What does it take to get into INOVA's residency? Is it one of the stronger reconstructive foot/ankle and traumatology residencies?
INOVA Residency?
- Thread starter Marry2Pod
- Start date
Pros:
- Well known attendings
- diverse cases
- good location
- they pre-match (not all the time)
- they take a lot of cocky students
- some of the attendings are really cocky (but I would have to say(from experience) the cockiest ones are the ones from Penn.)
- Joined
- May 15, 2004
- Messages
- 2,167
- Reaction score
- 9
I may be biased...
The pros are right on with the addition of awesome off service rotations. This is what makes the program - Ortho trauma, Georgetown, Medicine, Surgery (Vasc and Gen)... you will be fully integrated onto each team and function like anyone of their other residents.
The cons are a bit off. The absolutely do not pre-match. This program follows the rules of CPME and CASPR/CRIPS. They will tell you after interviews where you stand in the rankings and hold true to this. They will not promise the program to you before interviews, nor will they ask you where you are ranking them. Very honest.
Each residency program has a type. Maybe cocky is the Inova type? I would say, if you take time to get to know the students/residents they really are not that cocky.
It is a great program and consistently produces leaders in the profession.
To become a resident try to be top of your class and do an externship. This years incoming class is 3 #1s and a #2 in their pod school class. This is not always the case.
If you are not top of your class, apply for an externship anyway. If you are denied an externship, you can still visit for a few days/week then interview, you never know...
Good Luck.
Wow - I know it was competitive but not that competitive! #1 or #2 in the class! Do they look at anything else besides GPA?
Sorry, but one of those #1 students go (or went) to my school. That person also told everyone he pre-matched.
Either he is full of **** or you are.
In addition, he is the cockiest person I have met. He belittles others.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2009
- Messages
- 1,652
- Reaction score
- 18
Sorry, but one of those #1 students go (or went) to my school. That person also told everyone he pre-matched.
Either he is full of **** or you are.
In addition, he is the cockiest person I have met. He belittles others.
Pretty strong words for someone who only has a handful of posts under his/her belt.
On the other hand, krabmas has a few thousand posts, and she has contributed some significant information on this forum. I believe that she deserves a bit more respect than "either he is full of shi*t or you are".
She gave you her answer based on her 3 year experience at the program, and apparently she has impressed others since she is now also doing a fellowship.
I'd recommend that as you advance in your career and training, you learn how to be a little more diplomatic with your comments. Maybe it would have been smarter for you to have stated that since krabmas has stated that the program does NOT pre-match, the student from your school has apparently been providing some misinformation.
However, did YOU actually hear him say it or is it "hearsay". Implying that someone on this site may be "full of ****", when she has been a constructive contributing member of this forum for a long time is simply inappropriate.
You owe krabmas an apology.
And if the guy from your school is "the cockiest" person you ever met, he is also apparently bright or he wouldn't be number one. Once he's around alot of other bright people in higher authority positions, I guarantee you his "cockiness" will be humbled.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,185
- Reaction score
- 4,574
My advice would be to just apply yourself in pod school, work hard on rotations, and keep an open mind out on clerkship rotations. See how you actually like the attending, residents, hospital, city, etc on each rotation. Watch how much
It seems to happen to most pod students (myself included) get "zoned in" on certain residency programs during their 2nd and 3rd year based on hearsay... yet they've never even set foot in the hospitals or met any of the attendings there. A lot of DMU students think Mike Lee is so great, and since he went to West Penn, they assume it must be the best and they've gotta have it. NY seems to view Inova as gold standard, Barry thinks of Orlando and DeKalb that way, etc.
In reality, the "best residency" for any given students depends on their needs, wants, and personality. Do a realistic self eval of your grades/rank, your needs and wants from a program, and pick clekrships which you think will fit your goals. Then, keep an open mind out there on rotations and learn all you can.
It seems to happen to most pod students (myself included) get "zoned in" on certain residency programs during their 2nd and 3rd year based on hearsay... yet they've never even set foot in the hospitals or met any of the attendings there. A lot of DMU students think Mike Lee is so great, and since he went to West Penn, they assume it must be the best and they've gotta have it. NY seems to view Inova as gold standard, Barry thinks of Orlando and DeKalb that way, etc.
In reality, the "best residency" for any given students depends on their needs, wants, and personality. Do a realistic self eval of your grades/rank, your needs and wants from a program, and pick clekrships which you think will fit your goals. Then, keep an open mind out there on rotations and learn all you can.
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
- Messages
- 354
- Reaction score
- 4
I think we can all agree that the best residency is the one I'm at. Period.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,185
- Reaction score
- 4,574
Where did you end up at? DMC?
