Incoming MS1 with checkered mental health history

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trocreat

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Hi everyone,

I will be matriculating at an MD school this Fall (not sure which one yet, because I've paid the deposit on the school to which I've been accepted but am waiting to hear from others), and I have a checkered history with mental health. I know this forum is not for legal advice, but I'm wondering what I should do about it.

Here's my situation. A decade ago, when I was in my teens, I attempted suicide with tylenol. Voluntary admission. I was medicated afterward. Few months later, attempted again, but my girlfriend called police and I was taken in for observation and released the next day. I was medicated afterward. I have not been on anti-depressants since this time period.

No one knows this history outside of my immediate family, my ex, and a couple of close friends. I have heard that the paperwork for incoming MS1s, as well as eventual medical licensing in some states, asks you if you have a history of depression. Can I keep this a secret from medical schools and licensing boards without consequences? I am worried that if I tell the medical school in question, that they will revoke my acceptance. Right now they have no idea, because the depression or the attempts were not mentioned anywhere on my application. I am also worried that if I answer no to a question like this on the form, and my history later gets out, that they'd yank my license.

My second time when it involved the police may be listed in my state database, because it involved the police taking me in for observation at a hospital's psych ward. I know that these records are supposed to be highly secure but I wonder if medical licensing boards or medical schools can access them. These are the only blemishes on my record. I have no criminal history of any sort. Most people on here tell people to come clean about past institutional actions or criminal records but I haven't done anything wrong in my eyes. I don't feel that the schools or the licensing agencies or residencies have any right to know my personal medical history.

Any advice would be appreciated.
 
i would apperciate an answer to this as well. Because of doctor visits and meds I don't think it wud b possible 2 hide my history, but I'm hoping I don't have to reveal how bad it actually was.
Also congrats on your recovery and application success 🙂

Sent from my SCH-I405 using SDN Mobile
 
i would apperciate an answer to this as well. Because of doctor visits and meds I don't think it wud b possible 2 hide my history, but I'm hoping I don't have to reveal how bad it actually was.
Also congrats on your recovery and application success 🙂

Sent from my SCH-I405 using SDN Mobile

Thanks so much for your congrats. Sorry to hear about your struggles as well.
 
Your acceptance will not be rescinded. Medical schools have no right to demand your medical history as it is protected information and your decision to not disclose it will not harm you. I'm not sure about licensing, but if you have never been formally diagnosed then I suppose that you can answer (technically correctly) that you don't have a history of depression. However, I strongly doubt mentioning a history of depression precludes you from licensure while attempting to lie about or hide it can almost certainly cause you major trouble if you're caught later. In reality I think the likelihood of something coming up is very small based on the info you provided, but the consequences of that something could be very large. It should go unstated, though, that lying - or really anything that might cause suspicion - on a license application would be incredibly stupid.
 
Your acceptance will not be rescinded. Medical schools have no right to demand your medical history as it is protected information and your decision to not disclose it will not harm you. I'm not sure about licensing, but if you have never been formally diagnosed then I suppose that you can answer (technically correctly) that you don't have a history of depression. However, I strongly doubt mentioning a history of depression precludes you from licensure while attempting to lie about or hide it can almost certainly cause you major trouble if you're caught later.

Thanks for the response. I was formally diagnosed with MDD (major depressive disorder), fancy way of saying clinically depressed (I think) and medicated for it, but have been off meds for going on 9 years now.

So it sounds like you're saying I can mark no on medical forms without consequences?

As for licensure or residencies, you're saying that hiding my diagnosis could have severe consequences and that I should come clean. What concerns me is when I read posts like #14 in this thread regarding Texas licensure (just as an example): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=508615

Here's the post:

Our program director (psychiatry) then decided to do a grand rounds on "what's up with the TMB?" and presented even more horror stories. Such as a resident who listed that he had major depression. Simple MDD without psychosis or suicide attempts substance use or medical leaves of absence, that had responded well to meds. The resident had to pay $4K for a forensic psychiatric eval and pee in a cup at random intervals to please the board. Just ridiculous."

So that guy had MDD and had to pay for an expensive forensic psychiatric eval and pee in a cup at random intervals like a criminal. What do you think they'll make someone with MDD and two suicide attempts do?

