Insincerity, selflessness, and apps

[DrBowtie]

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Nonetheless, I don't understand why you made your first attack on me.

 

[Shredder]

Obviously you don't know what my goals are since I am trying to go into Med Biz to make the system more efficient. I think you are picking the wrong fight here.

yeah...its better to fix the machine than to throw dimes into it. eventually it will just swallow more and more. its funny observing bitterness and bellicosity. heheh shrank the sig

 

[DrBowtie]

Figured it might save some storage space on the deathly ill servers.

 

[Suppuration]

its funny observing bitterness and bellicosity.

It doesn't hold a candle to observing vapid pre-froshes who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

Time for bed. Good night, gents.

P.S. Tell Brett I found his Tampax.

 

[monu1234]

P.S. Tell Brett I found his Tampax.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, mean but funny, but funny indeed

 

[monu1234]

If you considered the woman a conservative you are an idiot. Bush will probably get to appoint 2 more judges after his Roberts nomination.

Congratulations on not knowing what the hell you're talking about!

i didn't conisder "the woman" (I assume you're talking about Sandra Day O'conner") a conservative , Ronald Regean (the republican president who nominated her) did... furthermore, even if she weren't a conservative (most people and news media do consider her a moderate conservative btw), there would a 5 out of 9- an advantage for conservatives, still- also, the only person who is remotely beleived to step down is renquist... who else do you think will retire? or do you think the president is going to add an extra seat to the supreme court (WHICH HE CAN'T)?

thanks for the congratulations

 

[Its_MurDAH]

It doesn't hold a candle to observing vapid pre-froshes who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

Time for bed. Good night, gents.

P.S. Tell Brett I found his Tampax.

pwnage

 

[gujuDoc]

I grew up in the town that JW Gacey was held in prison, and that avatar is really disturbing to me 😱

Wow that's real real real creepy and disturbing. And yes, clowns are scary as $hit.

 

[silas2642]

Wow that's real real real creepy and disturbing. And yes, clowns are scary as $hit.

How did this thread get to be where it is today? If you read it from like page 6 on, you have no idea what the hell is going on.

 

[Centinel]

i didn't conisder "the woman" (I assume you're talking about Sandra Day O'conner") a conservative , Ronald Regean (the republican president who nominated her) did... furthermore, even if she weren't a conservative (most people and news media do consider her a moderate conservative btw), there would a 5 out of 9- an advantage for conservatives, still- also, the only person who is remotely beleived to step down is renquist... who else do you think will retire? or do you think the president is going to add an extra seat to the supreme court (WHICH HE CAN'T)?

thanks for the congratulations

Looking at this from the historical standpoint, she is a conservative. Especially considering, say, that she was a Republican state senator in Arizona. Anyway, though she was a moderate conservative on the Rehnquist court, her appointment marked another step in the rightward shift in the post-Earl Warren Supreme Court.

 

[silas2642]

Your numbers are solid, and you have research and other relevant distinctions. Also, you have some clinical exposure (was that summer program SMEP? just curious btw.) What are you worried about? honestly, I would never pin you to be neurotic like the rest of us 😉 but this thread shows you have your own share of vulnerabilities

It seems your chances are really good and I think things will go well for you. Just do well during your interviews. There is no room for even the slightest hint of arrogance during the interview. Show them you'd be a fun classmate and their student body could benefit from having you, but be humble and honest.

And don't sweat it, you'll get interviews. Flip through the MSAR to reassure yourself community service and volunteering is not required, they report what percentages do such activities. Just remember you've got a lot under your belt and you don't have to have everything the "cookie-cutter" premed presents.

Good point.. if I were you and granted interviews (and you will get interviews despite the fact you don't deserve them because you're an arrogant prick) due to your "magnificent" numbers, I would do my very best to not act like myself. In fact, I would act the opposite of myself.

However, keep in mind that as a physician, you will have to work with patients, i.e. people who are sick. As a person who apparently lacks compassion and a sincere desire to help others in need, this may pose a slight problem to your happiness, even if you become that rich and famous doctor. You see, patients don't like doctors who see dollar signs on their diseased bodies, who treat them like a piece of meat, and neither do the staff that works for Dr. Jerk.

Please keep in mind that as a result of your high stats, we are all impressed by your intellectualism and completely dazzled by your genius. Personally, I feel honored that you and I are even sharing the same forum (although I feel a little disgusted too) and if I had a red carpet to roll out for you, I would. However, I have been around the block enough times to realize that the smartest people are very often not at the very top of their class and that the people at the top of their class are often not the smartest people. I am also well aware that the MCAT is not an indicator of how competent a future
physician will develop into.

