independent pharmacy vs. everything else (company with 401k)

[iloveclementine]

Which one would you choose?

A slow independent pharmacy where you work alone which is a plus, but no 401k, no benefit. average pay if not less (say ~$50-ish). No personal growth
vs.
company (doesn't matter hospital, VA, retail, long term care, etc) which is just the opposite.. it includes retirement plan, better pay (say ~$60-ish), but busy, strict, and more challenging.

I am seeking for a job in a new area, and I got couple offers, but I am just being indecisive. Honestly, a company-based pharmacy with 401k and all other benefits sound fascinating to me, but at the same time, an independent pharmacy seems less stressful. What would you choose?

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[Momus]

Company with benefits + 401k match.

Benefits adds up about 30% extra of pay. Fu3k no benefit pharmacy. No retirement savings, no health ins, no PTO, GTFO... Unless they pay you $15 extra/hr, I wouldn't take a sh1tty independent job.

 

[CynicalIntern]

Company (Doesn't matter what) is indicative of you not know what you're getting into. VA vs LTC vs CVS is a HUGE difference. If you're asking if you take LTC vs independent that pays less, then it's a reasonable question. If the question is go work for CVS or go find an independent for 10 dollars less an hour and worse benefits, I say you take the independent unless you're a glutton for punishment.

The thing about working for independents is that they tend not to look at chain pharmacists after a while and only hire from within their own network. So you can use an indy to find a better indy. But you can't use CVS to find an indy. And CVS is always going to be there.

 

[Amicable Angora]

You may also want to consider potential job security as well as career advancement within the system for choice B.

 

[BenJammin]

You have way more opportunities at the independent. People act like no 401k is the end of the world as if IRAs are mythical beasts. You will regret choosing a CVS or Walgreens over an independent.

 

[Momus]

You have way more opportunities at the independent. People act like no 401k is the end of the world as if IRAs are mythical beasts. You will regret choosing a CVS or Walgreens over an independent.

Yes, 5.5k limit IRA vs. 18.5k limit 401k + 5k free money match.

I don't want your mythical unicorn.

 

[mentos]

Yes, 5.5k limit IRA vs. 18.5k limit 401k + 5k free money match.

I don't want your mythical unicorn.

More like 5.5k IRA vs 18.5k 401k + match + 5.5k backdoor IRA + 3450/6.9k HSA (usually with company contribution of 500/1k) + 5k DCFSA if you have kids.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

People really don't realize how much those bennies are worth. If you max out that 401k with a $140k salary...not only are you getting that free 5% ($7000) from the employer...you also aren't paying taxes on that money...so its like getting another $4000+ for free (if someone want to do the exact math, feel free). That's $11,000 of free money that you aren't considering. Just on 401k.

 

[Dr Wario]

People really don't realize how much those bennies are worth. If you max out that 401k with a $140k salary...not only are you getting that free 5% ($7000) from the employer...you also aren't paying taxes on that money...so its like getting another $4000+ for free (if someone want to do the exact math, feel free). That's $11,000 of free money that you aren't considering. Just on 401k.

Not really fair to count 401k tax savings because you will pay tax on withdrawal, however, you should not forget the value of vacation/sick time, ESPP, life insurance, health insurance, short term disability insurance, etc. I calculated the difference in benefits once when I got offered an independent job and it was about 28k at the time and would be even more now. Add to that the $12/hour less I would have made and that was another 25k per year, sorry independent is just not worth 50k less money.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Not really fair to count 401k tax savings because you will pay tax on withdrawal,

Of course it is. If you don't use the tax advantage of the 401k, you are by default investing money that was taxed as income...and then you also get taxed later for any capital gains. With the exception of HSA (and even then only on medical expenses), there isn't a vehicle where you avoid tax entirely. But 401k helps you avoid it on the front end.

 

[Sabril]

i cant tell you about other companies but I wouldn't say that independent is any less stress just because the volume is less. The problem is people get comfortable since they think they are less likely to get fired. After a while, your spoiled techs will think that it is your job to help them with everything, i.e. you are there to be their personal assistance. Also your boss may be doing some shady business and you can somehow get involved in the mix. You see, strict rule is not a bad thing in itself. Things are not going downhill as fast when people are on their toes.
Also the issue with brand name recognition. Your place can be sold at anytime and you may be left stranded. Why would anyone hire a person from Shady Joe's pharmacy with unknown work standards over a dummy from a major chain that they know is well broken, brainwashed and conditioned to be abused?

