Incoming MS1, doing medicine because I have no other choice?

[stay_foolish]

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If you have undergrad with strong Math or Engineering background, I would have suggested something else. Congrats for getting into medical college. 10-20 years from now, on a relative scale with other occupations and your current peers, you'll still feel a lot better that you pursued Medicine. By the way, after getting MD, you can still do research or be in academics or work in R&D of a Pharma company ( The CEO of Novartis has only MD with no MBA ) or do well paying Admissions counselling.

 

[Kubizk]

What specialty did you choose? Are you still in school? If so, cut the freakin drama out man. 3 more years or so is peanuts. Choose your specialty wisely and residency doesn’t have to suck

And you say you’re from a wealthy family….use m4 to travel…

All in all for you it could be at most 2 years of your 20s that suck. Do you really think that’s the end of the world? And does it truly have to suck or cant you at least engage in some kind of weekly hobby or have fun after exams? Are you sure your efforts are well-concentrated, or are you killing your mental well being or burning out by trying to get a xyz score on something, which may not even pan out anyway or make getting a high score not worth it

You only have to pass step 1. In truth you may not even need to kill step 2 either for a decent specialty

Thanks 4 the advice .
Still in school because of lack of $$$ and concrete plan of action. My hobbies and interests are very time consuming. They're in business, sport, and art/creative things. They also require that I be well rested and get decent amount of sleep consistently, which I found almost impossible during my clinical rotations.
I'm only imagining that residency will be a longer and worse version of 3rd year on top of the politics and BS of the hospital.
Another important thing I'm realizing is that I hate being an employee especially in a highly scrutinized and micromanaged position like being a resident. Not to mention I have the tendency of questioning authority and refuse to do things I find useless. I pretty much don't fit the profile for being a physician.


Yes "two years" is a big deal if you factor in that I will be 30+ when I finish the shortest residencies. You also have to factor in the opportunity lost in business and the mental anguish from sacrificing my other interest for 3+ years.

My extended family is big and fragmented.
My immediate family is not wealthy. My father died back home and never saved money. My mom makes like 35K here in the US.
So, it's sink or swim for me.

I am faced with the choice between my life and medicine. This sucks because I actually love some aspect of medicine, but it's just unfortunate that I virtually have to give up on pursuing other things seriously.

Oh no. I'm not even gunning for high scores. I do the bare minimum to pass my classes and only put in effort in topics I find interesting. I put in a lot of effort in research I would admit, but that's because I actually enjoy it. I even think of going into research, but I hate the admin part, grant begging, and the pressure to publish I see in academia.

I try not to have regrets, but not doing enough research before going the premed route is probably my biggest regret. My mental health is at an all time low. I'm trying to stay positive and creative, but 3rd year is making it extremely difficult.

LoL I'm turning this into my journal.
Seriously though.
Medical training is tough and has sucked the life out of my lazy and undisciplined ass.
We'll see how things pan.

 

[LucidSplash]

Thanks 4 the advice .
Still in school because of lack of $$$ and concrete plan of action. My hobbies and interests are very time consuming. They're in business, sport, and art/creative things. They also require that I be well rested and get decent amount of sleep consistently, which I found almost impossible during my clinical rotations.
I'm only imagining that residency will be a longer and worse version of 3rd year on top of the politics and BS of the hospital.
Another important thing I'm realizing is that I hate being an employee especially in a highly scrutinized and micromanaged position like being a resident. Not to mention I have the tendency of questioning authority and refuse to do things I find useless. I pretty much don't fit the profile for being a physician.


Yes "two years" is a big deal if you factor in that I will be 30+ when I finish the shortest residencies. You also have to factor in the opportunity lost in business and the mental anguish from sacrificing my other interest for 3+ years.

My extended family is big and fragmented.
My immediate family is not wealthy. My father died back home and never saved money. My mom makes like 35K here in the US.
So, it's sink or swim for me.

I am faced with the choice between my life and medicine. This sucks because I actually love some aspect of medicine, but it's just unfortunate that I virtually have to give up on pursuing other things seriously.

Oh no. I'm not even gunning for high scores. I do the bare minimum to pass my classes and only put in effort in topics I find interesting. I put in a lot of effort in research I would admit, but that's because I actually enjoy it. I even think of going into research, but I hate the admin part, grant begging, and the pressure to publish I see in academia.

