Institutional Action, Dean's Certification, Washington University, WHAT SHOULD I DO?

[biochemblues]

I'm a regular SDN poster, putting this concern up on another name to maintain anonymity:

Heeding advice previously found in several threads about institutional action (I read through as many as I could before submitting AMCAS), I gathered that minor infractions that did not appear on transcripts or committee letters should not be placed on the AMCAS's institutional action box for the sake of not hanging yourself over a dumb, minor mistake.

Mine was underage possession of alcohol (there was no direct evidence of the infraction but my friends and I were placed in a situation where we could not back ourselves out of, despite not being caught with any alcohol or being drunk for that matter, its a long story) that was cited by my school, and I had to pay a fine. This wasn't a recent infraction either and I am now of age, which in my mind makes this infraction rather silly and something that does not reflect my character. It would've been an awkward situation to fully explain as well in the AMCAS, yes I received the violation, but I felt that it was unjustified (see explanation above), yet I would have to also falsely claim that my attitude had changed to pad the negative perception associated with such an infraction (doctors shouldn't be substance abusers, many consider underage drinking of any kind to be alcohol abuse). The truth was that I had later issues with drinking that weren't punished by the school and I actually learned nothing from that incident. I continued to drink underage and I feel to this day that underage drinking should not be a crime (as it more or less ****s over those ages 18-20, but only in America and not other countries go figure).

So I submitted AMCAS with no problems on there...just recently after submission, I start to fill out available secondaries, including Washington University's. WashU is obviously not fvcking around and requires a "Dean's Certification" of your disciplinary record. I freak out and ask my Dean if I have a record...and of course that damn infraction is still on my record (which is fortunately protected from anyone seeing except by me or one of my school's administrators due to FERPA). However, this Dean's Certification is essentially a waiver of the FERPA rights to WashU admissions. I'm not gonna ask my Dean to lie or anything so this puts me in a tough spot should I choose to apply to WashU, since the Dean's Certification and my AMCAS won't match. BAD BAD BAD.

So here's where I come to SDN for advice, what should I do?

I see several options:

1. Come clean to all schools (10+) which I applied to. This is the feel good response. Be honest and save the day. Except when you realize that the schools will wonder why you didn't say it on AMCAS in the first place. This is not an option for me.

2. Send in the application to WashU and play dumb "I could've sworn I never fvcked up" OK, maybe they accept that and think nothing of such a minor thing, but can't they report such a problem to the AAMC which will force me into situation 1????? If so then this is also not an option for me.

3. Don't apply to WashU This is my feeling right now. Save the secondary money, kiss the AMCAS submission 30 bucks goodbye, and save any unnecessary drama from happening that could ruin my chances at all my schools. WashU is one of my lower choices (nothing against the school, just the location) and I wouldn't really cry over not getting a chance to go there, but at the same time it is a great school, and I know some WashU Med alumni who would be disappointed in me not applying, oh well.

OK, so thats my situation. I did a search and it appears that only WashU and MCW do a Dean's Certification on the applicant's discipline record at the time of the secondary application. I am worried that other schools will require this sort of thing as a stipulation for accepted applicants. Does any school require such a candid revealing of nontranscript records after acceptance?????? If so, then I may need to reassess my options and come clean (Can they report the inconsistency to AAMC and cause an investigation????????). However, if WashU is gonna be the only school to try to unnecessarily dig skeletons out of my closet, then I won't deal with them and narrow my list of schools.

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[silas2642]

When I first read the title to this post, I was thinking, "this guy must have cheated... he's completely screwed."

I don't think that underage possession of alcohol is a big deal. Definitely put it on the application, and if it comes up during an interview, admit that you were wrong and state what you learned from it (I wouldn't go with the "the drinking age should be 18" argument). Most college students drink while under the age, and as long as you weren't driving while intoxicated, you should be fine.

Again, definitely put it on your app. If you don't, are admitted to a school, and they find out later that you lied, then you could lose your acceptance even after you've matriculated.

But stop being so neurotic; that's my job!

 

[the12thmd]

You should have put it on the application. My pre-med advisor says that plenty of people have MIPs, and it doesn't hurt them.

---But hindsight is always 20/20.

I would not apply to WashU.

 

[rajad10]

You should have put it on the application. My pre-med advisor says that plenty of people have MIPs, and it doesn't hurt them.

---But hindsight is always 20/20.

I would not apply to WashU.

