Institutional Action- Honor Code Violation- Best way to approach?

[MissIntrigued]

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[chiz2kul]

Ok I brought this up once before, sort of, but it's a new question now as before I was panicking on whether I should even mention it or not, but I have to mention it because I don't want to risk it all blowing up in my face...

Anyway, many moons ago (really, it's been....probably about 10 years now) in the first year and a half or so of college, I made the terrible mistake of letting someone else write a small essay for me. I didn't really look at it too much and just turned it in as my own. Turns out the person who "wrote" it actually just copied most of it from online somewhere, and hence, I got in trouble for plagiarizing. I told the honor board the truth-- that I had been depressed, stressed, had alot of problems at home and couldn't focus. I was panicking that this small 3 page paper was due and I couldn't get my head focused to just write it, so when someone offered to do it for me, I let them and handed it in as my own. I've never in my life done something like that...normally I take great pride in my ability to write papers. But I let my immaturity and panic take over and made a bad decision. I regret it in many ways, not just because I was caught, but I was otherwise embarressed. I was familiar with the topic, I even participated fully in class discussion regarding the book the paper was on, and I just froze the day before it was due. I shoudl have just turned it in late or asked the professor for more time, but you know what, if everyone thought clearly all the time, no one would ever think back and regret anything and wish they'd done things differently.

I can't change the past, but since then, I've graduated from my college, and spent the last four years working in healthcare where I handle my own patients and have rave reviews from all the physicians and managers I've ever worked for.

My question is basically, how do I best address this incident that happened so long ago, and will it really hinder me that badly? Honestly, adcomms are human beings, right? They must remember that they themselves were not always the most mature and same people at 18 years old that they were in their late 20's, which is my age now.

AMCAS only gives you a small paragraph to explain this incident and i don't know what to say. It's not alot of room.....any thoughts?

Please, no vague opinions from other pre-meds who have never been through this or have any idea what the admission people would think. Speculation will not help me.....advice from people in this situation, or adcomms themselves would be great.

Or if anyone has an idea on how to condense my story into one paragraph...I'm really at a loss. I don't believe one stupid incident like this should ruin a person's life and I would imagine adcomms should understand this too, but I know they want you to explain it to them.

Do I address it in the PS also, or is that one paragraph enough?

So what action did the honor board take....if any?

 

[MissIntrigued]

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[MissIntrigued]

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[silas2642]

Honestly, I wouldn't address this in the PS as well because you don't want to keep bringing attention to it. Address it in the appropriate section of AMCAS, and leave it at that.

The one thing that is concerning me here is that you seem to have considered not putting it on AMCAS because you looked up whether or not there was a record of institutional action against you that could be traced-- it kind of shows to me that you haven't exactly learned your lesson about honesty. AMCAS is pretty clear cut about academic dishonesty; this is not something you should have had to contact your school about-- you were automatically required to check the yes box.

And you have to be honest about this because if you are accepted and your school finds out about this, you can get kicked out and still have to pay back all your loans with nothing to show for it-- very, very bad situation to be in.

 

[MissIntrigued]

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[MissIntrigued]

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[silas2642]

Yes I know that is an option, but I think what I am concerned about is IF , let's say, I get accepted somewhere and they decide to review my records as an applicant that has been offered admission, it will come back to seriously bite me in the butt that I lied about it. You know?

I suppose it is a risk I could take....but I dont know. Im not trying to go to some Ivy League med school, and I suppose LizzyM works for a school that might do that but I recall her saying once that she has also suggested people with insititutional action for interviews.

I don't know. This is an incident that is not representative of me as a whole at all. It was a very long time ago and since I can speak blutnly here, I think anyone who takes one incident like this from so long ago and dismisses every other accomplishment the person has made is an idiot. But perhaps there are many judgemental people out there.

I dont know. Easiest thing to do would be to just be honest and try to explain myself, but it would be dissapointing to think someone would overlook me just for this.

Well, part of being a physician is taking responsible for your actions-- you violated the honor code of your school, egregiously, I might add, and you paid the consequences. You're now at a disadvantage for applying to medical schools. No matter what, you're going to have to explain that D+ in whatever class you cheated in somehow-- what are you going to do, lie again? It's not going to take a genius to figure out that something isn't right there. All it's going to take is a phone call to learn about your past history and then you're really smoke.