I try not to have regrets, but not doing enough research before going the premed route is probably my biggest regret. My mental health is at an all time low. I'm trying to stay positive and creative, but 3rd year is making it extremely difficult.

LoL I'm turning this into my journal.
Seriously though.
Medical training is tough and has sucked the life out of my lazy and undisciplined ass.
We'll see how things pan.

Oh noes, 30+ when finishing residency. Early career attending over here 42 who did 9 years of surgery training AND took 3 years off between college and med school, and I can’t roll my eyes hard enough at the implication that life as you know it won’t begin until done with training or that the “good” parts of life are over after 20s-30s.

This most recent posts of yours is full of self-pity and completely at odds with your prior post where you essentially told the OP to suck it up, somewhat appropriately honestly. Was all of that a facade?

As someone who also did not come from a wealthy family and had it “sink or swim” as you describe it, I think your attitude as expressed in this most recent post is going to keep you from being happy in medicine or any other career. Happiness is a ****ing choice for people like us dude. I like my job but even if I didn’t, I like it a hell of a lot more than the kind of financial insecurity I grew up with. Even a lower paying specialty is going to give you a better QOL than most people who grew up in our tax bracket. You have the academic skills to pursue something like this. Very few of humans “like” everything about being an employee or some of the drudgery associated with being employed like protocols and procedures that may seem useless. Very few American adults maintain 5+ hobbies even if they aren’t doctors, because kids/family, and being a real adult get in the way of being millionaire playboys/girls. You get to pick 1-2 that you can really commit to even if you aren’t in medicine. Europeans work a lot less and might have more hobbies but also accept that this includes less $$ than Americans in the top tax brackets are used to, but they have the benefit of not having to worry about insane healthcare costs. So unless you have the connections/means to move to Europe or Australia/NZ, you are stuck figuring out how to build a decent life here in the US.

Maturing is learning to pick your battles, knowing that all of us do SOME things that we don’t think are useful so we can pursue meaningful change when the situation really calls for it AND keep our jobs and put food on the table. My thing is travel and the 3-4 trips I take/year sure soften the blow of a lot of corporate nonsense. Pick 1-2 hobbies; very few adults get to have more than that unless they are independently wealthy.

I have made an entire life of adjusting my viewpoint to the life I have, not the life I thought I’d have in my 30s and 40s when I was in my 20s. MOST PEOPLE DO. This whole self-pity routine about the mental anguish of “sacrificing your life” for the opportunity of a higher paying career than most people can aspire to is pretty immature and lacks perspective. Usually people who don’t grow up wealthy understand that most people don’t get the privilege of loving your job. I would suggest looking into residencies that give you a reasonable QOL like PM&R. If you don’t want to do medicine, and you want to pursue business, then go get an MBA instead of finishing med school. Or you can always do it later after training, like I did, which can open doors into non-clinical roles. I also suggest you look in the mirror and put on your big kid pants and cut the self-pity routine or you will never be happy in any career. Even if you switch to business, most people without the ability to fall back on nepotism spend awhile in the trenches in a lower paying job working “for the man” while they try to climb the corporate ladder or save up enough to start their side hustle in real estate or whatever. With a bachelor’s degree, you can get an entry level job as a bank teller or secretary/assistant if you have reasonable word processing and spreadsheet technology skills and get your feet wet and make contacts and find mentors in whatever industry you want to enter and then figure out what opportunities there are from the inside of a company while you get an MBA or even another bachelors if that’s what it takes to get into the field you want to be in.

You have the intelligence and the time to pursue whatever you want to do. You just have to mentally get out of your own way and choose a course and decide to be happy, given you already have more going for you than a large portion of the population.

 

[Kubizk]

Oh noes, 30+ when finishing residency. Early career attending over here 42 who did 9 years of surgery training AND took 3 years off between college and med school, and I can’t roll my eyes hard enough at the implication that life as you know it won’t begin until done with training or that the “good” parts of life are over after 20s-30s.

This most recent posts of yours is full of self-pity and completely at odds with your prior post where you essentially told the OP to suck it uo, somewhat appropriately honestly. Was all of that a facade?