Edit: I just dread the idea of having to go through the ordeal of showing medical records to a licensing board and having those people know my history.
 
Can I keep this a secret from medical schools and licensing boards without consequences?

I am worried that if I tell the medical school in question, that they will revoke my acceptance.

First, I don't specifically remember answering questions like this in matriculation paperwork, but I'm sure it varies from school to school. Secondly, I would NOT worry about them revoking your acceptance for a health issue you had years ago that has been resolved. That would be ridiculous.


I am also worried that if I answer no to a question like this on the form, and my history later gets out, that they'd yank my license.

This IS a valid concern, lying on those documents for your medical license is a huge problem.

Most people on here tell people to come clean about past institutional actions or criminal records but I haven't done anything wrong in my eyes. I don't feel that the schools or the licensing agencies or residencies have any right to know my personal medical history.

You absolutely haven't done anything wrong, but if you lie on documents that you attest to be telling the truth on, then you will have. Like it or not, your personal medical history is something that you have to disclose if you want your medical license. It's not to punish you or deny you a license for something that happened in your teens- it's so that the organization ensuring that those practicing medicine are safe to do so is aware of physicians that might have extra vulnerabilities or patterns that they need to be aware of. If everything is truly resolved for you, it shouldn't be anything to worry about.
 
First, I don't specifically remember answering questions like this in matriculation paperwork, but I'm sure it varies from school to school. Secondly, I would NOT worry about them revoking your acceptance for a health issue you had years ago that has been resolved. That would be ridiculous.

Thanks for your response. So you're saying I can hide it from them. I just don't want my future attendings during 3rd year to know about it. I have no idea how this information is used or who it is given to. I imagine it might be given to faculty.

This IS a valid concern, lying on those documents for your medical license is a huge problem.

I see. Would the fact that I did not disclose my mental health history on my med school paperwork but did disclose it on licensure come back to haunt me? That would be a discrepancy and discrepancies are bad, but you did say that med schools, unlike licensing boards, don't have any right to know my history, if I understood you correctly.

You absolutely haven't done anything wrong, but if you lie on documents that you attest to be telling the truth on, then you will have. Like it or not, your personal medical history is something that you have to disclose if you want your medical license. It's not to punish you or deny you a license for something that happened in your teens- it's so that the organization ensuring that those practicing medicine are safe to do so is aware of physicians that might have extra vulnerabilities or patterns that they need to be aware of. If everything is truly resolved for you, it shouldn't be anything to worry about.

I see your point on this. I just want to keep as few people as possible from knowing about it because suicide attempts carry a huge stigma.
 
Maybe it won't be as bad as I thought for licensure. I quoted an anecdote of a Texas applicant for licensure having a horrible time, but looking at the Texas physician licensing form for example, they only require you to come clean if it's been in the past 5 years:

"Question 19b(required)
Within the past five (5) years, have you been diagnosed with or have you been treated
for any of the following: schizophrenia or any other psychotic disorder, delusional
disorder, bipolar or manic depressive mood disorder, major depression, personality
disorder, or any other mental condition which impaired your behavior, judgment, or
ability to function in school, work or other important life activities? If you answer "Yes" to
this question, you are required to submit Form W."

I hope other states are similar.
 
So you're saying I can hide it from them.

...I'm not sure where you're getting that from my post. Nor from NickNaylors...

In reality I think the likelihood of something coming up is very small based on the info you provided, but the consequences of that something could be very large. It should go unstated, though, that lying - or really anything that might cause suspicion - on a license application would be incredibly stupid.

So it sounds like you're saying I can mark no on medical forms without consequences?

😕

What I was saying (and I think Nick too) was that it's very unlikely that the medical school WOULD ask that. Have you actually gotten forms that requested that information?

If they did, it's not like the school is going to go broadcasting any of your personal health information around to everyone who interacts with you. They're not going to tell random faculty members. They're not going to tell your 3rd year attendings. Probably the only people who will know are your advisor (who is there to ensure that med school is going ok and that you're dealing well) and maybe the person in charge of academic progress (who talks to you if tests start declining).

However, my medical school didn't ask me any of those questions when I enrolled.

