Ins and outs of a production based model?

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MirrorTodd

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Getting out of the military soon and considering jobs. I've never worked production based so I really have no idea what that means. Job I'm considering states it is production based with income flexibility, 2 year partnership, no buy in, sign on bonus and other things like 401k match etc. But what does production based really mean? Do I do the billing myself? Do I get assigned random ass cases by the group and they do the billing and then pay me? And I just have to hope that they throw me some good cases?

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I don’t know how much you know about billing, so pardon me if you already know this. If nothing else, it’ll be educational for students/residents who don’t know it.

The group should be doing the billing for you.

Most groups have a “mixed” pay-per-point. The group’s cases (Private/cash/Medicare/Medicaid) are all averaged together , then a dollar value is assigned to a “point”. If you don’t have this “mixed” point, then a private insurance case might be worth $75-$125 a point, while a Medicaid/Medicare is like $18-$25. Groups figured out YEARS ago that this allowed too much disparity in pay (and friction), when the old partners put themselves with “good” surgeons (who had privately insured patients), and the new guys got stuck with the surgeons doing tons of Medicare.

As for “case assignments”, this can also hurt you. You get 7 “points” to start a lap chole. You only get 3, to do a hand case. Then, each 15 minutes is another point.

Therefore, a one hour lap chole gets 11 points (7 + 4) while a one hour hand case only gets 7 (3 + 4).

A FAST general sugeon, who does 4 lap choles (at 7 points per start) in 4 hours, could get you 44 points. (7 starts x 4) + (4 hours x 4).

A SLOW hand surgeon, who does 1 case in the same 4 hours, would only get you 19. (3 start points + 4 hours x 4).

This can be a HUGE difference.

1) Make sure there’s a “mixed” pay per point.

2) Make sure that new guys work with ALL the surgeons (“Sorry, Dr. Good/Fast Surgeon only works with Dr. Old Gas!!”)

3) Make sure that the case assignments are made by a different person, each day (or a scheduler who doesn’t play favorites). Senior partner may get to make the schedule every now and then (rotates) but not ALL the time.

4) In some ways, “pay per hour” may be more fair (regarding your time), but it can ALSO be manipulated (Senior partner puts himself in the room with ONE 8 hour case, and kicks back the whole time. Newbie gets stuck in the ENT room with 8-10 turnovers, hustling ALL day).

When I did production-based, I might do anywhere from 800-1200 points, per month. This was a “moderately busy” group, but nice lifestyle.

Just stuff to think about.
 
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I don’t know how much you know about billing, so pardon me if you already know this. If nothing else, it’ll be educational for students/residents who don’t know it.

The group should be doing the billing for you.

Most groups have a “mixed” pay-per-point. The group’s cases (Private/cash/Medicare/Medicaid) are all averaged together , then a dollar value is assigned to a “point”. If you don’t have this “mixed” point, then a private insurance case might be worth $75-$125 a point, while a Medicaid/Medicare is like $18-$25. Groups figured out YEARS ago that this allowed too much disparity in pay (and friction), when the old partners put themselves with “good” surgeons (who had privately insured patients), and the new guys got stuck with the surgeons doing tons of Medicare.

As for “case assignments”, this can also hurt you. You get 7 “points” to start a lap chole. You only get 3, to do a hand case. Then, each 15 minutes is another point.

Therefore, a one hour lap chole gets 11 points (7 + 4) while a one hour hand case only gets 7 (3 + 4).

A FAST general sugeon, who does 4 lap choles (at 7 points per start) in 4 hours, could get you 44 points. (7 starts x 4) + (4 hours x 4).

A SLOW hand surgeon, who does 1 case in the same 4 hours, would only get you 19. (3 start points + 4 hours x 4).

This can be a HUGE difference.

1) Make sure there’s a “mixed” pay per point.

2) Make sure that new guys work with ALL the surgeons (“Sorry, Dr. Good/Fast Surgeon only works with Dr. Old Gas!!”)

3) Make sure that the case assignments are made by a different person, each day (or a scheduler who doesn’t play favorites). Senior partner may get to make the schedule every now and then (rotates) but not ALL the time.

4) In some ways, “pay per hour” may be more fair (regarding your time), but it can ALSO be manipulated (Senior partner puts himself in the room with ONE 8 hour case, and kicks back the whole time. Newbie gets stuck in the ENT room with 8-10 turnovers, hustling ALL day).

When I did production-based, I might do anywhere from 800-1200 points, per month. This was a “moderately busy” group, but nice lifestyle.

Just stuff to think about.