So on behalf of future patients and co-workers everywhere, please take your far superior brain somewhere outside the field of medicine. If you prefer, work in a lab, become a lawyer, a businessman, or enter any profession that doesn't involve humanity as a requirement.

 

[Its_MurDAH]

Good point.. if I were you and granted interviews (and you will get interviews despite the fact you don't deserve them because you're an arrogant prick) due to your "magnificent" numbers, I would do my very best to not act like myself. In fact, I would act the opposite of myself.

However, keep in mind that as a physician, you will have to work with patients, i.e. people who are sick. As a person who apparently lacks compassion and a sincere desire to help others in need, this may pose a slight problem to your happiness, even if you become that rich and famous doctor. You see, patients don't like doctors who see dollar signs on their diseased bodies, who treat them like a piece of meat, and neither do the staff that works for Dr. Jerk.

Please keep in mind that as a result of your high stats, we are all impressed by your intellectualism and completely dazzled by your genius. Personally, I feel honored that you and I are even sharing the same forum (although I feel a little disgusted too) and if I had a red carpet to roll out for you, I would. However, I have been around the block enough times to realize that the smartest people are very often not at the very top of their class and that the people at the top of their class are often not the smartest people. I am also well aware that the MCAT is not an indicator of how competent a future
physician will develop into.

So on behalf of future patients and co-workers everywhere, please take your far superior brain somewhere outside the field of medicine. If you prefer, work in a lab, become a lawyer, a businessman, or enter any profession that doesn't involve humanity as a requirement.

pwnage X 2

 

[tank you]

well, since i cant sleep and i have nothing better to do at 2:30am, i thought i would read this entire thread.
at least we all know exactly how shredder feels about altruism 😉

 

[Shredder]

well, since i cant sleep and i have nothing better to do at 2:30am, i thought i would read this entire thread.
at least we all know exactly how shredder feels about altruism 😉

sigh, why am i up, cant even fall back on pacific time zone excuse like you. altruism...too much rand man, its an economic thing. fascinating though, and logical.

 

[Shredder]

Good point.. if I were you and granted interviews (and you will get interviews despite the fact you don't deserve them because you're an arrogant prick) due to your "magnificent" numbers, I would do my very best to not act like myself. In fact, I would act the opposite of myself.

However, keep in mind that as a physician, you will have to work with patients, i.e. people who are sick. As a person who apparently lacks compassion and a sincere desire to help others in need, this may pose a slight problem to your happiness, even if you become that rich and famous doctor. You see, patients don't like doctors who see dollar signs on their diseased bodies, who treat them like a piece of meat, and neither do the staff that works for Dr. Jerk.

Please keep in mind that as a result of your high stats, we are all impressed by your intellectualism and completely dazzled by your genius. Personally, I feel honored that you and I are even sharing the same forum (although I feel a little disgusted too) and if I had a red carpet to roll out for you, I would. However, I have been around the block enough times to realize that the smartest people are very often not at the very top of their class and that the people at the top of their class are often not the smartest people. I am also well aware that the MCAT is not an indicator of how competent a future
physician will develop into.

So on behalf of future patients and co-workers everywhere, please take your far superior brain somewhere outside the field of medicine. If you prefer, work in a lab, become a lawyer, a businessman, or enter any profession that doesn't involve humanity as a requirement.

its in a docs financial self interest to treat patients well and do a good job. whatever keeps them and the money rolling in. actually...the truly selfless doc will do his best to make sure his patients never return again. the end goal of medicine should be the abolishment of the healthcare industry entirely, putting all docs out of jobs. meaning, the complete elimination of illness and suffering. so medicine is different in this regard from other businesses, where having repeat customers is a good thing. ive heard some doc places a placard on his desk reading "hope to not see you again." so maybe medicine is selfless, but only if you all would be willing to work to the point of unemployment. thoughts? 😴

 

[CTSballer11]

its in a docs financial self interest to treat patients well and do a good job. whatever keeps them and the money rolling in. actually...the truly selfless doc will do his best to make sure his patients never return again. the end goal of medicine should be the abolishment of the healthcare industry entirely, putting all docs out of jobs. meaning, the complete elimination of illness and suffering. so medicine is different in this regard from other businesses, where having repeat customers is a good thing. ive heard some doc places a placard on his desk reading "hope to not see you again." so maybe medicine is selfless, but only if you all would be willing to work to the point of unemployment. thoughts? 😴

Medicine has a bright future. Why? Regardless of the new technology, medications, there will never be a magic pill that will cure sickness. No one in their right mind would go into medicine if all the diseases were cured. Docs do there best to rid their patients of sickness and then move on to the next patient. Medicine has repeat business. For example, if a surgeon fixes his patient he will continue to get business from refering docs. The academic docs are willing to work into unemployment, but the private practice doc is more worried about making money.

