Insincerity, selflessness, and apps

[Shredder]

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Consider Atlas Shrugged if you've read it. I'm really turned off by all the selflessness and altruism I have to fake during my med school apps. I hate being insincere and hypocritical. I don't have a bit of altruism on my app, and it will hurt me. I found this spiel on amazon.com, and it rings so true:

The field of Health Care Policy Management is rife with advocates for government controls peddling rehashed Marxism of how economic services are produced and should be distributed. Public policy "do-gooders" flock to the field, some with good intentions but most looking for a way to leave their mark to further their own political careers--i.e. to pass some illogical piece of legislation that sounds appealing to voters yet invariably makes things worse.

Doctors, for what they put up with in order to practice in the field they love, are heroes in my opinion. They are told that their time and services belong not to themselves but any man that walks into their office, that they must be omniscient or risk litigation, and that they must bend to the will of every administrator and bureaucrat who comes up with some new regulation to follow (which probably contradicts three others that are already on the books). As if that weren't enough, they are criticized for the pay the earn and sneered at by the public. But it shouldn't take heroic efforts to practice one's own profession.

Is there any way to reconcile my insincerity and be successful in getting into good schools? All the helping people and serving humanity is BS from brainwashing, gatekeeping adcoms. Are there ever successful, overtly selfish applicants?

Anybody else out there share these feelings? I know there are people, but is anyone disturbed by having to betray principles in order to get into a choice school?

 

[Tigerstang]

This might get me banned, but I don't care. If you are writing false, "hypocritical and insincere" statements on your application, then I hope to God you do not get into medical school. You are a sick human being. Your willingness to compromise your own integrity in order to advance your professional career is despicable at best. I spent my years on my college's honor committee kicking out pieces of filth like you.

 

[radioh3ad]

not gonna touch this one.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Consider Atlas Shrugged if you've read it. I'm really turned off by all the selflessness and altruism I have to fake during my med school apps. I hate being insincere and hypocritical. I don't have a bit of altruism on my app, and it will hurt me. I found this spiel on amazon.com, and it rings so true:
Is there any way to reconcile my insincerity and be successful in getting into good schools? All the helping people and serving humanity is BS from brainwashing, gatekeeping adcoms. Are there ever successful, overtly selfish applicants?

Anybody else out there share these feelings? I know there are people, but is anyone disturbed by having to betray principles in order to get into a choice school?

maybe Donald Trump can give you somew tips on altruism. 😀

 

[BaylorGuy]

I understand what you are saying shredder...however, i dont think many will agree with you.

It takes a certain type of individual to be a doctor. If you look at the doctors of 30 and 40 years ago, schools weren't looking for the best "well-rounded" students. They were looking for the best, smartest, most gifted students who would make excellent doctors. Doctors who knew their ****, and who would get up in arms at people who didn't (the most typical example of this are the old school surgeons who will throw instruments across rooms and yell at nurses for not knowing a vertical mattress stitch from a sub-Q stitch). I would go so far to say, that these doctors were the best in the biz. Unfortunately....these were also the physicians who wouldn't be able to communicate to patients

However, something changed...either because of litigation, legislation, legalization, etc...but schools were no longer looking for cardboard cut-outs physicians who knew the anatomy like the back of their hand. They wanted physicians who knew their ****, in addition to having the ability to communicate with people (there is another reason here for this change that i cant remember right now). They wanted more caring physicans, who could connect with patients and build a relationship with them. Altruism and humanity came on the scence. again, why this is the case??? I'm not positive.

I know how you feel though, its hard to be all goody and altruistic in a places that are filled with selfishness and materials. If i were you, i would change your attitude for interviews...i dont know how much adcoms and interviewers will look positivey upon an overtly selfish applicant. I guess they feel it is in the best interest of the profession not to let you into their school. However, I still think there are successful, selfish applicants...i think there are successful, bitter doctors, who came in with the idea that they would change the world, but only come to the realization that their ideas were just BS and they somehow bought into lies.

To those who think i'm spouting off random crap....keep a diary/journal now and then read it 8-15 years later after you've finished off residency and are working either in a hospital or in your own practice. I bet ya'll will laugh.

 

[OddNath]

Anybody else out there share these feelings? I know there are people, but is anyone disturbed by having to betray principles in order to get into a choice school?

I really never felt this way. Believe me, I hadn't done much volunteering and hated the idea of doing it only to give me an edge in the admissions process, so I never pretended like I had 3.5E4 hours under my belt. (I had been exposed to the clinic through paid research experiences)

From my understanding, adcoms aren't expecting any of us to be Mother Theresa's in order to be a competitive applicant. With all those secondary essays, I think they just want to see examples in our own lives where we may have reached out when it didn't necessarily help our own survival. Sure, reasons for helping people may very well be selfish-- even if helping someone out makes you "feel better about yourself", that's technically a selfish reason, right? So I really doubt that any school wants you to prove that there is absolutely no selfish motive behind your thoughts and actions, b/c I'm guessing that'd be impossible.

