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Ahnold

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Hello all, I am new to this forum so have mercy. Anyways, I'm 22 and got accepted at WesternU in California. All my academic career I was deadset on becoming a pharmacist, but it seems to me that recently **** has hit the fan and its only going to get worst. WesternU tuition is something like 48k a year, which is ridiculous I think. I'm pretty young right now so i still have time, would some of you more experienced pharmacists be able to give me some advice? It's pretty much WesternU for pharmacy, or taking a year off and then applying for a PA program at this point. Financial security is as important to me as a fulfilling career, I don't want to have 200k+ in loans with no realistic means of paying it off. Any type of advice is helpful.
 
What you said is exactly correct. Pharmacy is a terrible investment of your tuition money due to the poor job security you get in exchange for having to graduate with an astronomical amount of loans.

Aside from PA, there are other great professions out there, i.e. computer programming, finance, accounting, engineering, etc. that provide better job prospects without you having to take out $200k+ in loans and spend an additional 4 years in school. A coding bootcamp would probably make the best return on investment for your education. Companies are hiring programmers like crazy right now. With 3-4 months and $10k in tuition you can earn $60k-100k starting.
 
Biggest issue for you is nobody knows what will happen when KGI, Chapman, westcoast, California health graduates their first classes in the next two years... this will introduce 250 or so new rph that we have never seen before.... I am waiting to see the aftermath of this fiasco... you will also be a year behind Ketchum...so that's five new pharmacy schools in California before you even get a chance to graduate!!

Are you able to relocate to rural and undesirable areas for work if needed? That will proly be likely scenario if you go with the retail route... residency is now the requirement for jobs outside of outpatient (retail). Is that something that you want to do and compete for spots?

Westernu is the fourth oldest school in California and has a solid reputation... but I won't lie to you, it's a very tough job market...people have to scrap and hustle for jobs nowadays...

I think if you don't have a preference between pharmacist or pa, pa seems to be a more promising career for now.
 
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If you can live at home and make 10k a year (15x40x52) that would defray some of the cost of attendance.

Relocating to a rural area is easy to say, but there are only a handful of jobs so timing is still important.
 
I'm not a pharmacist yet. I'll be graduating this May, but I wanted to pass along some advice I've received from the pharmacists that I work with. There are opportunities out there. I worked as a Walmart intern while in school. I am pursuing residency, but if I had wanted a position at Walmart, I am confident that I would have been able to get one. They really take care of their interns. According to the pharmacist that I work with, it is difficult to find a staff pharmacist position, but there are lots of opportunities for pharmacy manager positions. If that interests you, I'm told that you would be able to find a job without too much trouble. There are also positions out there if you are willing to move to underserved areas. There are currently open grad intern positions at Walmart in my state for people willing to move to a rural community.

From what I've seen, the big take away is to prepare for your career while you are in school. If you plan to work retail, intern at a retail pharmacy (ideally with the company you would want to work for as a pharmacist). If you plan to pursue residency, be active in school and make yourself into an attractive candidate.

If you work for a non-profit, remaining student loans will be forgiven (assuming they are federal loans) after 10 years of loan repayment.
 
People usually like to disagree with me on the basis of opinion and me having the wrong attitude, but keep in mind that the basic numbers (I.e., number of pharmacists graduating over the next 5-7 years as compared to the number of positions that are/will be in the job market) indicate that at least half of those who will be graduating from pharmacy school over the next decade will find themselves out of a job, simply because there aren't going to be enough positions to accommodate everyone. Think about it like this -- orthopedic surgeons are extremely well-compensated everywhere in the country, but what would happen if 200 new residencies were established over the next few months, with each residency program graduating an additional 10-15 orthopedic surgeons every year? The orthopedic surgeon job market would become oversaturated and there would actually an unemployment rate for orthopedic surgeons. Pharmacy is on track to experiencing this future.

Listen to what posters like Abby Atwood say above -- if you work as an intern for a retail chain, you may end up with a job offer to work for them as a pharmacist upon graduation, but there is a good chance you'll have to move to a rural, underserved area to get this job. I guess part of it comes down to how badly you want to work as a pharmacist -- do you want to be one so badly that you'd be willing to move to the most undesirable parts of the country in order to fulfill your goal? If you don't want to go to pharmacy school because you want to do the work so badly that you'd be willing to live anywhere, then you should probably do something else.
 
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a student said:
200k+? LOL


This!


Then you should only CONSIDER pharmacy school if you can end up with less than 100k debt
Click to expand...

I dont have any undergraduate loans..that 200k+ number would come from WesternUs 48k a year tuition.
 
Ahnold said:
I dont have any undergraduate loans..that 200k+ number would come from WesternUs 48k a year tuition.
Click to expand...

