Input on URM 4.0/517 with 123 in CARS

[DoctorSnow]

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Placed in Pre-med forum since this post is asking about any input on this situation and not specifically about school list.

I have been helping a few juniors with their applications for medical school since our school's advisors are horrible. I'm stumped on helping this guy with a school list because a 123 in CARS might be auto-screened by a lot of schools. Does anyone have input to share about this situation? I told him to not retake because who in their right mind would retake a 517, but which schools should he shoot for?

GPA: 4.0
MCAT: 517 (132/123/131/131)
Demographics: URM - Hispanic male
Residence: SD
Clinical Experience:
150 hours of working at Native American clinic (on reservation)
Will be getting a NA position for this spring/summer (~400 hours)
Volunteer Experience:
300 hours of working on reservation shelters, soup kitchens, and building affordable housing
Research Experience:
1200 hours of working with genetic research - 1 secondary author publication
Leadership:
President of student body
VP of biology club
Supervisor of 3 undergrads for research
Shadowing:
50 hours spread out with primary care and surgery

Any input is welcome!

 

[LizzyM]

Spanish speaker? ESL? If yes to either (or both) it might make a difference to some schools but, frankly, this guy can apply anywhere he pleases. There will be a bidding war over him.

Let me know a year from now how many offers he has; I'm pegging the under/over at 6.

 

[deleted887473]

Spanish speaker? ESL? If yes to either (or both) it might make a difference to some schools but, frankly, this guy can apply anywhere he pleases. There will be a bidding war over him.

Let me know a year from now how many offers he has; I'm pegging the under/over at 6.

Not to hijak this thread but would you consider ESL as currently in the ESL curriculum or just the motion that English is the applicant's second language?

 

[DoctorSnow]

Spanish speaker? ESL? If yes to either (or both) it might make a difference to some schools but, frankly, this guy can apply anywhere he pleases. There will be a bidding war over him.

Let me know a year from now how many offers he has; I'm pegging the under/over at 6.

Speaks Spanish moderately well (has taken spanish 3) but not ESL. Parents are 2nd generation from Mexico.

I'll be sure to tell him that! 😉

 

[965978]

Speaks Spanish moderately well (has taken spanish 3) but not ESL. Parents are 2nd generation from Mexico.

I'll be sure to tell him that! 😉

Is he disadvantaged? That can also be very significant.

 

[DoctorSnow]

Is he disadvantaged? That can also be very significant.

Parents in health care field so I'd doubt it. I'm guessing he's not lower-SES disadvantaged.

 

[965978]

Parents in health care field so I'd doubt it. I'm guessing he's not lower-SES disadvantaged.

I'd be careful to assume. It's very difficult to make ends meet some health care jobs (especially CNA).

 

[DoctorSnow]

I'd be careful to assume. It's very difficult to make ends meet some health care jobs (especially CNA).

Well one parent is an orthopedic surgeon and another is something with administration. So I think it's safe to assume 😉

 

[931408]

Spanish speaker? ESL? If yes to either (or both) it might make a difference to some schools but, frankly, this guy can apply anywhere he pleases. There will be a bidding war over him.

Let me know a year from now how many offers he has; I'm pegging the under/over at 6.

I can't imagine a 123 CARS no matter the circumstance do that well in the process. Sure, I can envision him getting into med school but "applying anywhere he pleases?" That's way too much of a reach. I suggest he applies conservatively, even with the 517 MCAT. Schools want to see balanced scores and don't take too kindly to unbalanced scores.

 

[965978]

Well one parent is an orthopedic surgeon and another is something with administration. So I think it's safe to assume 😉

Oh ok in that case I agree with you 😀

 

[ndafife]

Placed in Pre-med forum since this post is asking about any input on this situation and not specifically about school list.