Anyhow, don't worry about it, I think they just want to see that we have a curiosity about the human experience, just my 2 cents~

 

[unfrozencaveman]

This might get me banned, but I don't care. If you are writing false, "hypocritical and insincere" statements on your application, then I hope to God you do not get into medical school. You are a sick human being. Your willingness to compromise your own integrity in order to advance your professional career is despicable at best. I spent my years on my college's honor committee kicking out pieces of filth like you.

Oh come on............ Come on! You can't be serious! Unless you are going into medicine as your cross to bear, completely against your will but for the good of humaity, you know some of what this dude is talking about. Did you even read what he said?

To put both views in better perspective-

Shredder- you're probably more altruistic than you think. Anyone can be mother theresa and NOT be a doctor. Going into medicine is just as much about self interest as it is the interest of others. You have to be actually interested in the work, the science, etc to want to go into it. You're a business guy- you know there are a million easier ways to make a lot of money, and if this path didnt interest you outside of the pure business aspects, you'd be well on your way to something else.

And on the other hand, like I said before, no one goes into medicine without a real PERSONAL interest in the job. There tons of ways to go out and help people if that's what you're into.

The thing is, as a doctor, you'll end up helping people even if it is just by accident, so you might as well stop beating yourself up over the lack of selflessness. Who doesn't want to help people? Enjoying doing it, and profiting from it doesnt make it any less helpful. If anyone is reading too far into your (shredder) having a lump of coal for a heart, it's you buddy.

 

[humuhumu]

To those who think i'm spouting off random crap....keep a diary/journal now and then read it 8-15 years later after you've finished off residency and are working either in a hospital or in your own practice. I bet ya'll will laugh.

This is great advice. Med school changes people, for better or for worse...

 

[jc11011]

I have a friend who was uncompromising in this respect. He had a 35 MCAT and a 3.8 GPA and was rejected from every school he applied to.😉

 

[Tigerstang]

Oh come on............ Come on! You can't be serious! Unless you are going into medicine as your cross to bear, completely against your will but for the good of humaity, you know some of what this dude is talking about. Did you even read what he said?

.

Did you? I'm not making any comments about his motivations for going into medicine. If he is doing it for profit, more power to him. Personally I think there are easier and faster ways, but hey, to each their own.

That being said, I will not back down from my belief that anyone who fabricates any part of their persona or their application in order to ingratiate themselves towards admissions committee members is an absolutely despicable human being. After all is said and done, we have very little left in our lives besides our own integrity. If one is so willing to compromise their integrity so early on in their lives, then theirs is truly a failed life.

Shredder, I suggest you do a closer reading of Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead as well. Your proposition to make hypocritical and insincere remarks in your application go entirely against her teachings and beliefs.

Actually, I am feeling particularly altruistic today, so I'll save you the trouble. I have this passage highlighted in my own copy of Atlas Shrugged:

People think that a liar gains a victory over his victim. What I've learned is that a lie is an act of self-abdication, because one surrenders one's reality to the person to whom one lies, making that person one's master, condemning one's self from then on to faking the sort of reality that person's view requires to be faked. And if one gains the immediate purpose of the lie - the price one pays is the destruction of that which the gain was intended to serve. The man who lies to the world, is the world's slave from then on.

To put this in a simple, down to Earth example: if you lie to an adcom member about your desire to serve and your presumed altruism, you will have to maintain that lie throughout your entire career at that institution, whenever you see that person.

While I believe Ms. Rand's explanation for the importance of integrity is somewhat lacking, it nonetheless provides a perfect explanation for the importance of integrity even to those who believe in the simplistic concept of selfish fulfillment, the most basic of the objectivist doctrines.

Again, read more Rand, and you'll begin to understand. And after you've read that, read some real philosophy.

 

[Shredder]

i will probably engage in altruism eventually, just like bill gates and donald trump do. but i dont think there should be any expectation for me or anyone to do so. i will be entitled to every penny i earn, and there is no obligation to give back anything. any giving back is purely out of the goodness of one's heart. so its actually not "giving back", it's just giving. fathom this, bill gates > mother theresa.

of all professional schools, the altruism mentality seems to have only pervaded medicine. i guess its an artificial way to weed out students instead of using legitimate criteria. med admissions seem to be increasingly pushing for the altruistic aspect, which just ends up producing a lot of insincerity and hypocrisy among applicants. its a shame. sigh, liberalism totally taking over academia and making it a hellish road for fighting righties like myself.