 

[Shredder]

Medicine has a bright future. Why? Regardless of the new technology, medications, there will never be a magic pill that will cure sickness. No one in their right mind would go into medicine if all the diseases were cured. Docs do there best to rid their patients of sickness and then move on to the next patient. Medicine has repeat business. For example, if a surgeon fixes his patient he will continue to get business from refering docs. The academic docs are willing to work into unemployment, but the private practice doc is more worried about making money.

i guess what i was getting at is a preventive medicine approach. if there were more emphasis on prevention, i think cardiology would hurt the most. they would lose a ton of patients if ppl took better care of themselves. can you think of anything else? something like ortho would never suffer, since there are always crashes and injuries. cancer...i cant even remember what the docs are called, too drowsy, but they would suffer some, especially lungs, maybe breast too.

medicine doesnt have repeat business in the same way as other businesses do. if you keep treating the same patient over and over again and you do that with all of your patients, thats fishy. you would hope to heal them and send them home for good at some point. whereas in business if customers keep coming back for more, thats great.

but anyway, it is in a docs self interest to treat patients well, regardless of his motivation. i dont know where people get the idea of the greedy, wicked, mean spirited doc. the smart greedy doc will be amiable.

 

[CTSballer11]

i guess what i was getting at is a preventive medicine approach. if there were more emphasis on prevention, i think cardiology would hurt the most. they would lose a ton of patients if ppl took better care of themselves. can you think of anything else? something like ortho would never suffer, since there are always crashes and injuries. cancer...i cant even remember what the docs are called, too drowsy, but they would suffer some, especially lungs, maybe breast too.

medicine doesnt have repeat business in the same way as other businesses do. if you keep treating the same patient over and over again and you do that with all of your patients, thats fishy. you would hope to heal them and send them home for good at some point. whereas in business if customers keep coming back for more, thats great.

but anyway, it is in a docs self interest to treat patients well, regardless of his motivation. i dont know where people get the idea of the greedy, wicked, mean spirited doc. the smart greedy doc will be amiable.

Cardiologists are all for preventative medicine. The American Heart Association made up primarily of heart docs, advocates eating healthy and living a healthy lifetsyle. As we all know America is plagued with obesity, smokers, etc. So cardiologists are a long way away from extinction, in fact they are thriving, I am curious to see how long this will last. It is difficult to find areas in medicine that can become extinct due to preventative medicine. I think that 80% of lung cancer is self inflicted, a lot of trauma is due to recklessness so trauma surgeons could lose business if people were more careful i suppose. The smart greedy doc knows patient satisfaction is key, so they will always have business.

 

[Shredder]

Cardiologists are all for preventative medicine. The American Heart Association made up primarily of heart docs, advocates eating healthy and living a healthy lifetsyle. As we all know America is plagued with obesity, smokers, etc. So cardiologists are a long way away from extinction, in fact they are thriving, I am curious to see how long this will last. It is difficult to find areas in medicine that can become extinct due to preventative medicine. I think that 80% of lung cancer is self inflicted, a lot of trauma is due to recklessness so trauma surgeons could lose business if people were more careful i suppose. The smart greedy doc knows patient satisfaction is key, so they will always have business.

makes sense. the smart greedy doc is the best doc. patients should hope their docs are smart greedy docs. foolish greedy is horrible though, the type of docs who swindle and do shady business. that has terrible long term financial prospects once his true colors are revealed. it is analogous to the swindling shopkeeper who loses all credibility once his shenenigans are uncovered. youre right about trauma, if people were more careful business would decrease, especially drunk drivers. true, they do advocate healthy this and that huh...but ppl dont listen.

 

[tacrum43]

the more you factor in altruism in applicants, the more compromise you will have to make in potential skills as docs.

But what if altruism is an essential skill for a doctor to have?

(This is quoting from way back in thread btw)

 

[tacrum43]

It's not. Very few work for free. Even if they feel good about what they do for a living, it's not as if doctors are the most important part of the healthcare team. Hospitals and clinics can't operate without the other essential staff, and they all do it for pay.