This is a good post for tips on production based models. Some of your questions you should ask to your prospective group. Hopefully they’ll be upfront and honest. I assume ‘production based with income flexibility’ means work more make more or vice versa, work less make less. What’s the 2 year track for - voting rights? I assume so if there’s no buy-in.

You want to ensure you have equal access to the schedule meaning you have just as much right to the high production rooms as the more senior guys. It’s also worth knowing on average, how much vacation people typically take and what the average salary is. Normally you aren’t paid when you aren’t working in production-based models.

Make sure your ‘rate’ is the same as everyone else’s and you have equal access to the schedule. Are their stipends for call, or just all eat what you kill? Make sure you aren’t burdened w more call especially if not reimbursed appropriately.
 
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To piggyback onto what @DirtDocMD said, make sure the group is equatable and transparent in how the schedule & assignments are made.

Look at their schedules for the past 6 months and see if they are similar. Is everyone roughly getting the same amount of weekend calls? Is everyone rotating around the same?

Ask about the method(s) used for daily assignments. Is it procedure blind? Is it surgeon blind? Is it case number blind? How do they deal with schedule gaps? Are they having people go to more than one site during the day? Are they having people follow surgeons to various hospitals during the day?

Groups can do things in different ways and still be fair. But if you don’t ask the questions then you won’t be able to see if there is shenanigans occurring.
 
Getting out of the military soon and considering jobs. I've never worked production based so I really have no idea what that means. Job I'm considering states it is production based with income flexibility, 2 year partnership, no buy in, sign on bonus and other things like 401k match etc. But what does production based really mean? Do I do the billing myself? Do I get assigned random ass cases by the group and they do the billing and then pay me? And I just have to hope that they throw me some good cases?
Thank you for your service to the country and best of luck in your new location.
Despite the fact that you seem to disagree with me politically (I assume based on your negative posts about me), I have a great respect for your selfless contributions by your time in the military.

I hope you find a great group to continue your career with.
 
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Getting out of the military soon and considering jobs. I've never worked production based so I really have no idea what that means. Job I'm considering states it is production based with income flexibility, 2 year partnership, no buy in, sign on bonus and other things like 401k match etc. But what does production based really mean? Do I do the billing myself? Do I get assigned random ass cases by the group and they do the billing and then pay me? And I just have to hope that they throw me some good cases?
Immediately stop considering this job.
 
So many factors that make or break a production based system (many of which you have no control over): equitable distribution of cases, speed/ability of surgeons, turnover times…

Also two years to partner would give me pause in the current landscape. 50/50 the group is employed after 1.9yrs
 
So many factors that make or break a production based system (many of which you have no control over): equitable distribution of cases, speed/ability of surgeons, turnover times…

Also two years to partner would give me pause in the current landscape. 50/50 the group is employed after 1.9yrs
What are some things that I should ask about? Assuming that I might interview with them. Bonus structure for partners? The place bills themselves as fair and transparent but words are wind. Considering the job in large part because of location. Wife and I are open to moving almost anywhere, but obviously we have preferences for climate etc.
 
Thank you for your service to the country and best of luck in your new location.
Despite the fact that you seem to disagree with me politically (I assume based on your negative posts about me), I have a great respect for your selfless contributions by your time in the military.

I hope you find a great group to continue your career with.
Thank you, I appreciate the sentiment. I know that at the end of the day our personal politics stated on this site don't really matter as far who we are as people cause we ultimately want what is best for people
 
What are some things that I should ask about? Assuming that I might interview with them. Bonus structure for partners? The place bills themselves as fair and transparent but words are wind. Considering the job in large part because of location. Wife and I are open to moving almost anywhere, but obviously we have preferences for climate etc.
What do partners get that non-partners/associates do not have? You mentioned no buy-in. Do partners have profit sharing on top of the work? Do associates get the same unit value as partners? Some groups will pay associates something like 0.7-0.8x unit value for their cases.

For example, my group is 3 year partnership track but no buy-in as well. Everyone gets the same unit value. Schedule is overall fair with the exception of 1-2 old surgeons who must work with a specific anesthesiologist. Call is spread out evenly and can be freely traded/given away. Partnership only means voting privileges. We don't have any additional profit sharing because everything our group makes goes into our unit value after the overhead (billing, accounting, etc) and some stipends for schedulers and other administrative positions.
 
What do partners get that non-partners/associates do not have? You mentioned no buy-in. Do partners have profit sharing on top of the work? Do associates get the same unit value as partners? Some groups will pay associates something like 0.7-0.8x unit value for their cases.