But to summarize: I don't recommend lying. It's not worth it, and if something happened years ago and you're recovered, it's not going to affect you.
 
I see. Would the fact that I did not disclose my mental health history on my med school paperwork but did disclose it on licensure come back to haunt me? That would be a discrepancy and discrepancies are bad, but you did say that med schools, unlike licensing boards, don't have any right to know my history, if I understood you correctly.

Your best bet is just to be honest. Nothing negative is going to happen to you by disclosing that you have this history (though I think it's odd that a school is asking this of you). The only way you can invite trouble is to begin lying about it; then you have to be concerned about keeping your story straight on multiple forms, and as mentioned before, getting caught would bring the smack down on yourself.

I really don't know what you're concerned about. I think you have a huge misunderstanding about what it means to have a history of mental illness and why exactly institutions and licensing boards ask about it.
 
...I'm not sure where you're getting that from my post. Nor from NickNaylors...





😕

Sorry, yes. I confused your post with Nick Naylor's. I was referring to this:

NickNaylor said:
Your acceptance will not be rescinded. Medical schools have no right to demand your medical history as it is protected information and your decision to not disclose it will not harm you.

The part about electing to hide it from the med school not harming me. When I said medical forms, I meant to say medical school forms. I know now that not disclosing it on a license app that asks the question is bad news.

But take Texas, for example. I posted the Texas form question above, with its 5 year limitation. Do you think other state licensing boards have rules similar to Texas, in that if they do ask about these types of questions, that they usually have a time period attached to them? Mine happened much longer ago than that and it will have been an even longer time period by the time I get licensed.
 
State licensing boards will typically require you to consent to release of your medical records.
 
Your best bet is just to be honest. Nothing negative is going to happen to you by disclosing that you have this history (though I think it's odd that a school is asking this of you). The only way you can invite trouble is to begin lying about it; then you have to be concerned about keeping your story straight on multiple forms, and as mentioned before, getting caught would bring the smack down on yourself.

I really don't know what you're concerned about. I think you have a huge misunderstanding about what it means to have a history of mental illness and why exactly institutions and licensing boards ask about it.

No school has asked this of me yet. I saw this thread earlier when I was browsing, and it freaked me out:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=191312

I'm not sure where to post this, but here goes: I've been accepted to medical school and part of the registration is a health history form which asks whether or not I've ever been hospitalized or treated for depression.

I'm not sure if the medical school to which I've been accepted will ultimately send me a form similar to what that incoming MS1 received. If they do, however, I want to be prepared.
My primary concern is people holding it against me. I'm not sure what type of paperwork medical schools and residencies require for applicants. I don't think the licensing is as big of a deal but I mentioned above my fear of disclosing to the medical school above. I don't want the attendings during third year to look at me like I am damaged. If I have to disclose this on ERAS or something similar for residency apps, or on any internal residency paperwork when I arrive at one, I don't want my attendings in residency to know my past.

Basically, I want to keep as few people as possible from knowing my past mental history. The licensing board is not a big issue because I'll likely never meet the people on that board. The medical school and residency issues are more important to me because I don't want them to judge me and think that maybe I'm not cut out for medical school or a competitive residency because of my past. I think I want to go into anesthesia and pain management, for example. I don't want attendings to be worried that because of my past experiences with tylenol, that I'm not cut out to be around strong painkillers and anesthetics, and dismiss me from the residency.
 
State licensing boards will typically require you to consent to release of your medical records.

Thanks for the response. I'm curious as to how this requirement would relate to records on file with psychiatrists and the psychiatric ward of a hospital from 10 years ago. They wouldn't know where the records are and if I answer the questions honestly on the licensing forms, I don't see the problem. Do boards typically ask you to send medical records from every physician and hospital that I've ever visited?

I will also say that I have been mildly to moderately depressed for the past 10 years. No suicidal ideations, but just a general depression. I have been reluctant to seek treatment for it because then it brings the issue from the past into the present. If I start seeing a psychiatrist to get back on an SSRI, then it's no longer in the past, and I have to worry about finding all those records and people finding out.
 
I think licensure boards are worried about untreated mental health problems.

It'd be interesting to see what Form W was from above, for Texas licensure.