It's good to strive for altruism, but the only place it truly can work is in the Vatican, and even that falls through sometimes.

Hmm, you make some good points. I still think it's good for a doctor to be altruistic. Maybe I'm just a being naive. I still think that's better than being cynical though (not that I'm saying you are).

 

[calcrew14]

Someday, all docs will be altruistic. Right now, they only have to do the first thing first which is to get as rich as they can so that they or their next generation can be altruistic. The problem is in those two insurmountable hurdles in the form of HMO administrations and Internal Revenue Services. Blame those two monsters for the lack of altruism in medicine. They are always in the way.

Blame just the IRS for insincerity and selflessness though.

 

[tacrum43]

Someday, all docs will be altruistic. Right now, they only have to do the first thing first which is to get as rich as they can so that they or their next generation can be altruistic. The problem is in those two insurmountable hurdles in the form of HMO administrations and Internal Revenue Services. Blame those two monsters for the lack of altruism in medicine. They are always in the way.

Blame just the IRS for insincerity and selflessness though.

selflessness?

 

[calcrew14]

selflessness?

I am referring to the part of the thread that probably should have been the lack of it. You are lucky because I usually don't clarify my post.

 

[Shredder]

But what if altruism is an essential skill for a doctor to have?

(This is quoting from way back in thread btw)

the smart greedy doc is just superior. you can be sure that the smart greedy businessman will deliver better goods, services, and innovation than the purely altruistic one. btw bill gates is the biggest philanthropist in the world, even bigger than our mod

 

[tacrum43]

I am referring to the part of the thread that probably should have been the lack of it. You are lucky because I usually don't clarify my post.

Note to self: 8/19/2005, calcrew14, in all his/her graciousness, has bestowed upon unworthy me a clarification of his/her post. What to do first: call my mom or go to Disneyland?

 

[tacrum43]

the smart greedy doc is just superior. you can be sure that the smart greedy businessman will deliver better goods, services, and innovation than the purely altruistic one. btw bill gates is the biggest philanthropist in the world, even bigger than our mod

Maybe in sheer $$$, but I doubt he is in % of net worth. I mean, which is a bigger sacrifice, $100 million to Bill Gates or the kid who gives the $100 he got for his birthday to charity?

Yes, it is nice of Bill Gates to donate money to charitable causes, but I would say someone like Mother Theresa gave a lot more relative to what she had to give.

 

[CTSballer11]

the smart greedy doc is just superior. you can be sure that the smart greedy businessman will deliver better goods, services, and innovation than the purely altruistic one. btw bill gates is the biggest philanthropist in the world, even bigger than our mod

I had a convo with my dad about this today. Greedy docs want to bring in as much money as possible, and the only way to do this and be successful in the long run is to provide better care/outcomes then your competitors. Competition for more money will only bring out the best in patient care. Altruism sounds nice and all, but take into account student loans and insurance companies trying to screw you, the new doc learns fast. Money keeps the hospital going.

 

[tacrum43]

I had a convo with my dad about this today. Greedy docs want to bring in as much money as possible, and the only way to do this and be successful in the long run is to provide better care/outcomes then your competitors. Competition for more money will only bring out the best in patient care. Altruism sounds nice and all, but take into account student loans and insurance companies trying to screw you, the new doc learns fast. Money keeps the hospital going.

Well couldn't you argue then that because you are providing superior care, the money naturally comes in?

 

[Shredder]

Well couldn't you argue then that because you are providing superior care, the money naturally comes in?

i dont see any argument about that. the money is the incentive to provide superior care though. this is how all businesses work, healthcare being one of them.

its a much bigger sacrifice by Gates. if i donate all of my net worth right now (if it is even positive), by your standard i beat Bill Gates in philanthropy. by mine i dont, bc i know i will just earn it back manyfold in the future. as will the little kid. bill gates has done much more for the world than theresa. if everyone takes on a theresa mentality, everything will be in shambles. would you rather bring theresa back to life, or give up Google? i say let her rest in peace.

 

[tacrum43]

i dont see any argument about that. the money is the incentive to provide superior care though. this is how all businesses work, healthcare being one of them.

its a much bigger sacrifice by Gates. if i donate all of my net worth right now (if it is even positive), by your standard i beat Bill Gates in philanthropy. by mine i dont, bc i know i will just earn it back manyfold in the future. as will the little kid. bill gates has done much more for the world than theresa. if everyone takes on a theresa mentality, everything will be in shambles. would you rather bring theresa back to life, or give up Google? i say let her rest in peace.