For example, my group is 3 year partnership track but no buy-in as well. Everyone gets the same unit value. Schedule is overall fair with the exception of 1-2 old surgeons who must work with a specific anesthesiologist. Call is spread out evenly and can be freely traded/given away. Partnership only means voting privileges. We don't have any additional profit sharing because everything our group makes goes into our unit value after the overhead (billing, accounting, etc) and some stipends for schedulers and other administrative positions.
Does that mean that you are salaried or is it still production based?
 
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Some great responses here, and I also recently left a salaried position for a solely production-based one. For our group, that means there is no money without collections, so if I don't work, I don't generate money. The way I like to think about these things is how is the group screwing me and hiding money, because there are basically two money flows: money into the group in the form our insurance reimbursement and any hospital support, and money out of the group to the members in the form of salary, benefits, overhead, administrative positions (group, chair, etc), and whatever is left over. So, given that, how can the group hide money?

1) As others have said, they can manipulate the assignments so that you get worse insurance, lower-unit cases, and less paid-call opportunities. Some great examples above about how certain types of assignments pay worse in the form of either worse insurance or cases that are fewer units per hour, so to speak. Spines and ablations are good, hands and feet are bad.
- the way to combat this is a blended unit and equitable distribution of cases. In our case, everyone has a number every day that is assigned by algorithm that determines their pecking order. The top 4 people pick their cases. Everyone has equal access to be in the top 4. The person making daily assignments, after the top 4 pick, assigns people to rooms in descending order of likely units for a given assignment.

2) They can manipulate who gets the more lucrative paid-call assignments.
- the way to combat this is making call assignments by algorithm (Qgenda, EZCall, etc) and allowing a free, transparent market for trading, and making the calls lucrative enough that people will always pick them up if offered.

3) They can hide administrative stipends, profit-sharing, income from other ventures/venues.
- the way to combat this is frequent (monthly, quarterly)accounting statements that everyone sees so every member can see every dollar that is moved from one place to another. Maybe no one looks, but the fact that it's available makes it less likely that someone will hide something.

4) Witholding profit-sharing from non-partners. In the vast majority of groups, the only income is clinical revenue, so any overage after your salary, benefits, overhead are paid is just sitting around. Who gets that money? You? The partners? I know one group that collects +/- $55/unit, but pays a "salary" of $30/unit. The difference goes to overhead, expense reimbursement, retirement, etc. Whatever is left builds up and is eventually paid out as a bonus. It's not really a bonus, it's your money, you earned it. So you eventually get it all, just in various forms. This can be good from a tax perspective. But in other groups, the partners keep that overage and distribute it as profit-sharing. That ain't cool. You'd want to know this isn't happening in your group.
- the way to combat this is frequent (monthly, quarterly)accounting statements that everyone sees so every member can see every dollar that is moved from one place to another.

5) Some groups have multiple venues, and sometimes those venues' pay structures are different/better/worse. Do the members limit your ability to get assigned to other better venues? Do they try to more or less equalize the arrangements so that the effort😛ain:$$$ ratio is more or less the same from venue to venue? Or are some senior partners never at the mothership because they've carved out a sweetheart deal at the endo center or plastics office?

Other things to think about:

1) The not-working-not-earning thing sounds self-evident, but contrast this with a VA or academic job that accumulates sick-time. Everyone gets sick. Some people develop chronic illness. Some people break an ankle skiing. Some people get cancer. Are you going to earn enough more, compared to those more protected employed jobs, to offset the inevitable work-outages from injury and illness over the course of your career?

2) Benefits are often much more expensive in small, production-based groups. In my VA/university job, I paid $400/mo for a terrific PPO for the whole family. Same plan with my group would be $2000/mo. Disability insurance is even more important with a production-based job.

3) Working conditions can change quickly. You can gain/lose a venue. A Hospital CEO can change. Someone can leave the group. All of a sudden, you're working more (or less) than you'd like, but the cases have to get done; you're under contract. My own observation is that people gripe a lot when they're overworked, but MAN, do they gripe when they're under-worked...

4) In VA/academic jobs, you generally accumulate non-clinical responsibilities over time, which replace some of your clinical commitment. So as you age, you're maybe in the OR and on call less, and in an office/conference room more. And yet, your salary generally goes up (slowly) over time. In a production-based jobs, the only value you have to the group is the ability to bill for services, so as you age, you will be spending just as much time in an OR and on call as when you were young, assuming you want to keep making the same amount of money. Your income may or may not go up, depending on what you can negotiate with insurance companies and your venues.

Given all that, I made the move and have been very happy that I did, and I hope the same for you!
 
Many great points have been made above.