👍

 

[the12thmd]

By the way, it looks like you've already made up your mind. You just want the approval of SDN 🙂

 

[notdeadyet]

Looks like you know what direction you want to head. Your options are somewhat limited at this point.

I'd be careful how to position your thoughts on underage drinking though. I agree that it's silly that you can put a rifle in an 18 year old's hands and let him vote, but not drink beer. But you also see a LOT of damage in the ER from kids who can't handle their liquor flipping cars, getting in fights, doing incredibly stupid things.

I think sometimes a mea culpa is the best approach. Saying you're sorry it happened, but it's bull$hit anyway sounds as if you don't take it seriously. I doubt many physicians are blown away by the idea of college kids drinking, but Deans sure hate the idea of potential students with a history of breaking university rules.

As an aside, I find it quite funny that someone would create a new alias to protect the reptution of their anonymous alias.

 

[tapotti]

Wow, I thought I was the only one in this situation.

 

[Bluntman]

Biochemblues-

I had a couple alcohol and other random dorm violations freshman year, so I was in a similar situation to yours. Here's how it worked out for me: I didn't list any "institutional action" on my AMCAS. I then had to think about the same choices as you in re: WashU, but ended up just asking for the Dean's Certification and turning in the secondary to WashU anyway. Who knows if the dings on my record were mentioned on the form or not, but I did get an interview invite promptly from WashU.

Out of your choices, I definitely wouldn't consider #1: WashU, even if they somehow get pissed over this, is not going to go out of their way and contact the AAMC or your list of schools to get you screwed elsewhere. They have more important things to worry about. So between #2 and #3, I'd for sure go with #2. They'll get your cert form, it'll have the alcohol thing on it, and they probably won't think too much of it since they're probably getting dozens (hundreds?) of apps with the same thing. From here, I personally doubt they're ever going to make the "wait a moment, he should have listed this in that little institutional action box on the AMCAS" jump. If you get an interview and they do bring it up tho, then just play dumb like you said and say something with confidence like, "I thought it was clear that institutional action referred to things like academic dishonesty, academic probation, and plagiarism - things that could be potential indicators of my character and chances for success in med school. This was just a silly alcohol violation." And even if they do care from the start and don't even give you an interview invite, then like you said, it's not something you're gonna cry over.

As far as other schools, WashU was the only one that I applied to that had anything like that during the admissions process. Even at the two schools that I kept acceptances at for awhile, nobody ever came asking for me to waive my rights to my undergrad record like that. Same goes for the school that I'm ultimately matriculating at.

 

[MDizzle420]

I was in exactly the same situation 1 year ago. I had an institutional action for underage alcohol posession. I interviewed at 11 schools, all but 2 or 3 in the top 20. I really don't think it will affect you, and it certainly would not be worse than if the schools find out you lied to them. I came clean everywhere and put it on my AMCAS. Maybe it hurt me some places, maybe not others. At one interview, the interviewer actually said, "Wow! You made it through college with just ONE drinking violation?" Anyway, whenever I was asked about it, I just said (as I did on AMCAS) that it was stupid, all my fault, nobody else's fault, and it taught me to not do any more stupid ****. Just make sure you don't get in any more trouble. If it was a one-time mistake, nobody is going to hold that against you. Even though they are medical school admissions committee members, they are human, too, and have made plenty of mistakes in their own lives.

By the way, I did interview at Wash U and nobody asked me about it at all (currently waitlised there).

 

[tapotti]

Hey Bluntman, just curious but what other alcohol violations did you have?

 

[Bluntman]

Hey Bluntman, just curious but what other alcohol violations did you have?

One was for just being in the presence of alcohol (i.e. I was sitting at my desk but my door was open and someone was drinking in our suite common area), one was for just being drunk (this one is equally whack since I was in my bed with my door closed, but my roommate's fat amazonian ***** of a girlfirend made him call the security...talk about a shock when you wake up to the cops in your own room.). Only the 3rd one was for actually being caught with booze.

Jesus just recalling these brings back the furious anger that I have for UCSD's student life policies...they seriously legislate anti-fun.

 

[ADeadLois]

I don't think WashU would freak out too much. Just don't get into a debate with them (or anyone for that matter) about how insignificant underage drinking is. Thousands of minors die in drunk-driving accidents every year, as well as other alcohol-related incident. It is NOT an insignficant problem and you'll run into problems with someone trying to play devil's advocate.

