Input on School Decision

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Messiah10

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So I am going to decide on the school I will attend this week. I have a large interest in getting the best surgical training, being surrounded by great staff and resources, and maximizing my ability to be matched at a top residency program. I would like to do this in the most cost effective way.

The schools I am considering are Temple, Scholl, and KSU. I took into account the averages that schools listed for tuition, personal expenses, and fees (insurance, books, other random fees). Due to the different scholarships I was offered here are the numbers I estimated on a yearly basis:

Temple = $51,000 per year
Scholl = $37,000 per year
KSU = $48,000 per year

Was wondering if anyone had input on my situation with the current residency shortage. I am leaning Scholl because of the substantial scholarship, but if it is really difficult to maintain, then each school becomes close to equal. Please shed some light on my situation.
 
Messiah10 said:
So I am going to decide on the school I will attend this week. I have a large interest in getting the best surgical training, being surrounded by great staff and resources, and maximizing my ability to be matched at a top residency program. I would like to do this in the most cost effective way.

The schools I am considering are Temple, Scholl, and KSU. I took into account the averages that schools listed for tuition, personal expenses, and fees (insurance, books, other random fees). Due to the different scholarships I was offered here are the numbers I estimated on a yearly basis:

Temple = $51,000 per year
Scholl = $37,000 per year
KSU = $48,000 per year

Was wondering if anyone had input on my situation with the current residency shortage. I am leaning Scholl because of the substantial scholarship, but if it is really difficult to maintain, then each school becomes close to equal. Please shed some light on my situation.
Click to expand...

Scholl.
 
Scholl. Study your ass off and you will be rewarded twofold. Save a crapload of money with scholarships and it will help put you in a position to gain the results you want
 
Messiah10 said:
So I am going to decide on the school I will attend this week. I have a large interest in getting the best surgical training, being surrounded by great staff and resources, and maximizing my ability to be matched at a top residency program. I would like to do this in the most cost effective way.

The schools I am considering are Temple, Scholl, and KSU. I took into account the averages that schools listed for tuition, personal expenses, and fees (insurance, books, other random fees). Due to the different scholarships I was offered here are the numbers I estimated on a yearly basis:

Temple = $51,000 per year
Scholl = $37,000 per year
KSU = $48,000 per year

Was wondering if anyone had input on my situation with the current residency shortage. I am leaning Scholl because of the substantial scholarship, but if it is really difficult to maintain, then each school becomes close to equal. Please shed some light on my situation.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty big differential. I think Scholl is your best bet. And a scholarship only reinforces what you most likely want to do anyway: get good grades.
 
Messiah10 said:
So I am going to decide on the school I will attend this week. I have a large interest in getting the best surgical training, being surrounded by great staff and resources, and maximizing my ability to be matched at a top residency program. I would like to do this in the most cost effective way.

The schools I am considering are Temple, Scholl, and KSU. I took into account the averages that schools listed for tuition, personal expenses, and fees (insurance, books, other random fees). Due to the different scholarships I was offered here are the numbers I estimated on a yearly basis:

Temple = $51,000 per year
Scholl = $37,000 per year
KSU = $48,000 per year

Was wondering if anyone had input on my situation with the current residency shortage. I am leaning Scholl because of the substantial scholarship, but if it is really difficult to maintain, then each school becomes close to equal. Please shed some light on my situation.
Click to expand...
KSU CPM has a half tuition scholarship that it awards to anyone who had maintained a 4.0 for the school year. And if they have any more money left in their scholarship fund, then they give to other students with the next highest gpa. Currently our graduating class this year has 6 or 7 students who have maintained a 4.0 all 4 years. You do have to work hard to get the 4.0 but it is def. manageable once you get you stuyding technique down and are serious about getting good grades. I was able to the half tuition scholarship for 3 years. I lost it due to a B in my derm class 2nd sem of 3rd year, however I was still awarded some scholarship money for my fourth year. When I started, we were still OCPM and therefore an independent school, so i don't know if KSU is providing any other scholarships. You can always contact Kathy Wright at our financial aid office.
 
dyk343 said:
KSUCPM is bringing up the averages then.

There are some really surprising numbers listed there though, assuming they are accurate. I couldn't see how government aid would go to schools with such low graduation rates.
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The school is the second largest undergrad university in the state, only behind OSU. With more then half a dozen branch campuses throughout NE Ohio their State funding isn't going anywhere.