As someone who also did not come from a wealthy family and had it “sink or swim” as you describe it, I think your attitude as expressed in this most recent post is going to keep you from being happy in medicine or any other career. Happiness is a ****ing choice for people like us dude. I like my job but even if I didn’t, I like it a hell of a lot more than the kind of financial insecurity I grew up with. Even a lower paying specialty is going to give you a better QOL than most people who grew up in our tax bracket. You have the academic skills to pursue something like this. Very few of humans “like” everything about being an employee or some of the drudgery associated with being employed like protocols and procedures that may seem useless. Very few American adults maintain 5+ hobbies even if they aren’t doctors, because kids/family, and being a real adult get in the way of being millionaire playboys/girls. You get to pick 1-2 that you can really commit to even if you aren’t in medicine. Europeans work a lot less and might have more hobbies but also accept that this includes less $$ than Americans in the top tax brackets are used to, but they have the benefit of not having to worry about insane healthcare costs. So unless you have the connections/means to move to Europe or Australia/NZ, you are stuck figuring out how to build a decent life here in the US.

Maturing is learning to pick your battles, knowing that all of us do SOME things that we don’t think are useful so we can pursue meaningful change when the situation really calls for it AND keep our jobs and put food on the table. My thing is travel and the 3-4 trips I take/year sure soften the blow of a lot of corporate nonsense. Pick 1-2 hobbies; very few adults get to have more than that unless they are independently wealthy.

I have made an entire life of adjusting my viewpoint to the life I have, not the life I thought I’d have in my 30s and 40s when I was in my 20s. MOST PEOPLE DO. This whole self-pity routine about the mental anguish of “sacrificing your life” for the opportunity of a higher paying career than most people can aspire to is pretty immature and lacks perspective. Usually people who don’t grow up wealthy understand that most people don’t get the privilege of loving your job. I would suggest looking into residencies that give you a reasonable QOL like PM&R. If you don’t want to do medicine, and you want to pursue business, then go get an MBA instead of finishing med school. Or you can always do it later after training, like I did, which can open doors into non-clinical roles. I also suggest you look in the mirror and put on your big kid pants and cut the self-pity routine or you will never be happy in any career. Even if you switch to business, most people without the ability to fall back on nepotism spend awhile in the trenches in a lower paying job working “for the man” while they try to climb the corporate ladder or save up enough to start their side hustle in real estate or whatever. With a bachelor’s degree, you can get an entry level job as a bank teller or secretary/assistant if you have reasonable word processing and spreadsheet technology skills and get your feet wet and make contacts and find mentors in whatever industry you want to enter and then figure out what opportunities there are from the inside of a company while you get an MBA or even another bachelors if that’s what it takes to get into the field you want to be in.

You have the intelligence and the time to pursue whatever you want to do. You just have to mentally get out of your own way and choose a course and decide to be happy, given you already have more going for you than a large portion of the population.

Thanks Chief for your practical advice and sharing your own perspective on things.

You're right regarding making sacrifices. I'm willing to make sacrifice if I know that the reward will be worth it. I'm willing to work for the man for a while to raise $$$ for my side hustle. That's been my plan since the second semester of med school. I plan on graduating and working for the man for a little bit just to do that. Being a physician is not really a reward worth the effort personally for me. I love patient care and the science. I just hate the rest that comes with it.


I think there's a misunderstanding.
I never encouraged OP to pursue medicine.
It was the opposite actually.
I told him to quit and that his life would not be over because he's poor. I even stated that I was much happier sleeping outside as a homeless than I currently am as medical student.
I'm further pushing the anti medicine narrative by stating how much it sucks.

Yes we both have the sink or swim mentality, but you value money more than I do.
Additionally, you're more compliant and willing to compromise your values for money. Or maybe financial security and its benefits are your ultimate values, and in that case you would not really be compromising your values. You have my outmost respect.


I personally don't care that much about financial security.I don't plan on living past a certain age if I don't reach some of the lofty goals I have regarding my entrepreneurial aspirations. I don't plan on having a family or even a gf. Hence why every second of my life is precious, especially in my 20-30s. People can cope as much as they want, but personally, I have yet to see a 60 yo individual that makes me want to live up to that age. So yes, I'm one of those people that believe that life pretty much ends at around 45-55 with some rare exceptions. You can understand why I value time more than anything. I understand how little of it I have. Not to mention financial security becomes a bigger problem when you're older and weaker. So that's not really a problem I plan on having.