 

[tapotti]

Biochemblues,

Let us know what you decide to do. I received an MIP last year, and had to meet with a counselor to discuss my "alcohol problems". Even though I was not convicted of the MIP, I still had "institutional action" taken against me according to my counselor (go figure). I think Wash U's secondary is pretty horrible for making us do this, and I am pretty sure I am not sending it in just because of it. I am going to talk to the dean of students here, and make sure I have a record of institutional action (it's not on my transcript) before I totally give up though. Anyway, good luck with the rest of your applications.

 

[TCIrish03]

Of all my friends in medical school, about half have gotten in trouble for underaged drinking, including me. I explained it clearly in my AMCAS and it was never even brought up in an interview.

I don't feel like scrolling back, but did you say that you already submitted your AMCAS without mentioning it? If so, and you get a secondary that asks you to list infractions like that, do it then. If you make it to the interview without it being mentioned, at the end when they ask if you have anything to say, mention it then. This happened to a friend and they appreciated her honesty (she got in).

College kids have been drinking since college was invented. Adcoms were there too at one point.

 

[biochemblues]

thanks for the input so far...I haven't had internet access the past 24 hours so I haven't been able to keep up with the thread!

obviously I can't change the AMCAS and so any advice about coming clean is really only applicable to those who haven't submitted.

 

[biochemblues]

As an aside, I find it quite funny that someone would create a new alias to protect the reptution of their anonymous alias.

Some on SDN know the identity of my other alias. Not to say I burn bridges because I don't, but just in case, I don't want to provide any ammo for malicious individuals.

 

[biochemblues]

If you get an interview and they do bring it up tho, then just play dumb like you said and say something with confidence like, "I thought it was clear that institutional action referred to things like academic dishonesty, academic probation, and plagiarism - things that could be potential indicators of my character and chances for success in med school. This was just a silly alcohol violation." And even if they do care from the start and don't even give you an interview invite, then like you said, it's not something you're gonna cry over.

As far as other schools, WashU was the only one that I applied to that had anything like that during the admissions process. Even at the two schools that I kept acceptances at for awhile, nobody ever came asking for me to waive my rights to my undergrad record like that. Same goes for the school that I'm ultimately matriculating at.

so nobody else has had any issues with schools requesting you to waive your rights to all ugrad records (not just transcripts) to med schools after acceptance??????

 

[biochemblues]

I don't think WashU would freak out too much. Just don't get into a debate with them (or anyone for that matter) about how insignificant underage drinking is. Thousands of minors die in drunk-driving accidents every year, as well as other alcohol-related incident. It is NOT an insignficant problem and you'll run into problems with someone trying to play devil's advocate.

In interview, etc., I won't talk about these beliefs I hold.

But, for the sake of arguement, shouldn't doctors be champions of personal choices, so long as they are educated? Drinking during ages 18,19,20 can be done safely in my opinion, if good judgement is used.

 

[biochemblues]

Of all my friends in medical school, about half have gotten in trouble for underaged drinking, including me. I explained it clearly in my AMCAS and it was never even brought up in an interview.

I don't feel like scrolling back, but did you say that you already submitted your AMCAS without mentioning it? If so, and you get a secondary that asks you to list infractions like that, do it then. If you make it to the interview without it being mentioned, at the end when they ask if you have anything to say, mention it then. This happened to a friend and they appreciated her honesty (she got in).

College kids have been drinking since college was invented. Adcoms were there too at one point.

I'm sure they'll appreciate my dishonesty on the AMCAS. Frankly, I see this as poor advice as I don't want to shoot myself in the face, especially if schools can't find about this infraction without me providing that information myself. The AMCAS holds little information about an applicant when you look at it (a few test scores and your grades, some basic biographical info, one short essay, and an incomplete albeit important list of activities done in college), I really didn't want to be talking about a minor drinking incident that has nothing to do with my character or ability and drive to be a physician. I also smoked up freshman year, but is that relevant for the AMCAS? No. Is it part of my history? Yes, but its something an adcom just doesn't need to know about.

 

[ADeadLois]

In interview, etc., I won't talk about these beliefs I hold.

But, for the sake of arguement, shouldn't doctors be champions of personal choices, so long as they are educated? Drinking during ages 18,19,20 can be done safely in my opinion, if good judgement is used.

I definitely agree with you. My point is that it is a VERY slippery slope, because you could have a doctor interview you who had to treat minors in drunk driving accidents. Even though ADCOMS understand that college students drink, it's dangerous to start rationalizing illegal and potentially destructive activities. It opens the door for a bastard interviewer to get on your case.