 

[johnpharm01]

Which one would you choose?

A slow independent pharmacy where you work alone which is a plus, but no 401k, no benefit. average pay if not less (say ~$50-ish). No personal growth
vs.
company (doesn't matter hospital, VA, retail, long term care, etc) which is just the opposite.. it includes retirement plan, better pay (say ~$60-ish), but busy, strict, and more challenging.

I am seeking for a job in a new area, and I got couple offers, but I am just being indecisive. Honestly, a company-based pharmacy with 401k and all other benefits sound fascinating to me, but at the same time, an independent pharmacy seems less stressful. What would you choose?

I actually just quit working at an independent after working at a major chain for several years. This is a tough call because its highly personalized. If you are in good health or have a spouse for the insurance, the lack of insurance may not bother you. If you have saved enough for retirement you may not miss the 401k.

I would caution you that it could turn out to be more stressful as my position did. The work kept building and building while the staffing went down and down. There were also major compliance and operation issues to overcome. You don't have corporate support so everything is on you.

Shop around, not all indys are the same. I interviewed with one that paid more and offered a 403 b.

 

[BenJammin]

Yes, 5.5k limit IRA vs. 18.5k limit 401k + 5k free money match.

I don't want your mythical unicorn.

If you want to leave all of that money on the table, that's fine with me.

 

[iloveclementine]

thanks for your advice. My friend works at an independent pharmacy and he said he has a lot of downtime during the day. he made it sound like he's pretty much not responsible for anything and the owner takes care of it if any. I thought this work environment could beat getting paid a little more + all the benefits. But I guess from you guys' response there is a chance of instability in jobs and getting into illegal stuff without you knowing it, and compliance issues.

 

[OXYFORALL]

I'm got lucky and found an independent job after being forced to leave rad. No benefits or pto. I clock in and clock out. Every minute I'm here I'm paid unlike RAD with the meetings on your own time, working over your shift to clean up and being forced to do flu clinics on your days off. No more Turkish ass rapings like while working at RAD. If I want to eat or take a leak I just go. And not walking into a pile of crap from the previous day is worth 10$/hr to me.

 

[Modest_anteater]

Which one would you choose?

A slow independent pharmacy where you work alone which is a plus, but no 401k, no benefit. average pay if not less (say ~$50-ish). No personal growth
vs.
company (doesn't matter hospital, VA, retail, long term care, etc) which is just the opposite.. it includes retirement plan, better pay (say ~$60-ish), but busy, strict, and more challenging.

I am seeking for a job in a new area, and I got couple offers, but I am just being indecisive. Honestly, a company-based pharmacy with 401k and all other benefits sound fascinating to me, but at the same time, an independent pharmacy seems less stressful. What would you choose?

Stop being lazy and just open up your own independent. It can be done for under 200,000 USD. And you can make over 200,000 a year.

 

[iloveclementine]

Stop being lazy and just open up your own independent. It can be done for under 200,000 USD. And you can make over 200,000 a year.

haha I'd love to be my own boss. Don't I need like a manager experience, though? What do you suggest? I feel like opening a pharmacy without experience is a losing game to begin with.

 

[stark3]

If you want to leave all of that money on the table, that's fine with me.

How is that leaving money on the table ? Some people really are financially inept. Having a higher limit on a 401k is a good thing...

 

[Modest_anteater]

haha I'd love to be my own boss. Don't I need like a manager experience, though? What do you suggest? I feel like opening a pharmacy without experience is a losing game to begin with.

Not sure. Don't know much about it. My friend owns four pharmacys and he said they netted 300-500k profit each. He works 7 days a week though.

 

[Apotheker2015]

Which one would you choose?

A slow independent pharmacy where you work alone which is a plus, but no 401k, no benefit. average pay if not less (say ~$50-ish). No personal growth
vs.
company (doesn't matter hospital, VA, retail, long term care, etc) which is just the opposite.. it includes retirement plan, better pay (say ~$60-ish), but busy, strict, and more challenging.

I am seeking for a job in a new area, and I got couple offers, but I am just being indecisive. Honestly, a company-based pharmacy with 401k and all other benefits sound fascinating to me, but at the same time, an independent pharmacy seems less stressful. What would you choose?