 

[wends]

its one thing to write in your ps that you're going into medicine not so much to help people but because you like the science and want to pursue academia (i dont know if you do, just an example) and be honest about your activities, but its another to say crap just for the sake of saying crap. i think adcoms can see thru pre-med crap. as long as you have activities outside of school you should be ok.

why do you want to be a doctor? if its for money, honey there are plenty of other jobs that will earn you so much more!!! and less painfully too!!!! if its to be a top scientist, i think the top schools will want a person who has done reseach and show that they do want to pursue it more. one interviewer told me that med schools do sacrifice social skills in an applicant for someone who will contribute to science in research.

but honestly, if you work with people everyday and see humans suffer through illness and are not moved or only see them as a case, then dear, i dont want you as my doctor! have you ever sat in an office with an illness adn the doctor treated you like you were just another payday? it doesnt feel very good.

 

[wends]

i will probably engage in altruism eventually, just like bill gates and donald trump do. but i dont think there should be any expectation for me or anyone to do so. i will be entitled to every penny i earn, and there is no obligation to give back anything. any giving back is purely out of the goodness of one's heart. so its actually not "giving back", it's just giving. fathom this, bill gates > mother theresa.

of all professional schools, the altruism mentality seems to have only pervaded medicine. i guess its an artificial way to weed out students instead of using legitimate criteria. med admissions seem to be increasingly pushing for the altruistic aspect, which just ends up producing a lot of insincerity and hypocrisy among applicants. its a shame. sigh, liberalism totally taking over academia and making it a hellish road for fighting righties like myself.

ultriusm does have be monetary. it could be time, compassion, empathy. you don't have to give your patients money, but give them respect and listen to them like they matter is all any sick person would want. i think med schools want to see clinical exposure to make sure that doctors understand a patients perspective, to experience the other side. mother theresa was revered because she cared for the people that no one else did. she made people on teh sidelines feel loved and important.

 

[Shredder]

Oh come on............ Come on! You can't be serious! Unless you are going into medicine as your cross to bear, completely against your will but for the good of humaity, you know some of what this dude is talking about. Did you even read what he said?

To put both views in better perspective-

Shredder- you're probably more altruistic than you think. Anyone can be mother theresa and NOT be a doctor. Going into medicine is just as much about self interest as it is the interest of others. You have to be actually interested in the work, the science, etc to want to go into it. You're a business guy- you know there are a million easier ways to make a lot of money, and if this path didnt interest you outside of the pure business aspects, you'd be well on your way to something else.

And on the other hand, like I said before, no one goes into medicine without a real PERSONAL interest in the job. There tons of ways to go out and help people if that's what you're into.

The thing is, as a doctor, you'll end up helping people even if it is just by accident, so you might as well stop beating yourself up over the lack of selflessness. Who doesn't want to help people? Enjoying doing it, and profiting from it doesnt make it any less helpful. If anyone is reading too far into your (shredder) having a lump of coal for a heart, it's you buddy.

no i didnt mean to beat myself up, i agree with your logic. thats the way the invisible hand works. im allowed to pursue my own interest as long as i follow the rules, and others will benefit accordingly even if i dont care that they do. i certainly think any premed who plans to make money by screwing over patients shouldnt be admitted. however, if i say i want to make tons of money as a doc through legitimate means, i think adcoms should look very favorably upon it. i dont need to have anyones interests but my own at heart, no altruism whatsoever. but the aggregate self interest promotes the social interest. greed, within the rules, is good.

 

[Chinorlz]

Did you? I'm not making any comments about his motivations for going into medicine. If he is doing it for profit, more power to him. Personally I think there are easier and faster ways, but hey, to each their own.

That being said, I will not back down from my belief that anyone who fabricates any part of their persona or their application in order to ingratiate themselves towards admissions committee members is an absolutely despicable human being. After all is said and done, we have very little left in our lives besides our own integrity. If one is so willing to compromise their integrity so early on in their lives, then theirs is truly a failed life.

Shredder, I suggest you do a closer reading of Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead as well. Your proposition to make hypocritical and insincere remarks in your application go entirely against her teachings and beliefs.

Actually, I am feeling particularly altruistic today, so I'll save you the trouble. I have this passage highlighted in my own copy of Atlas Shrugged:

People think that a liar gains a victory over his victim. What I've learned is that a lie is an act of self-abdication, because one surrenders one's reality to the person to whom one lies, making that person one's master, condemning one's self from then on to faking the sort of reality that person's view requires to be faked. And if one gains the immediate purpose of the lie - the price one pays is the destruction of that which the gain was intended to serve. The man who lies to the world, is the world's slave from then on.