Look, you have one advantage here compared to everyone else who has committed academic dishonesty and that is time. You have time between you and this incident. I'm not exactly convinced that you have learned from your lesson here, but the fact of the matter is that if you lie on AMCAS, there is definitely a decent shot that you could get caught because one way or another that D+ in your transcript is one big, fat red flag. Adcoms are probably going to want to know why you got that grade unless you've failed other classes before without cheating.

Medicine is about taking responsibility for your actions, right or wrong, good or bad; this is all the way through training and your career. You can't make up anything. If you say you did something, your attending has to be able to trust that you did it or else you're worthless. The entire system is based on trust, so you may as well start now with the admissions committees.

 

[Isoprop]

Also, keep in mind that they cannot review your records without your written approval.

Not true. You're probably thinking of the FERPA, which prohibits schools from disclosing a student's academic record without the student's approval. But...

FERPA allows schools to disclose those records, without consent, to the following parties or under the following conditions (34 CFR § 99.31):

• School officials with legitimate educational interest;
• Other schools to which a student is transferring;
• Specified officials for audit or evaluation purposes;
• Appropriate parties in connection with financial aid to a student;
• Organizations conducting certain studies for or on behalf of the school;
• Accrediting organizations;
• To comply with a judicial order or lawfully issued subpoena;
• Appropriate officials in cases of health and safety emergencies; and
• State and local authorities, within a juvenile justice system, pursuant to specific State law.

source - http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html

 

[LizzyM]

Here's how I'd put it, short & sweet:


In my second year of college, in a time crunch, I asked a friend to write a 3 page essay for a/an___ class. When the professor discovered that this was not my own work, she/he reported me to the Honor Board. I was placed on academic probation and received a D- in the class. I learned a hard lesson from this incident and never again let a time crunch cloud my judgment.


Of course, you wouldn't want to use these exact words, would you??😳

 

[WaterBird]

It sounds like this is of the scale that it should be in the AMCAS academic violation box, and not in your PS. Your PS is your time to sell yourself. In the academic violation box, you will have 1300ish characters to explain the violation.

I remember, but cannot find, a post where LizzyM said that at her school, a separate violations committee reviews those apps. Each app gets tossed or passed on at that point. If it gets through that gateway, it is treated the same as any other app after that point. Your violation was long enough ago that I would think that you have a good chance of making it through the gate, particularly if your application is otherwise strong and you do a good job of explaining your violation (not justifying it, but showing how you've grown etc).

However, some people may throw your app out, so you should apply to a few extra schools. I would rather a few schools throw out my app at the beginning of the process than spend a lot of money travelling around to places that might freak out when they receive your whole academic record later in the process (which could be both expensive, and, depending on the timing, happen after you'd withdrawn from other schools, leaving you in the lurch).

If you don't disclose, you will be an anxious mess every step of the way. Or at least I would. 😛

Ha ha, I feel ridiculous citing LizzyM right after she posted, but my internet is slow and I didn't see her post before I wrote mine.

 

[MissIntrigued]

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[MissIntrigued]

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[ChairmanMao]

Cheers for the post LizzyM ;-)

No I wouldn't use those words of course. I actually thought they would want more detail than that, no? I keep hearing they want to hear what I leanred from it, but I am finding it really hard to fit a description of what happened, the aftermath, and what I gained as a result into that small paragraph. Argh!

As a person on a adcommittee..... tell me honestly, let's say you have a decent applicant, GPA is nothing to scream about, but MCAT and work/healthcare experience and LOR's are absolutely stellar, which is my case.....do you look me over because of a mistake I made a decade ago?

Probably won't hurt you as much as badly as if it happened 2 or 3 years ago and if you're still in school. Now that you've graduated and had a few years to think things through and work in a healthcare setting, I don't think that your app is going to get tossed solely because of this (you may get rejected because of a low GPA or MCAT, but you're not going to get rejected just because of this).

I'd suggest a paragraph, 5-8 sentences, explaning what happened, how it happened, what punishment you went through, and what you learned from it. Explain to them that you lacked proper judgement at that time and that you acquired the experience of judgement and integrity from the experience. Explain to them that this was a wake up call and that you learned the value of ethics and moral from this experience and from your subsequent job as a nurse.

 

[LizzyM]

It has been awhile since I was on the subcommittee that looks over instituional actions. We looked at each one without regard to MCAT, gpa, ECs. The only question were: what was the IA? would we want a person who did this at our medical school?

Stealing personal property from other student? No.


Getting caught with a can of beer in a dorm room? OK

and so forth.

Those that are not fatal errors get passed along to the regular committee to review (grades & scores, PS and ECs) and recommend interview or no interview.