 

[jdawt]

I simply wouldn't apply to WashU, being a top 3 school and having a 38 median MCAT sort of makes them immune to any imperfection (by statistical standards, I don't by any means that WashU students are perfect).

Additionally, I wouldn't mention it (as you have already not done) on AMCAS because other schools who don't require institutional action reports from the Dean wll see your infraction listed in a seemingly voluntary fashion which could hinder your acceptances there as well, when they need not know. So I guess, if they ask, make your decision on what to do, but if they don't, then don't mention it.

Hope this helps, that's just my take

Good luck

 

[TCIrish03]

I'm sure they'll appreciate my dishonesty on the AMCAS. Frankly, I see this as poor advice as I don't want to shoot myself in the face, especially if schools can't find about this infraction without me providing that information myself. The AMCAS holds little information about an applicant when you look at it (a few test scores and your grades, some basic biographical info, one short essay, and an incomplete albeit important list of activities done in college), I really didn't want to be talking about a minor drinking incident that has nothing to do with my character or ability and drive to be a physician. I also smoked up freshman year, but is that relevant for the AMCAS? No. Is it part of my history? Yes, but its something an adcom just doesn't need to know about.

Fine, then don't apply. How is this being dishonest in an interview "well, Dr. concerning my AMCAS, I made an error in judgment in reporting institutional action, as I was confused what exactly they meant. I recieved a ticket for drinking underage..." It would have been your initiative to bring it up, and some people might like that. All I was saying was that was what a friend of mine did who was in a situation similar to yours, and it wasn't held against her.

 

[notdeadyet]

But, for the sake of arguement, shouldn't doctors be champions of personal choices, so long as they are educated? Drinking during ages 18,19,20 can be done safely in my opinion, if good judgement is used.

Damage of you drinking underage? Minimal.
Damage of adcom's perception of you being dishonest about it? Huge.

 

[Dov]

I was busted for underage drinking my freshman year. I came clean on AMCAS though. I would write a brief letter to your schools saying you forgot about the incident while working on amcas (I forgot about mine until the day before I submitted AMCAS), provide a brief explanation, and say you have learned from the mistake (whether you did or not as long as you dont have anymore alcohol violations). DO NOT TRY TO ARGUE THAT UNDERAGE DRINKING SHOULD BE LEGAL!!! YOU KNOWINGLY BROKE A LAW; ARGUING THAT THE LAW SHOULDN'T APPLY IS A DEATH SENTANCE TO ADCOMS. Your infraction is MINOR... hiding stuff from admissions committees is MAJOR (if they find out, even during medical school they will kick you out). When I was decideding to put mine on my application or not I asked my dean. He said it may even look good to have one alcohol infraction showing you had a social life outside of pre-med. He laughed when I said I was worried.

Note to everyone!!! BE completely honest and forthcoming about everything.

 

[AmcasAnxiety]

I'm in a similar situation to biochemblues...I had a disciplinary problem, but because of mitigating circumstances it did not result in suspension, expulsion, or probation. I checked "No" on my AMCAS application b/c I thought the app was only referring to suspension/expulsion/probation.

However, the infraction does not show up on my transcript, and my records are sealed unless I sign a waiver form (i.e. Dean's Certification form).

To go back to biochemblues original question, has anyone had a med school ask them to sign a waiver/Dean's Certification form AFTER secondaries (like prior/after the interview, or even after acceptance?)

 

[notdeadyet]

.

 

[ANCAdoc]

If you are an exceptional applicant and have a GPA>3.7 and MCAT>29 then I wouldnt worry about it. But, small things like a disp. record could work against you if you are an avg applicant. If you are an avg or below avg applicant, then I wouldnt even apply to that school. You would hate for it to come up, and it bite you later on. Adcoms may well comminicate with each other.

 

[AmcasAnxiety]

Hey IUSM--

Thanks for the response.

Yeah, that's what I'm most worried about. I guess my numbers are pretty strong, but I know there are so many qualified applicants that it's impossible to tell. I've heard of people with really strong numbers getting rejected everywhere.

If you are an exceptional applicant and have a GPA>3.7 and MCAT>29 then I wouldnt worry about it. But, small things like a disp. record could work against you if you are an avg applicant. If you are an avg or below avg applicant, then I wouldnt even apply to that school. You would hate for it to come up, and it bite you later on. Adcoms may well comminicate with each other.