Insincerity, selflessness, and apps

[Shredder]

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It wasn't so much the content of the lawsuit just that they were sued for following their principles. I was quoting you.

interesting. but where do you draw the line on following principles then. first the single lesbian mom, then the single mom, then the mom you think is unfit to be a mom, who knows. not that i care, just bringing it up.

 

[crazy_cavalier]

btw concerning selflessness and altruism--typically premeds write and talk about how much they enjoy doing their altruistic deeds, right? wouldnt it be more proper to talk about how much you hate it, but grit your teeth and labor your way through it anyway, for the good of your fellow man and no satisfaction of your own? now that would be something!

referral huh, good idea, then cant you refer your promiscuous patients all away?

haha that's definitely an interesting approach.

and as for referrals, well I suppose that's one way to handle the inability to rise above your own beliefs. the doctor who can't perform an abortion will refer away. but that's why I speak of this as a challenge, these preconceived beliefs and convictions can sometimes disservice the patient, and it's something I am working on to overcome. by no means does this require a liberal mind or abandoning my own conservative upbringing and values... I think what it means is practicing with some sense of moral responsibility, some insights into society, and placing the interests of the patients at the center of your decision-making process. so the doctor who turns the lesbian mother away, perhaps that doctor felt the mother was not making the request of sound mind, or that the patient did not foresee the complications of a single-mother household or lack of a father figure, etc.

anyway, in the future I do not intend to use referrals as a system to "get the easy way out" of the things that make me uncomfortable, rather I will seek to, well "open" myself up and simply not be judgmental... I can already feel myself become more understanding in this manner, but there are still some things that are hard for me accept, and well I'm working on it 😳

 

[majikbob]

Shredder,

(hey its late or really really early...so sorry if the type-o's are out in force)

After reading this long, and civilized post I want to congratulate you on your honesty and bluntness. It is refreshing to have someone call out the B.S. in the application process. Everyone that is going, or has gone through it, knows that the process is often redundant and "cheesy". Moreover, I think it is really kind of humorous to ask a 21-22? year old student about altruism, helping is fellow man, or even what kind of doctor they want to be.

I am 30 years old, have T.A.'ed undergraduate biology courses (i basically taught some of them) at a small private east coast school for 5 years. Before that I was an undergraduate at U of M. After graduate school, I started and ran my own biotech. I have seen and dealt first hand with premeds for a long time, and believe that there is a large chunk of them that feel the same way you do about the whole process. There is a strong vein of pride, ego, and often a good bit of immaturity in most of them. I'm not saying that pre meds are bad people, but I think a good amount of them could use a couple of years off before they start med school. Maybe schools should require a period of true volunteering before entrance to medical school, like the peace or americore.

Think about it, most med school applicants have been in school full time for the last what, 4 years U.G., 4 years H.S., 2 middle, and 6 grade...what is that 16 years. I think true altruism requires a degree of self sacrifice, and requires the person to KNOW, not as a concept, but in a up close and personal way what is they have given up to the greater good.

Most pre-meds, from my point of view, seem so focused on grades (learning would be the better word, but I think grades are too often the real pursuit) and preparing themselves for "the process" that I don't think most of them really have time to become self aware of their true motivations for becoming a doctor. Hence when these secondary essay questions come up they are stumped. A couple years doing something for other people might really give people time to think.

I just don't see kids coming form top universities with 4.0's, research experience, volunteering, publications... ya-da-ya-da-ya-da... knowing what is to have sacrificed. For all but the rare student, their whole life up to now has been about themselves. I mean isn't education at its core a selfish pursuit. And to think 4 hours a week of volunteering on a hospital ward, or helping a guy change a tire, or giving a homeless man 5 bucks is going to "balance" out the anchor of unacknowledged selfishness that most students carry, is well I guess obscene.

So it’s late and Saturday night, and I don't really know where I’m going with all this. I guess I think you don't sound like you really want to be a doctor, and what’s worse if you get in, I don't know if you are going to be happy with your career. Wow, and even worse, if you aren't 100% committed to helping people get better, to giving everything you have to them in what is often the most terrifying time of their lives, how can you expect to give your patients the care they deserve?

When my fiancé got sick sick, I got to see the difference between good (committed and extraordinarily compassionate) and the bad (uncommitted or uncaring) doctors. The good ones are the role models I try to live up too, the bad ones just make me sick to my stomach.

I'm not trying to get down on you, I respect your honesty, and you seem like a smart guy. But there is a whole world outside of medicine, are you really sure this is what you want to do?

bob

 

[mshheaddoc]

Hahahhahahaa. You think your taxes cover your individual reduction in tuition? Hahahaha. And it also covers your use of the police department, your reduced costs for power, water, sewage, trash pick up, all the airport security, border security (the OP is from Texas, after all), and every other governmental perk you enjoy. Right.

Not to mention your parents paid the taxes, not YOU.

Just to clarify ... some of us are older on here and pay taxes 😛 And you pay taxes every time you buy something with sales tax or other hidden taxes so I think you need ot think about that.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I like where this discussion is going. I too like to play the devil's advocate....a few questions you can ask yourself

1). Would you like a surgeon to operate on your small intestine/colon (since you are all full of **** 🙂) who can tell the difference between the end of your jejunum and beginning of your ileum but could care less about you....OR...would you like a surgeon to operate on you who is really nice and sympathizes with you about that time when the mean boss stole your stapler but cant tell the difference between your artery and vein??

2). Do you think that all medical schools in the past wanted to know about pre-med's altruistic tendencies?? Or how smart and dedicated they were to learning medicine??

3). Do you think that you arent a true doctor unless you have compassion??

Basically, i'd always pick a crass, mean, hard-ass doctor who knew what the hell he or she was doing over someone who doesn't. Kind of like whether you want the attending or the first-year resident deliver your first child. What i'm trying to get at is that I dont think compassion/altrusim and medicine are mutualistic. Its good that more altruism and compassion has pervaded into medicine, but it shouldn't be a requirement for admission.

On a side note, BrettBachelor must be from the South....everything here is a Coke. And what with blaming the liberals for this?? pshhhh.

I don't think your question#1 is relevant because you are simplifying that down WAY too much. They aren't a surgeon if they can't tell 😉 And as for resident vs. attending question - sorry bud, if you're pregnant, you get the doctor there. Yes teh attending will be around but remember you're going to be a resident one day. You're thinking will change after 4 years of preparation. Hell I know a med student that helped deliver the other day. Said it was the best experience he had in med school so far.

My overall comments will come shortly I'm still reading through this thread.

