Instrument-Throwing at Staff

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

SomeDoc

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Messages
991
Reaction score
100
So far I've heard of two instances where instruments have been thrown by physicians at staff during surgery. What gives? Do these individuals not get disciplined in some way by administration?

Members don't see this ad.
 
So far I've heard of two instances where instruments have been thrown by physicians at staff during surgery. What gives? Do these individuals not get disciplined in some way by administration?

Illl just say: This is barely an issue.. If you throw a scalpel at some one and they get stabbed.. You loose your license.. Thats it, end of story..
 
Members don't see this ad :)
throwing things randomly at the wall is one thing, & i've seen it happen... but throwing AT other people? they'd get their privileges revoked at a minimum.
 
throwing things randomly at the wall is one thing, & i've seen it happen... but throwing AT other people? they'd get their privileges revoked at a minimum.

There was rumor of it happening at my school and I was prepared mentally for it before surgery. I had told myself I was going to scrub out and call the police if something was thrown at me or hit me and let them sort it out.

This kind of behavior is no longer acceptable.
 
Never happened at my med school or now, during residency. The closest would be when an attending tosses something onto the ground - never thrown at someone.

But I did have an unpleasant experience happen to me during an MS-IV away rotation. I don't want to give too many details, but let's just say a scalpel went flying...at me... :(
 
I was talking with the director of surgical services a few months ago (she is a nurse), and she told us about a surgeon many years ago she worked with. He would randomly throw surgical tools, including the scalpel, on the floor and across the room. He would then scream at the nurse to get him another sterile tool because he needed it. She told me that she finally decided to stand behind a wall during the surgery and when the surgeon would scream to her to get him tools, she would respond with "doctor, you obviously didn't need to the tool that badly or you would not have thrown it on the floor... and I will stand behind this wall until you are down throwing tools..."

She said that his privleges to that hospital were finally revoked a few years later.
 
There was rumor of it happening at my school and I was prepared mentally for it before surgery. I had told myself I was going to scrub out and call the police if something was thrown at me or hit me and let them sort it out.

Not much of a team player...
 
So far I've heard of two instances where instruments have been thrown by physicians at staff during surgery. What gives? Do these individuals not get disciplined in some way by administration?

As others have suggested, it is more likely that the surgeon launched something across the room at a wall, and the story was magnified into "he threw the scalpel at the nurse".
 
Never happened at my med school or now, during residency. The closest would be when an attending tosses something onto the ground - never thrown at someone.

But I did have an unpleasant experience happen to me during an MS-IV away rotation. I don't want to give too many details, but let's just say a scalpel went flying...at me... :(

Was it out of anger or frustration, or both? Or was it instead done as a joke turned deadly wrong?
 
Not scalpels, but I've personally witnessed an attending throwing things at an intern. It was on the floor and it was random objects within the room. He would ask a question and then throw whatever he could get his hands on at the intern until he got the answer right.

This was done in front of me, other med students, and residents.

He wasn't hurling objects and there didn't seem to be any intent to injure the resident (but he was remarkably accurate and would hit the intern with every object he threw), but objects were thrown just the same. Think along the lines of rolls of Kerlex or tape.

Should it have been reported? Maybe. But it honestly never entered my mind. The attending is a known ass and this was pretty much par for the course. The abuse he heaped upon med students was more subtle (walk away while you're talking, ignoring questions - hell, ignoring your presence altogether!, refusing to let you in the OR while he's operating, etc), but again, I never thought to report it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
What would be the repercussions if you layed out the surgeon who threw something at you?
 
This thread reminded me of a new article I read a while back about how a surgeon losing his head caused a patient to lose his head.

Link.

Good thing guys have two brains.:)
 
What would be the repercussions if you layed out the surgeon who threw something at you?

This would be a bad idea. Street justice doesn't go over big with professionals. If both you and the attending committed such assaults (throwing/punching), I have no doubt the attending's story would prevail and you would be out on the street. The dude is throwing stuff at you precisely because he knows you cannot do a thing to him without serious repercussions.
Now if just the attending threw something, then the witnesses would be more likely to back you. You may feel it justified to lay out someone who throws something at you, but the world, and the law, doesn't back this position.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
So say the instrument thrown was not a scalpel, but as someone posted earlier, something along the lines of tape. I say this because the outcome in terms of the lack or presence of physical harm is irrelevant in such a case, rather the intent and action on part of the alleged perpetrator is what's salient. I wonder if one can technically press charges for such behavior. That being said, from a practical perspective, I don't count on such reports happening, where physical harm is absent, simply due to the dynamics of balance of power.
 