 

[WaterBird]

Yes I know that is an option, but I think what I am concerned about is IF , let's say, I get accepted somewhere and they decide to review my records as an applicant that has been offered admission, it will come back to seriously bite me in the butt that I lied about it. You know? I suppose it is a risk I could take....but I dont know. Im not trying to go to some Ivy League med school, and I suppose LizzyM works for a school that might do that but I recall her saying once that she has also suggested people with insititutional action for interviews.

With all due respect, I am not asking whether or not to include this, i am asking HOW to address it succinctly. I have already decided I am including it in the AMCAS app,
Sorry for the rant, but just keep getting posts telling me the ethical virtue of disclosing my IA, and that isn't the debate here, I AM disclosing it Im just trying to find the best and most succint way of disclosing it. Ya know?

I think the first quote gave the impression to someone who read the thread quickly that you were still weighing your options. Not very seriously, but because some people were giving you the advice not to, I thought it might not be worthless to encourage you to do what it seemed like you were planning to and not listen to the bad advice. I apologize if I came across as scolding (I don't think this was directed at me, but thought I'd throw that out there just in case 🙂)

You seem to want a really clear cut answer, which no one can give you. My impression based on a friend in a similar situation is that it makes the application process even more hit or miss (which is consistent with LizzyM's description of the way they deal with it).

As to getting the word limit down - how about writing a few different versions and seeing what always comes in? (like try to get a consensus draft). Also, keep the language clear and simple - too many adjectives will push you over the word limit and sound less authentic. Nouns, verbs, emphasis on the ten years ago.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I think you want to follow LizzyM's short and sweet model. They are not interested in hearing excuses, and it's best to convey that you understand there were no excuses and have learned from the mistake.

 

[student1799]

If you feel the need to go beyond the space AMCAS provides, you can email all your schools a supplemental essay about the incident. I didn't have honor code issues, but I did have compelling family circumstances to explain my low college GPA, and there was just not enough room on AMCAS to explain this properly without it taking over my whole PS. So I emailed the schools an extra essay, along with a very brief email explaining what I was sending. All the schools accepted the extra essays, even those without secondaries, and I believe this really helped my applications. (I got 8 interviews in all, despite the low GPA.)

The one caution I would raise is that, as some other posters have said, writing a lot about this incident runs the risk of making it seem more significant than it really should be. Therefore, you'll have to use your judgment as to whether to take this approach, as well as how much to write. In your shoes, I might do it, but I'd limit myself to only a couple of tightly written paragraphs--in other words, more than the bare-bones AMCAS allotment, but not a PhD dissertation. And I agree with the other posters: keep the self-flagellation to a minimum.

Good luck.

 

[escesc]

To the OP, were you told that it is going to be in your school's records that you cheated?

 

[drizzt3117]

I would definitely report it on AMCAS but wouldn't really put too much detail. I think LizzyM's answer is pretty good with maybe a little more elaboration. I wouldn't talk about it in my PS.

 

[MissIntrigued]

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[atomi]

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[146233]

Quick follow-up:

Ok, so, Its been decided Im writing about my institutional action (see above) but I have a related inquiry...

Should I request that my committee letter from the health advisor address it as well? (eg- if they feel that I am currently a mature, responsible and seemingly honest individual, or some such similiar wording).

Im trying to discern whether its well enough alone that I address it in my one paragraph on AMCAS, but Im wondering if it is necessary or even favorably taken if the health advisor (in conjunction with speaking to my letter writers/reading my recc letters) also support my proclamation that I am not the same person I was many moons ago and have since proven myself as a dedicated healthcare professional.

Thoughts? LizzyM? others? 🙂

I'm relatively new to admissions and have never been on a subcommittee to review IA's, so take that for what it's worth. I'd try to minimize the number of places this item appears in your application.

The committee letter will likely be the first [possibly only] LOR a committee member reviews. At my institution, LORs are not included in the IA review process, so the only thing this would do here is bring the full committee's attention to it.

 

[MissIntrigued]

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[LizzyM]

The health advisor will obviously become aware of this, and may include it anyway right? I would hope they do not include anything about me in a negative manner as they are supposed to be helping me....but I wonder if it would serve me beneficcially to have them include that they believe I have grown as a result of this incident, or just to ignore it altogether on their letter? Either way the medical school will see it on the AMCAS so its brought to their attention one way or another.