One question to ask is whether or not the articles includes students who use Kent's branch campuses as CC, a quick and cheap way to get cedit for classes. I know a handful of people who did this, including my wife who graduated from Kent's main campus in four years. Would some one like her have her degree count for both campuses she attended or just the main campus? Another thing to point out is both campuses listed are in rural areas. Majority of students who attend them probably wouldn't finish college regardless, especially the Tusc campus. Just some things to point out before we use a school's undergrad stats to guage how their only professional school will graduate their students.
 
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dyk343 said:
. I couldn't see how government aid would go to schools with such low graduation rates.
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What are you talking about?? That's the governments favorite pastime: funding failing programs!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using SDN Mobile
 
You have to ask yourself if you prefer the best ACADEMIC education, or CLINICAL education. Temple is known to have the highest clinic volume and hence the reason why they are seen as the most prepared clinically (patient interaction, hands on, etc.) The Iowa program on the other hand is seen as the best academic school, but any resident you ask from Des Moines will tell you they did not see near the amount of patients that Temple and NY sees. NY has a large clinic as well, but most clinicians will tell you that they are perhaps the lowest academically. Good luck in your decision!
 
Liz Frank said:
You have to ask yourself if you prefer the best ACADEMIC education, or CLINICAL education. Temple is known to have the highest clinic volume and hence the reason why they are seen as the most prepared clinically (patient interaction, hands on, etc.) The Iowa program on the other hand is seen as the best academic school, but any resident you ask from Des Moines will tell you they did not see near the amount of patients that Temple and NY sees. NY has a large clinic as well, but most clinicians will tell you that they are perhaps the lowest academically. Good luck in your decision!
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Since NY graduated 25% of all Pods in US history, I guess everyone's screwed then? Biased much?
 
NY placed 100% into residencies for 2013 and therefore, obviously has the connections. That is worth it's weight in gold. The best surgical training will come from your residency, so concentrate on the school that you feel will allow you the best opportunity to get you the type of residency you desire.
 
flyhi said:
NY placed 100% into residencies for 2013 and therefore, obviously has the connections. That is worth it's weight in gold. The best surgical training will come from your residency, so concentrate on the school that you feel will allow you the best opportunity to get you the type of residency you desire.
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👍

I see way too many pre-pods compare stupid things when the only things that should matter are clinics and residency placement.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
... Medical/science education is irrelevant??
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Not at all 🙂

But honestly, for the purposes of podiatry schools, students will get a great education anywhere, and while there are a ton of factors that should go into a decision to attend a school, the residency placement and clinics were very high on my list as well.

On the clinics topic, an instructor at NYCPM told me during my interview "if you can do something, or better yet, many things, with your hands, you're worth something to residencies." Stuck with me.
 
MaxillofacialMN said:
... Medical/science education is irrelevant??
Click to expand...
Not at all, but I wouldn't weigh pre-clinical curriculum that heavily when choosing a school. It's important but you can get an adequate education at any of the schools. There's too much material to cover and learn in class, so the it's up to the student anyway.

If you're looking at pre-clinical factors, things like curriculum structure, exam schedule, lecture attendance policies, etc are more important. Choose a school that fits your learning style.
 
I guess what in saying is good luck getting into clinic or getting a residency without passing boards first...


Also, can we cut the "all schools are equal for pre clinical" bs?? Clearly the schools (or the candidates they attract) are not equal or there wouldn't be consistent trends of board pass rates at each individual school.

I REALLY wish average scores were released for each school because those numbers would be very telling... If school A has 98% pass rate, and school B has 78% pass rate, it'd be real interesting to see scores....
 
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MaxillofacialMN said:
I guess what in saying is good luck getting into clinic or getting a residency without passing boards first...


Also, can we cut the "all schools are equal for pre clinical" bs?? Clearly the schools (or the candidates they attract) are not equal or there wouldn't be consistent trends of board pass rates at each individual school.

I REALLY wish average scores were released for each school because those numbers would be very telling... If school A has 98% pass rate, and school B has 78% pass rate, it'd be real interesting to see scores....
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Aren't the Boards based on pass/fail? Do the students even get a number score?

Like someone mentioned before, there is so much info to learn in Pod school and tested on the Boards that you pretty much end up learning most of it yourself. So yes, pre-clinicals are important but I'm sure Biochem at Pod school 1 is the same material in Pod school 2.

Would you review your entire year of O-chem notes from college when you have 5 weeks to study for the MCAT? Most people use prep books for that.
 
Yeah the boards are pass/fail, but according to some students, the test has some ridiculous questions and the writers need to be fired lol. That aside, I have an anecdote from CSPM when I interviewed there. They said the first time pass rate was 68%, the worst they've had. However, the retake is in two months, students stessentially miss nothing and don't fall behind, and the retake was 95% (1 failed). In this case, nothing prevented these students from getting into clinics and later residency. You can argue that a two-time taker may have a disadvantage, but that is another topic.