 

[mshheaddoc]

First off Shredder, its interesting to see your perspective. As we all may not agree with your take, your questions provoke us in order to analyze ourselves as well. You have a decent application over all. But I question your commitment to med just like majikbob. I was reading through your thread and part of me felt that you came off just as naive in some circumstances, which didn't sound right to me because your posts often speak volumes of intellect. Although one can be an intellect but lack life experience (which was reflect in the naive nature).

ive been under the impression that in the b world you are valued for being ruthless and merciless, with an eye only for increasing the bottom line. well, ill see what its really like eventually.

First off, you need business experience because your "trump world" is not the business world. I've been in the business world for almost 10 years now. I've worked with large and small companies. I've given loans to start up companies and also seen some of those companies go belly up.

Business is not cutthroat. You're talking about IB or the "trumps" of the world. Yes this is stupid, but its like of like that movie "2 weeks notice". Hugh Grant Business man extraordinaire, yet lacks compassion. He comes to realize (albeit due to love) that compassion and people do matter. This is how I feel you are. You go through the motions to accomplish your goal and I'm sure you'd make a great doctor. Yet, to truly understand your meaning of this life I feel that you look to analyze everything from a logical/scientific standpoint. Like in your volunteering thread. There are some of us who try to give back as things that were for you. Maybe it follows the golden rule like or a Christian life which I try to lead (and I’m not really religious). But now I'm getting off topic. On to the next comment ...

see the thing about that is that a patient is a customer--if you treat them well, you get better business= more money. treat them crappy and you get no business. therefore the smart and selfish storeowner will be friendly, and the analogous doc will do solid work.

burning mr smith: im not evil. its not a case of goodness buried beneath an evil coat that im going to shed eventually. by pursuing what i want, others will benefit peripherally whether i care about them or not, such as bill gates and Windows. personally i want a billion dollars. now if i do that by revamping healthcare in some fashion (i wish i knew), so much the better for everyone, right?

one of the biggest flaws with most altruism is that you subsidize laziness. do you want to be a part of that? i dont give money to thirsty friends, i lend it. a friend who keeps leaching in this manner is a friend no more. i dont give money to homeless bums who pester me for it; its bad for the economy, since theyre better off finding meaningful work.

i wouldnt have broached this subject at all if only med schools would also let it rest instead of forcing it down my throat in secondaries, and probably interviews as well. altruism has no bearing on medicine.

The fact that you "lend" money expecting it to be returned and how bums are bad for the economy just reflects that you don't understand how this world truly works OUTSIDE of your economics equations (also makes me glad not to be your friend). To state that altruism subs laziness just baffles me. I understand your vantage point, but I think you are looking at it from a narrow viewpoint. Yes there are lazy people. There will always be the 'bums', but to state that "none" of them deserve a chance I feel is a little harsh. This comes back to the whole "compassion" thing that "altruistic" behavior is based on.

There was a doctor I met recently with a dying relative as she was in the SCCU. He was her cardiovascular thoracic team member (head) and he stopped by every day to see her even if he wasn't on the floors. Whenever there was an issue, he was there to take care of it. He apologized for the incompetancies of the other doctors and I felt with all the issues we were going through that he should be commended as a physician. I never got the chance to tell him that but he will have left an imprint. Now, do you think he was altruistic? Or maybe that was just his "job" to bring comfort to the family and the patient. Part of this job in medicine is bedside manner dealing with patients AND their families. If you get a rep of being brash and uncompassionate with families, obviously you will have a hard time moving up. Additionally, its a leadership quality as well. Once I feel actually has helped me success in the business world with rapid advancement.

Definition of altruistic:motivated by an interest in improving the condition of others, selfless actions on behalf of some greater good. taken from here

I like this definition ... and that leads me to question, why do YOU want to do medicine? What is your purpose?

indeed, but for a med school apps process that is designed for cookie cutter premeds, its not always easy to fit in things like that. especially when questions ask me point blank to define altruism and cite examples. if i stray too far from the cookie cutter ideal, its a big risk, and inevitably people cry to forget med and just go biz, a la an md/phd candidate who talks too much science. ill definitely fill you in come next year when you apply. ha, presuming things go ok for me

plus you always have to remember the composition and mindset of the adcoms. what makes perfect sense to you and me may not be taken so favorably to them, no matter how logical. people are people.

Hence why you get interviews to explain yourself. I agree though if you stray too far, you are in uncharted territories and are opening yourself up to a huge risk.

my bros a resident, which is where i got most of my exposure to med. there is speculation that having docs in the family counts against you in apps bc you might be just following footsteps. if that speculation is true...man thats pretty bogus. family docs are invaluable.

Never heard the family thing because alot of times that is great exposure in my opinion. Sometimes familys with generations of doctors often are questioned of this, but if you show the commitment (which you have) you are fine.

oh, that's cool. anyway you have the most essential thing: clinical contact. all the volunteering in the world doesn't matter if you don't have clinical contact. it's obvious you know what you're getting yourself into by choosing medicine, and personally, I think your financial insights are refreshing and necessary to the security of medicine in the near future. we need physician leaders who have financial savvy to somehow derail us from the trajectory of our failing system and the potential catastrophe(s) that awaits in the next decade or so...

ultimately I agree the premed trend is disturbing and a little disappointing. it's funny premeds can take something like volunteering and well, premedify it. at my school, it's even gotten to the point where volunteering is competitive and it may not be possible to get a position through our volunteering organization! can you imagine that? messed up.

but anyhow, again you seem really solid. of course the best advice that could be given to you would be to be cautious with how you present yourself... even at the secondary stage. I can see your position and if I were in it personally I would play my cards in such a way as to cover all the bases, but at the same time be honest. I'll admit it's a tough position... anyway, like someone else said here earlier, play the game and good luck! 🙂

I agree with this post. You do have a solid app, and yes, you have to play the game.

I know this became a long and winding post. I hope its semi-intelligible as I've had a rough week and minimal sleep recently. But one of the things I've noticed about your posting style is that you always take the hardball approach with things. I appreciate your conservative vantage points as well but I think you need to take a step "back" into reality in order to really analyze what you would like to do with medicine and business. Both means doesn't make a greater end.

The internet really stinks for only seeing one dimension of someone and I'm sure you are a multi-dimensioned person, but I suppose that we can't always see that. I really guess I just take you as a well to do person that never had tradegy in your life, or either you've had so much you are just callious at the world. Again, that is just from reading and following your posts over the past few months. Yes medicine and doctors are portrayed to be unemotional, but I feel from my vast experience that the truth is far from that.
The traditional pre-med will ultimately have some sort of altruistic behaviors by nature although it may not be ultimately reflected on paper. Why an adcom might ask this of an applicant? Honestly I think it’s a great vantage point to email a school (which you aren’t applying to) and ask them this question. Or if anyone who reads this (which I know not many med students actually read this forum due to its, uh, tedious number of threads. (yeah that’s it 😉 ) could bring another viewpoint, it would be refreshing of actually finding out the answer of “WHY” this is required.

