo with free street parking, he charges $4 an hour to park at his clinic.

The upside is that virtually no one in Japan goes broke because of medical expenses."

Here's the link
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89626309



Are we, as future American physicians destined for the same fate once we achieve universal healthcare in the States? Will the government define what we are allowed to charge and limit our earnings to the point where we must resort to using vending machines in the waiting room to pay back our loans?

 

[circulus vitios]

lol... if you guys went into medicine for the money you made a big mistake. If you apply a medical work ethic to business/law you'd make a crap-ton more money

Did you not read my post?

 

[motherof4]

Do you think I would have sacrificed so much if I didn't love those squirrely mother****ers? Being aware that most of them are fat, stupid, and lazy in no way detracts from my fondness for them.

Please Dear Husband be truthful. You love your job because you are in charge. It has little to do with the patients.

Your Wife