Hopefully a resident or attending will see this thread.
 
I will also say that I have been mildly to moderately depressed for the past 10 years. No suicidal ideations, but just a general depression. I have been reluctant to seek treatment for it because then it brings the issue from the past into the present. If I start seeing a psychiatrist to get back on an SSRI, then it's no longer in the past, and I have to worry about finding all those records and people finding out.

I just wanted to say that this is a dangerous way to think, especially as you're about to start something as stressful as medical school. Fear that you'll have to fill out some boxes on some forms is NO REASON to not get treatment for the issues you need help with. Having your depression under control is really important, and as long as you're actively getting help and managing it well, there won't be any problems with licensing. If you're hiding it based on some inflated fear of what can happen, that is when you start getting into real problems. Don't let things get to a bad place before you address them- THAT is the kind of behavior licensing boards would be concerned with.

TONS of medical students are on medication for depression. It's not as uncommon as you think.
 
I just wanted to say that this is a dangerous way to think, especially as you're about to start something as stressful as medical school. Fear that you'll have to fill out some boxes on some forms is NO REASON to not get treatment for the issues you need help with. Having your depression under control is really important, and as long as you're actively getting help and managing it well, there won't be any problems with licensing. If you're hiding it based on some inflated fear of what can happen, that is when you start getting into real problems. Don't let things get to a bad place before you address them- THAT is the kind of behavior licensing boards would be concerned with.

TONS of medical students are on medication for depression. It's not as uncommon as you think.

Yep, come clean! The above is reasonable thought.. 👍

In this litiginous field: You dont want to be in front of an interview commitee or a board claiming eg:

"I didnt know" , "Im sorry", Bowing down and saying "Im really a nice guy" Any myriad of reasons and excuses! And for the love of G-d.. you dont want to be in the situation mentioning "suicidal ideation"..All of this looks lame or bad..

Come clean and there is one less hurdle you have to jump!
And you will avoid embarrasing/awkward situations!
 
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i would say it is definitely a lot more important to get your depression under control. these are not things that would be advertised to attendings or anyone you work with. med school is hard enough without having to deal with untreated depression on top of it. mental health issues are tough but they are not your fault and hiding them may make med school harder, much harder. get the help you need, if you need it, and do your best to stay on top of your work in school.
i have never been asked on a form for matriculation about mental health issues, unless you mean that pre school physical thing. and even then i dont know if there was anythign there. even if there is, it is porbably just for student health since they will be taking care of you for the next 4 years.
 
Do not lie. Lying is a professionalism violation and professionalism violations are grounds for dismissal. Schools cannot access medical records without a patient's consent. Doing so is a violation of HIPPA.

Depression is not a rarity in med school, lots of students and residents experience some form of depression. There are several studies out there concerning this. Check out:
Acad Med. 2009 Feb;84(2):236-41.
Depressive symptoms in medical students and residents: a multischool study.
Goebert D, Thompson D, Take****a J, Beach C, Bryson P, Ephgrave K, Kent A, Kunkel M, Schechter J, Tate J.

It is unlikely that the school will ask but if they do, tell them the truth. They will not revoke your acceptance. Doing so is probably an ADA violation. Schools are concerned about the well being of their students. 5 or so years ago, a student here committed suicide, 3 years ago, an intern did. Institutions do not want this to happen.

The thing you need to worry about is how you will deal with the stressors of med school. Start formulating a plan now, and that may require a psychiatrist or a psychologist. Don't worry about having to check a box in the future. You will not be the first to check it nor the last.

Don't be ashamed. Lot of people in the medical field have or have had some form of depression. My institution has counselors that are free to the students and hospital employees for this reason. If you need help, get it.
 
I've seen attendings, fellows, medical students etc under treatment on inpatient psychiatry for frank psychosis, schizophrenia, MDD, mood disorders, you name it.

You really shouldn't worry about this. It's not a big deal. If those guys were able to get licensed (and keep it) you're fine.
 
Try to keep it off official records. Residencies will discriminate against candidates who have mental illness.
 
Thanks for the response. I'm curious as to how this requirement would relate to records on file with psychiatrists and the psychiatric ward of a hospital from 10 years ago. They wouldn't know where the records are and if I answer the questions honestly on the licensing forms, I don't see the problem. Do boards typically ask you to send medical records from every physician and hospital that I've ever visited?