S – I’m just playing devils advocate and no offense is meant but I’m just telling you how it comes across to me. Your being honest, and so am I.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

btw concerning selflessness and altruism--typically premeds write and talk about how much they enjoy doing their altruistic deeds, right? wouldnt it be more proper to talk about how much you hate it, but grit your teeth and labor your way through it anyway, for the good of your fellow man and no satisfaction of your own? now that would be something!

referral huh, good idea, then cant you refer your promiscuous patients all away?

but i honestly don't hate it...i love it or i'd never put myself thru it even to get into med school

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

i know, but are there no schools with a different game, a game without the facades? i know there are other professional schools without it, such as law and business like i mentioned earlier. nowhere is the altruism factor as hiked up as in med schools. the more you factor in altruism in applicants, the more compromise you will have to make in potential skills as docs. you cant have your cake and eat it too, every admissions criterion comes at the expense of another. there are probably a lot of people who could have been/could be great docs who are turned away from medicine bc of all the BS. im bordering on that line.

STOP CALLING ALTURISM BS!!! It’s not, I’m sorry. Our health system is over burdened, and as a doctor you will have to sacrifice your SELF for others at some point. Even as a resident, you will be working 80 hours a week for $30- 40,000! If you want to be Donald Trump GET OUT OF MEDICINE. I don’t understand your selfish reasons at all. Where do you think being a physician will take you? I understand that we are all selfish and everyone has a personal interest in the field, but come on, this is ridiculous! Some of the biggest problems facing medicine today are noncompliance and the existence of underserved populations. You need understanding doctors who have enough ability and interest in their patient’s health to impress upon them the importance of completing treatment correctly. If a patient thinks you don’t care about them, they aren’t going to listen to you and you will be ineffective as a clinician.
Also, many of you claim that doctors “realize” later in life that altruism is BS. This is not necessarily true. Yes med school changes you and after residency you feel like life has beaten you down. After a while of practicing, doctors tend to see the point of altruism. Most physicians practice for 25-40 (maybe more) years and with experience comes MATURITY. I just got back from an internship at Case, and all of the doctors I shadowed and met REGULARLY did work for FREE because there were so many people who could not afford health care. The doctor to patient ratio in America is only getting worse; we will all be faced with the prospect of helping people even for reduced (or no) pay. Limited resources are going to call for us to make these choices—Is that person’s life worth my loss of (X)? The reason why the medical profession seeks compassionate people is because COMPASSION IS NECESSARY! Medicine IS NOT the same as Law or Business. If you are laboring under this delusion, then you ARE just another naïve pre-med.

 

[mshheaddoc]

i know, but are there no schools with a different game, a game without the facades? i know there are other professional schools without it, such as law and business like i mentioned earlier. nowhere is the altruism factor as hiked up as in med schools. the more you factor in altruism in applicants, the more compromise you will have to make in potential skills as docs. you cant have your cake and eat it too, every admissions criterion comes at the expense of another. there are probably a lot of people who could have been/could be great docs who are turned away from medicine bc of all the BS. im bordering on that line.

also while reading ladyj's post, also I want to warn you of assumptions in the admissions process. In a society where compassion and altruism is embraced, if you truly don't care about the patients, go for hard science and work in a lab.

 

[dopaminophile]

I'll admit that I've only read the first and last pages of this thread, so this may have already been covered. If you're not interested in the altruistic, humanitarian, benevolent, etc aspect of the practice of medicine, what are your motivations? All other motivations that I've heard out there from money to sex appeal to science and prestige can be found elsewhere, with the reward coming sooner and stronger and the process much less difficult. The thing that sets medicine apart and ultimately draws the best doctors is the notion of caring for patients when they're down and out--a very fundamentally compassionate act.

Regardless of original motivations, MDs and DOs rarely become uber-rich, MDs and DOs rarely become science super-stars, and MDs and DOs rarely get famous or powerful. In reality, medical doctors live in the upper echelons of the faceless middle-class. The thing that keeps doctors going throughout the decades of their careers is their love of the humanitarian aspect of medicine. If you don't love that now, what is going to drive you then? What is it about medicine that drives you now?

 

[dopaminophile]

Just as a general disclaimer, I'm not really a fan of my previous post. It's a lot more wishy-washy than I like, but the point still stands--medicine without compassion would lose all of its flavor!

 

[Centinel]

Edit: Moved all to a new thread entitled - Sorry Shredder - you ARE altruistic.

 

[tigress]

Yeah, like dopaminophile above me, I've not read all the pages of this thread. I don't have the patience right now. But I have to say that, *gasp*, to a certain degree I agree with Shredder. I think he takes it too far, but some of his points really hit home. I do find myself having to mention my altruistic goals in my application, just to sound attractive. I definitely love the idea of helping people, but as far as my primary motivation to enter medicine, that would have to be an intellectual love for the field. I just think medicine is cool, both the science and theory as well as the actual physical tasks involved. And I love blood and guts 😛

I won't really use the world "altruism", because I'm not sure if such a thing truly exists. But certainly doctors must have compassion. And certainly I care very much about healthcare, and I'm looking forward to helping people in difficult situations. But it is true that the admissions process really does emphasize this aspect too much for some people. Compassion and wanting to help people don't have to be our primary reasons for entering medicine. And to a certain degree we don't have to pretend that they are, but we do feel pushed to represent these motivations as a bit more important to us than they are.

And while writing this, it occured to me that to a certain degree, feeling "altruistic" by caring for patients is slightly demeaning to the patients. Doctors provide a service, they care for and treat people who are ill, but for most people it's not done completely out of the goodness of their hearts, nor do the patients expect that it is. And this caregiver roll is, to a certain degree, putting the patients in the place of people simply begging or pleading for our help. As if we are being so kind as to take care of these poor people. But really a patient is a person with plenty to offer. And in modern healthcare, they also have a say in their treatment.

I'm not sure if any of the above makes sense; I'm sort of thinking "out loud" here. I saw that Shredder correlated this altruistic streak in medicine with liberalism, which I find absurd. I'm about as liberal as you get. I care about healthcare on a national level (I support groups that promote the creation of a nationalized health program, for example), I care about public health. But on a personal level, my motivations for going into medicine are not primarily "wanting to help people", or my compassionate nature. And while I am not pretending to adcoms that these are my primary motivations, I do have to play them up to a certain extent to seem like a good applicant.