I would definitely take option 2, the job with the large company. You are getting benefits, you will likely get a yearly raise and above all that, there will be an established structure and procedures for you to follow. There is a lot of beauty in that. At an independent you will have to fend for yourself. For example: Say you're counseling on a medication that was reviewed and verified by another pharmacist on a day you weren't even present. Can you be absolutely sure they followed the law and required prospective DURs if there really isn't a pharmacy operations manual and people just kindda do as they please depending upon the situation? You want structure. You can always take a job at an independent later once you have that structure and you will be golden. The other way around though, most chains will wonder whether you will have issues adapting to just following procedure.
My two humble cents.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Your answer is in the final number. Going towards the low end, $5,000 in employer contributions left behind over a 30 year career at 7% is over half a million. If for some odd reason you want to work 40 years, it breaks one million left behind

Take the corporate job please.

 

[BenJammin]

How is that leaving money on the table ? Some people really are financially inept. Having a higher limit on a 401k is a good thing...

I'm an investor in some independent pharmacies. We put 25% of every employee's salary in an IRA and let them do what they wish with it. I'll let you do the math but they laugh at your 401k.

 

[wagrxm2000]

I'm an investor in some independent pharmacies. We put 25% of every employee's salary in an IRA and let them do what they wish with it. I'll let you do the math but they laugh at your 401k.

I'd rather have the extra contribution and invest my 25% on my own.

 

[Deja]

I'm an investor in some independent pharmacies. We put 25% of every employee's salary in an IRA and let them do what they wish with it. I'll let you do the math but they laugh at your 401k.

25% is a lot of money, do they even get a choice? also what does this have to do with the original argument? the independent pharmacy the OP mentioned obviously doesn't do this so you are not disproving anyone's point

 

[BenJammin]

I'd rather have the extra contribution and invest my 25% on my own.

Given the option of the 25% match vs a 401k with employer match? Like I said, you're more than welcome to leave that money on the table. Never heard of an employer giving you free reign of 401k funds.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Given the option of the 25% match vs a 401k with employer match? Like I said, you're more than welcome to leave that money on the table. Never heard of an employer giving you free reign of 401k funds.

I hope I'm misunderstanding this, are you saying you match 25%? If that is true then yes I'll take that. If not, I stand by what I said earlier, give me the contribution.

Also, I don't want free reign of my 401k, it's there to accumulate without having to think about it.

 

[Momus]

I hope I'm misunderstanding this, are you saying you match 25%? If that is true then yes I'll take that. If not, I stand by what I said earlier, give me the contribution.

Also, I don't want free reign of my 401k, it's there to accumulate without having to think about it.

He is probably saying 25% match on 5% of your salary, which is nothing lmao. It's stupid to think otherwise. He is not financially literate if you check his previous posts. So, he doesn't know the difference between dollar to dollar match (100%) and 25% match, again not a surprise there.

 

[BenJammin]

I hope I'm misunderstanding this, are you saying you match 25%? If that is true then yes I'll take that. If not, I stand by what I said earlier, give me the contribution.

25% of your salary. If you're a $100,000 pharmacist you get $25,000.

He is probably saying 25% match on 5% of your salary, which is nothing lmao. It's stupid to think otherwise. He is not financially literate if you check his previous posts. So, he doesn't know the difference between dollar to dollar match (100%) and 25% match, again not a surprise there.

This is what a salty chain pharmacist looks like.

 

[Momus]

25% of your salary. If you're a $100,000 pharmacist you get $25,000.



This is what a salty chain pharmacist looks like.

The lie deepens LMAO. Pics or it didn't happen. Some people on this forums LOL!

 

[wagrxm2000]

25% of your salary. If you're a $100,000 pharmacist you get $25,000.



This is what a salty chain pharmacist looks like.

I'm not sure why you think that's beneficial. I'm all for trading stocks but I believe your retirement shouldn't be messed with. Let your egg grow on it's own.

Unless you have some numbers to back you up, that's not going to help a person get the million back they lost by not getting $5k more per year which is actually at the low end for many people.

Edit: ok are you or are you not saying you give a person 25%? So if a person makes $140k how much are you matching?