To put this in a simple, down to Earth example: if you lie to an adcom member about your desire to serve and your presumed altruism, you will have to maintain that lie throughout your entire career at that institution, whenever you see that person.

While I believe Ms. Raynd's explanation for the importance of integrity is somewhat lacking, it nonetheless provides a perfect explanation for the importance of integrity even to those who believe in the simplistic concept of selfish fulfillment, the most basic of the objectivist doctrines.

Again, read more Raynd, and you'll begin to understand. And after you've read that, read some real philosophy.

At least read her books a little closer if you are going to make her out to be the next Jesus... you didn't even spell her last name right.

I agree with you on misrepresentation of oneself to Adcoms, but you're making Rand out to be g*ddamn Buddha. I personally do NOT group her into the category of "philosopher". More of an "idealist" living in a time where she opposted Communism.

 

[Tigerstang]

i will probably engage in altruism eventually, just like bill gates and donald trump do. but i dont think there should be any expectation for me or anyone to do so. i will be entitled to every penny i earn, and there is no obligation to give back anything. any giving back is purely out of the goodness of one's heart.

Ironic, considering you go to a state institution. No obligation to give back, huh? Even though you received reduced tuition thanks to the state government?

 

[Tigerstang]

I personally believe Rand's books are crap. Choc-full of haughtiness and self-serving oh-look-at-me-portray-how-I-think-the-IDEAL-man-should-be BS. Anthem was a waste of my time (OMG! Another post-apocalyptic book! How genius and original!), and I have yet to meet someone who "loved" the Fountainhead or Atlas shrugged that doesn't suck.

I agree with you on misrepresentation of oneself to Adcoms, but you're making Rand out to be g*ddamn Buddha. I personally do NOT group her into the category of "philosopher". More of an "idealist" living in a time where she opposted Communism.

Umm I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't call Rand a philosopher, at all. I said he should read more Rand and then read some real philosophy. I agree with you that her philosophy is pretty weak. But I was just trying to make the point that it's deeper than what the OP described it as.

And sorry for the typo. I've had a few beers this evening.

 

[oompa loompa]

I understand what you are saying shredder...however, i dont think many will agree with you.

It takes a certain type of individual to be a doctor. If you look at the doctors of 30 and 40 years ago, schools weren't looking for the best "well-rounded" students. They were looking for the best, smartest, most gifted students who would make excellent doctors. Doctors who knew their ****, and who would get up in arms at people who didn't (the most typical example of this are the old school surgeons who will throw instruments across rooms and yell at nurses for not knowing a vertical mattress stitch from a sub-Q stitch). I would go so far to say, that these doctors were the best in the biz. Unfortunately....these were also the physicians who wouldn't be able to communicate to patients

However, something changed...either because of litigation, legislation, legalization, etc...but schools were no longer looking for cardboard cut-outs physicians who knew the anatomy like the back of their hand. They wanted physicians who knew their ****, in addition to having the ability to communicate with people (there is another reason here for this change that i cant remember right now). They wanted more caring physicans, who could connect with patients and build a relationship with them. Altruism and humanity came on the scence. again, why this is the case??? I'm not positive.

I know how you feel though, its hard to be all goody and altruistic in a places that are filled with selfishness and materials. If i were you, i would change your attitude for interviews...i dont know how much adcoms and interviewers will look positivey upon an overtly selfish applicant. I guess they feel it is in the best interest of the profession not to let you into their school. However, I still think there are successful, selfish applicants...i think there are successful, bitter doctors, who came in with the idea that they would change the world, but only come to the realization that their ideas were just BS and they somehow bought into lies.

To those who think i'm spouting off random crap....keep a diary/journal now and then read it 8-15 years later after you've finished off residency and are working either in a hospital or in your own practice. I bet ya'll will laugh.

i agree w/ this post (and unfrozen caveman's). Your problem is not that you're selfish--we ALL are. It's that you seem somehow proud of this trait (if I'm wrong, tell me, but your whole obsession w/ Atlas Shrugged is telling). Anyway, I think your attitude is a sign of immaturity more than anything else...

No one is going to sympathize w/ someone who likes broadcasting that they're selfish and turned off by altruistic activities.

 

[Chinorlz]

Umm I don't know if you noticed, but I didn't call Rand a philosopher, at all. I said he should read more Rand and then read some real philosophy. I agree with you that her philosophy is pretty weak. But I was just trying to make the point that it's deeper than what the OP described it as.

And sorry for the typo. I've had a few beers this evening.

Fair enough mate, I understand your argument.

Take home message: You are a sheisty wanker if you lie to Adcoms!