While I'm sure there are fantastic professors in some subjects in one school over another, there is absolutely no direct, complete correlation between classwork and board scores. You'll see even podiatry students use FA and other 'med school' board prep material and study their butt off before the boards. What I'm trying to say is that if the pre-clinical education is lacking in some areas at a certain school (which I doubt is very substantial, the ave. pass rate is in 80's% so vast majority pass), motivated students can very well get around that and pass the boards. When clinics come around, it really isn't possible to see more patients than the number that come into the clinics, and unfortunately, the schools vary greatly in patient volumes.
 
josebiwasabi said:
things like curriculum structure, exam schedule, lecture attendance policies, etc are more important. Choose a school that fits your learning style.
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This times 1,000 👍
 
It is a pass/fail test, but that's why I'm interested to see the actual numbers. If there were scores released, some schools would release them.


As for your CSPM story, I'd be hella ticked off if nearly a third of my class couldn't pass the first time when some schools have very nearly everyone pass first time. Does failing part one the first time delay your residency? No probably not, but I don't want to have to deal with the same boards twice. You'd have to study for it twice, stress about it twice (probably with considerably more stress the second time...).

Clearly the schools are doing enough to get the majority to pass. However, it's also clearly obvious to any observer that some schools do a better job than others.
 
Liz Frank said:
You have to ask yourself if you prefer the best ACADEMIC education, or CLINICAL education. Temple is known to have the highest clinic volume and hence the reason why they are seen as the most prepared clinically (patient interaction, hands on, etc.) The Iowa program on the other hand is seen as the best academic school, but any resident you ask from Des Moines will tell you they did not see near the amount of patients that Temple and NY sees. NY has a large clinic as well, but most clinicians will tell you that they are perhaps the lowest academically. Good luck in your decision!
Click to expand...


It seems to me Temple students lack clinical skills compared to other schools. Sure high clinic volume is important but what the students actually do in clinic is more important.
 
In response to all the hype over high clinic volume, I'll leave you all with this. I mentioned clinic volume weighing on my school decision when I was shadowing and the pod as well as the other pods in his practice said to leave clinic volume out of the decision making process.

His explanation was that when you're a student, you don't have the knowledge or skills to see a ton of patients in clinic. You should be more concerned with treating each patient thoroughly in your clinical years, taking as much time as you need, so that you are really "getting it" rather than rushing through patients worrying about getting to the next one because of high clinic volume. High volume should be a concern of which residency you choose, not school.

The pods went to a mix of historically low volume and high volume schools and all agreed.. He was also a residency director for a number of years,

Take that for what it's worth.
 
Zalligan said:
leave clinic volume out of the decision making process.

High volume should be a concern of which residency you choose, not school.
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Fine, but there's a reason why many MD/DO/DPM school advertise high clinical volumes, why many DO students from newer schools are feeling unprepared after their limited exposures, and why schools are vying for hospital associations. The question of high clinical exposure during training is a non-issue. Personally I would want to be on my feet at least the majority of the time. I seriously doubt students from Temple/NYCPM/etc. do a less than thorough job with patients given their clinics. And sure, externships may not expect much of students in a busy setting, but it is probably a damn good idea to impress them with the ability to do great things.
 
I think it depends on the person. High clinical volume may not give as much direction per patient but you get exposed to a lot more. It's up to the student to teach themselves as well/look things up at night that you did not know in clinic that day.

On the contrary, having an attending site down and explain all the details is also invaluable.

The grass is always greener on the other side....
 
iVTECdailyy said:
Do you have any hard data or evidence supporting this claim?
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I too would like to see hard data that could support a totally qualitative observation

I think most of us were accepted at multiple programs that all had strengths and weaknesses. I thought all 4 programs I visited (DMU, KSUCPM, NYCPM and Temple) where great and could have given me the tools to pass boards/ land a good residency and then some. The bottom line is that people choose the program that best suits their preferences. People that really want clinic exposure go to temple and NYCPM, those that think the pre-clinical years are most important choose a school like AZPOD or DMU, those that value beaches, cuban beans, and latina women go to Barry etc.

