Interested in Matching to Neurosurgery, Research with a Pathologist?

[Beta Cell]

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I'm currently an M0, interested in doing some funded research this summer before the M1 school year begins. I managed to find an MD/PhD doing bench research (should I do clinical?) who has an appointment to the neurosurgery department. Her research seems interesting, probably not exactly what I'd like to continue for 4 years, but honestly the only person really interested in having me join their group within the timeframe I would need to submit a proposal and be approved for the summer stipend.

I'm fairly new to the residency match process, but I do know that publications in the field you to which you would like to match are important. Essentially, is bench research with a pathologist doing neurosurgery research going to help me as much as finding a bona fide neurosurgeon doing clinical and/or bench research?

Thanks!

 

[mmmcdowe]

I'm currently an M0, interested in doing some funded research this summer before the M1 school year begins. I managed to find an MD/PhD doing bench research (should I do clinical?) who has an appointment to the neurosurgery department. Her research seems interesting, probably not exactly what I'd like to continue for 4 years, but honestly the only person really interested in having me join their group within the timeframe I would need to submit a proposal and be approved for the summer stipend.

I'm fairly new to the residency match process, but I do know that publications in the field you to which you would like to match are important. Essentially, is bench research with a pathologist doing neurosurgery research going to help me as much as finding a bona fide neurosurgeon doing clinical and/or bench research?

Thanks!

They will help similarly, though clinical research tends to be better because it often has a shorter turn around for pubs (meaning you probably won't get published this summer). Any kind of research is better than none, so if you really want to spend your last summer in a lab I'd take it. There's really no rush though, plenty of time in medical school to do research. Consider enjoying this summer and doing a year off for research instead.

 

[Beta Cell]

They will help similarly, though clinical research tends to be better because it often has a shorter turn around for pubs (meaning you probably won't get published this summer). Any kind of research is better than none, so if you really want to spend your last summer in a lab I'd take it. There's really no rush though, plenty of time in medical school to do research. Consider enjoying this summer and doing a year off for research instead.

Is that the general trend in neurosurgery now? I've heard of a lot of people doing the 1 year off thing.

 

[theshellyb]

Is that the general trend in neurosurgery now? I've heard of a lot of people doing the 1 year off thing.

Based on my conversations with students throughout the interview process, this seems to be a trend for med students in general, not just future neurosurgeons. Being able to take a research year was something that was important to me when I was searching for schools, and when I asked students at the schools I interviewed at, the consensus was that between 40%-60% of students in any given class take a year off, whether to do research, do an MPH, do a master's, etc.

 

[Beta Cell]

Based on my conversations with students throughout the interview process, this seems to be a trend for med students in general, not just future neurosurgeons. Being able to take a research year was something that was important to me when I was searching for schools, and when I asked students at the schools I interviewed at, the consensus was that between 40%-60% of students in any given class take a year off, whether to do research, do an MPH, do a master's, etc.

Yeah, that's the gist of what I got out of it too. One of my interviewers at Mt. Sinai told me point blank that a lot of people do it to get into more competitive specialties or better residency spots in general. She said you probably wouldn't need to do one for pathology (she was a pathologist), but it might be advisable for neurosurgery.

 

[Lokhtar]

Based on my conversations with students throughout the interview process, this seems to be a trend for med students in general, not just future neurosurgeons. Being able to take a research year was something that was important to me when I was searching for schools, and when I asked students at the schools I interviewed at, the consensus was that between 40%-60% of students in any given class take a year off, whether to do research, do an MPH, do a master's, etc.

That seems extremely high.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

That seems extremely high.

It's absurdly high.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

The more people that wish to take a year off, the better for those who are participating in the match straight out, and the worse it is for those who delay. But hey, I'm down with that 😎 👍

Now, you're a year out of clinical work. The applicant pool is getting larger and larger by the year. Sure, if you took a year off you probably do stand at a greater chance to match at some hot shot program in some hot shot specialty. However, WHAT IF you don't match. Then, you HAVE to scramble into something (hopefully at worst an intern year, and not FP), or delay another year. That makes it 2 years out of clinical medicine if you do more research/MPH, etc.

That doesn't even include the loss of a year's worth of attending salary.

 

[lrkoehle]

It's absurdly high.