Regarding QOL, my QOL mine would be much better as a self employed person clearing 3-5K per month grinding to make it big while having decent to good control of schedule than an employed physician working 50 hours a week making 30k/month coming home exhausted and only living for the weekend and the occasional 1-2 week holiday with the family 3-4 times per year. I'd rather book a one way trip to visit my ancestors if you know what I mean...



Pardon me because I'm gonna go off. This is a philosophical topic that is dear to my heart.
I hate the type of life you described. I hate tolerating BS just because most people do it or because "that's just the way things are". I hate the rationalization of a suboptimal life with "well most jobs sucks anyway, and people just do it" "Every job comes with its BS"
What you're describing as adulting is mostly just a form of extortion from financial/familial obligations. Most adults doing what you describe as adulting would quit doing if they won the lottery. So it's not intrinsic to being an adult but more so the consequences of the responsibilities that come with it.

My favorite thing to say is what if Martin Luther King said "well that's just the way things are, and we have to accept it." . No he is was willing to challenge the status quo. The vast majority of people fail, and I'm well aware of it.

I do not tolerate the status quo because I have literally nothing to lose and everything to gain if I succeed. It's like gambling with a bonus from the house.

That's the thing I didn't make clear.
I have nothing to lose. I don't see any value in a life where I'm making excessive compromises. I'm no longer living for my life but that of someone else at that point.
That is why I kept on emphasizing to Op that this is his life and should live it as he wants, and not as others are telling him to.

That's my sink or swim. I either make it or I just enjoy life a little a while a book my one way trip to visit my ancestors .
I'm not that attached to life as most people because again I am not close to my family or plan on having a family that would pretty much hold me captive in a life I hate because I need to provide or be there for them. I am lucky to have that freedom.

I apologized if this came off as rude, and it wasn't my intention. This is just one of the things I'm passionate about.

 

[LucidSplash]

Thanks Chief for your practical advice and sharing your own perspective on things.

You're right regarding making sacrifices. I'm willing to make sacrifice if I know that the reward will be worth it. I'm willing to work for the man for a while to raise $$$ for my side hustle. That's been my plan since the second semester of med school. I plan on graduating and working for the man for a little bit just to do that. Being a physician is not really a reward worth the effort personally for me. I love patient care and the science. I just hate the rest that comes with it.


I think there's a misunderstanding.
I never encouraged OP to pursue medicine.
It was the opposite actually.
I told him to quit and that his life would not be over because he's poor. I even stated that I was much happier sleeping outside as a homeless than I currently am as medical student.
I'm further pushing the anti medicine narrative by stating how much it sucks.

Yes we both have the sink or swim mentality, but you value money more than I do.
Additionally, you're more compliant and willing to compromise your values for money. Or maybe financial security and its benefits are your ultimate values, and in that case you would not really be compromising your values. You have my outmost respect.


I personally don't care that much about financial security.I don't plan on living past a certain age if I don't reach some of the lofty goals I have regarding my entrepreneurial aspirations. I don't plan on having a family or even a gf. Hence why every second of my life is precious, especially in my 20-30s. People can cope as much as they want, but personally, I have yet to see a 60 yo individual that makes me want to live up to that age. So yes, I'm one of those people that believe that life pretty much ends at around 45-55 with some rare exceptions. You can understand why I value time more than anything. I understand how little of it I have. Not to mention financial security becomes a bigger problem when you're older and weaker. So that's not really a problem I plan on having.


Regarding QOL, my QOL mine would be much better as a self employed person clearing 3-5K per month grinding to make it big while having decent to good control of schedule than an employed physician working 50 hours a week making 30k/month coming home exhausted and only living for the weekend and the occasional 1-2 week holiday with the family 3-4 times per year. I'd rather book a one way trip to visit my ancestors if you know what I mean...