I have been helping a few juniors with their applications for medical school since our school's advisors are horrible. I'm stumped on helping this guy with a school list because a 123 in CARS might be auto-screened by a lot of schools. Does anyone have input to share about this situation? I told him to not retake because who in their right mind would retake a 517, but which schools should he shoot for?

GPA: 4.0
MCAT: 517 (132/123/131/131)
Demographics: URM - Hispanic male
Residence: SD
Clinical Experience:
150 hours of working at Native American clinic (on reservation)
Will be getting a NA position for this spring/summer (~400 hours)
Volunteer Experience:
300 hours of working on reservation shelters, soup kitchens, and building affordable housing
Research Experience:
1200 hours of working with genetic research - 1 secondary author publication
Leadership:
President of student body
VP of biology club
Supervisor of 3 undergrads for research
Shadowing:
50 hours spread out with primary care and surgery

Any input is welcome!

SD resident with resume showing stong commitment to the Native American community would have him pretty competitive at USD with much worse stats. I'd say he's pretty close to a shoo-in there and can get as aggressive as he wants with the rest of his list

 

[DoctorSnow]

I can't imagine a 123 CARS no matter the circumstance do that well in the process. Sure, I can envision him getting into med school but "applying anywhere he pleases?" That's way too much of a reach. I suggest he applies conservatively, even with the 517 MCAT. Schools want to see balanced scores and don't take too kindly to unbalanced scores.

See, that was my thought process for this situation. His application is outstanding for means of our state school and others in surrounding states, but with a 123 in CARS, I felt like many schools would autoscreen him out. Most of the top schools have extremely balanced subsection scores with a little "wiggle" room for CARS (but 10th percentile is always >125).

 

[Goro]

Placed in Pre-med forum since this post is asking about any input on this situation and not specifically about school list.

I have been helping a few juniors with their applications for medical school since our school's advisors are horrible. I'm stumped on helping this guy with a school list because a 123 in CARS might be auto-screened by a lot of schools. Does anyone have input to share about this situation? I told him to not retake because who in their right mind would retake a 517, but which schools should he shoot for?

GPA: 4.0
MCAT: 517 (132/123/131/131)
Demographics: URM - Hispanic male
Residence: SD
Clinical Experience:
150 hours of working at Native American clinic (on reservation)
Will be getting a NA position for this spring/summer (~400 hours)
Volunteer Experience:
300 hours of working on reservation shelters, soup kitchens, and building affordable housing
Research Experience:
1200 hours of working with genetic research - 1 secondary author publication
Leadership:
President of student body
VP of biology club
Supervisor of 3 undergrads for research
Shadowing:
50 hours spread out with primary care and surgery

Any input is welcome!

Have him start list with WashU and then radiate outwards.

 

[Lucca]

hmmm some very bright students just get nailed on CARS sometimes.

tbh I have no idea how cycles like this go. Their ECs look very good. President of student body + 1000 hrs of research w/2nd author is no joke. I think they should apply to a broad mix of schools. I would include all of the UCs that dont have regional missions since they rly do holistic review and would be more likely to comb over an app like this.

 

[LizzyM]

This is going to be a discussion at adcom meetings. He isn't an ESL student (if he were, he might be cut some slack on CARS) but he does speak Spanish and he does self-identify as Mexican-American. On the other hand, some adcom members will say, he comes from a family with resources and if the best he could do on the MCAT was CARS 123, he's a risk....
That said, some schools will overlook the CARS given that he's done well in college and in the other three sections of the exam. I'm still saying that he should have 6 offers by this time next year.

 

[931408]

Have him start list with WashU and then radiate outwards.

This is going to be a discussion at adcom meetings. He isn't an ESL student (if he were, he might be cut some slack on CARS) but he does speak Spanish and he does self-identify as Mexican-American. On the other hand, some adcom members will say, he comes from a family with resources and if the best he could do on the MCAT was CARS 123, he's a risk....
That said, some schools will overlook the CARS given that he's done well in college and in the other three sections of the exam. I'm still saying that he should have 6 offers by this time next year.