That said, as I spend more time with patients (with my current job, almost every day), I find myself more interested in the personal, compassionate aspects of medicine. So I started from the intellectual part, but now the individual people's stories and lives are becoming more important to me, and I do find myself feeling very strongly that I want to do anything I can to help them. I'll see how my feelings change over the course of my medical education. I suspect I will go back and forth on this issue.

 

[wowzer]

also read the first and last threads...i think that shredder, like many of us during this long process, are just frustrated by the amount of time and money we have to put in our applications. It is agonizing to put the values taht we truly encompass into a few lines in secondary essays, and we are reducing ourselves (and furthermore into sentences with "artificial creativity" so that we wound like we know more than basic English) when asnwering these questions with a word/character limit. From the posts, I don't think you can necessarily tell if the OP (or any of us) is being altrusitic or selfish for the money during the application process, given the stress we feel.

I think there are too many posts on this thread asking for which is more important than the other, altruism or smarts? As for medicine, it's obvious medicine is looking for people with the smarts AND compassion, not one or the other. To answer the question, "Would you rather have a doctor/surgeon who ...", I'd pick NEITHER..I'd pick the doctor who knows how to conduct and deal with situations in the surgery - characteristics that ALL of us want to posess as doctors in the furue - and can take the extra time to explain to me how my life will be impacted and what can be the complications. So, the issue of which one is more important should not be brought up.

However, if anyone taht is applying is readlly doing medicine for the wrong reasons (we all know what they are), then it is not only selfish but STUPID as you have spent the last several years "doing what you don't want to do." I know a person (his parents own the largest medical practice in Southern Maryland) who is the biggest s**t head and everyone wnats to beat the crap out of him. why? no compassion , only talks about wanting to go to Harvard, get money, get a hot Indian wife, and rise in his family. He epitmozies the selfish brat seeking a career in meidcine that all of us on this thread are scared of. My point here is taht if you possess the wrong qualities for a career, it shines though early. If people thingk that you are selfish, an a**, or any of the other vies, then that should tell you early on what you are lacking and if medicine is really suitable for you.

My comments are jsut generalziations, they relate to all of us as much as Shredder. In reality, this dillemma does indeed face students applying straight out of undergrad, such as myself. We are frustrated, we have been working hard at one thing and secondaries are our last chance to make an impression. However, we should be able to tell if we have the wrong qualities by interacting with people around us.

 

[dopaminophile]

Aren't those "personal, compassionate aspects of medicine" really what sets the practice of medicine apart from other science and business professions? I agree that the phrasology being used in this thread is a little rediculous. The idea of a healer on a pedestal bestowing the gift of health upon the weak and helpless patient is absurd. But if you don't like giving someone a hand when they're down and out, I just don't understand why one doesn't go into another field that has all of the other good benefits.

 

[tigress]

Aren't those "personal, compassionate aspects of medicine" really what sets the practice of medicine apart from other science and business professions? I agree that the phrasology being used in this thread is a little rediculous. The idea of a healer on a pedestal bestowing the gift of health upon the weak and helpless patient is absurd. But if you don't like giving someone a hand when they're down and out, I just don't understand why one doesn't go into another field that has all of the other good benefits.

👍 yeah, this is what I was trying to say... 🙂

 

[silas2642]

its one thing to write in your ps that you're going into medicine not so much to help people but because you like the science and want to pursue academia (i dont know if you do, just an example) and be honest about your activities, but its another to say crap just for the sake of saying crap. i think adcoms can see thru pre-med crap. as long as you have activities outside of school you should be ok.

why do you want to be a doctor? if its for money, honey there are plenty of other jobs that will earn you so much more!!! and less painfully too!!!! if its to be a top scientist, i think the top schools will want a person who has done reseach and show that they do want to pursue it more. one interviewer told me that med schools do sacrifice social skills in an applicant for someone who will contribute to science in research.

but honestly, if you work with people everyday and see humans suffer through illness and are not moved or only see them as a case, then dear, i dont want you as my doctor! have you ever sat in an office with an illness adn the doctor treated you like you were just another payday? it doesnt feel very good.

I agree.... Shredder, I don't think you should go into medicine... expect rejections from a lot of schools because if you are pulling this altruism thing out of your butt, adcoms are going to see right through it. I don't think you're going to be very good with patients somehow.

 

[silas2642]

Originally Posted by Shredder
i will probably engage in altruism eventually, just like bill gates and donald trump do. but i dont think there should be any expectation for me or anyone to do so. i will be entitled to every penny i earn, and there is no obligation to give back anything. any giving back is purely out of the goodness of one's heart

You're a jerk. If I was a patient, and I knew who you were, I'd run from you as fast as I possibly could. In medicine there is an obligation to give everything, because that is the nature of the job-- patients give you their hopes, trust, and respect during periods of their greatest vulnerability and people like you don't even care.

Medicine isn't about treating a disease only; it's about treating an entire person. And you're not entitled to anything-- not a patient's trust, respect, and certainly not an acceptance letter from a medical school although you will probably get one.

 

[tigress]

silas, "in medicine there is an obligation to give everything"? Show me where it says I signed up for that. I think many people would disagree.

People, try to see past Shredder's cultivated persona and machismo, and he makes some good points. Okay, in many ways he's full of it, but why are so many people reacting to him by suggesting that he will be a horrible doctor, that he shouldn't get into med school, etc? I think most of the people who go on and on about altruism are pretty full of themselves, as much so as Shredder. If you would stop being so self-righteous for a second, you would realize that people have lots of different motivations for doing things, and that you'll probably never meet a selfless, purely altruistic person in your entire life.

 

[surgeonguy22]

Consider Atlas Shrugged if you've read it. I'm really turned off by all the selflessness and altruism I have to fake during my med school apps. I hate being insincere and hypocritical. I don't have a bit of altruism on my app, and it will hurt me. I found this spiel on amazon.com, and it rings so true:
Is there any way to reconcile my insincerity and be successful in getting into good schools? All the helping people and serving humanity is BS from brainwashing, gatekeeping adcoms. Are there ever successful, overtly selfish applicants?

Anybody else out there share these feelings? I know there are people, but is anyone disturbed by having to betray principles in order to get into a choice school?