The dude is throwing stuff at you precisely because he knows you cannot do a thing to him without serious repercussions.

New LCME/ACGME Rule: Just settle it in the Octagon!
ufc_500big.jpg
 
I've seen surgeons throw instruments on the floor (usually to get them out of the way if they were contaminated.)

What would be the repercussions if you layed out the surgeon who threw something at you?

I would think it would be hard to maintain a sterile field in this situation :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This thread reminded me of a new article I read a while back about how a surgeon losing his head caused a patient to lose his head.

Link.
If I were the patient, I'd just return the favor on that one. There'd be no other solution.
 
As others have suggested, it is more likely that the surgeon launched something across the room at a wall, and the story was magnified into "he threw the scalpel at the nurse".

Doesn't exactly make it OK. We tell little kids not to run with scissors because it's dangerous. Adults should know not to throw sharp objects because they might possibly hit and injure someone. Adults should have better control of their temper. Throwing's for 3 year olds.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
One of our surgeons came in one night to place a chest tube; the tray brought up by the supervisor had been mislabeled by CS. When he opened it and realized it was the wrong tray, he yelled a few choice words, hurling it across the room against the wall, where the sharps etc. landed all over the visitor's cot.

Scared the patient half to death. I was speechless, but not the patient's daughter (who witnessed the entire incident). I'm not entirely sure what official "sanctions" (if any) he suffered, however after watching the daughter tear him a new one, I kinda felt sorry for him.



Well, almost. :laugh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If you did it right away, without waiting, you could bill it as self defense.

Nah -- self defense doesn't really work with thrown weapons -- the second the scalpel (or other item likely to cause bodily harm) is no longer in his hands you lose the defense. You have to be in imminent fear and have no ability to retreat to assert the defense. So once he threw a scalpel and missed, you are obligated to get out of there -- you don't get a free shot. So you'd really have to hit him as he was throwing or pretty clearly about to throw to have a tenable claim of self defense. But if you hit him before he did anything you'd not get much witness backing -- the only thing everybody would have seen was a sucker punch. So you are SOL. Best to just wear kevlar under your scrubs and deal with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Nah -- self defense doesn't really work with thrown weapons -- the second the scalpel (or other item likely to cause bodily harm) is no longer in his hands you lose the defense. You have to be in imminent fear and have no ability to retreat to assert the defense. So once he threw a scalpel and missed, you are obligated to get out of there -- you don't get a free shot. So you'd really have to hit him as he was throwing or pretty clearly about to throw to have a tenable claim of self defense. But if you hit him before he did anything you'd not get much witness backing -- the only thing everybody would have seen was a sucker punch. So you are SOL. Best to just wear kevlar under your scrubs and deal with it.

Hahaha the image of this has me LOLing. I can just imagine the scene. An operation like any other and all the sudden the sleepy MSIII perks up, reaches over the unconscious patient and punches the surgeon without any apparent provocation. The OR is definitely the last place you would expect to see a sucker punch.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You're all way too soft. You don't realize how easy we have it compared to before. My dad who trained back in the day tells me all sorts of stories of surgeons throwing stuff in the OR, berating residents and med students on an hourly basis, keeping them in the hospital for days at a time, etc with absolutely no reprecussions. You guys get upset because a surgeon threw something in the OR or was mean to you? Please. You wouldn't last a week in residency back then.
 
Surgeons throwing things is just silly; and I'm glad to say I have never personally witnessed it during medical school, surgery training, or ophthalmology training. But hearing about it upsets me like you wouldn't believe. A surgeon should have control over his or her mind, because it's the mind that controls the hand. To be that out of control (i.e. like a toddler) is pathetic and it shouldn't be tolerated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Throwing's for 3 year olds.


lol..you would think right?

in that case, handle it like you're a 3 year old and follow them to their car that night...heeheehee
 
You're all way too soft. You don't realize how easy we have it compared to before. My dad who trained back in the day tells me all sorts of stories of surgeons throwing stuff in the OR, berating residents and med students on an hourly basis, keeping them in the hospital for days at a time, etc with absolutely no reprecussions. You guys get upset because a surgeon threw something in the OR or was mean to you? Please. You wouldn't last a week in residency back then.