I will also say that I have been mildly to moderately depressed for the past 10 years. No suicidal ideations, but just a general depression. I have been reluctant to seek treatment for it because then it brings the issue from the past into the present. If I start seeing a psychiatrist to get back on an SSRI, then it's no longer in the past, and I have to worry about finding all those records and people finding out.

If you are feeling depressed, you should seek help. The medical education pathway can push people with a very healthy psychological baseline to the breaking point.

Your health is most important. Keep that as priority number 1.

No school is going to kick you out, or fail to accept you, for getting help.

Rule number 2 is do not lie. The world of hurt that can bring in the context of medicine is massive.
 
If I recall correctly, the application for my state license only asked if you had a medical/psychiatric condition that can affect your ability to practice medicine safely (or something to that tone). A lot of the questions also ask "in the past x years.." with x being no more than 5 or so.
 
You were a kid, you're fine. Don't even worry about it. I the future, answer exactly the question asked and nothing more. And if you need more treatment for depression, that is Nbd either. Lots of people do.
 
II agree with most of what's been said in this thread. f you lie about it and deny it when asked for licensure or whatever then you ARE doing something at that point that would cause you to be denied a license and get you into legal trouble. Like you said already, some states just ask in the past 5 years. Just be honest about it. Med school isn't going to ask you or rescind your admittance. The boards will just want to see you getting any appropriate care for it.

If you try to commit suicide again though or your depression seriously causes you to dangerously treat patients then obviously that would cause some issues. If you are prone to such serious depression I would highly advise that you see health professionals as soon as you start feeling bad in medical school (which you probably will). Getting overly stressed and depressed without asking for help immediately is probably how most students end up failing out.
 
I'm glad to hear that you've got the courage to bring this very personal part of your history to this forum. SDN can be a pretty unkind place for sensitive issues. I will offer what my most recent experiences in credentialing have shown:

A lot more people will see what's on a criminal background check than any other part of your med school file. A classic that comes up a lot is DUIs. The lowest-level clerk that takes care of the faxes at individual doctor's offices will usually see the background check first and may not have the class to keep it in your file and not blab about it to the office. For hospitals and medical centers you will work in for years 3 and 4 as well as any time after that, their respective credentialing office will usually get this stuff and revealing any of this stuff to anyone that is not supposed to see it is an immediate terminable offense.

Case in point, though, one of my closest friends that I did the same rotation a couple of months after he did had a DUI. He was an outstanding student and clinician, but a clerk that I was talking with one day asked "so, what's up with X?" I wasn't sure what she was talking about and she then proceeded to ask me why a nice guy like that had a DUI. I felt like crap for the guy after that, but knew what could happen if I screwed up while in med school. Run a background and credit check on yourself as soon as you can to see what you're up against. This is the company I see used most often:

http://www.firstcheck.com/

An involuntary incarceration with police involved (i.e. 5150) may show up on this. If you admitted yourself or were brought in by your parents or friends, it definitely should not.

Once you enter medical school, the next system you will be using is ERAS.

From my records, the Licensure Information section asks the following:

Has your medical license ever been suspended/revoked/voluntarily terminated?

Have you been named in a malpractice case?

Is there anything in your past history that would limit your ability to be licensed or would limit your ability to receive hospital privileges?

Have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor in the United States?

Have you ever been convicted of a felony in the United States?

The Misc. area only asks the following:

Are you able to carry out the responsibilities of a resident, intern, or fellow in the specialties and at the specific training programs to which you are applying, including the functional requirements, cognitive requirements, interpersonal and communication requirements, and attendance requirements with or without reasonable accommodations? *

Was your medical education/training extended or interrupted?

If you've been diagnosed and treated for anything mental illness (MI) related, you do not need to name anything. They're looking to catch undiagnosed stuff early before it can be a liability for them, and that's all. I've had light-hearted discussions with people at my level of training and above and they have no problem talking about their SSRIs or ADD stuff although I wouldn't self-disclose anything to anyone that you wouldn't want posted in the break room.