Step 1: Pretend you are empathetic/caring.
Step 2: Ask yourself, what would a woman answer to this question?
Step 3: Write the application LIKE YOU ARE A WOMAN.
Step 4: Get into medical school.
Step 5: Laugh at everyone because now you are guaranteed to make $500,000/yr
Step 6: Come golfing with me, because I plan to go to medical school at Baylor 😛

 

[Shredder]

I agree.... Shredder, I don't think you should go into medicine... expect rejections from a lot of schools because if you are pulling this altruism thing out of your butt, adcoms are going to see right through it. I don't think you're going to be very good with patients somehow.

ill see how things go this app cycle and decide what to do from there. i figure if i end up achieving less than what i feel is right, then maybe i really dont belong in med. but i think i do as of now, and im filling out my apps as sincerely as possible so that i dont end up somewhere i dont belong. i never intended to pull altruism out of my rear until the secondaries started forcing me to. somehow i think a diatribe against altruism or a blank essay wouldnt quite get me interviews.

ms head doc thanks for the input, i always like hearing older and wiser biz perspectives. i dont necessarily have 100% conviction in everything i say, oftentimes i just put thoughts out there for discussion and to challenge conventional thinking. its more fun and stimulating than everybody nodding in agreement. so nobody believes in scared straight docs, and that in a certain light compassion could cause problems?

+to everyone, there are docs here and there on the forbes wealthiest people lists. meaning hundreds of millions or even into the billions of net worth. but they dont get it by treating a bunch of patients, you have to delve into biz to get there. bill frists brother is one med tycoon. oh and about the liberal thing, again i find ways to blame them for everything, but thats more of a lounge issue.

somebody brought up a really good point: isnt it demeaning as a patient to think that a doc is showing altruistic behavior toward you? dont you want to get what you pay for, or give what you are paid for, with no favors being done on either side? personally id rather make deals than seek charity and feel indebtedness.

 

[Shredder]

Step 1: Pretend you are empathetic/caring.
Step 2: Ask yourself, what would a woman answer to this question?
Step 3: Write the application LIKE YOU ARE A WOMAN.
Step 4: Get into medical school.
Step 5: Laugh at everyone because now you are guaranteed to make $500,000/yr
Step 6: Come golfing with me, because I plan to go to medical school at Baylor 😛

hahaah 👍 well said. you know if med school admissions were always like this, i wouldnt have any beef. but i dont think that they have always been like this. its the trend that gets to me. when and why did it begin? where is it headed? is it indicative of some greater trend in society? the country wasnt founded on altruistic principles, it was founded on hardcore capitalism, where self interest and greed drove the country to the greatness it is now sitting on. the wealthiest folks built the country--rockefeller, carnegie, vanderbilt, ford. but now people look at money and cry evil, whats happening? why does medicine of all professions have to fall victim to this line of thinking?

i didnt start this thread as a what are my chances type of thread. i dont like those. i guess i started it as a what the hell is going on type of thread, profound like.

 

[surgeonguy22]

hahaah 👍 well said. you know if med school admissions were always like this, i wouldnt have any beef. but i dont think that they have always been like this. its the trend that gets to me. when and why did it begin? where is it headed? is it indicative of some greater trend in society? the country wasnt founded on altruistic principles, it was founded on hardcore capitalism, where self interest and greed drove the country to the greatness it is now sitting on. the wealthiest folks built the country--rockefeller, carnegie, vanderbilt, ford. but now people look at money and cry evil, whats happening? why does medicine of all professions have to fall victim to this line of thinking?

i didnt start this thread as a what are my chances type of thread. i dont like those. i guess i started it as a what the hell is going on type of thread, profound like.

You see Shredder the truth of it is this:

Feminism is controlling America. You think you have it bad? You're in Texas. Imagine how bad it would be if you lived in San Francisco or Boston.....
Ever since the 1970's, women have constantly pushed for more and more freedoms. And consequently, the divorce rate has sky rocketed (now up to 53%) and Northern women have less and less children.

In Texas, however, it is common to see a woman with 3-4 children, while up North it is virtually impossible.

My point is that socialism/feminism has destroyed pretty much all professions that used to be 'male'

You know bro, my father who is a family physician said it to me best last year, and I'll never forget what he said. "On average, a male family physician works as hard as two females. How do you think I feel when I have to pull the slack of two women more concerned about getting their nails done than about doing their job? And I guarantee you, these are the same women who were altruitic and caring on their applications'

Think about that....

And yes I agree with you 100%. America was founded on capitalism, and socially liberal Supreme Court decisions have turned the US into a country of *******. Luckily Bush gets to appoint 3 new members, and Roberts was a good start.

 

[tigress]

somebody brought up a really good point: isnt it demeaning as a patient to think that a doc is showing altruistic behavior toward you? dont you want to get what you pay for, or give what you are paid for, with no favors being done on either side? personally id rather make deals than seek charity and feel indebtedness.

See, I think this has a very real element of truth. Maybe people want to feel like saviors or saints, but it creates this attitude of self-righteousness over patients. Somebody goes to a doctor because they need a person with the education and expertise to figure out how best to treat them, and in that regard the doctor is simply the expert, like a mechanic or electrician. Yes, there is more need for compassion in the role of a physician, but it can be taken too far, and then the doctor begins to feel superior, in a way, to the patients they are treating.

 

[tigress]

You see Shredder the truth of it is this:

Feminism is controlling America. You think you have it bad? You're in Texas. Imagine how bad it would be if you lived in San Francisco or Boston.....
Ever since the 1970's, women have constantly pushed for more and more freedoms. And consequently, the divorce rate has sky rocketed (now up to 53%) and Northern women have less and less children.

In Texas, however, it is common to see a woman with 3-4 children, while up North it is virtually impossible.

My point is that socialism/feminism has destroyed pretty much all professions that used to be 'male'

You know bro, my father who is a family physician said it to me best last year, and I'll never forget what he said. "On average, a male family physician works as hard as two females. How do you think I feel when I have to pull the slack of two women more concerned about getting their nails done than about doing their job? And I guarantee you, these are the same women who were altruitic and caring on their applications'

Think about that....

And yes I agree with you 100%. America was founded on capitalism, and socially liberal Supreme Court decisions have turned the US into a country of *******. Luckily Bush gets to appoint 3 new members, and Roberts was a good start.

ah, the good old days...when those darn women, and those African American fellers, knew their places! 🙄

(btw, you DO know that the divorce rate is highest in red states, right? And the population of the US isn't exactly in any danger of shrinking. lol)

edit: I went to do some research about divorce rates. I'm right about the highest rates being in red states, but I think most of us knew that. What I did find is that everywhere I look, divorce rates have actually gone DOWN in recent years. I've also seen it argued that blue states have lower divorce rates because they have lower marriage rates, so I looked into that. To a certain degree this may be true, but I don't know how strong the correlation is. For example, Hawaii has one of the lowest divorce rates and also one of the highest marriage rates. And to a certain degree the birth rate is higher in red states, but it's certainly not clear-cut. For example, the birth rate in the state I grew up in, South Carolina (definitely a red state!!), is 13.4 (births per 1,000 people). The birth rate in New York is 13.2, and in New Jersey it's 13.5.