Pardon me because I'm gonna go off. This is a philosophical topic that is dear to my heart.
I hate the type of life you described. I hate tolerating BS just because most people do it or because "that's just the way things are". I hate the rationalization of a suboptimal life with "well most jobs sucks anyway, and people just do it" "Every job comes with its BS"
What you're describing as adulting is mostly just a form of extortion from financial/familial obligations. Most adults doing what you describe as adulting would quit doing if they won the lottery. So it's not intrinsic to being an adult but more so the consequences of the responsibilities that come with it.

My favorite thing to say is what if Martin Luther King said "well that's just the way things are, and we have to accept it." . No he is was willing to challenge the status quo. The vast majority of people fail, and I'm well aware of it.

I do not tolerate the status quo because I have literally nothing to lose and everything to gain if I succeed. It's like gambling with a bonus from the house.

That's the thing I didn't make clear.
I have nothing to lose. I don't see any value in a life where I'm making excessive compromises. I'm no longer living for my life but that of someone else at that point.
That is why I kept on emphasizing to Op that this is his life and should live it as he wants, and not as others are telling him to.

That's my sink or swim. I either make it or I just enjoy life a little a while a book my one way trip to visit my ancestors .
I'm not that attached to life as most people because again I am not close to my family or plan on having a family that would pretty much hold me captive in a life I hate because I need to provide or be there for them. I am lucky to have that freedom.

I apologized if this came off as rude, and it wasn't my intention. This is just one of the things I'm passionate about.

Then why are you still in medical school? I didn’t say you told the OP to stay in medicine, but you did essentially tell them to suck it up and make their own life decisions. But that last post of yours talked about deciding between your life and medicine, which seems at odds with that advice.

I think you misunderstood what I told you about myself. One, I’m happy on my job. So I’m not making myself miserable for money. But yes, financial security give me choices that I didn’t have without it, and also provides me the ability to help my nephews achieve educational goals otherwise difficult or inaccessible for them. But as I said, my thing is travel and I get to do that too. But I haven’t compromised my values and certainly as a vascular surgeon I can think of no one who has described me as compliant. I have been working fulltime locums the last 2 years because I don’t compromise my professional values, which extend far beyond financial security.

It sounds like you plan a life devoid of responsibility to others, and if that’s your thing I have no issues with that if you’re otherwise self sufficient. The caveat being that unless you plan on being some kind of off the grid prepper, modern civilization turns on the concept that we are all somewhat responsible and dependent on one another for society to function. I see no difference in saying something is intrinsic to being a mature adult vs the responsibilities that come with being an adult. These are synonymous to me.

And I continue to believe that your outlook is what will make you miserable in any career/job/pursuit. You’ll always be upset at some BS and the fact is that disappointments and frustrations and BS happen to everyone. Unless you go off grid. If you really believe the above post you made, I don’t see why you are still in med school because of $$, as you stated in that prior post.

 

[Kubizk]

Then why are you still in medical school?

There are multiple reasons
The main ones are
-Time to strategize while getting stipend
-Networking
-I do actually like the science of medicine and love meeting new people and talking to patients. That's the thing I will miss the most. I really love the people aspect of medicine and seeing people getting better. So I'm trying to milk it as long as I can. It is really a shame and makes me sad that will leave medicine when I think of those things.
-Getting the degree from a brand name institution and then leveraging it later since we live in a superficial world where many people think that brand name school = smart, trustworthy, and hard working

So as you can see, I'm willing to make sacrifice if the reward makes sense to me.

I'm well aware that I will most like make significantly less money than my peers in medicine and that my entrepreneurial endeavors will most likely fail despite numerous hardous efforts, but in my biased opinion, freedom is worth more than anything, including my own life.

 

[LucidSplash]

There are multiple reasons
The main ones are
-Time to strategize while getting stipend
-Networking
-I do actually like the science of medicine and love meeting new people and talking to patients. That's the thing I will miss the most. I really love the people aspect of medicine and seeing people getting better. So I'm trying to milk it as long as I can. It is really a shame and makes me sad that will leave medicine when I think of those things.
-Getting the degree from a brand name institution and then leveraging it later since we live in a superficial world where many people think that brand name school = smart, trustworthy, and hard working

So as you can see, I'm willing to make sacrifice if the reward makes sense to me.