 

[Apotheker2015]

I'm an investor in some independent pharmacies. We put 25% of every employee's salary in an IRA and let them do what they wish with it. I'll let you do the math but they laugh at your 401k.

Funny you should mention that. I've always wondered if that could be done. It's a win-win, then.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Funny you should mention that. I've always wondered if that could be done. It's a win-win, then.

Lol can someone please tell me how this is a win/win with an example?

 

[Apotheker2015]

Lol can someone please tell me how this is a win/win with an example?

Your taxable income is lowered. You get a tax break. The pharmacy also gets a tax break on the % match. I am oversimplifying it. Voluntary salary reduction is another way and contributing to a Simple IRA.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Your taxable income is lowered. You get a tax break. The pharmacy also gets a tax break on the % match. I am oversimplifying it. Voluntary salary reduction is another way and contributing to a Simple IRA.

I'm looking for an example, is or isn't this independent matching 25%?

IRA and 401k are essentially the same when it comes to investing since no one should be trading their retirement accounts. I have crushed the market but wouldn't trade my retirement money.

If someone is going to claim they are losing out, they should at least give the numbers.

 

[PharmDminus]

I'm looking for an example, is or isn't this independent matching 25%?

IRA and 401k are essentially the same when it comes to investing since no one should be trading their retirement accounts. I have crushed the market but wouldn't trade my retirement money.

If someone is going to claim they are losing out, they should at least give the numbers.

if wag offered us a 10% cut in pay, but increased the match from 4% to 25%, i think we would all take it. hard to believe theres indies out there offering a 25% match though

 

[Momus]

if wag offered us a 10% cut in pay, but increased the match from 4% to 25%, i think we would all take it. hard to believe theres indies out there offering a 25% match though

That's why I call BS when I see it. Prove me otherwise.

 

[PharmDminus]

That's why I call BS when I see it. Prove me otherwise.

and it would have to be 1.5:1 or something, since you cant contribute 25% of salary if u r making 100k. doesnt add up

 

[Dr Wario]

and it would have to be 1.5:1 or something, since you cant contribute 25% of salary if u r making 100k. doesnt add up

Right, but your employer has no restrictions on contributions for employees except up to the total contribution limit of 55,000 and no more than 25% of the employee's salary.

 

[wagrxm2000]

Right, but your employer has no restrictions on contributions for employees except up to the total contribution limit of 55,000 and no more than 25% of the employee's salary.

The only thing I can think of is he's saying since they can put more into an IRA you can trade it tax free..... Maybe?

 

[BenJammin]

I'm not sure why you think that's beneficial. I'm all for trading stocks but I believe your retirement shouldn't be messed with. Let your egg grow on it's own.

Unless you have some numbers to back you up, that's not going to help a person get the million back they lost by not getting $5k more per year which is actually at the low end for many people.

Edit: ok are you or are you not saying you give a person 25%? So if a person makes $140k how much are you matching?

I'm not really sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Am I really not making it clear? 25% of your salary. If you're a $100,000 pharmacist you get $25,000. If you're a $140,000 pharmacist then you get $35,000. You don't think that's beneficial? The only way you're outperforming that with a 401k is with a 8-9% contribution match.

 

[wagrxm2000]

I'm not really sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Am I really not making it clear? 25% of your salary. If you're a $100,000 pharmacist you get $25,000. If you're a $140,000 pharmacist then you get $35,000. You don't think that's beneficial? The only way you're outperforming that with a 401k is with a 8-9% contribution match.

Because you aren't saying how much the pharmacist is making. If the pharmacist makes $100k then they are severely underpaid.

Just give the exact number, am I really not making it clear? If you don't want to give it because it's less that's fine.

I'm being perfectly clear, the better option is the higher paying option with benefits. I have never seen an independent pay more.

 

[Momus]

I'm not really sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Am I really not making it clear? 25% of your salary. If you're a $100,000 pharmacist you get $25,000. If you're a $140,000 pharmacist then you get $35,000. You don't think that's beneficial? The only way you're outperforming that with a 401k is with a 8-9% contribution match.

They should have a badge for you "fail basic math". Anyone who believes you is an idiot.

 

[BenJammin]

They should have a badge for you "fail basic math". Anyone who believes you is an idiot.