Another thing to look at is who are the decision-makers that run the group. For a large group, not every issue can be put to a group-wide vote. Some decisions need to be made by individuals. Same goes for managing relationships with hospitals, surgery centers, surgeons, etc.

Is there one old dude who’s been running things on his own for decades? Or is there a board with equal representation from different ages, subspecialists vs generalists, etc. and reasonable turnover so there is ample opportunity to sit at the table?

Do junior members of the group contribute fresh ideas for how to optimize the practice or are they expected to keep quiet and pay their dues?

Some of these can be difficult to assess, but they can have significant impacts on how compensation systems are structured, how well they function, and who they serve.
 
Immediately stop considering this job.

the best jobs all have partnership tracks. While you can certainly ignore ones that have it if you so desire, you are limiting your potential upside. The better option is to explore the details of that track as well as what you get on the other end of it as a partner.
 
Also consider nights and weekend call and how it is paid.

Are there stipends or is it valuable (lots of points/desireable) call?
 
Patently false. The only people saying that are those who have been raped while obtaining partnership.
Who hurt you?

If pay and treatment is equal from day one and the only difference between partner and partner track is voting rights, I wouldn’t call that rape. Maybe your definition differs from mine.

I think it’s reasonable to restrict voting rights to those who have demonstrated a minimal commitment to the group by sticking around a couple years. Everything else should be fair from day one.
 
Good pp partnership tracks are becoming more and more rare but they are out there, even in SoCal. Don’t paint with too broad of a brush.
 
I love our private practices production/eat what you kill model. Very fair group. Everybody gets paid the same per unit (mixed blended)-whether you’re doing a cataract or a lung transplant. You get paid from Anesthesia start to anesthesia end.

Obviously, the big concern that ppl initially have is whether some partners will get assigned the nice long cases, and others get quick turnover ‘crappy’ cases. But our group is so fair that everybody gets assigned both. So you just have to look at the culture of the group.

It all evens out. It’s a beautiful thing.

Production model is so great because even on a day that you are not on call and you are stuck late, you are getting paid! And if you wanna make some extra dough, just pick up some extra shifts, or volunteer to work late.
 
Good pp partnership tracks are becoming more and more rare but they are out there, even in SoCal. Don’t paint with too broad of a brush.
There are very few true fee for service even places (that’s I know of) in major urban top 5-7 population areas that’s are equal partnerships.

Maybe they exists but I’m not aware of
 
If you count being 20 minutes north of a bridge to a top five city, I am in one.
Glad there are still true fee for services places left. My sister just gave up her per minute fee for service after almost 23 years. And my brother place went hybrid 1099/w2 hospital pays them 2 years ago.

I hope ur compensation is still worthy of market rate (700k/40 hrs /10 weeks off) or more.

My brothers place was around 600k/60 hrs and 8 weeks off on average for the partners

My sisters place is 750k/60 hrs and 8-9 weeks off on average for most partners

Thus wasn’t worth it for them to continue

Both top 5 major population places
 
Patently false. The only people saying that are those who have been raped while obtaining partnership.

The highest paid docs I know in the specialty all went through a partnership track and all of them came out ahead financially for doing so. Does that mean every partnership track in the country was a good idea? Obviously and clearly not. But I would not throw the baby out with the bath water. I would be behind by millions of dollars if I did not take a job with a partnership track when I did, like after tax millions of dollars.

I suggest evaluating every job offer for it's own merits and going from there.

That is the advice I give to current medical students when I talk to them.
 
The highest paid docs I know in the specialty all went through a partnership track and all of them came out ahead financially for doing so. Does that mean every partnership track in the country was a good idea? Obviously and clearly not. But I would not throw the baby out with the bath water. I would be behind by millions of dollars if I did not take a job with a partnership track when I did, like after tax millions of dollars.

I suggest evaluating every job offer for it's own merits and going from there.

That is the advice I give to current medical students when I talk to them.
Let me be blunt. How long ago was this? 5 years ago? 10 years ago? Or more recently?

The market is completely nuts right now.

There may be that rare partnership track worth pursing. I just don’t see much upside these days. The ones who do advertise I’ve talked to them. It’s a struggle for them to recruit.

The most lucrative practices sold out years ago in many big cities.
 
Exactly; the speed and frequency with which the changes are happening are the big recent problem. No matter how stable a group has been, the chances of the model changing before your partnership track ends is exponentially greater now than in years past.
 
Exactly; the speed and frequency with which the changes are happening are the big recent problem. No matter how stable a group has been, the chances of the model changing before your partnership track ends is exponentially greater now than in years past.
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