Just some interesting data to throw out there 🙂

 

[crazy_cavalier]

See, I think this has a very real element of truth. Maybe people want to feel like saviors or saints, but it creates this attitude of self-righteousness over patients. Somebody goes to a doctor because they need a person with the education and expertise to figure out how best to treat them, and in that regard the doctor is simply the expert, like a mechanic or electrician. Yes, there is more need for compassion in the role of a physician, but it can be taken too far, and then the doctor begins to feel superior, in a way, to the patients they are treating.

there is also the element of paternism. sometimes the doctor will not do what the patient wants to be done, i.e. removing life support. it is often a difficult task to determine what truly is the best course of action and sometimes the patient's voice gets left out of this decision 🙁

 

[Shredder]

Hakashi! I mean Masamune! Ummmm... Surgeonguy! Is that you?

good call, i hadnt thought of that. who knows

 

[Tigerstang]

however i dont think med schools take too kindly to premeds proclaiming from the get go that theyre going into rads or path. you know how it is with 90% of premeds claiming to want rural or inner city FP or peds.

about the altruism bit--personally i dont give money to bums. i would only give it if they promised a return on my investment. i have worked hard for money (or taken loans) and so should they. i think subsidizing their lifestyles is bad for them. so in many regards im fundamentally opposed to most instances of supposed altruism. now how well would that go over with adcoms?

As for your first point, I dunno about that. Saying you want to go into rads or path is not a kiss of death. After all, pathologists and radiologists are on admissions committees, too. And I don't think you need to BS to the point of saying you want to work in an inner city doing family practice. I certainly don't intend to, so I have no plans on presenting myself as such.

As for your second point - I agree. But that doesn't make you not altruistic. Altruism is more than giving money to a beggar. It's helping someone and expecting nothing in return. You seem to be overly obsessed with financial aspects of altruism. Those aren't the only ways.

 

[oompa loompa]

silas, "in medicine there is an obligation to give everything"? Show me where it says I signed up for that. I think many people would disagree.

People, try to see past Shredder's cultivated persona and machismo, and he makes some good points. Okay, in many ways he's full of it, but why are so many people reacting to him by suggesting that he will be a horrible doctor, that he shouldn't get into med school, etc? I think most of the people who go on and on about altruism are pretty full of themselves, as much so as Shredder. If you would stop being so self-righteous for a second, you would realize that people have lots of different motivations for doing things, and that you'll probably never meet a selfless, purely altruistic person in your entire life.

why are y'all giving shredder and this stupid thread this much attention? He's not dumb, and I doubt he has enough integrity to really take a hardball stance on applications and tell med school ADCOMS what he really thinks about their altruism questions. He's probably doing some soul searching, finding some nugget of a good deed he did way back, and making it into a sweet little essay JUST LIKE MOST OF US are doing.
Please. Shredder is hardly raising points that we haven't ALL thought about.

As if there haven't been dozens of threads about motivations for going into med school, etc. already. The specific situation might be diff, but the arguments are same old.

Shredder, all we've really learned from these threads is that you're an attention *****. GET OVER YOURSELF.

 

[Tigerstang]

Just to clarify ... some of us are older on here and pay taxes 😛

Unless you enrolled in college after declaring financial independence from your parents, then you didn't pay for the taxes that subsidized your state school.

 

[Tigerstang]

Regardless of original motivations, MDs and DOs rarely become uber-rich, MDs and DOs rarely become science super-stars, and MDs and DOs rarely get famous or powerful. In reality, medical doctors live in the upper echelons of the faceless middle-class. The thing that keeps doctors going throughout the decades of their careers is their love of the humanitarian aspect of medicine. If you don't love that now, what is going to drive you then? What is it about medicine that drives you now?

Boom. There it is.

 

[Tigerstang]

Step 1: Pretend you are empathetic/caring.
Step 2: Ask yourself, what would a woman answer to this question?
Step 3: Write the application LIKE YOU ARE A WOMAN.
Step 4: Get into medical school.
Step 5: Laugh at everyone because now you are guaranteed to make $500,000/yr
Step 6: Come golfing with me, because I plan to go to medical school at Baylor 😛

Did I just wake up in the 15th century? Holy ****ing ****.

 

[tigress]

Regardless of original motivations, MDs and DOs rarely become uber-rich, MDs and DOs rarely become science super-stars, and MDs and DOs rarely get famous or powerful. In reality, medical doctors live in the upper echelons of the faceless middle-class. The thing that keeps doctors going throughout the decades of their careers is their love of the humanitarian aspect of medicine. If you don't love that now, what is going to drive you then? What is it about medicine that drives you now?

or their love of the other aspects of medicine (job security, adequate money, interesting field, diseases can be really amazing, etc.)...

 

[Tigerstang]

+to everyone, there are docs here and there on the forbes wealthiest people lists. meaning hundreds of millions or even into the billions of net worth. but they dont get it by treating a bunch of patients, you have to delve into biz to get there. bill frists brother is one med tycoon. oh and about the liberal thing, again i find ways to blame them for everything, but thats more of a lounge issue.

Frist didn't make his own cash; the millions are thanks to his pappy, who started HCA. Don't get me wrong, he made a pretty penny as a heart surgeon over at Vandy, but the real wealth was inherited.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Unless you enrolled in college after declaring financial independence from your parents, then you didn't pay for the taxes that subsidized your state school.

well i attended my state school for grad school while working. Additionally I pay taxes on most goods purchased in my state as well as property taxes. Also I worked all throughout college therefore my state taxes did go towards education in my home state as well.

 

[Tigerstang]

You see Shredder the truth of it is this:

Feminism is controlling America. You think you have it bad? You're in Texas. Imagine how bad it would be if you lived in San Francisco or Boston.....
Ever since the 1970's, women have constantly pushed for more and more freedoms. And consequently, the divorce rate has sky rocketed (now up to 53%) and Northern women have less and less children.

In Texas, however, it is common to see a woman with 3-4 children, while up North it is virtually impossible.

My point is that socialism/feminism has destroyed pretty much all professions that used to be 'male'

You know bro, my father who is a family physician said it to me best last year, and I'll never forget what he said. "On average, a male family physician works as hard as two females. How do you think I feel when I have to pull the slack of two women more concerned about getting their nails done than about doing their job? And I guarantee you, these are the same women who were altruitic and caring on their applications'

Think about that....