Good thing retirement calculations require more than just "basic match". $18,500 contribution limit for a 401k in 2018, right? Let's assume 30 years old, $140,000 a year salary, no annual increase, 7% annual rate of return, max contribution from the employee, and 100% employer match that ends at 5%. Balance at age 65 is $3,598,479.

25% contribution by our pharmacy for a 30 year old, $140,000 a year salary, no annual increase, 7% annual rate of return, and no contribution by the employee (so just the 25% match into the account). You have to tinker with the calculator to get it to work so you can put $17,500 as employee contribution and have 100% employer contribution up to 100%. It effectively puts the yearly contribution at $35,000 which is what you want. Balance at age 65 is $5,019,835.

401k Calculator - Bankrate.com

Didn't check boost history - but if I recall he grossly underpays the pharmacist he employs ... So 25% of a 80K-90K salary ~110K which is what is probably market rate in Texas.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

That's for my MTM service company, not a community retail pharmacy.

 

[johnpharm01]

I interviewed with an independent that offered a similar benefits package. In the interview they asked me what i would consider good wages I suggested $55 per hour and was told they could do better. They also offered a SEP starting after a year of work, just no health insurance. Unfortunately, they were not hiring at that point I had cold called them. They also took 1 hour breaks (pharmacists) and were better staffed than a chain. This is with a Walgreens, City Market and Walmart all close by. Shows you how much the big chains rip us off.

I'm all for thinking ahead, but those on this post that work at a major chain, do you really think your going to get thirty years?

 

[BMBiology]

25% contribution by our pharmacy for a 30 year old, $140,000 a year salary, no annual increase, 7% annual rate of return, and no contribution by the employee (so just the 25% match into the account). You have to tinker with the calculator to get it to work so you can put $17,500 as employee contribution and have 100% employer contribution up to 100%. It effectively puts the yearly contribution at $35,000 which is what you want. Balance at age 65 is $5,019,835.

This is true. An employer you can contribute up to 25% of his profit (max 55 k a year) to a SEP-IRA. The catch is the employer needs to also offer the same benefit to his employees. So, if he contributes 25% of his business profit to his SEP IRA, he also needs to contribute 25% of his employee salary to a SEP-IRA (for example, a pharmacist makes $100,000 a year, the employer would put $25 k in the employee's SEP-IRA). However, if his business is not doing well, then there is less incentive for him to put 25% of his profit into his SEP-IRA (less tax deduction incentive).

CVS matches a measly 5% of their pharmacists salary but I am sure their executives get a lot more, probably 100% match.

Retirement plans contribution limitations: Maximum Contribution Limits for Retirement Plans, 401k, IRA

 

[Apotheker2015]

I'm looking for an example, is or isn't this independent matching 25%?

IRA and 401k are essentially the same when it comes to investing since no one should be trading their retirement accounts. I have crushed the market but wouldn't trade my retirement money.

If someone is going to claim they are losing out, they should at least give the numbers.

The IRS has some on the website.

 

[wagrxm2000]

The IRS has some on the website.

Gee thanks

 

[johnpharm01]

Gee thanks

If you are looking for an example of a pharmacy the one I was referring to is Reams Palace Drug in Canon City Colorado.

BTW, I feel sorry for walgreens pharmacists. I worked there and had lots of good coworkers, I grew up in the Chicago area and Walgreens is a household name there, use to work right down lake cook road from the corporate headquarters, and even went to the flagship store on michigan ave. Funny thing the flagship store doesn't have a drive thru the pharmacy is on the second floor. That company has changed fast and not for the better

 

[wagrxm2000]

If you are looking for an example of a pharmacy the one I was referring to is Reams Palace Drug in Canon City Colorado.

BTW, I feel sorry for walgreens pharmacists. I worked there and had lots of good coworkers, I grew up in the Chicago area and Walgreens is a household name there, use to work right down lake cook road from the corporate headquarters, and even went to the flagship store on michigan ave. Funny thing the flagship store doesn't have a drive thru the pharmacy is on the second floor. That company has changed fast and not for the better

I'm just looking for an actual example. Insurance alone is probably saving my family around 10k, toss in a five figure bonus and company contribution to 401k.... Independents don't typically offer any of that.

As long as everyone is trained appropriately, the job is a piece of cake still.

 

[Apotheker2015]

Gee thanks

Umm... you can google
"salary reduction" + "IRA"
"simple IRA"