It's beyond absurdly high. At my school, only like 1/3 even do summer research. If you're going to take a year off to do research, then research better be really damn important to you. If it's important to you, then you should be doing it the summer before MS-II.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

It's beyond absurdly high. At my school, only like 1/3 even do summer research. If you're going to take a year off to do research, then research better be really damn important to you. If it's important to you, then you should be doing it the summer before MS-II.

I know those who did it summer before MSII.

I was one of those.

However, at another school, I have friends who did it summer before MSII and are also currently taking a year off.... talk about brave. I hope they can afford those loans when they start kicking in.... most likely, deferring loans w/o much income during that research year.

 

[Lokhtar]

So let's say you want to match into something like Neurology or Oncology (or rather an IM program strong enough to allow you to match into Oncology) - obviously do the best you can on boards and rotations is always good advice, and also incorporating some research when you can should always help. But assuming you go to an 'average' type school (say ranked 50-60), is it necessary to take a year off to do research to match at the places? My goal is to stay in academia, doing a lot of teaching (I love that environment), as well as doing some clinical (rather than bench) research.

 

[lrkoehle]

I know those who did it summer before MSII.

I was one of those.

However, at another school, I have friends who did it summer before MSII and are also currently taking a year off.... talk about brave. I hope they can afford those loans when they start kicking in.... most likely, deferring loans w/o much income during that research year.

So you did research while preparing for step-I? That's impressive and too scary for me.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

So you did research while preparing for step-I? That's impressive and too scary for me.

Why would you be preparing for Step I the summer before MSII?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

So let's say you want to match into something like Neurology or Oncology (or rather an IM program strong enough to allow you to match into Oncology) - obviously do the best you can on boards and rotations is always good advice, and also incorporating some research when you can should always help. But assuming you go to an 'average' type school (say ranked 50-60), is it necessary to take a year off to do research to match at the places? My goal is to stay in academia, doing a lot of teaching (I love that environment), as well as doing some clinical (rather than bench) research.

I highly doubt you need to take a research year for Neurology or IM.

The folks I know taking a year off are trying for neurosurg, ophthalmology, rad onc, radiology, etc.

 

[theshellyb]

It's absurdly high.

Now that I'm thinking about it, it might have been more like 40-50 PER CLASS that took time off. So in a class of 160, that would be 25%. Does that sound more accurate?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Now that I'm thinking about it, it might have been more like 40-50 PER CLASS that took time off. So in a class of 160, that would be 25%. Does that sound more accurate?

Isn't that still high? I don't know about all that.... just thinking out loud on this one.

 

[lrkoehle]

Why would you be preparing for Step I the summer before MSII?

My bad. For some reason, I read it as you doing research the summer AFTER MS-II...I think this morning's renal final took a toll on my brain. 😛

 

[Lokhtar]

I highly doubt you need to take a research year for Neurology or IM.

The folks I know taking a year off are trying for neurosurg, ophthalmology, rad onc, radiology, etc.

But don't you need match at a top IM Program to do onc?

 

[lrkoehle]

I highly doubt you need to take a research year for Neurology or IM.

The folks I know taking a year off are trying for neurosurg, ophthalmology, rad onc, radiology, etc.

I'm pretty sure you don't NEED to take a year off for any of them, but for the really competitive specialties it may help set you apart a little bit more. The link below has match info from 2009 for each specialty, so you can check out the research stats for the various specialties. I'm interested in ortho, so that the only specialty I looked at, but based on the research stats for that it doesn't seem to be the norm for people to take a year off for that. Check it out for yourself though...

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62400/data/chartingoutcomes.pdf

Now that I'm thinking about it, it might have been more like 40-50 PER CLASS that took time off. So in a class of 160, that would be 25%. Does that sound more accurate?

I don't know enough about all the schools in the country, but at my school its only about 5-10% that are taking time off for research, PhD, MPH, etc. I know other schools like Duke and Mayo have dedicated research time built in to their curriculum, so I would guess those schools don't have a large percentage of students needing even more time off either. Again, I don't know enough about the stats for this sort of thing, maybe someone else has those stats.

 

[theshellyb]

Isn't that still high? I don't know about all that.... just thinking out loud on this one.