And yes I agree with you 100%. America was founded on capitalism, and socially liberal Supreme Court decisions have turned the US into a country of *******. Luckily Bush gets to appoint 3 new members, and Roberts was a good start.

I've got an SDN most likely...

Most likely to beat his wife...surgeonguy22.

Hey why don't we just outlaw women from becoming doctors? Oh and immigrants.

 

[LadyJubilee8_18]

Merrium-Webster definition of altruism:

Main Entry: al•tru•ism
Pronunciation: 'al-tru-"i-z&m
Etymology: French altruisme, from autrui other people, from Old French, oblique case form of autre other, from Latin alter
1 : unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others
2 : behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

Maybe the concept of “altruism” in the purest sense of the word is not possible, but I firmly believe that doctors have to have some concept of self sacrifice. Notice that there is no “condescension” clause in that definition. Just because you have a devotion to the welfare of others does not mean you ignore their wants/needs because you feel more “sanctified” than they are. In fact, doing this would be selfish. No one is suggesting that people who are prepared to dedicate money, effort, and at least ten years of their lives to becoming physicians should not have ANY selfish motivations. After all, it is YOUR life and YOUR career choice. I do think that doctors should have a healthy capacity for compassion and a sense of self sacrifice. Sometimes, you have to do things that aren’t in your own best interest in order to provide healthcare for others. This is not saying that those other people are needy/dependent recipients of your overwhelming benevolence, but that you should work to provide the best care possible even if you have to make personal sacrifices.
To those of you who agree with Shredder or his points, ask yourselves one question: Would you want Shredder as YOUR doctor? Would you trust him to care for your mother/sister/daughter if she was brought into the ER during his rotation? I know I would sure as hell hope one of those liberal/socialist/feminist was on duty 🙄

 

[dopaminophile]

or their love of the other aspects of medicine (job security, adequate money, interesting field, diseases can be really amazing, etc.)...

So go get a PhD if that's your primary motivation. The job security is better, the money is more than adequate, you can study a topic that intersts you much more thoroughly than if you're a practicing physician, you can study the diseases even more thoroughly, and you can do it all for more pay, fewer hours, and the chances of becoming uber-rich are greater than for a regular ol MD. The only thing that's missing is the patient contact--that aspect of an individual helping an individual out. That's the aspect that drives most people to become an MD. Like it or not, that's the altruism or compassion or whatever that the adcoms are looking for. And I feel that they're rightfully looking for it. My contention is that if you don't have that person-helping-person aspect, you'd probably be happier in a slightly different line of work. You don't have to be a bleeding heart type, but serving others ought to be one of your most fundamental motivations.

 

[dopaminophile]

I've got an SDN most likely...

Most likely to beat his wife...surgeonguy22.

Hey why don't we just outlaw women from becoming doctors? Oh and immigrants.

Ooh ooh! Lets get rid of everyone that's not 5'10" to 6'2" too. And brunettes. And brown eyes.

 

[Tigerstang]

Ooh ooh! Lets get rid of everyone that's not 5'10" to 6'2" too. And brunettes. And brown eyes.

And anyone not from the Northeast, or the Good Ole Boy South. Sorry Cali.

 

[CTSballer11]

You see Shredder the truth of it is this:

Feminism is controlling America. You think you have it bad? You're in Texas. Imagine how bad it would be if you lived in San Francisco or Boston.....
Ever since the 1970's, women have constantly pushed for more and more freedoms. And consequently, the divorce rate has sky rocketed (now up to 53%) and Northern women have less and less children.

In Texas, however, it is common to see a woman with 3-4 children, while up North it is virtually impossible.

My point is that socialism/feminism has destroyed pretty much all professions that used to be 'male'

You know bro, my father who is a family physician said it to me best last year, and I'll never forget what he said. "On average, a male family physician works as hard as two females. How do you think I feel when I have to pull the slack of two women more concerned about getting their nails done than about doing their job? And I guarantee you, these are the same women who were altruitic and caring on their applications'

Think about that....

And yes I agree with you 100%. America was founded on capitalism, and socially liberal Supreme Court decisions have turned the US into a country of *******. Luckily Bush gets to appoint 3 new members, and Roberts was a good start.

You are a supreme doushbag.

 

[SpyPuts]

somebody brought up a really good point: isnt it demeaning as a patient to think that a doc is showing altruistic behavior toward you? dont you want to get what you pay for, or give what you are paid for, with no favors being done on either side? personally id rather make deals than seek charity and feel indebtedness.

I understand where you're coming from on the "describe altruism in a 500 word essay" topic, but I can't imagine that you actually believe the above statement. You're clearly aiming to attend a medical/business school with a reputation for excellent academics, but do you know what the patient base at academic hospitals looks like? (hint: not upper-middle class and certainly not in any position to feel 'demeaned' at the receipt of subsidized medical treatment.)

Schools with top reputations are interested in producing academic physicians (read: few of them are at the top of any wealthiest-people lists). An applicant who is honest about their desire to take a big-name degree & residency before hopping straight into private practice will not fare well in the admissions process at any school. This doesn't mean that a stated interest in the business side of medicine is a kiss of death. There are plenty of roles for physicians with business experience in government, academic, and private settings, but I wouldn't mention that you're mainly interested in maximizing your own profit. Flaunting an attitude like that in front of the people who matter (adcoms) would be evidence of a worse naivete than the "I only want to help people" brand.

To those who are truly appalled by Shredder's opinion, get over yourselves. Unless you started a non-profit or took a year or more out of your career track (TFA, PC, AC, etc.) to serve others, you're just par for the course. Give those on the admissions committees some credit, they have seen it ALL before. At best, your 500ish hours of hospital volunteering proves that you can tolerate the average patient base and have been thinking about medicine for longer than it took you to fill out AMCAS and your secondaries. All kinds of people go into medicine, and it's almost a given that you're going to see attitudes like Shredder's become more and more common at every step of your training.

 

[CTSballer11]

Whoops, I spoke too soon

plus, it's spelled "douche bag".

Thank You

 

[BaylorGuy]

You guys talk way too much...way too fast.

We should all sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya, making smores, smoking the "wacky tabacky", and telling stories about how good it was back in the day.

Then, in the morning, we can decide whether or not we want to kill each other because we aren't altruistic enough, or dont have the right motivations, or are cynical, or so forth. Bah!!

 

[DrBowtie]

I have said it once and will say it again.
Altruism is an ideal that you can strive for but only a select few will truly attain.

Also I don't understand all the hatred towards people with different opinions. Did you really think people who share Shredder's views didn't exist?

I think you guys should let it go and when you get the rads or path report and it is stamped by Dr. Shredder say thank you. Then you can go give your patient a warm and fuzzy by telling them they are cancer free.