Yeah yeah. And he walked 12 miles to work... in the snow... uphill both ways. And had to forge his own scalpels that would be thrown at him if they didn't meet the attending's standards. Wow. I guess he wins. Who wants to be in the residency that your dad was in? How does having things thrown at you make you a better surgeon? There is no possible benefit to having things thrown at you.

I have been in life multiple life or death situations. Those who get things done don't throw things and lose their temper. If you can't keep it together in mundane conditions like an OR or on the floor, I don't want to be around you when the crap really hits the fan. I have no respect for people who act this way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
You're all way too soft. You don't realize how easy we have it compared to before. My dad who trained back in the day tells me all sorts of stories of surgeons throwing stuff in the OR, berating residents and med students on an hourly basis, keeping them in the hospital for days at a time, etc with absolutely no reprecussions. You guys get upset because a surgeon threw something in the OR or was mean to you? Please. You wouldn't last a week in residency back then.

I bet you we could last a week, but that is irrelevant considering it was wrong then and still wrong today. Misterioso, meet Mr. Fallacy :). He would like to introduce you to the concept of "just because something happened and was acceptable in the past does not mean it is right".
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This is not related to medicine, however, when I was in high school I was involved with performance arts, and we had this director who was incredibly unpredictable. He would blow up at students who couldn't perform to his standards, or if something was wrong with the set design. During my senior year he began throwing objects at us including HAMMERS. I remember sitting with some other students watching a set being built and the director became enraged over us talking and threw a screw driver toward us. Needless to say, toward the end of my senior year he had announced that he was "pursuing higher education and thus it would be his last year teaching and directing" (I am betting his ass was being canned).
 
I bet you we could last a week, but that is irrelevant considering it was wrong then and still wrong today. Misterioso, meet Mr. Fallacy :). He would like to introduce you to the concept of "just because something happened and was acceptable in the past does not mean it is right".

Don't sweat Misterioso. He's got this whole schtick of being in love with old school medicine and infuriating people by pining for the days when doctors were all neatly dressed white men and idolizing some surgeon because he's so cool he refuses to acknowledge residents.
 
I'm pretty shocked to hear that these things are actually happening.
So far, all the faculty at my school has been nothing but professional
with a collegiate attitude towards myself and the others students
and faculty. Do these this kind of things actually happen more than
like once a year?
 
Its just grown ups acting like little babies.

Interesting enough, I never heard of an Internist, Anesthesiologist, Dermatologist, etc act in such a way....

Throwing something on the ground or out of the way because its contaminated is fine and should be done, throwing something at a wall or at someone is acting like a baby.

If I ever was in the OR and saw that, I would point and laugh at the idiot...whats he gonna do, fire me? Yeah right, they'd be the one in trouble....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'm pretty shocked to hear that these things are actually happening.
So far, all the faculty at my school has been nothing but professional
with a collegiate attitude towards myself and the others students
and faculty. Do these this kind of things actually happen more than
like once a year?

I'm quite sure it's more rare than it's made out to be. Tired's probably got one side pretty well explained: a surgeon hurriedly "tosses" a hemostat onto a mayo tray next to a scrub tech and the next thing you know the scrub tech's got a story about how Dr. Javelin whipped a knife at him.

The other cases are probably sloppiness or carelessness, bumping an instrument onto the floor, dropping it to avoid grabbing/getting handed the wrong instrument again, etc. Again - blown out of proportion. The real cases, therefore, or surgeons actually throwing instruments wildly are probably pretty rare, especially these days where every physician knows (to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars in malpractice premiums) how close he is to a lawsuit at any given time. But I'm sure it happens.
 