 

[unfrozencaveman]

i will probably engage in altruism eventually, just like bill gates and donald trump do. but i dont think there should be any expectation for me or anyone to do so. i will be entitled to every penny i earn, and there is no obligation to give back anything. any giving back is purely out of the goodness of one's heart. so its actually not "giving back", it's just giving. fathom this, bill gates > mother theresa.

of all professional schools, the altruism mentality seems to have only pervaded medicine. i guess its an artificial way to weed out students instead of using legitimate criteria. med admissions seem to be increasingly pushing for the altruistic aspect, which just ends up producing a lot of insincerity and hypocrisy among applicants. its a shame. sigh, liberalism totally taking over academia and making it a hellish road for fighting righties like myself.

Urr, now I'll admit to being lost. One, I thought the entire point of the original thread was that he had a distaste for people who do fabricate their selflessness for the point of med school apps- which he wasnt willing to do, hence the question about the success of people who choose the same route.

But, altruism is not an "artificial" way to weed out students. What are legitimate criteria? I mean, whether you like it or not, you'll be helping people as a doctor, and not making as much as you could be elsewhere. What do the liberals have to do with it?

Where am I?

 

[Tigerstang]

Fair enough mate, I understand your argument.

Take home message: You are a sheisty wanker if you lie to Adcoms!

I could not have said it better myself.

 

[wends]

you people are so cynical 🙁 you make it seems that all doctor wannabe's have hidden agendas and no one really enjoy treating people. i hope this voice is not the majority.

 

[Shredder]

Urr, now I'll admit to being lost. One, I thought the entire point of the original thread was that he had a distaste for people who do fabricate their selflessness for the point of med school apps- which he wasnt willing to do, hence the question about the success of people who choose the same route.

But, altruism is not an "artificial" way to weed out students. What are legitimate criteria? I mean, whether you like it or not, you'll be helping people as a doctor, and not making as much as you could be elsewhere. What do the liberals have to do with it?

Where am I?

i dont know, im confused too. i think altruisms fine to put on amcas, but when they start throwing it into secondaries thats pushing it. they should at least make it optional, and not penalize the hell out of you if you dont answer it. my point was the invisible hand concept, self interest and social interest.

concerning why i have to compromise my ideals in my apps

I have a friend who was uncompromising in this respect. He had a 35 MCAT and a 3.8 GPA and was rejected from every school he applied to.😉

poor friend, i feel for him but i dont plan on being him

id rather be a cynical premed/anybody than a naive one

 

[CTSballer11]

This might get me banned, but I don't care. If you are writing false, "hypocritical and insincere" statements on your application, then I hope to God you do not get into medical school. You are a sick human being. Your willingness to compromise your own integrity in order to advance your professional career is despicable at best. I spent my years on my college's honor committee kicking out pieces of filth like you.

Are you joking? This country we live in is far from perfect, and if shredder does not lie a little about his reasons for medicine some else will. Medical school admissions is a game. My advice to shredder: Play the game.

 

[Tigerstang]

Are you joking? This country we live in is far from perfect, and if shredder does not lie a little about his reasons for medicine some else will. Medical school admissions is a game. My advice to shredder: Play the game.

It saddens me to realize you're serious.

 

[anystream]

Are you joking? This country we live in is far from perfect, and if shredder does not lie a little about his reasons for medicine some else will. Medical school admissions is a game. My advice to shredder: Play the game.

i think when you're another selfish pre-med (or anybody), people can spot it from a mile away. the truth is, when you're an unlikable person, others will not like to see you succeed. i can think of many, many genuine, caring, hardworking people who didn't do as well on the MCAT but deserve a spot in medical school. you'll probably get it over them, but it makes me a little sad to think about.

 

[Shredder]

Are you joking? This country we live in is far from perfect, and if shredder does not lie a little about his reasons for medicine some else will. Medical school admissions is a game. My advice to shredder: Play the game.

i know, but are there no schools with a different game, a game without the facades? i know there are other professional schools without it, such as law and business like i mentioned earlier. nowhere is the altruism factor as hiked up as in med schools. the more you factor in altruism in applicants, the more compromise you will have to make in potential skills as docs. you cant have your cake and eat it too, every admissions criterion comes at the expense of another. there are probably a lot of people who could have been/could be great docs who are turned away from medicine bc of all the BS. im bordering on that line.

 

[Shredder]

i think when you're another selfish pre-med (or anybody), people can spot it from a mile away. the truth is, when you're an unlikable person, others will not like to see you succeed. i can think of many, many genuine, caring, hardworking people who didn't do as well on the MCAT but deserve a spot in medical school. you'll probably get it over them, but it makes me a little sad to think about.

the MCAT is supposed to be a predictor of success in med school/maybe after med school, not sure about that. but it is an indicator, thats what tests are in the business of, otherwise theyre worthless. when your life is on the line, youre not going to care about how genuine, caring, or hardworking your doc is, you will care about how he gets the job done. and heres the thing, if he does a smashing job it leads to more money for him in the long run, not only by the return service you give him but by all the people you refer to him and all the publicity he gains.