With all due respect, I want to see someone at a top 20 med school with a <125 CARS. I highly doubt it happens, and 123 is seriously pushing it.

 

[Isoval]

With all due respect, I want to see someone at a top 20 med school with a <125 CARS. I highly doubt it happens, and 123 is seriously pushing it.

On the contrary, I bet you could find a handful in most of the classes.

CARS has by far the widest variation in admissions, after all.

 

[931408]

On the contrary, I bet you could find a handful in most of the classes.

CARS has by far the widest variation in admissions, after all.

Yeah, it has the widest variation in admissions. That doesn't mean that top schools can tolerate a sub-125. The fact that it gets the most slack means that top schools don't necessarily expect a 129 or 130+ like they do in the other sections. People can be just fine at the top with a 126 or 127. A 125 makes it challenging, but it is still possible. I still stand by the fact that you won't find people with a <125 at a top 20.

 

[Ad2b]

I can't imagine a 123 CARS no matter the circumstance do that well in the process. Sure, I can envision him getting into med school but "applying anywhere he pleases?" That's way too much of a reach. I suggest he applies conservatively, even with the 517 MCAT. Schools want to see balanced scores and don't take too kindly to unbalanced scores.

You, premed/med student, arguing with adcom at some stratospheric allopathic med school

Gives me endless giggles... thank you!! <3

 

[931408]

You, premed/med student, arguing with adcom at some stratospheric allopathic med school

Gives me endless giggles... thank you!! <3

I'm literally just stating my opinion, especially after going through the cycle myself with a sub-125 CARS and an excellent rest of the application. Just because they are adcoms doesn't mean that they're God; they've done a lot of work for this site, and I'm grateful to them. That said, applicants like me who have a solid perspective on the process can definitely advise future applicants so they consider a retake or choose a different list of schools; you don't need to shut off my opinion because my "status" isn't as high.

Of the applicants I interviewed last year, none had a score < 126 in any section. I did have someone with a 124 who retook for 131.

LizzyM herself has stated that she hasn't interviewed anyone with a sub-125 other than this applicant here, and she's an adcom at a top school. Is this not clear enough evidence for you?

 

[Ad2b]

you don't need to shut off my opinion because my "status" isn't as high.

Didn't shut off your opinion because your status isn't high enough (mine's not either - I'm a nobody) but I don't argue with adcoms... ever.

 

[ick19]

See, that was my thought process for this situation. His application is outstanding for means of our state school and others in surrounding states, but with a 123 in CARS, I felt like many schools would autoscreen him out. Most of the top schools have extremely balanced subsection scores with a little "wiggle" room for CARS (but 10th percentile is always >125).

Please DO NOT advise that young man to take the exam ever again lol. My CARS score was sub 125 and I got into an Ivy league med school. Just tell him to be genuine in his truth and story. If a school screens out someone with a 517 with 123 sub score, he shouldn't want to go there anyway.

 

[Goro]

With all due respect, I want to see someone at a top 20 med school with a <125 CARS. I highly doubt it happens, and 123 is seriously pushing it.

It's not what you want, but what med schools want. In my own experience, the people who have most trouble with CARS are immigrants or 1st gen. Americans.

And somebody has to be int he < 10th %ile demographic. OP's friend will be one of those.

 

[OchemOficionado]

I'm literally just stating my opinion, especially after going through the cycle myself with a sub-125 CARS and an excellent rest of the application. Just because they are adcoms doesn't mean that they're God; they've done a lot of work for this site, and I'm grateful to them. That said, applicants like me who have a solid perspective on the process can definitely advise future applicants so they consider a retake or choose a different list of schools; you don't need to shut off my opinion because my "status" isn't as high.

All opinions are welcome so I don't think it's about status. Just keep in mind that your solid perspective is just your experience. Their perspective is based on reviewing thousands of applications, speaking with other adcoms, etc.