Nah -- self defense doesn't really work with thrown weapons -- the second the scalpel (or other item likely to cause bodily harm) is no longer in his hands you lose the defense. You have to be in imminent fear and have no ability to retreat to assert the defense. So once he threw a scalpel and missed, you are obligated to get out of there -- you don't get a free shot. So you'd really have to hit him as he was throwing or pretty clearly about to throw to have a tenable claim of self defense. But if you hit him before he did anything you'd not get much witness backing -- the only thing everybody would have seen was a sucker punch. So you are SOL. Best to just wear kevlar under your scrubs and deal with it.

Doesn't this change in states that have a "castle doctrine". My understanding is that an individual is legally able to stand his/her ground and no longer needs to seek retreat when faced with harm. Now the individual is at liberty to defend themselves? Law2Doc how far off base am I?
 
Doesn't this change in states that have a "castle doctrine". My understanding is that an individual is legally able to stand his/her ground and no longer needs to seek retreat when faced with harm. Now the individual is at liberty to defend themselves? Law2Doc how far off base am I?


I love the castle doctrine... There is a pistol next to my bed and in my truck at all times. I just hope someone tries to jack with me!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I love the castle doctrine... There is a pistol next to my bed and in my truck at all times. I just hope someone tries to jack with me!

I wouldn't be so cavalier if I were you, accidents can happen.

I was accidentally shot by my Dad when I was coming home late one night in high school

...and then again when I was walking out of the hospital two days later. The third time I was able to land an elbow on the bridge of his nose before he could get a shot off. Maybe I just really look like a burglar....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I wouldn't be so cavalier if I were you, accidents can happen.

I was accidentally shot by my Dad when I was coming home late one night in high school

...and then again when I was walking out of the hospital two days later. The third time I was able to land an elbow on the bridge of his nose before he could get a shot off. Maybe I just really look like a burglar....


That's crazy now... maybe your dad doesn't like you! :D
 
I love the castle doctrine... There is a pistol next to my bed and in my truck at all times. I just hope someone tries to jack with me!

About 6 years ago a guy (who had a concealed carry weapon/CCW permit) was going down the highway, when he started having some problems with a crazy guy road rager. He had no idea how he had upset the crazy guy. He pulled off the road onto the soft shoulder to let the crazy guy go by. The crazy guy pulled off onto the soft shoulder ahead of him, then backed his car up down the highway until he was near the CCW guy. Crazy guy got out of his car, started beating on CCW's car. CCW was very afraid, and pulled his coat back so that crazy guy could see he was armed with a gun - hoping to scare him off. Crazy guy started daring him to shoot. Crazy guy went and got in his car. CCW guy was scared to leave, afraid crazy guy would follow him until he got home. Little did CCW guy know crazy guy was calling the police, and telling the police that some guy was following him on the highway and threatening him with a gun. The police showed up shortly, and arrested CCW guy for threatening crazy guy with the gun. CCW guy did nothing on purpose to cause problems, and was only concerned with defending himself - yet ended up getting arrested.

The legal endings to a fight are sometimes ironic.
 
In my rotations I never saw anything like this - never saw a medical doctor go postal like that. If any of my mentors got all angry I would laugh at the time. Largely because in all of my days I have only seen a couple of MD's that I would think could throw down in a serious sort of way. One was a neurosurgeon I saw compete in an AWA sanctioned powerlifting contest - dude squatted just shy of 1000 LBS circa 2000 approximately. Pretty impressive.I have seen some DO's I thought could throw down. One was a small town doctor who was bit older but was an ex-green beret - big dude though. Got into a fight with a dentist who was an ex-paratrooper behind the DairyCreme over which branch of the special forces was better - I mean they really went at it.

But if they threw a scalpel I think something ought to be done to negatively reinforce that. They need to learn a lesson. Scalpels and some trocars could ge quite nasty weapons even in the hands of someone rather frail.
 