It may be more helpful to more people because Gates had more money to give, but that doesn't mean it is more meaningful. Of course, that's my Christian perspective talking, no the bottom line.

And by the way, while Google is very useful, 🙁 about the taking it over Mother Theresa.

 

[Shredder]

It may be more helpful to more people because Gates had more money to give, but that doesn't mean it is more meaningful. Of course, that's my Christian perspective talking, no the bottom line.

And by the way, while Google is very useful, 🙁 about the taking it over Mother Theresa.

if the world took a vote on who could live, gates or the little boy, gates would win. just to put it in simplified terms. Google means more to me, and I think to the world and its progress, than theresa ever did or would. im also christian, but i dont think about it too much.

$0.02

 

[tacrum43]

if the world took a vote on who could live, gates or the little boy, gates would win. just to put it in simplified terms. Google means more to me, and I think to the world and its progress, than theresa ever did or would. im also christian, but i dont think about it too much.

$0.02

I wasn't wishing death or anything on any of them by the way. Even Google. I am definitely a fan of Google.

 

[Shredder]

I wasn't wishing death or anything on any of them by the way. Even Google. I am definitely a fan of Google.

nor was I. only drawing comparisons

 

[Shredder]

That might depend on which version of Windows they were running (ha ha ha)!

heheh...good old ME. or, how much of their fortune or ideas gates has stolen from them

40 yr old virgin...im going to see it with my friend today. im curious to see what kind of crowd it draws. i feel so nerdy, treating movies as sociological studies.

 

[tank you]

to answer your original question, i think theres no way around it, you have to show, or at least fake, altruism to some extent to get admitted to med school. what you do after that depends on your motives and goals.

 

[Shredder]

to answer your original question, i think theres no way around it, you have to show, or at least fake, altruism to some extent to get admitted to med school. what you do after that depends on your motives and goals.

If you can't dazzle em brilliance, baffle em with bull$hit. sigh, its gonna be tough w/o any volunteering. what a hoax!

 

[CTSballer11]

If you can't dazzle em brilliance, baffle em with bull$hit. sigh, its gonna be tough w/o any volunteering. what a hoax!

I like that motto. Shredder, since you are an MBA/MD applicant one would think business skills are more important than selflessness. But who knows what the hell ADCOMS want.

 

[Shredder]

I like that motto. Shredder, since you are an MBA/MD applicant one would think business skills are more important than selflessness. But who knows what the hell ADCOMS want.

yeah its a business saying heheh. i wish it was MBA/MD, but its MD/MBA and that is significant. that means med schools call the shots in admissions, not b schools. i think for all dual degrees, med schools have the upper hand. the iron fist, rather. so i dont think one can preach about the bottom line and expect success.

 

[drmota]

wow, a 24 page thread? and shredder makes up about half the posts. good work buddy 😎
-mota

 

[troszic]

If you can't dazzle em brilliance, baffle em with bull$hit. sigh, its gonna be tough w/o any volunteering. what a hoax!

I'm doing a dual degree program, I have no volunteering experience (don't want any), and I don't buy into this madness.

Its wonderful how so many pre-meds do tons of volunteer stuff with the sole purpose of slapping it down callously on their resumes, and then go on to pretend that they did it out of the kindness of their hearts. And afterwards, they look like decent human beings on paper. Working at soup kitchens to pull one over on the adcoms... heartwarming.

Also, I loathe this ludicrously childish notion that good personality traits can actually be developed by volunteering. As if, after the age of 20, people with no social skills can magically obtain them through a few hours of Habitat for Humanity a week.

Sorry folks, you can't just "build" leadership or communication skills. You either suck at these things or you don't, and no goody-goody activity is going to develop them for you either. Figuratively speaking, leaders are born, not trained.

Probably the only real way to improve your personality is to look carefully at yourself, make a frank and honest appraisal of your character, and then make a sustained, utterly serious attempt to improve. But since many (not all) pre-meds are pretty terrible at honest appraisal of themselves, this is probably not an option for them

Yeah, I'm a cynic. But we cynics prefer to go by our proper name: "realists."

 

[Shredder]

So? He started the thread. Let's beat him up for that, too! (not!)

one has to care for one's threads!

I'm doing a dual degree program

what kind? i agree with what you said. its a shame.

 

[Law2Doc]

Its wonderful how so many pre-meds do tons of volunteer stuff with the sole purpose of slapping it down callously on their resumes, and then go on to pretend that they did it out of the kindness of their hearts. And afterwards, they look like decent human beings on paper. Working at soup kitchens to pull one over on the adcoms... heartwarming.