The 48k you take out in the first year will end up being 58k by the time you graduate. You also need to include tuition increases every year. Do you have cost of living covered? If not, it will be at least 15k/year.

Even if you only end up with 200k in debt, it is far from financial security. Your monthly payment will be 2.3k for 10 years that's more than 1/3 of your pay check.

A 3-month programming bootcamp can get you into a better financial position.
 
Cost of the school is not the issue... other than the two state schools, ucsf and ucsd, the tuition is pretty similar in all schools in California. Anyone who is considering starting school should think about the issues that I brought up in my first post in this thread
 
For loans that high, you can repay based on income and over a longer period of time. It depends on state and interest rate, but you could probably start to pay back your loans with monthly payments <$1000. Those payments would likely increase as you become more financially stable
https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/mobile/repayment/repaymentEstimator.action

I am so happy to be moving toward working as a pharmacist. I absolutely love the work and the difference we can make for patients. To the original poster Ahnold, no judgment here if you decide on a different path; but, if this is what you want, you can do it and you will be fine. Moving toward graduation, I am nervous about where I will wind up working (residency vs something else), but I am not nervous about being employed.
 
Abby Atwood said:
For loans that high, you can repay based on income and over a longer period of time. It depends on state and interest rate, but you could probably start to pay back your loans with monthly payments <$1000. Those payments would likely increase as you become more financially stable
https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/mobile/repayment/repaymentEstimator.action

I am so happy to be moving toward working as a pharmacist. I absolutely love the work and the difference we can make for patients. To the original poster Ahnold, no judgment here if you decide on a different path; but, if this is what you want, you can do it and you will be fine. Moving toward graduation, I am nervous about where I will wind up working (residency vs something else), but I am not nervous about being employed.
Click to expand...

What state are you in? Do you have a job lined up already? I like your attitude, but with the state of extreme saturation, when I graduated I was hella nervous
 
steveysmith54 said:
What state are you in? Do you have a job lined up already? I like your attitude, but with the state of extreme saturation, when I graduated I was hella nervous
Click to expand...
I'm applying to residency programs, so I'll know on the 17th (hopefully). I'm looking for opportunity over location which makes things a lot easier. If I don't get into a residency program, there are several open positions with IHS that I'm interested in; and, if everything falls through, there are still open grad intern positions with the retail company I work for.
 
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@Ahnold, it really depends on your goals. What exactly about pharmacy do you find fulfilling? If I had to take out 200k+ in loans to go to pharmacy school at this point, I would want to be extremely sure that 1) I would find pharmacy to be a fulfilling career and 2) there aren't other careers I am interest in with a lower upfront cost to train for. That might seem obvious, but make sure you've really done your research, including shadowing a number of different healthcare professionals in different settings.

If you have any doubts, it might not be a bad idea to find out if you can defer your admission for one year, and do some more exploring. At those tuition rates, and at your young age, if you really have a passion for healthcare, I would suggest looking into medical school - you'll get a better return on your investment, and although physicians don't always have it good, they have a lot more autonomy and authority than pharmacists do. If you don't want to invest the time in medical school, PA school is still a good way to go. There are more loan repayment opportunities for PAs than for pharmacists (and I don't see that going away for a while, although with everything that is happening on the national level with healthcare regulation, it's hard to be certain about anything), and although you definitely don't have the same level of autonomy as an MD, you have more authority than a pharmacist when it comes to choosing treatment and providing care to patients. You can also diversify your clinical skills more as a PA than as a pharmacist.
 
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Ahnold said:
Hello all, I am new to this forum so have mercy. Anyways, I'm 22 and got accepted at WesternU in California. All my academic career I was deadset on becoming a pharmacist, but it seems to me that recently **** has hit the fan and its only going to get worst. WesternU tuition is something like 48k a year, which is ridiculous I think. I'm pretty young right now so i still have time, would some of you more experienced pharmacists be able to give me some advice? It's pretty much WesternU for pharmacy, or taking a year off and then applying for a PA program at this point. Financial security is as important to me as a fulfilling career, I don't want to have 200k+ in loans with no realistic means of paying it off. Any type of advice is helpful.
Click to expand...

I would pass on RX in your shoes. calculate loan note and see how much you pay each month. I enjoy rx a lot because my education cost was minimal. Feels great to know I could resign anytime! real freedom.
If what i hear of nurse pay is true in Cali I'd do that instead for 1/4 the debt..
48k is ridiculous for the product you are purchase (rx education)
 
I don't have any awesome advice but can offer a few thoughts. Keep in mind, OP, that I'm not in California and don't know much about the pharmacy scene there.

1. $48K per year for tuition is pretty steep. My state has 2 state schools. I went to the more respected and more expensive one and my tuition was $10K per semester. Are you paying out of state tuition there?