LOL I had no idea this thread existed. I googled "threw scalpel at OR staff" hoping to find a meme or picture to create one. The interesting thing is that I know who did this too as I also go to that school (not the one in my user name). His punishment for the incident was priceless. They put him in charge of a branch of the Medical School. This guy is an unbelievable hot head. Very unstable. From what the physicians tell me who were here for it, this was not the first time something of this magnitude happened in the OR with this individual which suggests that perhaps (depending on who you are) there may not be any punishment for 1st offenders. All I am going to say is this person was more immune than any other surgeons in the hospital for reasons I will not mention because it would certainly give it away. I failed one shelf (the first one) and my punishment is that I have to call him every week and get berated about how I am "a worthless excuse for a human being" "the biggest f*&&* idiot he has ever met". He told me one time that he wishes he saw me in Iraq (he is a former Colonel) so he could have saved all of my future patients from the misery and ultimate demise that having me as a doctor will bring upon them. After you hear his little rants enough times, you really get desensitized to it, especially after finding out from his own colleagues all the stuff he used to do. So when he says all of these things, what is he really doing? Talking about himself of course. This is classic displacement. He also meets DSM-V criteria for Narcissistic personality disorder with features of others, so we will call it mixed.

Anyways, thanks everyone. And viostorm, he is gone now. I hope that you did not experience anything like this from other surgeons. I doubt that you would . He is one in a million and in a bad way. He would totally do something like what the link references that JERI posted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
LOL I had no idea this thread existed. I googled "threw scalpel at OR staff" hoping to find a meme or picture to create one. The interesting thing is that I know who did this too as I also go to that school (not the one in my user name). His punishment for the incident was priceless. They put him in charge of a branch of the Medical School. This guy is an unbelievable hot head. Very unstable. From what the physicians tell me who were here for it, this was not the first time something of this magnitude happened in the OR with this individual which suggests that perhaps (depending on who you are) there may not be any punishment for 1st offenders. All I am going to say is this person was more immune than any other surgeons in the hospital for reasons I will not mention because it would certainly give it away. I failed one shelf (the first one) and my punishment is that I have to call him every week and get berated about how I am "a worthless excuse for a human being" "the biggest f*&&* idiot he has ever met". He told me one time that he wishes he saw me in Iraq (he is a former Colonel) so he could have saved all of my future patients from the misery and ultimate demise that having me as a doctor will bring upon them. After you hear his little rants enough times, you really get desensitized to it, especially after finding out from his own colleagues all the stuff he used to do. So when he says all of these things, what is he really doing? Talking about himself of course. This is classic displacement. He also meets DSM-V criteria for Narcissistic personality disorder with features of others, so we will call it mixed.

Anyways, thanks everyone. And viostorm, he is gone now. I hope that you did not experience anything like this from other surgeons. I doubt that you would . He is one in a million and in a bad way. He would totally do something like what the link references that JERI posted.
That is honestly hilarious
 
We had a cardiothoracic surgeon as my med school who was notorious for throwing hissy fits in the OR. He would yell at and berate all of the OR staff/residents/med students, curse at everyone, and throw scalpels and scissors down in close proximity to our hands (to the point we'd all have to jump back to pull our hands out of the way unless we were actively clamping arteries and such). He became a little nicer to the med students once all of his assistants and OR nurses up and quit one day and he had no one to hand him instruments or help clamp things.
 
About 6 years ago a guy (who had a concealed carry weapon/CCW permit) was going down the highway, when he started having some problems with a crazy guy road rager. He had no idea how he had upset the crazy guy. He pulled off the road onto the soft shoulder to let the crazy guy go by. The crazy guy pulled off onto the soft shoulder ahead of him, then backed his car up down the highway until he was near the CCW guy. Crazy guy got out of his car, started beating on CCW's car. CCW was very afraid, and pulled his coat back so that crazy guy could see he was armed with a gun - hoping to scare him off. Crazy guy started daring him to shoot. Crazy guy went and got in his car. CCW guy was scared to leave, afraid crazy guy would follow him until he got home. Little did CCW guy know crazy guy was calling the police, and telling the police that some guy was following him on the highway and threatening him with a gun. The police showed up shortly, and arrested CCW guy for threatening crazy guy with the gun. CCW guy did nothing on purpose to cause problems, and was only concerned with defending himself - yet ended up getting arrested.

The legal endings to a fight are sometimes ironic.

another reason why, they tell you, if you bring out your weapon, you better be prepared to shoot

and when you shoot, shoot to kill
because it won't look like you were really afraid for your life and needed to response with deadly force unless you respond with deadly force

also, if they're dead they can't contradict your story or tell wild lies a la the above story
 
Top