I'd say the top 5 pod residency programs right now might be (in no particular order) DeKalb, DMC, PSL, Inova, and Kaiser SF Bay. I haven't visited Denver, Inova, or Cali, but I hear good things from nearly everyone I talk to who visits, so that many ppl I trust probably can't be wrong IMO. There are also dozens of other great programs across the nation that would be right on the heels of those programs, and we're very lucky to have so many high quality DPM residency training options these days.
Again, it all depends on what the student candidate wants, though. Best program for student A might make student B miserable based on personalities of residents/attendings, type of cases, hours, etc. For me, I decided that I'd found a program that's 85-90% of the DeKalb training with only about 70-75% of the hours and higher pay, so that's what worked best for me. A nice "high power" brand name on your CV and maybe a few more RRA cases on your logs is cool, but you have to have a real reason for going through with that choice. Great training is great training, but with as many good programs as we have today, it's not worth losing your sanity or marriage over. JMO... still tons of respect for the attendings and residents who take those 70-80+hr/wk programs. Residency is more like a tailored suit than one size fits all T-shirt...
Detriot Medical Centre.( self explanatory). Dekalb is in Decatur(Atlanda). Pres/ St Lukes is in Denver. Kaiser SF Bay, Is San Fran. And you know INOVA.Thanks for all the advice! Excuse my lack of knowledge, but where is DMC? What does it stand for?! My husband is the Pod student, I am just married to a pod
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2009
- Messages
- 1,652
- Reaction score
- 18
Quick question. I was just wondering among students, how is the Presby program in Philly considered. I personally know Michael Downey, and I think he's one of the most competent and knowledegable surgeons I've ever met. Additionally, in my opinion, he's also one of the nicest guys I've ever met.
His patients love him and I've seen his work. I know a lot of guys that practice in the Philadelphia area, and apparently if there's a tough case or "botched" surgery, it ends up in Mike's office. He cleans up a lot of other doctor's cases, but I thought the training was supposed to be top notch.
I was wondering what reputation the program has among students/residents, or if they have a reputation for being partial to Temple grads.
His patients love him and I've seen his work. I know a lot of guys that practice in the Philadelphia area, and apparently if there's a tough case or "botched" surgery, it ends up in Mike's office. He cleans up a lot of other doctor's cases, but I thought the training was supposed to be top notch.
I was wondering what reputation the program has among students/residents, or if they have a reputation for being partial to Temple grads.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,185
- Reaction score
- 4,574
It's a pretty solid program. I rotated there, and my impression was that it could give you what you need... but it wasn't quite on the level of the other programs I clerked or visited 4th year in terms of cost/benefit ratio. They have above average surgical volume, do basically every type of elective F&A case, and have some attendings who are very interested in teaching.
Downey is top notch... he does good surgery (both proc selection and technique), he teaches well and lectures the residents, and they do clinic with him. Malay is good, and while he doesn't do a high volume of surgery, the residents get involved with JFAS editing with him (and can probably get a leg up on their write ups making it into the journal). Mlodzienski was a nice guy and did some neat cases as well as clinic with the residents. Schoenhaus seems to have a lot of respect in the area, but he did some crazy surgeries and kinda struck me as the sort of guy who is later in his career and willing to try anything he can dream up (or maybe anything Wright Med reps suggested to him?) since he probably won't have to follow it up long term or do the revisional work. Most of their cases I saw were double scrubbed with residents - maybe tripled if rearfoot, but they certainly do get their req MAV numbers since it's 4yrs of training.
When I was there, they had a mix of Presby residents and Graduate Hosp residents who had been transferred in when Schoenhaus' program closed, so it was a transition time so to speak. The residents were sharp and hardworking for the most part, but I didn't like how they often just left the pgy1 resident to scramble around chasing labs, consults, etc on the floors while the seniors sat around in the lounge reading. That did turn into a bonus for the rotating students, though: they would often teach and pimp the students during down times.
In the end, it sorta struck me as a program that was hard for the sake of being hard. The hours weren't the worst of my rotations, but the residents took in hospital overnight call despite barely any ER calls, made students come in early to get labs (despite a resident doing the same), and wore business dress most days. It seemed to be a 4yr program mostly just so they could do more non-pod med/surg rotations.
Presby's probably a top 25-50 program out of the ~250 pod residency hospitals in the country, but I wouldn't consider it among the elite since it's 4yrs long, ortho relationship is not good, and even their sponsor hospital ER doesn't give them much trauma. They seem to have the support and respect of the gen surg dept, but ortho doesn't really give them anything in terms of rotations or ER call (and probably never will since they've had a good program there awhile, yet no dice). There was talk of setting up a trauma rotation, but it was gen surg trauma (ruptured spleens, penetrating abdominal trauma, head bleeds, etc) and not ortho trauma.