I'm well aware that I will most like make significantly less money than my peers in medicine and that my entrepreneurial endeavors will most likely fail despite numerous hardous efforts, but in my biased opinion, freedom is worth more than anything, including my own life.

I think we have different definitions of freedom. To me, freedom is choice and options; money is useful in that affords me more choices than I have without it, and also gives others who I care about more choice and options as well.

I wish you well. But I’m not sure your current path is in any way likely to meet your goals as you have stated them. Godspeed.

 

[operaman]

I think we have different definitions of freedom. To me, freedom is choice and options; money is useful in that affords me more choices than I have without it, and also gives others who I care about more choice and options as well.

I wish you well. But I’m not sure your current path is in any way likely to meet your goals as you have stated them. Godspeed.

I used to have that freedom uber alles mentality back in the day, but then I discovered that all my friends weren’t available to do stuff with young free me at 11am on a Wednesday. So even when I was self employed and had tons of freedom, I was somewhat limited in that everyone else around me had work and other obligations. Nowadays I don’t really feel like my work precludes me from doing anything I want to do because everyone I know is also busy, so we hang out and do stuff afterwards.

 

[RangerBob]

I personally don't care that much about financial security.I don't plan on living past a certain age if I don't reach some of the lofty goals I have regarding my entrepreneurial aspirations. I don't plan on having a family or even a gf. Hence why every second of my life is precious, especially in my 20-30s. People can cope as much as they want, but personally, I have yet to see a 60 yo individual that makes me want to live up to that age. So yes, I'm one of those people that believe that life pretty much ends at around 45-55 with some rare exceptions. You can understand why I value time more than anything. I understand how little of it I have. Not to mention financial security becomes a bigger problem when you're older and weaker. So that's not really a problem I plan on having.


Regarding QOL, my QOL mine would be much better as a self employed person clearing 3-5K per month grinding to make it big while having decent to good control of schedule than an employed physician working 50 hours a week making 30k/month coming home exhausted and only living for the weekend and the occasional 1-2 week holiday with the family 3-4 times per year. I'd rather book a one way trip to visit my ancestors if you know what I mean...

My friend, your statements here are concerning. It would be worth talking to someone about this more.

Our jobs and age do not define us.

It is who we are and the people we surround ourselves with that do.

If your path to true joy is such a lonely one, as it can be for a select few, then no one will force you to do otherwise. But the majority of the world finds their joy in relationships to the people around them, and not their wealth or occupation. And these relationships become better with age.

The meaning of who we are goes deeper than what we do. Consider looking outside of work for your true meaning and joy--I felt far freer myself when I did so.

 

[Robin-jay]

The worst part is that as you get older, you start to really think about things like money, career aspects, lost wages, etc.

Many medical students that start at 22-23 years old right out of their bachelors are just going through the motions and not spending their energy on such concepts.

When you get old, life just tends to get more complicated.

I'm in my 30's now, and life is much more complex than my 20's. I'm glad I'm a resident now. If I was a student at this point, I'd honestly just go insane. After getting my paychecks in residency, I'm now addicted to making money and staying away from loans. But even residency is annoying, I really want attending physician cash and the ability to live where I want.

I'd never take out another loan in my entire life.

 

[karaya]

My favorite thing to say is what if Martin Luther King said "well that's just the way things are, and we have to accept it." . No he is was willing to challenge the status quo. The vast majority of people fail, and I'm well aware of it.

Aligning yourself with MLK is a wild move... you're advocating the self-made "hustler" lifestyle, not American civil rights. Status quo has got nothing to do with it

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

I am faced with the choice between my life and medicine. This sucks because I actually love some aspect of medicine, but it's just unfortunate that I virtually have to give up on pursuing other things seriously.

Your patients who will depend on you deserve that; society rewards you for it. That is not a compromise; it's a transaction. If you think the process is rigid, it's because the consequences are dire.

 

[DogRescuer]

There are 100's of ways to make great money. And many are more secure and a lot less work. Start your own business. Learn a trade, build houses. Get a computer science degree, paying 130k out of college. Go into sales. Get an MBA and go into management consulting. Go to law school. Study finance. But what ever you do you will NOT be successful unless you are passionate about what you are doing. People can read disdain all over your face. Do not spend a third of a million dollars to go to med school!!!