Also, I loathe this ludicrously childish notion that good personality traits can actually be developed by volunteering. As if, after the age of 20, people with no social skills can magically obtain them through a few hours of Habitat for Humanity a week.
"

Sorry in advance if I duplicate others points -- I didn't make it through the entire thread...
The adcoms dictate what premeds do in terms of altruism -- it has become a prerequisite for medical school, so don't blame the premeds for making themselves look like mother theresa on paper. You will likely encounter adcoms who will specifically ask you about what non-medical community service or charitable type stuff, if any, you do -- especially so at those (usually state) schools that make a point of administering care to underserved populations. I had one interviewer tell me that my application was troubling to her as I only had hospital related volunteering and nothing non-medically charitably oriented. So there's nothing wrong with a premed doing charitable stuff to satisfy the requirements of such a school -- even if he isn't "feeling it" -- that isn't "pulling one over" on the adcoms, that is following their lead, doing what they ask.
But for the other (esp. private) institutions, I think you most get into med school without showing a particularly altruistic bent -- particularly if you can show excitement or passion in things like research, or a strong reason for being excited about some aspect of medical practice.
What you can't do is say (or believe) you want to get into medicine for salary or societal prestige reasons, because frankly this kind of motivation hasn't been shown to happilly carry you through the many grueling years of training medicine requires. And for dual degree types, you need to have the mindset that you want to be a physician first, and use the other degree in a support role, because the four years of med school and umpteen years of residency are too hard if you have a distant unrelated target you are trying to survive to -- you need to be invested in and excited about what you are doing in the here and now, not just serving your sentence until its over and you can continue with your dreams. When you come across a disgruntled resident or med student who hates the profession, it is frequently because he wasn't ever excited about practicing at least some aspect of practicing medicine day and night -- he just wanted the perqs that come with the white coat. Being altruistic helps, but so does just simply being excited about being a practitioner (even if it's not your ultimate target).

 

[troszic]

I very much agree that a large part of this has to do with the adcoms.

Adcoms are almost like Advertising Agencies, they come up with half-baked ideas that sound good on paper and then don't put any further thought into them. Consider the following vacuous statement:

"The admission committee selects applicants for matriculation who have demonstrated the personal qualities of commitment to medical research, dedication to the ideal of service to society," etc., etc.

Demonstrated dedication to the ideal of service to society, eh?
There are a number of problems with this:
1. Delusions of Grandeur: Doctors cannot solve social problems, so why should we look for this quality in pre-meds. Social problems are much greater in scope than the medical profession. If this adcom had said "compassion," I wouldn't be so bad. Furthermore, I think these adcom people should be ashamed of themselves for feeding into this bizarre idea that doctors can change the world. They can't. Which leads into point two

2. Doctors aren't supposed to change the world. They are supposed to deliver health care in return for monetary payment, which can then be exchanged for goods and services.

3. Let's say, for ****s and giggles, that the "ideal of service to society" affects how a doctor conducts himself with his patients. Let's pretend that good doctors should walk into the office or hospital every morning saying to themselves, "Today I shall clothe the naked, feed the hungy, shelter the homeless, and, if I have time, heal the sick!" Even if that was the case, how in God's name would adcoms be able to tell who was genuine and who was fake. A crystal ball? Tarot cards? Its an impossible judgement to make! There are plenty of kids with no committment to the ideal of yadda-yadda who do tons of volunteer work to get it. Similarly, there are many kids with a committment to volunteer work that are waiting until later on in life to do it, which brings me to yet another point.

Tangent #1. If you are going to do some kind of charitable work or volunteer act, the time before you receive your medical training is not the time to do it, for economic reasons.

Take a simplification first. As a college student, the hours out of your day are worth anywhere between $8 and $15 (for most). The reason for this is because you haven't had value added to yourself through education or training. Once you finish college, go through medical school and residency, and begin a practice, you are worth a lot more, because you have a skill. Your hours are now worth a lot of money. The worth of your hours is directly related to society's valuation of them (in a free market). So here comes the point of the tangent: if you spend 3 hrs a week from your college years to help other people, you are being supremely inefficient and contributing $30 dollars to society. You should wait until you are a doctor, then contribute three hours a week, and benefit society a whole lot more. In non-monetary terms, when a college student volunteers at a hospital, he just pushes carts around, talks to patients, and does chimp work that absolutely anyone our age can do. Essentially, your services are next to worthless, and if you didn't do them, someone else would. But when a doctor gives up some of his free time to work in a clinic for poor people, he actually makes a difference.