My general impression was that the Penn Presby program is better than most, but they spend far too much time in non-pod rotations (plastic, ped hand, gen surg, various med rotations, etc etc). Their pods admit a lot of their own patients, and the residents get very in depth on the medical management aspect. That stuff is all fine and good, but at the end of the day, you're going to be doing foot and ankle surgery. The emphasis of the program would definitely be med mgmt skills and non-pod surgery offerings as well as academics and "cutting edge" surgery via Schoenhaus. It'd be a solid pick if you were looking to publish, experience a significant amount of medical management, say you did 4yrs of training, and see a lot of elective F&A surg. It would not be a very good pick if you were looking to see an appreciable amount of F&A trauma, hone in mostly on pod training without excess off svc stuff, and find a program with a "no nonsense" training philosophy.
I certainly don't mean to discourage anyone from visiting the program. It does give solid training. I didn't care for the city of Phila much at all, and was already pretty much decided on where I was going for residency by the time I rotated there, so perhaps I was "mailing it in" somewhat during my rotation. I don't know. I did show up on time, scrub all I could, put good effort into readings and my assigned powerpoint, etc. Like I said, the residents there were all bright and many good attendings, but residency has to fit the individual. Don't be intimidated by the fact that they have mostly Temple residents; I feel a good student from any school would be competitive if they applied. As with any program, visit and form your own opinions...
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2010
- Messages
- 22
- Reaction score
- 0
As a current Temple student here are my thoughts and what I have seen/heard.
Presby is pretty highly regarded. Feli's post is pretty spot on as far as medical management and things go.
A major flaw among a lot of students (at temple) is that the program is 4 years in length. Temple and Presby are pretty much the top programs in Philly with some other 3 year programs that offer solid training but nothing compared to what those two offer.
There are only a handful of programs with the same type of brilliant attendings that Presby has.
What is the opinion of West Penn? Obviously the attendings are big names, but how does it compare to UPMC-SS?
Presby is pretty highly regarded. Feli's post is pretty spot on as far as medical management and things go.
A major flaw among a lot of students (at temple) is that the program is 4 years in length. Temple and Presby are pretty much the top programs in Philly with some other 3 year programs that offer solid training but nothing compared to what those two offer.
There are only a handful of programs with the same type of brilliant attendings that Presby has.
What is the opinion of West Penn? Obviously the attendings are big names, but how does it compare to UPMC-SS?
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2010
- Messages
- 7
- Reaction score
- 0
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2007
- Messages
- 4,185
- Reaction score
- 4,574
West Penn is another very solid training program. I think it had a legit claim as being at or maybe even a tad above the level of Atlanta back when they took 2 or 3 residents per year, but keep in mind they take 5/yr at West Penn now.
Catanzariti and Mendicino are excellent and board many complex cases. Saltrick is equally good but just does less self promotion (doesn't lecture as much, will be fine being a later listed author on the papers while the other two might be lead author, etc), and therefore he just isn't as well known in terms of "name value." The residents there were nearly all very good in terms of academics, work ethic, and personality. You can tell that they put a lot of thought into their social interviews, and they seem to end up with very few residents who are have a subpar personality or can't handle the pressure.
The main problem is just that nearly all their F&A cases come from those three attendings, and keep in mind there are now 15 residents there. It's just a lot of mouthes to feed, and they need to consider adding more attendings or take fewer residents IMO. There are a few other attendings who will occasionally do surgery there, but it didn't really seem to be an appreciable amount. The saving grace is that those 3 main surgical attendings are solid gold and do great work... they round with the residents, they lecture them, they teach in clinic, etc. Mendicino is a top notch surgeon who will do very complex recon, but he doesn't seem to pass the knife to the residents very much (maybe that's why he got so good lol?); the other two main DPMs are also very good and did seem to let the residents do more in the OR. The main problem is just that they have so many residents that they routinely end up double, triple, quad scrubbing the cases. Students don't even scrub for that obvious reasoning, but you will see some great stuff during the month.
The clinics are very busy, but that means a ton of routine care mixed in with the more interesting and complex cases. Some students get put off by the fact that they'll crack probably a few hundred nail pts that month, but IMO, you take the good with the bad, and it's a fair tradeoff for the complex stuff you get to see. The main attendings have a huge referral base since they lecture/publish so much, and you will see frames, ankle implants, complex recon, and other stuff in quantities that you see hardly anywhere else. The residents do get a fair amount of billing experience since they bill the inpt consults, procedures, etc. The rounding gets to be pretty excessive (students get there circa 430 or 5am to get labs, interns and junior residents round, chief rounds, then attending rounds in the AM... then juniors do floor work all day... then all round with chief again in PM). There is no ortho program at their hospital, so they get most F&A stuff their ER gets. I don't think the hospital is a very high option for area trauma since there are no other surgical residencies at West Penn (I think most Pitt area trauma goes to Allegheny General or UPMC trauma hospitals), but they still see a pretty decent amount compared to other pod programs.