 

[DoctorSnow]

It's not what you want, but what med schools want. In my own experience, the people who have most trouble with CARS are immigrants or 1st gen. Americans.

And somebody has to be int he < 10th %ile demographic. OP's friend will be one of those.

That’s a great point. Every school has a broad range with GPA and MCAT. I was looking at Case Western and their median MCAT is 518 but the range is 503-526. Median GPA was 3.79 but range was 2.91-4.0. Obviously majority is closer to averages but interesting to think about what application allowed a 2.91 to get accepted to Case. If only MSAR had the ranges of stats.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm literally just stating my opinion, especially after going through the cycle myself with a sub-125 CARS and an excellent rest of the application. Just because they are adcoms doesn't mean that they're God; they've done a lot of work for this site, and I'm grateful to them. That said, applicants like me who have a solid perspective on the process can definitely advise future applicants so they consider a retake or choose a different list of schools; you don't need to shut off my opinion because my "status" isn't as high.



LizzyM herself has stated that she hasn't interviewed anyone with a sub-125 other than this applicant here, and she's an adcom at a top school. Is this not clear enough evidence for you?

I'm just one interviewer and I interview only 10%of all the interviewed applicants so it is entirely possible that we might see some sub-125s in our pool of interviewed candidates. A URM from SD with a 4.0 /517 is very very rare and adcoms find such novelty very, very attractive. I don't doubt that this candidate would have the academic horsepower to do well in medical school.

 

[965978]

This is going to be a discussion at adcom meetings. He isn't an ESL student (if he were, he might be cut some slack on CARS) but he does speak Spanish and he does self-identify as Mexican-American. On the other hand, some adcom members will say, he comes from a family with resources and if the best he could do on the MCAT was CARS 123, he's a risk....
That said, some schools will overlook the CARS given that he's done well in college and in the other three sections of the exam. I'm still saying that he should have 6 offers by this time next year.

At what score does CARS stop being an issue? 125? 126? 127?

 

[965978]

On a side note, I don’t even understand how a score pattern like this can even exist. This guy obliterated the CP, Bio, and PS sections, and all of them have some dense passages to read. Yet he blanked out on the one section that tests reading skills.

Usually when I see someone like this it’s because they have a very difficult time focusing on CARS because they find the passages to be dry and boring (Although I personally enjoyed several of them).

 

[LizzyM]

On a side note, I don’t even understand how a score pattern like this can even exist. This guy obliterated the CP, Bio, and PS sections, and all of them have some dense passages to read. Yet he blanked out on the one section that tests reading skills.

Usually when I see someone like this it’s because they have a very difficult time focusing on CARS because they find the passages to be dry and boring (Although I personally enjoyed several of them).

And some people get psyched out because they've been told and taken to heart that "people like them" don't do well in that section (or on any exam of this type).

We might ask if there is any data from prior students who scored poorly. How did they perform in our curriculum? If we have had students who have done well despite poor scores, that can be an argument for admitting such an applicant.

 

[DrFortiusNatando]

Placed in Pre-med forum since this post is asking about any input on this situation and not specifically about school list.

I have been helping a few juniors with their applications for medical school since our school's advisors are horrible. I'm stumped on helping this guy with a school list because a 123 in CARS might be auto-screened by a lot of schools. Does anyone have input to share about this situation? I told him to not retake because who in their right mind would retake a 517, but which schools should he shoot for?

GPA: 4.0
MCAT: 517 (132/123/131/131)
Demographics: URM - Hispanic male
Residence: SD
Clinical Experience:
150 hours of working at Native American clinic (on reservation)
Will be getting a NA position for this spring/summer (~400 hours)
Volunteer Experience:
300 hours of working on reservation shelters, soup kitchens, and building affordable housing
Research Experience:
1200 hours of working with genetic research - 1 secondary author publication
Leadership:
President of student body
VP of biology club
Supervisor of 3 undergrads for research
Shadowing:
50 hours spread out with primary care and surgery

Any input is welcome!