To drive the point home, I point to Bill Gates. At our age, Bill did not do much volunteer work (I'm pretty sure). He invested all his time into developing his knowledge and skill base. Today, an hour of his work is worth lots and lots of dough. He can throw a billion dollars around like its nothing. And so NOW he donates to charity, and this makes sense. Ironically, the poor and downtrodden would actually be a lot worse off if Gates had spent more time volunteering as a child, because it would've taken away from the time that he used to learn computers and build up Microsoft, he wouldn't have been as successful, and then he wouldn't be contributing billions of dollars to charity today. Instead, his contribution to the world would be $30 a week of pushing carts around.

 

[pagemmapants]

*jaw drops*

How eloquently put! Thank you, troszic.

 

[MoosePilot]

You've got good points, but if you don't think doctors change the world everyday, then imagine a world without them.

People can judge sincerity and honesty in each other. ADCOMS don't need a crystal ball. That judgement isn't even close to 100% accurate, but I'd bet it's better than you allow in your post, especially when it's opposed by the incredible acting powers of a 23 year old kid.

The timing of volunteer work is spot on, except that most undergrads will take 4 years to finish anyway. I wager that if a given block of time wasn't going to be filled by volunteering, it would be more likely to be filled by partying or beer drinking than by delving deeper into their schoolwork and preparing for their future profession.

 

[gujuDoc]

I very much agree that a large part of this has to do with the adcoms.

Adcoms are almost like Advertising Agencies, they come up with half-baked ideas that sound good on paper and then don't put any further thought into them. Consider the following vacuous statement:

"The admission committee selects applicants for matriculation who have demonstrated the personal qualities of commitment to medical research, dedication to the ideal of service to society," etc., etc.

Demonstrated dedication to the ideal of service to society, eh?
There are a number of problems with this:
1. Delusions of Grandeur: Doctors cannot solve social problems, so why should we look for this quality in pre-meds. Social problems are much greater in scope than the medical profession. If this adcom had said "compassion," I wouldn't be so bad. Furthermore, I think these adcom people should be ashamed of themselves for feeding into this bizarre idea that doctors can change the world. They can't. Which leads into point two

2. Doctors aren't supposed to change the world. They are supposed to deliver health care in return for monetary payment, which can then be exchanged for goods and services.

3. Let's say, for ****s and giggles, that the "ideal of service to society" affects how a doctor conducts himself with his patients. Let's pretend that good doctors should walk into the office or hospital every morning saying to themselves, "Today I shall clothe the naked, feed the hungy, shelter the homeless, and, if I have time, heal the sick!" Even if that was the case, how in God's name would adcoms be able to tell who was genuine and who was fake. A crystal ball? Tarot cards? Its an impossible judgement to make! There are plenty of kids with no committment to the ideal of yadda-yadda who do tons of volunteer work to get it. Similarly, there are many kids with a committment to volunteer work that are waiting until later on in life to do it, which brings me to yet another point.

Tangent #1. If you are going to do some kind of charitable work or volunteer act, the time before you receive your medical training is not the time to do it, for economic reasons.

Take a simplification first. As a college student, the hours out of your day are worth anywhere between $8 and $15 (for most). The reason for this is because you haven't had value added to yourself through education or training. Once you finish college, go through medical school and residency, and begin a practice, you are worth a lot more, because you have a skill. Your hours are now worth a lot of money. The worth of your hours is directly related to society's valuation of them (in a free market). So here comes the point of the tangent: if you spend 3 hrs a week from your college years to help other people, you are being supremely inefficient and contributing $30 dollars to society. You should wait until you are a doctor, then contribute three hours a week, and benefit society a whole lot more. In non-monetary terms, when a college student volunteers at a hospital, he just pushes carts around, talks to patients, and does chimp work that absolutely anyone our age can do. Essentially, your services are next to worthless, and if you didn't do them, someone else would. But when a doctor gives up some of his free time to work in a clinic for poor people, he actually makes a difference.

To drive the point home, I point to Bill Gates. At our age, Bill did not do much volunteer work (I'm pretty sure). He invested all his time into developing his knowledge and skill base. Today, an hour of his work is worth lots and lots of dough. He can throw a billion dollars around like its nothing. And so NOW he donates to charity, and this makes sense. Ironically, the poor and downtrodden would actually be a lot worse off if Gates had spent more time volunteering as a child, because it would've taken away from the time that he used to learn computers and build up Microsoft, he wouldn't have been as successful, and then he wouldn't be contributing billions of dollars to charity today. Instead, his contribution to the world would be $30 a week of pushing carts around.