 

[Tigerstang]

The state can give reduced tuition because I pay taxes to it.

Hahahhahahaa. You think your taxes cover your individual reduction in tuition? Hahahaha. And it also covers your use of the police department, your reduced costs for power, water, sewage, trash pick up, all the airport security, border security (the OP is from Texas, after all), and every other governmental perk you enjoy. Right.

Not to mention your parents paid the taxes, not YOU.

 

[Tigerstang]

you cant have your cake and eat it too, every admissions criterion comes at the expense of another. there are probably a lot of people who could have been/could be great docs who are turned away from medicine bc of all the BS. im bordering on that line.

That's where you are mistaken. There are plenty of qualified individuals who also have a burning desire to help their fellow human beings. If you haven't noticed, thousands of people get turned away every year. It's not like they are desperate for more applicants here.

 

[Shredder]

The state can give reduced tuition because I pay taxes to it.

ha yeah, and its not like if you go to another state you get their subsidized tuition. out of state tuition, anybody? those subsidies dont appear out of thin air.

+ut stinks, if i had known what i now know i wouldve gone elsewhere, and i plan to go private from here on out.

 

[Tigerstang]

ha yeah, and its not like if you go to another state you get their subsidized tuition. out of state tuition, anybody? those subsidies dont appear out of thin air.

+ut stinks, if i had known what i now know i wouldve gone elsewhere, and i plan to go private from here on out.

I dunno about UT, but after looking at your MD Apps profile I have to say: Dartmouth as the back door to the Ivy League. Hilarious. You might be a bastard, but at least you're a funny one 😀

 

[Shredder]

Hahahhahahaa. You think your taxes cover your individual reduction in tuition? Hahahaha. And it also covers your use of the police department, your reduced costs for power, water, sewage, trash pick up, all the airport security, border security (the OP is from Texas, after all), and every other governmental perk you enjoy. Right.

whenever you use taxes to subsidize some public good, some people win and others lose. in the end everybody loses due to the inefficiency of the public sector. even if i win on state tuition, i lose on roads i dont use, other schools that i dont attend, and welfare that i dont receive.

That's where you are mistaken. There are plenty of qualified individuals who also have a burning desire to help their fellow human beings. If you haven't noticed, thousands of people get turned away every year. It's not like they are desperate for more applicants here.

let them go into social work. med school is for highly skilled people to save lives, burning desire or not. nobody needs a burning desire to get a job, they just need to get the job done and done well. thousands of qualified individuals get turned away, and it ends up hurting the healthcare industry by producing lower quality docs than what could have potentially been produced

 

[Shredder]

I dunno about UT, but after looking at your MD Apps profile I have to say: Dartmouth as the back door to the Ivy League. Hilarious. You might be a bastard, but at least you're a funny one 😀

dartmouth med is ranked significantly lower than the rest of the ivy meds. it stands to reason that if there is any backdoor relatively speaking, its dartmouth.

edit: actually brown as well but i didnt consider it for business reasons

 

[CTSballer11]

i know, but are there no schools with a different game, a game without the facades? i know there are other professional schools without it, such as law and business like i mentioned earlier. nowhere is the altruism factor as hiked up as in med schools. the more you factor in altruism in applicants, the more compromise you will have to make in potential skills as docs. you cant have your cake and eat it too, every admissions criterion comes at the expense of another. there are probably a lot of people who could have been/could be great docs who are turned away from medicine bc of all the BS. im bordering on that line.[/QUOTE

After looking at your numbers I think you have an excellent chance. I have not applied to medical school and I am surprised to see that altruism is thrown at you by adcoms. I guess these same adcoms cannot see through people who claim they go into medical school for altruistic reasons. (Dermatalogy is the most competetive specialty to match into). 😱

 

[Tigerstang]

let them go into social work. med school is for highly skilled people to save lives, burning desire or not. nobody needs a burning desire to get a job, they just need to get the job done and done well. thousands of qualified individuals get turned away, and it ends up hurting the healthcare industry by producing lower quality docs than what could have potentially been produced

Spend some time in a cancer ward. Your perspective will change.

Sick people, truly sick people, need a lot more than competent scientist. They need someone who can empathize with their pain, who can help them through the most difficult time in their lives. It takes more than test scores to do that, my friend.

Again, spend some time with terminally ill people. I used to think exactly like you, until I had that kind of experience.