I agree with LizzyM that this guy is a unicorn and will be recruited by top schools, IF he can write compelling PS and secondaries. The CARS score worries me that he may not be a great writer. The best writers are those who read with vim and vigor since a young age. Someone who comes from a relatively advantaged background like this young man should have a higher CARS score if he read a lot as a youngster.
You don't name the UG or even give a tier. For T20 schools, especially Ivys, there is some snobbery about other UGs. A big state school from a state like ND is fine, and 4.0 impressive, but a 4.0 at a small unknown, like a bible college is not likely to impress tippy top ADCOMS. Again, especially bc one parent is an orthopedist. There will be some expectation that a privileged student choose a challenging undergrad school. For very disadvantaged applicants, the ADCOM is more likely to look the other way and select a few students from "no-name" schools, esp for URIM applicants from a place like ND. (but not the case for this applicant...)

 

[Lucca]

On a side note, I don’t even understand how a score pattern like this can even exist. This guy obliterated the CP, Bio, and PS sections, and all of them have some dense passages to read. Yet he blanked out on the one section that tests reading skills.

Usually when I see someone like this it’s because they have a very difficult time focusing on CARS because they find the passages to be dry and boring (Although I personally enjoyed several of them).

I teach CARS for a major company. Native English speakers struggling to break 125 on CARS with 128+ in every other section are extremely common, moreso than firstgen struggling with CARS in my personal experience, although the most challenging cases are definitely firstgen students who are recently immigrated from a non English speaking country.

CARS tests a very specific kind of reading comprehension that is not necessarily honed outside of standardized exams. I would go so far as to argue that CARS is the single best measurement of pure standardized test taking gamesmanship on the MCAT which requires facility and intuition for the English language but is not, imo, a direct measure of it. I’m first gen, ESL but most who only know me through text posts would be surprised to learn that I think (besides those who’ve been on the site long enough to remember that one time I got called out for using dearth incorrectly).

 

[DoctorSnow]

On a side note, I don’t even understand how a score pattern like this can even exist. This guy obliterated the CP, Bio, and PS sections, and all of them have some dense passages to read. Yet he blanked out on the one section that tests reading skills.

Usually when I see someone like this it’s because they have a very difficult time focusing on CARS because they find the passages to be dry and boring (Although I personally enjoyed several of them).

I had a 515 (130/125/130/130) and I know it's because the CARS passages were about extremely dry/boring topics that I had to read in a timed manner. During MCAT practice, I scored 128/129 on CARS if I gave myself an extra 2 minutes per passage. It's my Achilles heal 😉

 

[965978]

I had a 515 (130/125/130/130) and I know it's because the CARS passages were about extremely dry/boring topics that I had to read in a timed manner. During MCAT practice, I scored 128/128 on CARS if I gave myself an extra 2 minutes per passage. It's my Achilles heal 😉

I really wish that the passages had a much wider range of topics so that it can evenly balance out. I feel like the people who actually enjoy those types of passages have an inherent advantage 🙁

 

[DoctorSnow]

I agree with LizzyM that this guy is a unicorn and will be recruited by top schools, IF he can write compelling PS and secondaries. The CARS score worries me that he may not be a great writer. The best writers are those who read with vim and vigor since a young age. Someone who comes from a relatively advantaged background like this young man should have a higher CARS score if he read a lot as a youngster.
You don't name the UG or even give a tier. For T20 schools, especially Ivys, there is some snobbery about other UGs. A big state school from a state like ND is fine, and 4.0 impressive, but a 4.0 at a small unknown, like a bible college is not likely to impress tippy top ADCOMS. Again, especially bc one parent is an orthopedist. There will be some expectation that a privileged student choose a challenging undergrad school. For very disadvantaged applicants, the ADCOM is more likely to look the other way and select a few students from "no-name" schools, esp for URIM applicants from a place like ND. (but not the case for this applicant...)