After having visited programs and reading what grads/4th years say on forum I don't think there is a best pod program. But, there is best program for you
 
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It puts a smile on my face everytime I read some post that suggests that DMU students spend their entire clinical years at our small on campus clinic. All that aside - entering students know very little (we don't even know the questions to ask) and the schools do even less to empower them (frequently withholding information). With as little information as people have to go on the decisions are more likely to be based on random gut feel, location, and some sort of mish-mash of marketing that stuck. We are not informed consumers. This site every once in awhile has some gems, but you have to weigh a lot of junk to get to it.
 
heybrother said:
It puts a smile on my face everytime I read some post that suggests that DMU students spend their entire clinical years at our small on campus clinic. All that aside - entering students know very little (we don't even know the questions to ask) and the schools do even less to empower them (frequently withholding information). With as little information as people have to go on the decisions are more likely to be based on random gut feel, location, and some sort of mish-mash of marketing that stuck. We are not informed consumers. This site every once in awhile has some gems, but you have to weigh a lot of junk to get to it.
Click to expand...

Agreed. There's something to be said about schools with multiple clinical sites varying from private office, VA, school clinic, etc. Many of the schools have the same clinic numbers its just that temple and NY have the one big/busy clinic. Perhaps a limited demographic, not much variety. Some schools let one student treat the patient. Others have multiple students in one room. From what I've come to know temple students lack in their assessment of patients in particular... maybe the attendings make those decisions. As a new incoming student I wouldn't be fooled by the "high volume" clinics.
 
Fetting said:
Agreed. There's something to be said about schools with multiple clinical sites varying from private office, VA, school clinic, etc. Many of the schools have the same clinic numbers its just that temple and NY have the one big/busy clinic. Perhaps a limited demographic, not much variety. Some schools let one student treat the patient. Others have multiple students in one room. From what I've come to know temple students lack in their assessment of patients in particular... maybe the attendings make those decisions. As a new incoming student I wouldn't be fooled by the "high volume" clinics.
Click to expand...

Once again, do you have any data / evidence supporting this claim?
 
iVTECdailyy said:
Once again, do you have any data / evidence supporting this claim?
Click to expand...
I'm going to assume that you realize that there is no objective way currently to support his subjective claim based on his experience and that that is, in fact, the point of your question. Let me just say that when the clinical portion of Part II boards is added, that may be a way to compare clinical assessment skills. Then again, I'll just assume that all of the schools will be as forth-coming and clear with the clinical portion of the test as they have been with the didactic portion. In that case, prospective students will continue to be forced to rely on hearsay and anonymous information online...

Personally I think the student is a bigger part of the equation than which school they go to. I've met students smarter than me and with more clinical acumen than me from about every school I've met students from. I went to a school (AZPod) with no real school clinic to speak of, and initially I was pretty jealous of students from schools with high clinic volume. I realized, however that we all had struggles and had different things we didn't know/know how to do.
 
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ldsrmdude said:
I'm going to assume that you realize that there is no objective way currently to support his subjective claim based on his experience and that that is, in fact, the point of your question. Let me just say that when the clinical portion of Part II boards is added, that may be a way to compare clinical assessment skills. Then again, I'll just assume that all of the schools will be as forth-coming and clear with the clinical portion of the test as they have been with the didactic portion. In that case, prospective students will continue to be forced to rely on hearsay and anonymous information online...

Personally I think the student is a bigger part of the equation than which school they go to. I've met students smarter than me and with more clinical acumen than me from about every school I've met students from. I went to a school (AZPod) with no real school clinic to speak of, and initially I was pretty jealous of students from schools with high clinic volume. I realized, however that we all had struggles and had different things we didn't know/know how to do.
Click to expand...

I agree with the student part. I visited the same podiatry school twice, the first visit I was not impressed by the students I saw in the clinics. This one student didn't know the most simplest procedures. I think I knew more than him just from my shadowing experience with Pods. Also that student even told me that he applied to Pod school after being wait-listed from dental school twice. I remember thinking "Why would you tell a pre-pod that? Great job on portraying Pod as a backup."

The second time I visited, one of the students there was very impressive. He completely blew me away about the info that he know and how confident he was with the patient. He was sprouting out info like he was reciting from the textbook.
 
iVTECdailyy said:
Once again, do you have any data / evidence supporting this claim?
Click to expand...

Data/evidence? I have my experiences and my opnion as well as the opinions of others. I'm not saying everyone at Temple lacks certain skills but I will say that the clinical experience at Temple is likely not better than other schools simply based on volume.

I agree with the other posters that it's all about the student. I don't think there are many students who end up really good or really bad based on where they went. If you have the motivation, passion and ability you will develop into a good clinician no matter where you go. It's not like there are teachers/instructors/doctors at any one school who are so great that they will magically transform someone with little promise into an amazing clinician.
 
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