What the health advisor puts in the letter is not up to you. Most of these letters use a formula or template that is idiosincratic by school. Some schools will state that the student has had no violations of the Honor Code. I've never seen one that says that the student has had a violation but I don't know if it is that those students don't apply, don't use the committee letter, or if the letter just doesn't mention it ("if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all") and we just don't notice the absence of that stock phrase.

 

[atomi]

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[235009]

you have no say in what your premed committee does or does not write in your letter. if the administrator was able to look this up and find it quickly i'm sure your premed committee might also look to see if you have any disciplinary action. this is actually one of the reasons why med schools strongly prefer you use the committee if your school has one.

i think you should disclose this on your application...especially if you are going through your school's committee. if your committee letter mentions it and you don't you can be certain that your application will head straight to the shredder at every single school you apply to.

there will definitely be schools where your application will be automatically trashed no matter what you write but it won't be every school.

also stay away from schools that get way too many applications (like GW, Georgetown and BU) because they're looking for any excuse to eliminate people from their pool. (not to mention GW is on probation and BU adcoms aren't competent enough to keep murderers out of their school)

 

[ChairmanMao]

I find it almost impossible to believe that your undergrad records would be scrutinized after you have been admitted to med school. This is borderline paranoia, but just my personal opinion. Good luck to you.

It won't be scrutinized as carefully after you get accepted, but there's always the off chance that the admissions committee will audit each students records and if this incident is discovered and the OP didn't disclose it on her application, she might actually get kicked out of medical school. I'm not saying that this is a common occurence, but there have been incidents where medical students have been kicked out of their programs when it was discovered that they falsified their application (such as listing activities that they didn't participate in or willfully falsifying academic or criminal convictions). In the OP's case, if she does have this on her school record, and she didn't disclose it, then I think it's grounds for expulsion if a medical school discovers this.

The bottom line is don't make things up on your application and don't try to get out of listing criminal or academic records. It's better to disclose it and not get in than getting in and getting kicked out before you get your degree. These might come back to bite you when you least expect it to.

 

[MissIntrigued]

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[BBender716]

The person writing my pre=med committee letter has no way of finding out about my incident unless I tell her or she sees it on my application, as she has asked me for a copy of it after submission. She's never once asked me about it. Truth be told, I kind of think she's an idiot but Im stuck with her so what can you do. Ive seen the kind of letters she writes and my 5 year old nephew could write a better one in his sleep.

Alas....anyway....I called up the advisor at my undergrad (who i really wish would write me my letter but said I've been out of school too long for them to write it for me s i have to go with my post bacc place) and she says since i have letters of recc from undergrad and its been so long ago she wouldnt worry about it too much, as Ive accomplished alot in healthcare since then, way more than my 22 year old counterparts just out of undergrad by loads and loads, so let's hope there are SOME reasonable people on these committees that remember that they werent' the same person just out of high school as they were when they were nearly bloody well 30!

Sigh.

I've read the thread, and this will be easier said than done.

Simply, you need to be honest, express regret, describe how you've grown, and make it succinct. Put this in the explanation box. Do not mention it in your PS. Do not mention it in secondaries. Do not mention it to any LOR/academic committees. Do not bring it up again to ANYONE or write it on any application materials (save the AMCAS explanation section) unless they bring it up first or it is explicitly asked for.

Let it lie and know that you have done all you can. Relax to the level of nervousness of normal applicants. You can rest assured that you have done all that you could have. That's all that you can do. Can't worry about the things you have no control over. You'll be fine! Keep your head up and fight fight fight for that acceptance! You can do it!

 

[WW2010]

LizzyM and all,

Much appreciate it if anyone could give me your insight and suggestions.

During my first year at college, I was involved in a practical joke on a friend's Facebook page poking fun at his competitive nature and tendency to seek favor with professors (named the professor) in our pre-medical courses. At the time, I had no idea that such a joke would affect anyone else, but soon realized otherwise. A professor of ours saw it, took offense. As soon as I realized that this had become an issue, I came forward to admit that I was the one responsible, more than willingly accepted the university's punishment, and apologized to all those involved. I felt incredibly terrible since I did not intend for my actions to cause such an adverse effect. The professor still gave me a A grade for his class but reported to the school and the school gave me a probation warning and it is on my record.

I just completed my junior and decide to apply for 2010 MD/PhD now. I have relatively competitive mcat, gpa, research publications and meaningful activities. When approach the application, the IA box before me suddenly let me feel very uncomfortable. I will definitely check it but don't know how much it could ruin my academic plan...

Thanks.