2. Unless you have a sugar mama/daddy or still live with parents, don't forget that you will have to have money for living expenses as well. So actual loans will be >$48K per year.

3. Where I live, PA school is harder to get into and harder to complete than pharmacy school. If you reject your current acceptance, don't assume that you will be accepted anywhere next year.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
Holy moly, 48k/year? without interest? where is everyone getting these ridiculous numbers from? I'm paying $18-20k per year for 4 years.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Ahnold said:
Hello all, I am new to this forum so have mercy. Anyways, I'm 22 and got accepted at WesternU in California. All my academic career I was deadset on becoming a pharmacist, but it seems to me that recently **** has hit the fan and its only going to get worst. WesternU tuition is something like 48k a year, which is ridiculous I think. I'm pretty young right now so i still have time, would some of you more experienced pharmacists be able to give me some advice? It's pretty much WesternU for pharmacy, or taking a year off and then applying for a PA program at this point. Financial security is as important to me as a fulfilling career, I don't want to have 200k+ in loans with no realistic means of paying it off. Any type of advice is helpful.
Click to expand...

What are you planning to do, and how much money can you make during your "year-off"?

How are your grades? Do you have any HCE? Have you taken the GRE? PA is a great career, but admissions are extremely competitive... what if you take a year off, and then don't get accepted? What's your plan-C ?

And why is WesternU your only option for pharmacy school? How many schools did you apply to?
 
Have you considered going to nursing school and then becoming a CRNA? If you think you might be into anesthesia, they make as much or more than the average primary care doc and for working significantly fewer hours, and after getting a few years of experience working for an anesthesia group, you could pursue opportunities to work in an independent setting (e.g., plastic surgeon's office, outpatient surgery center, etc.) and make $250k+ for 40 hrs/wk.

On the other hand, since you mentioned PA school, an advantage of going that route would be the option you'd have of becoming a physician in the future, as there is now a PA-to-DO "bridge" program that shortens medical school by 1 year for licensed PAs.
 
Don't go to pharmacy school. It's not the profession it was even a few years ago, and like everyone else is saying, there is little to no job security.
 
I only recommend it if that's a field you truly like among all else or if your tuition is at MOST $25k/yr. There are people going to pharmacy school for $35-70k/yr. Are you guys insane?! People should know pharmacists make only around $80-150k and you're willing to go into $200+ worth of debt? No thanks.

It's not the worst career to be in at all. But it's also not in great shape. I don't blame it on the students for choosing pharmacy. I blame it on the cash cows who accept sub-standard students and milking them of money without job prospects.

Use common sense and do the math. You should apply to schools where tuition is decent for pharmacy. This is also for any career. If you are putting yourself into a debt (that accrues interest) MUCH larger than your expected salary, you're on the losing end and you will kick yourself later.
 
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Apples2Oranges said:
I only recommend it if that's a field you truly like among all else or if your tuition is at MOST $25k/yr. There are people going to pharmacy school for $35-70k/yr. Are you guys insane?! People should know pharmacists make only around $80-150k and you're willing to go into $200+ worth of debt? No thanks.

It's not the worst career to be in at all. But it's also not in great shape. I don't blame it on the students for choosing pharmacy. I blame it on the cash cows who accept sub-standard students and milking them of money without job prospects.

Use common sense and do the math. You should apply to schools where tuition is decent for pharmacy. This is also for any career. If you are putting yourself into a debt (that accrues interest) MUCH larger than your expected salary, you're on the losing end and you will kick yourself later.
Click to expand...
I still say go for it if you want it. We're students. We know how to be frugal. You could easily pay back your loans in 5 years if your take home salary after taxes is about $70,000 and your loans are around $200,000. What are you living off of now. Probably around $15,000 a year. Pharmacy provides a good salary; and, depending on how you spend it, it could give you an enormous disposable income.
 
Abby Atwood said:
You could easily pay back your loans in 5 years if your take home salary after taxes is about $70,000 and your loans are around $200,000.
Click to expand...

Complete BS if you or anyone else believes this chicanery.
 
Abby Atwood said:
You could easily pay back your loans in 5 years if your take home salary after taxes is about $70,000 and your loans are around $200,000. What are you living off of now. Probably around $15,000 a year. Pharmacy provides a good salary; and, depending on how you spend it, it could give you an enormous disposable income.
Click to expand...

Theoretically possible, but only if

1) Your overall expenses are miniscule. That is, your family pays for most or all of your room and board, utilities, etc. or you room with multiple people.
2) You don't encounter any emergencies that require you to spend a large amount of money, i.e. medical bills or car repairs
3) You actually work enough hours to be take home $70k/year. If you end up with few or no hours at all, then expect to relocate where you can get enough hours or even a job. In that case, eliminate #1 from the list.
 