Depending upon the state and program, you may either when you start your internship or, more likely, when you start the year after your Internship be required to disclose a bit more. I think a good guideline would be the requirement to list any MI you're being treated for within the last 5 years. Resist the temptation to be off your meds from your UG graduation date through medical school to just barely get under that requirement. Do a spot check with your mental health provider in your last year of UG and tell him/her that you're going to medical school and want to be sure that you nip anything in the bud now that could be worsened with the stress and fatigue of medical school. Get treated with anticipatory guidance, counseling and any medication adjustments and be on your way to being a successful doctor. Make sure you contact someone close to your school to establish medical and mental health care before you leave for school so you'll have good continuity of care when you actually begin your coursework.

Many more students than you think hit a wall both mentally and physically when they start medical school and the responsible program directors (PDs) will be glad to see that you've disclosed stuff now. The ones looking to nail you on things now that do illegal stuff to get at parts of your records are not the ones you want to be working for. The same goes for states with super strict rules on just about anything. The chances of the PDs seeing it are actually fairly remote, as your licensing stuff goes through the credentialing office and your PD only gets notified if you've committed something egregious in nature or are otherwise unable to be credentialed to work at day 1.

Here's a good link to find out state specific information:

http://www.fsmb.org/fcvs_state_specific_req.html

Even if you're nowhere near ready to use FVCS, it is handy because it links you directly to the state licensing board's website.

I've seen what having marks on your background check can do to your reputation, no matter how much you would like to keep it private. I've seen nervous students drinking a ton of water the week before the pre-clinical drug and background checks are done. I've lost or almost lost several good friends that had a mental breakdown in med school and treated themselves by abusing alcohol or illicit drugs. If it can happen to someone in med school, it may have happened to the person sitting next to you and I hope this helps.
 
This is no ones business, but your own. I don't think its something to hide or be ashamed of either though you were a teenager.

Just try not to get back to this place under the stress of med school as like 400 docs a year commit suicide, like 1/133 lcme accredited schools offing themselves a year. And unfortunately its inappropriate and blunt treatment like this questionairre that kind of defines being a med student on rotations.

Just recognize your own breaking points and seek out personal or professional (private outside the school) help if you feel this low again. Attending Physician competency, when its not there, isn't because they are ODing on tylenol in the middle of managing a patient.
 
I made a new account just to post this:

Ohio's Addendum specifically asks "Within the last ten years, have you been diagnosed with or have you been treated for, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, paranoia, or any other psychotic disorder" and "Have you, since attaining the age of eighteen or within the last ten years, whichever period is shorter, been admitted to a hospital or other facility for the treatment of bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, paranoia, or any other psychotic disorder".

The next section goes on to ask about dates of dx, tx, current condition, contacts of providers, facilities, reason for treatment, as well as physician letters.

The reason I post this is severalfold - other states may have similar questions on addenda, I want to share something to watch out for, and how even in worse circumstances (my experience) things will be okay.

Medical school is stressful. Please be very careful to take care of yourself physically and mentally, including a strong support system, which will make it less likely you will have any psychotic disorders. Major depressive disorder with psychosis is a psychotic disorder that you want to avoid.. I've read through the legal proceedings of physicians who had licensure issues related to mental illness - unipolar depression was not in any of those proceedings.

I had depression in high school which was misdiagnosed and later corrected to bipolar disorder with psychosis, after leaves of absence DURING medical school. This came on after an all-nighter, having a friend drive me to the hospital, and then signing voluntary admission forms. An impulsive suicide attempt also occurred in the ER.

Fortunately after I was hospitalized I was able to score above average on Step 1, and complete my third year and the beginning of my fourth year successfully. This included q6-7d call on my OB-GYN rotation, and Sub-internship, both of which had calls close to 30 hours long. Now I have 15 interviews in the two specialties I am applying to, including several top choices. This is despite one of the associate deans knowing my situation and not believing I could finish my third year. Same dean recommended I disclose my diagnosis to residency programs, but as ijn suggested, there is still stigma, so it's really a complicated decision. I did not disclose my diagnosis but vaguely mentioned a health problem on my application for residencies.

Please ask me any questions you might have, and please take good care of yourself and learn from my experience so you don't have to go through the same thing.
 
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