 

[DrBowtie]

Shredder, I suggest you try to stay away from altruism if it isn't your deal. You know what you want and shouldn't compromise. Although others suggested "playing the game" if you can't play it perfect it will look phony.

Altruism - Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

Very few can claim this attribute. If you are pulling down a paycheck or fighting for higher physician compensation that will send your kids to college then you aren't altruistic. It is an unrealistic ideal that pre-meds think that they will attain with an MD degree.

As we all know as life progresses it gets more complex. A physician cannot simply be altruistic. I for one will never claim altruism but instead caring. I will care whether my pt is getting better or worse but I will equally care if my child is clothed and fed.

 

[Tigerstang]

dartmouth med is ranked significantly lower than the rest of the ivy meds. it stands to reason that if there is any backdoor relatively speaking, its dartmouth.

No no I got it...I just thought it was hilarious. Kudos.

 

[unfrozencaveman]

i know, but are there no schools with a different game, a game without the facades? i know there are other professional schools without it, such as law and business like i mentioned earlier. nowhere is the altruism factor as hiked up as in med schools. the more you factor in altruism in applicants, the more compromise you will have to make in potential skills as docs. you cant have your cake and eat it too, every admissions criterion comes at the expense of another. there are probably a lot of people who could have been/could be great docs who are turned away from medicine bc of all the BS. im bordering on that line.

You might be surprised with business school admissions. I worked for a firm that was an offshoot of Wharton- and did the hiring of MBA students from there, and there was a LOT of do-gooding on those resumes. Actually I feel like you have to do a lot less to get into med school than you have to do to get into b-school. You wouldnt have believed some of these guys.

 

[Tigerstang]

OK, and on the flip side, I have been the cancer patient with a nice, friendly, IDIOTIC rad. onc.!

I'm sorry to hear that. However, this has no bearing on the argument at hand. It's not a "one or the other." You're not either capable or personable. Medical Schools are looking for people who are BOTH. That's the point of looking for people who care about others.

 

[CTSballer11]

let them go into social work. med school is for highly skilled people to save lives, burning desire or not. nobody needs a burning desire to get a job, they just need to get the job done and done well. thousands of qualified individuals get turned away, and it ends up hurting the healthcare industry by producing lower quality docs than what could have potentially been produced

It would be great if everyone in medicine were compassionate, selfless, all around nice people. As you said medicine is for highly skilled people to save lives. If you needed an appendectomy done, you would want a surgeon that knows his anatomy like the back of his hand. If he is compassionate etc, that is a plus. I just don't think that medical schools should sacrifice talent for "nice people".

 

[Shredder]

Shredder, I suggest you try to stay away from altruism if it isn't your deal. You know what you want and shouldn't compromise. Although others suggested "playing the game" if you can't play it perfect it will look phony.

Altruism - Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

Very few can claim this attribute. If you are pulling down a paycheck or fighting for higher physician compensation that will send your kids to college then you aren't altruistic. It is an unrealistic ideal that pre-meds think that they will attain with an MD degree.

As we all know as life progresses it gets more complex. A physician cannot simply be altruistic. I for one will never claim altruism but instead caring. I will care whether my pt is getting better or worse but I will equally care if my child is clothed and fed.

i know but i cant avoid it when they throw it in my face in mandatory secondary essays. honestly the best i could muster was the SAT tutoring i did in high school as a paid job, and how it made me feel so good about helping (insincere) that i later helped a friend on the MCAT (hardly). i was willing to let the altruism issue rest for a while, but they find ways to force it out of you even if its not really there.

dermatology--oh, but havent you heard, people love prescribing proactiv to raise peoples self esteem! and they have to work only short hours and no weekends to read up on the literature!

poor dartmouth and brown dont get quite the ivy league respect and recognition as the others. but hey ivys ivy.

 

[Tigerstang]

It would be great if everyone in medicine were compassionate, selfless, all around nice people. As you said medicine is for highly skilled people to save lives. If you needed an appendectomy done, you would want a surgeon that knows his anatomy like the back of his hand. If he is compassionate etc, that is a plus. I just don't think that medical schools should sacrifice talent for "nice people".

Who said they are sacrificing talent? There are plenty of talented and compassionate folk. Those are the ones getting into med school - with the exception of those disingenous few who fake compassion; they're also getting in.

 

[DrBowtie]

i know but i cant avoid it when they throw it in my face in mandatory secondary essays. honestly the best i could muster was the SAT tutoring i did in high school as a paid job, and how it made me feel so good about helping (insincere) that i later helped a friend on the MCAT (hardly). i was willing to let the altruism issue rest for a while, but they find ways to force it out of you even if its not really there.

dermatology--oh, but havent you heard, people love prescribing proactiv to raise peoples self esteem! and they have to work only short hours and no weekends to read up on the literature!

poor dartmouth and brown dont get quite the ivy league respect and recognition as the others. but hey ivys ivy.