This really isn't a viable career

It's hit rock bottom ... graduates from 2016 cannot find work and 2017 grads coming in 2 months and most will be licensed by the summer
 
stoichiometrist said:
Theoretically possible, but only if

1) Your overall expenses are miniscule. That is, your family pays for most or all of your room and board, utilities, etc. or you room with multiple people.
2) You don't encounter any emergencies that require you to spend a large amount of money, i.e. medical bills or car repairs
3) You actually work enough hours to be take home $70k/year. If you end up with few or no hours at all, then expect to relocate where you can get enough hours or even a job. In that case, eliminate #1 from the list.
Click to expand...
Emergencies would cut into things, but I was estimating a minimum cost of living. It is fair to say that you will need a roommate or two for your expenses to be that low. (also, turn off the heat/air conditioning). Additionally, cost of living depends on where you live.

I'm just saying, even working only part time as a licensed pharmacist I would be making more money than I have ever made. If lifestyle doesn't drastically change in pharmacists who are graduating, that additional money can go toward paying back loans. There is no penalty for paying back loans early if the loans are federal loans. Relocating would be a great idea. Typically, underserved areas have a cheaper cost of living.
 
It's a rather big assumption that you would have enough stable work hours (32-40 hours for 5 years) to pay off your loans. Look at chain retail, which generally makes no secret that you are just a commodity unless you work at a crappy store, then you are a useful inconvenience.
 
Sine Cura said:
It's a rather big assumption that you would have enough stable work hours (32-40 hours for 5 years) to pay off your loans. Look at chain retail, which generally makes no secret that you are just a commodity unless you work at a crappy store, then you are a useful inconvenience.
Click to expand...
Where are you working? Why would a market manager want to replace a staff pharmacist?
Training people is expensive
 
PAtoPharm said:
PA-to-DO "bridge"
Click to expand...

Potential new user name?!

Hah.. sorry dude, it just jumped out. You know I support you. Hell, I hope you do become a PA-to-DO. I don't want you to become another one of these unemployed pharmacists.
 
I really don't think you should pursue pharmacy if you are already concerned about the profession....

Even the students at the pharmacy school stress and worry everyday about job securities and loans that we'll have at the end of school.

I don't think you'll be happy if you go to Western in my personal opinion.

Have you even worked at a retail setting? Do you even know if you're capable of surviving in that kind of environment?

These are the factors that you should consider besides FINANCIAL issues if you're for pharmacy.
 
giga said:
@Ahnold, it really depends on your goals. What exactly about pharmacy do you find fulfilling? If I had to take out 200k+ in loans to go to pharmacy school at this point, I would want to be extremely sure that 1) I would find pharmacy to be a fulfilling career and 2) there aren't other careers I am interest in with a lower upfront cost to train for. That might seem obvious, but make sure you've really done your research, including shadowing a number of different healthcare professionals in different settings.

If you have any doubts, it might not be a bad idea to find out if you can defer your admission for one year, and do some more exploring. At those tuition rates, and at your young age, if you really have a passion for healthcare, I would suggest looking into medical school - you'll get a better return on your investment, and although physicians don't always have it good, they have a lot more autonomy and authority than pharmacists do. If you don't want to invest the time in medical school, PA school is still a good way to go. There are more loan repayment opportunities for PAs than for pharmacists (and I don't see that going away for a while, although with everything that is happening on the national level with healthcare regulation, it's hard to be certain about anything), and although you definitely don't have the same level of autonomy as an MD, you have more authority than a pharmacist when it comes to choosing treatment and providing care to patients. You can also diversify your clinical skills more as a PA than as a pharmacist.
Click to expand...
MD/DO and PA are good, but just curious why dentistry was not mentioned
 
Abby Atwood said:
Emergencies would cut into things, but I was estimating a minimum cost of living. It is fair to say that you will need a roommate or two for your expenses to be that low. (also, turn off the heat/air conditioning). Additionally, cost of living depends on where you live.

I'm just saying, even working only part time as a licensed pharmacist I would be making more money than I have ever made. If lifestyle doesn't drastically change in pharmacists who are graduating, that additional money can go toward paying back loans. There is no penalty for paying back loans early if the loans are federal loans. Relocating would be a great idea. Typically, underserved areas have a cheaper cost of living.
Click to expand...

I like your optimism in the threads, but let's be honest here. Yes, you will make more money than you have ever made. Of course depending on your previous jobs $80-100k seems a lot. However, you now have debt...that builds interest...so that $200k coming out of school may soon become $300k. Would you rather have gone to med/dental school to earn a larger salary and pay that off? I'm not saying pharmacy is a bad decision, but just the debt alone is enough for people to really reconsider what they're getting into. Go to a cheaper school.
 
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