West Penn has a lot of required resident papers/posters/etc and many scheduled academics. They have research nurses and a very well coordinated and organized program, which is good because the residents stay quite busy. It is obviously a great brand name when you finish and there are many famous alumni, but depending on how conscientiously they are logging, I find it hard almost to believe they reach their numbers now that they take 5 residents/yr. Their grads will have *seen* it all, but I would question how much they have actually *done* in the OR when compared to other top programs. A fair amount of their grads do fellowships (whether that's to get more OR experience or just to pad the CV... I have no idea), and the good thing is that the brand name will get you nearly any fellowship you might want.
All in all, West Penn's a very good program. Your 3rd year there will probably be about the best of any program in the country, but my conclusion was that overall, it'd be a better fellowship than a residency. With the very long hours that the residents have to put in there to get what seemed like relatively little "hands on" surgery per resident, I'd think you might be better off doing a higher volume pod surg program (in terms of legit "C" cases per resident) and just reading the West Penn publications.
One thing to note was that the program was getting more involved with the West Penn-Forbes campus. They have a clinic there, but it seemed to me that they were starting to do more consults, maybe get some ER referrals, etc there. When I asked why they don't bring in a few more attendings or keep some grads around as attendings, the residents would just casually change the subject. I got the idea that they might have some sort of a non-compete clause and the attendings they do have made the politics very tough for other DPMs to privileges there, but who really knows? They apparently kept one alumni, Dr. Murphy, but I was there when she was one of the pgy3s, and she was one of the few residents there who I (and other students/residents) found to be a bit abrasive, so who knows if she'll last or how she will act as an attending? I think that if they would bring in a few more good DPM attendings and get more active at Forbes, the potential is definitely there for this to be a bonafide "top 5" type of pod residency program once again. Right now, they just have too many mouthes to feed, though. Again, JMO... visit and decide for yourself.
...UPMC is also regarded as a very solid program. The program's now at their Mercy campus, not South Side. They are much more integrated with ortho than West Penn, but I have no idea how much UPMC ortho attendings also let them do. Keep in mind they also have ortho residency and some ortho fellowships within their system. Some students have told me that the pod residents will sometimes take a back seat to ortho residents/fellows there, but other students seemed to think everything goes along swimmingly. I never clerked or visited, so you'd have to go visit to find out more.
I agree that your picks are all solid choices. Seattle (not sure of the name), West Penn, St. Johns, West Houston, John Peter Smith also have some great attendings, case volume and diversity. There are some residencies without clerkships/externships that are sleepers since they are not talked about. I agree you have to find the right fit for you. If you pick a place purely on name and do not fit in it could be a miserable 3 years for you.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 15, 2004
- Messages
- 2,167
- Reaction score
- 9
Last edited:
I believe he is talking about the one in Detriot.
Here is a complete list of all residencies with information about them.
http://www.casprcrip.org/html/casprcrip/directory.asp
- Joined
- May 15, 2004
- Messages
- 2,167
- Reaction score
- 9
I have heard basically the same thing from people that have chosen other programs after rotating at West Penn.
Just based on what I have heard and seen from students and previous residents I would pick UPMC over West Penn.
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2005
- Messages
- 2,669
- Reaction score
- 16
Glad to see that you survived your cross country journey!
- Joined
- May 15, 2004
- Messages
- 2,167
- Reaction score
- 9
thanks! you too. I heard from facebook that you had quite the pyrotechnic display.
Hey guys thanks for all the great advice on this forum..I have a few questions that I hope someone can answer
Going through round 2 of clerks right now and got offered a spot at INOVA. I have done a lot of research on this program, but concerned with its reputation of taking only the top of the class. I am not in the top 20%. I don't know if its worth spending a month there if my chances would be low going in. I am filling my last month right now and it's between INOVA and Kaiser Santa Clara. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Is it worth clerking there? And how serious are programs about candidates for clerks?
Going through round 2 of clerks right now and got offered a spot at INOVA. I have done a lot of research on this program, but concerned with its reputation of taking only the top of the class. I am not in the top 20%. I don't know if its worth spending a month there if my chances would be low going in. I am filling my last month right now and it's between INOVA and Kaiser Santa Clara. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Is it worth clerking there? And how serious are programs about candidates for clerks?
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2007
- Messages
- 739
- Reaction score
- 730
Both are hard to get in. I would suggest clerking there anyway, the learning experience is invaluable. There are stuff I’ve learned as a student at high powered programs that I’ve carried over in residency and still using as an attending. Plan for the long term, not the short term.