Thanks for your response. The undergrad is well-known academic school in Midwest. Since our premed advisor has started keeping track about 5 years ago, we have an 89% acceptance rate (including reapplications of course). Most schools include USD, UND, UMN, Creighton, and Iowa.

 

[scrapy]

Please DO NOT advise that young man to take the exam ever again lol. My CARS score was sub 125 and I got into an Ivy league med school. Just tell him to be genuine in his truth and story. If a school screens out someone with a 517 with 123 sub score, he shouldn't want to go there anyway.

We’re gonna need some more details. Schools will cut CARS slack, but generally not for a score that low. It probably set you back more than you think

 

[scrapy]

I can't imagine a 123 CARS no matter the circumstance do that well in the process. Sure, I can envision him getting into med school but "applying anywhere he pleases?" That's way too much of a reach. I suggest he applies conservatively, even with the 517 MCAT. Schools want to see balanced scores and don't take too kindly to unbalanced scores.

What’s your opinion of balanced vs unbalanced? Unbalanced = 7+ point range per subscore?

 

[ick19]

We’re gonna need some more details. Schools will cut CARS slack, but generally not for a score that low. It probably set you back more than you think

Oh yea, it for sure set me back - maybe I would have received several more T20 acceptances. I guess I should clarity that a 123 may very well impact the student's application cycle, but he doesn't need to go to those institutions that would screen him out. That's just ridiculous, the guy has a 517 lol

 

[LukaDoncicLuk]

I'll take the over on 6 top 20 acceptances.

 

[scrapy]

Oh yea, it for sure set me back - maybe I would have received several more T20 acceptances. I guess I should clarity that a 123 may very well impact the student's application cycle, but he doesn't need to go to those institutions that would screen him out. That's just ridiculous, the guy has a 517 lol

There are a lot of 517’s out there with slightly more balanced or perfectly balanced scores. There will be even more in the next cycle

 

[Lomology]

I was in a similar situation ( 123 CARS, also URM) although with not nearly as high of an MCAT and my cycle went really well. I don't know how much of that is being a Texas applicant since it's perceived as being easier to get accepted.

 

[curbsideconsult]

I had a 515 (130/125/130/130) and I know it's because the CARS passages were about extremely dry/boring topics that I had to read in a timed manner. During MCAT practice, I scored 128/129 on CARS if I gave myself an extra 2 minutes per passage. It's my Achilles heal 😉

I see what you did their.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

In my own experience, the people who have most trouble with CARS are immigrants or 1st gen. Americans.

Seconded.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Sure, there might be some expectation that a privileged student chose a challenging undergraduate school. However, sometimes, there are family situations or parental strongarming that mean that students attend local schools, often ones that are much less selective than ones they could have gotten into or received acceptance to.

 

[deleted947265]

Placed in Pre-med forum since this post is asking about any input on this situation and not specifically about school list.

I have been helping a few juniors with their applications for medical school since our school's advisors are horrible. I'm stumped on helping this guy with a school list because a 123 in CARS might be auto-screened by a lot of schools. Does anyone have input to share about this situation? I told him to not retake because who in their right mind would retake a 517, but which schools should he shoot for?

GPA: 4.0
MCAT: 517 (132/123/131/131)
Demographics: URM - Hispanic male
Residence: SD
Clinical Experience:
150 hours of working at Native American clinic (on reservation)
Will be getting a NA position for this spring/summer (~400 hours)
Volunteer Experience:
300 hours of working on reservation shelters, soup kitchens, and building affordable housing
Research Experience:
1200 hours of working with genetic research - 1 secondary author publication
Leadership:
President of student body
VP of biology club
Supervisor of 3 undergrads for research
Shadowing:
50 hours spread out with primary care and surgery

Any input is welcome!

Dude's resume is stacked. He is very competitive for top schools.