What is an example where you have to say you are altruistic? Name a time where you truly felt you helped someone? Hell that could be a gave a starving guy 5 bucks for a sandwich. That definitely helped him short term.

 

[Tigerstang]

I thought it was pretty relevant since you implied that the doctors that are compassionate are the more competent ones. Just saying I've had the opposite experience.

Sorry I did not mean to imply that. I am saying that more compassionate doctors are BETTER than those that are not, presuming equal competence. Basically, I am saying compassion is a necessary element to a physician, in certain fields (admittedly a pathologist or even a surgeon need not be that compassionate, as their patient contact is pretty minimal).

 

[Shredder]

You might be surprised with business school admissions. I worked for a firm that was an offshoot of Wharton- and did the hiring of MBA students from there, and there was a LOT of do-gooding on those resumes. Actually I feel like you have to do a lot less to get into med school than you have to do to get into b-school. You wouldnt have believed some of these guys.

interesting...i like hearing the perspectives of ppl who have firsthand experience rather than speculation. this is something ive wondered about b school and the b world actually. ive been under the impression that in the b world you are valued for being ruthless and merciless, with an eye only for increasing the bottom line. well, ill see what its really like eventually.

people who say that you should accept people who have both arent conceding that things dont work like that, everything comes at a cost. actually you could have both if there were a high enough supply of applicants with stellar grades and MCATs, but the bell curve shows that this is not the case.

 

[DrBowtie]

Sorry I did not mean to imply that. I am saying that more compassionate doctors are BETTER than those that are not, presuming equal competence. Basically, I am saying compassion is a necessary element to a physician, in certain fields (admittedly a pathologist or even a surgeon need not be that compassionate, as their patient contact is pretty minimal).

That is exactly the key. Knowing yourself well will undoubtably translate into a specialty that suits you. With that said there is a need for less compassionate "mechanics". Without them your biopsy or film wouldn't get read.

 

[Shredder]

Actually, I paid the taxes, and have for the past 10 years. Not everyone around here is 18.

And I have my own business, so I pay even MORE in taxes.

wow megboos an entrepreneur 😍 sorry to hear the govt steals all your money to give it away to others, find ways around it!

 

[TheMightyAngus]

I'm with you Shredder. As someone who has worked in humanitarian/peace corps type work, I have seen first hand this type of contrived altruism that masks political motivation and insincere interests. Selfish people are rife in politics, leadership positions, and lucrative fields---including medicine. It's the nature of these jobs that attract people with selfish goals, though the fields themselves serve others so selfish goals and the ability to affect change in communities coincide. I see numerous people in these positions and I myself wonder why I too can't aspire to be in their positions for their precise reasons--personal advancement, financial gain, and knowing my work impacts other people.

However, the strive towards humanism in medicine derives from the fact that medical school deans and other influential people are aware of its current state. In the age of managed care, litigation, and cost-reducing priorities the field of medicine wants to attract people that have old-fashioned commitments of public service. People don't respect doctors as much as they used to and the field of medicine has been changing toward the negative. Recruiting physicians that have altruistic intentions makes the future of medicine more appealing to the public. Med schools are trying to change the image of medicine and make it more favorable. In essence, med schools have their own selfish reasons for selecting who they select.

It's a superficial game that you have to play to fit in with the system. If you make yourself appear to be the kind of idealistic physician that the public wants to see, you'll be more likely to be successful. So no, there are no successful overtly selfish applicants, although probably the vast majority of applicants have selfish motivations.

 

[dilated]

Medical schools have a monopoly on becoming a physician. Thus, if they decide to set arbitrary (even ridiculous) requirements to entry, you have no choice but to follow them if you want to get in. It's like hospital volunteering - I got absolutely nothing out of it but had to keep doing it because it's one of those things that a lack of will kill your application. In fact, it actually took time away from my non-clinical volunteering that actually made a difference in some peoples lives.

I don't really blame them for picking altruistic students - if you're reading files and one guy rambles on and on about helping the poor and the other one is like jea cash money, it's natural to say "hey, no skin off my back either way, so I'll take the one that sounds like he'll be nicer". But from the applicant perspective it's pretty unfair - the popularity of derm is only one of many indicators that once reality hits in people start stampeding towards high pay and no call rather than laying hands on the sick for pennies.

The more adcoms bias in favor of altruism the more people will feign it. Welcome to reality. I honestly don't care if people feign their altruism because 99% of the time it seems it'll be gone by the end of residency anyway, so big whoop. Just more hoops to jump through...