Somebody who finally can put what I want to say into words. Very well stated, I might add.

True altruism is hard to find in anyone, anywhere. I don't care what anyone says, but there are very very very very few people that do something without anything in it for them, including without even expecting a thank you. And those are the true acts of altruism.

 

[CTSballer11]

What you can't do is say (or believe) you want to get into medicine for salary or societal prestige reasons, because frankly this kind of motivation hasn't been shown to happilly carry you through the many grueling years of training medicine requires. QUOTE]

I believe that it is very hard to make it through "grueling years of training medicine requires" if money is your primary motivator. my uncles all went into medicine for the money and job security. They def love what they do, but if the money was half of what it is now, there is no way they would have gone into medicine.

I think troszic put it best. I prefer "realist" also.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Forget altruism for humanitarian causes. Elite medical schools are hypocratic in this regard when recruiting highly qualified medical students to become researchers. Altruism is a ploy to trick prospective physicians into thinking that it's good to make enormous sacrifices for little in return. This way they boost their own prestige by attracting the brightest people who dedicate themselves unwavering to their institution without expecting recompensation.

Say you cure some disease, create some vaccine, or develop a revolutionary medical product. Great you just made a significant contribution to society. But instead of being rewarded handsomely for your efforts, you are forced to sacrifice your laurels for the good of the university. Forget about contemplating whether you should donate $X millions to your favorite charity, the university makes all decisions for you by usurping all they can with their intellectual property agreements. Universities aren't benefactors of society, they are businesses with financial interests.

Take the case of Kary Mullis, nobel prize winner for PCR. http://www.megafoundation.org/Ubiquity/April00/BookReview1_4.html Although he single handedly revolutionized the field of biotechnology, he got practically nothing in return. The company he was working for sold the patent for $300 million, giving him nothing and screwing him royally. The exact same thing would have happened had he been at UCSF when he made his discovery.

In return for their intelligence, productivity, and sacrifice of wealth and time, medical schools have little to offer academicians other than the institution's prestige. They are dependent on their researchers for everything, but they offer relatively nothing in return. They pay them a measly salary compared to the rest of the field, expect them to earn so many millions of dollars per year in grant money to keep the institution endowed and withhold their tenure if they don't.

Altruism should be for the good of society, not for the good of the university. How can medical schools honestly promote altruism if they don't undertake any altruistic actions? Few med schools offer hospitals for the uninsured. Many minimize the amount of uninsured patients they treat. Few are involved in substantial not-for-profit projects. It seems like all they are after is funding.

The entire idea of service to society died once universities found out that they can make money if they ran their institutions like businesses. They shouldn't adhere to old world ideals of compassion and humanism if these values are no longer being practiced by the institutions themselves.

 

[tacrum43]

I'm doing a dual degree program, I have no volunteering experience (don't want any), and I don't buy into this madness.

Its wonderful how so many pre-meds do tons of volunteer stuff with the sole purpose of slapping it down callously on their resumes, and then go on to pretend that they did it out of the kindness of their hearts. And afterwards, they look like decent human beings on paper. Working at soup kitchens to pull one over on the adcoms... heartwarming.

Also, I loathe this ludicrously childish notion that good personality traits can actually be developed by volunteering. As if, after the age of 20, people with no social skills can magically obtain them through a few hours of Habitat for Humanity a week.

Sorry folks, you can't just "build" leadership or communication skills. You either suck at these things or you don't, and no goody-goody activity is going to develop them for you either. Figuratively speaking, leaders are born, not trained.

Probably the only real way to improve your personality is to look carefully at yourself, make a frank and honest appraisal of your character, and then make a sustained, utterly serious attempt to improve. But since many (not all) pre-meds are pretty terrible at honest appraisal of themselves, this is probably not an option for them

Yeah, I'm a cynic. But we cynics prefer to go by our proper name: "realists."

People do volunteering to gain experience and also because it is nice and feels good (in my opinion) to help others out, if only a little bit. If it's in a medically related field, then it's directly related. If not, it could still be very meaningful and broadening to see another part of society, because doctors treat everybody.

And plus, even if some people do only volunteer to pad their resume, at least they still volunteered and helped out, even if they were insincere while they were doing it.

P.S. I don't remember "slapping" anything down on my resume "callously" and "as if, after the age of 20" you know everything. 🙄