Also if you are feeling especially altruistic you can PM me for my forwarding information for your paycheck. After all, medicine is a profession. We do a job and get PAID for it. That is certainly not selfless.

 

[monu1234]

shredder, you're line about altruism being a way for subsidizing laziness is sooooo narrow minded. i'm thinking about you imagining someone in a welfare line as you wrote that. people just fall on hard times and need to rely on institutionalized altruisim while they recover.

that being said, i think you did bring up a good point of altruism being blown out of proportion. i volunteered all throughout my high school years, and then when i got to college, i was told to do some more volunteering to have on my resume. it didn't matter that i wouldn't get much more out of the experience, i just had to do it so i could say i did it. i'm not bitter about it, b/c i just played with kids but at the same time, it was stupid how i was forced to do it. i feel like alot of people just do things so they can put it on their resumes, with no actual interests in helping people. they just play the afforementioned (sorry for misspellings) "game".

wow, this posts of mine was kinda incoherent, sorry.

 

[visualwealth]

Another 20 minutes wasted!! I am now stupider after reading this thread!!
My view about altruism and the admissions process is that it is a necessary factor to decide who will be the best doctor among a pool of equals… There are no definite criteria for deciding which individuals will be the best doctors. Specifically, if it was a definite fact that all students with good stats would be the best doctors and researchers then the process would be more cut and dry… From what I have heard and noticed anyone that completes a residency is good or rarely very good… So the whole idea that you are producing doctors of less quality when considering altruism as a factor is egregious and fraught with error.

PS
It does suck that many people who perform altruistic activities are very selfish that is, many spend 1000 hours of altruism in blah blah country but, after they are admitted to a medical school they quit all the clubs they created and, cease to help in organizing all the great trips they where enthusiastic about just a few years earlier… Pretty pathetic if you ask me!

 

[DrBowtie]

Another 20 minutes wasted!! I am now stupider after reading this thread!!
My view about altruism and the admissions process is that it is a necessary factor to decide who will be the best doctor among a pool of equals… There are no definite criteria for deciding which individuals will be the best doctors. Specifically, if it was a definite fact that all students with good stats would be the best doctors and researchers then the process would be more cut and dry… From what I have heard and noticed anyone that completes a residency is good or rarely very good… So the whole idea that you are producing doctors of less quality when considering altruism as a factor is egregious and fraught with error.

PS
It does suck that many people who perform altruistic activities are very selfish that is, many spend 1000 hours of altruism in blah blah country but, after they are admitted to a medical school they quit all the clubs they created and, cease to help in organizing all the great trips they where enthusiastic about just a few years earlier… Pretty pathetic if you ask me!

I dont understand why you think altruism should be in the admissions process. It isn't what makes a good doctor either. So by your logic, what should be the criteria?

Altruism cannot be quant. compared hence why I see a problem in how it can be used in the process to compare one app to another.

 

[tigress]

So go get a PhD if that's your primary motivation. The job security is better, the money is more than adequate, you can study a topic that intersts you much more thoroughly than if you're a practicing physician, you can study the diseases even more thoroughly, and you can do it all for more pay, fewer hours, and the chances of becoming uber-rich are greater than for a regular ol MD. The only thing that's missing is the patient contact--that aspect of an individual helping an individual out. That's the aspect that drives most people to become an MD. Like it or not, that's the altruism or compassion or whatever that the adcoms are looking for. And I feel that they're rightfully looking for it. My contention is that if you don't have that person-helping-person aspect, you'd probably be happier in a slightly different line of work. You don't have to be a bleeding heart type, but serving others ought to be one of your most fundamental motivations.

Actually, if I love the process of diagnosis, and I love medicine because I'm interested in disease, a PhD would be the wrong way to go. I know, because I spent half a year in a PhD program before leaving. I don't love the basic science aspect of medicine, I love the medical part. As a scientist, you focus on one tiny aspect of a particular area, usually one particular disease, for your entire career. What I'm most attracted to in medicine is the variety of illness, disorder, trauma, etc., that doctors are faced with. A GP, who probably sees much of the same stuff day after day, has to have a strong base of knowledge of different problems from which to derive his diagnoses and treatment plans. The process of diagnosis is so cool. The procedures, even just prescribing medicine, the interventions you can engage in as a doctor, are amazing. None of this is particularly related to compassion, but it is quite specific to medicine as a field.

And I've said before, I do have compassion, and I'm excited that I'll get to help people. I think that's cool. I care very much about healthcare, about underserved populations, all of that. But those are side benefits, not my primary reasons for wanting to be a doctor. And truthfully, I'm glad of that, because when I'm dealing with really tough spots, when I see how the system screws people over, when I'm expected to bow to the system even at the expense of patient care, when all of the things that make students and residents disillusioned with medicine happen to me, I'll have more of a base to fall back on than just the idealistic notion of wanting to help people. I think that will make the process easier to get through.

 

[tigress]

Ok, one more thing...

I know a lot of you have probably volunteered in a medical setting, but wait until you get to experience the aspects of dealing with insurance, compromising with insurance for patient care, patients who don't follow your medical advice and are repeatedly hospitalized fro the same things, patients who just don't care and expect you to do everything, long hours, unfriendly staff, you get the picture. Not that competent patient care shouldn't be our first priority (including being sincere), but physicians (and I'm sure nurses, techs, even me an SLP) get somewhat jaded.

That's pretty much why I agree with how Shredder feels, although I do agree with others in that adcoms probably don't like that there is some cynicism of thought. As an applicant it's probably better to hope for the best, and convery that you hope for the best, instead of being sickeningly sweet. By doing that, you can address current issues in healthcare and how you would try to remedy it. I think that makes for a better approach than "fudging" it.

I will sit down now and take my beating.

Megboo, you're one smart woman 🙂

Actually, I've surprised myself by becoming MORE attracted by the compassion aspect of medicine since I've started working with patients every day. I get so frustrated by the insurance problems, difficult doctors and patients, long hours, etc. But I'm dealing with terminally ill patients, and every day I feel more and more like I just want to do whatever I can to help them. I suppose at some point I'll reach a balance of being compassionate and distancing myself enough so that I maintain my own identity and life. The doctor I work with has not done this; her entire identity is caring for patients, which she does about 21 hours a day. Literally. I have respect for her, in a way, but I also think it's not healthy, and I feel bad for her family. But even with her, I see that it's partly a power struggle, and a struggle to be recognized for doing great work. Even this woman who spends all of her time working to help her patients has personal, selfish (as opposed to selfless) reasons for doing so, on top of all of the charitable and compassionate reasons. Not that that changes what she does, or diminishes it in any way.