Granted, I interviewed at pretty research-intensive schools, so other schools may be different, but a few things I was able to find:

UNC, about a quarter of the class takes a year off: (I know, Wikipedia...)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Carolina_School_of_Medicine#Clinical_Years

Columbia, 20% take a research year and 20% earn an extra degree (I'm guessing there's some overlap between the 2)
http://ps.columbia.edu/education/the-student-body

 

[phantomx87]

Granted, I interviewed at pretty research-intensive schools, so other schools may be different, but a few things I was able to find:

UNC, about a quarter of the class takes a year off: (I know, Wikipedia...)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Carolina_School_of_Medicine#Clinical_Years

Columbia, 20% take a research year and 20% earn an extra degree (I'm guessing there's some overlap between the 2)
http://ps.columbia.edu/education/the-student-body

Figures are WAY high. Even at research-intensive schools. For the most part, the only real reason anyone is going to take a year off for research is if it's going to be funded research (i.e. DD or HH fellowships). The fact of the matter is that 1) it's way too freaking expensive to do that WITHOUT funding (and remember that these are extremely competitive fellowships as a whole with very limited number of spots), and 2) even with competitive specialties, the vast majority of people who do research do it between their MSI and MSII years.

Look up the Charting Outcomes from NRMP (esp. for Derm / Plastics / Neurosurgery). By and large, most people DO NOT take a year off. There is way more than enough time to get good clinical research done during your four years. Just be smart about it.

Also (just my $0.02 here), take this summer and get drunk and get laid. You'll sorely regret not doing so after a month of school.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

But don't you need match at a top IM Program to do onc?

Onc is THAT competitive? Since when?

I was under the impression Cards and GI were the "super competitive" fellowships.

Again, I dont know why people take a year off. Sure, it may "set themselves apart" but at the end you're screwing yourself out of a physician's salary and now with added students every year.... good luck 👍

I know of a lot who took a year off this year, and will go for the 2012 match... they'll be in for a rude awakening, I think...

 

[shaggy alfresco]

Onc is THAT competitive? Since when?

I was under the impression Cards and GI were the "super competitive" fellowships.

Again, I dont know why people take a year off. Sure, it may "set themselves apart" but at the end you're screwing yourself out of a physician's salary and now with added students every year.... good luck 👍

I know of a lot who took a year off this year, and will go for the 2012 match... they'll be in for a rude awakening, I think...

I thought it was still moderately competitive...e.g, you can't match unless you go into a very good university based IM program (not as much as cards, but still).

 

[ACSurgeon]

I thought it was still moderately competitive...e.g, you can't match unless you go into a very good university based IM program (not as much as cards, but still).

People match into cards from community programs every year. Hell, even some IMG's, at ****ty community programs have made their ways into some cards fellowships.

The fact of the matter is, you do NOT have to be at a top IM program to match into anything. Applicants from better IM programs will have an easier time and a better shot, but don't make it seem like only the best of IM programs can open doors for you. Go to a solid program with a good fellowship matching track record, and you'll be fine.

 

[phantomx87]

Worry about medical school first. Get the necessary scores, THEN worry about all the other stuff. Try to avoid cart-horse interpositional syndromes.

 

[cowme]

I'm currently an M0, interested in doing some funded research this summer before the M1 school year begins. I managed to find an MD/PhD doing bench research (should I do clinical?) who has an appointment to the neurosurgery department. Her research seems interesting, probably not exactly what I'd like to continue for 4 years, but honestly the only person really interested in having me join their group within the timeframe I would need to submit a proposal and be approved for the summer stipend.

I'm fairly new to the residency match process, but I do know that publications in the field you to which you would like to match are important. Essentially, is bench research with a pathologist doing neurosurgery research going to help me as much as finding a bona fide neurosurgeon doing clinical and/or bench research?

Thanks!

Do a week of neurosurgery as a med student. Then decide what field you are actually going to apply in.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

People match into cards from community programs every year. Hell, even some IMG's, at ****ty community programs have made their ways into some cards fellowships.

The fact of the matter is, you do NOT have to be at a top IM program to match into anything. Applicants from better IM programs will have an easier time and a better shot, but don't make it seem like only the best of IM programs can open doors for you. Go to a solid program with a good fellowship matching track record, and you'll be fine.

Agreed. There is NO need to take a year off to *clinch* a top 5 IM program for..... Cards, GI, etc.... nontheless... Onc.

There's definitely no reason for Neuro either.... plenty match into it with little or no issues....