Interested in Optometry

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jessjlstar

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Hello!

My undergraduate institution is one of the lucky schools that have a College of Optometry. My mother works under for an optometrist, so I've been around the profession for much of my life. At one point in time, after my obession with dentistry faded, I wanted to pursue optometry; however, after some research, I realized how competitive it is to get in to an OD program, and I distanced myself from optometry.
I decided to drop both my dentistry and optometry dreams and pursue occupational thearpy (which is a field that is very diverse and interesting; I really love it!). But, still, I thought I could ask some questions and see if I should still consider optometry.

1) Would shadowing my mother's employer/soliciting a recommendation letter from him be looked down upon?
2) What is a "competitive" GPA for most programs? Do you know what GPA is considered competitive for Northeastern State University's College of Optometry (which would be my first choice)?
3) How many hours should I shadow and how many settings/optometrists should I shadow?
4) Is Organic Chemistry II a requirement for most optometry schools, or does it typically end at Organic Chemistry I?
5) How satisfied are you with your job? And if you would like to share, are you happy with your income?
6) Was the debt worth it? Were/Are you easily able to pay it off?
7) What is the best and worst thing about the profession? Why?
8) Do optometrists perform surgery (either major or minor)? This is something I'm HIGHLYinterested in.

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It is curious that there are much more women matriculating to optometry. It is pretty disproportionate.
 
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It is curious that there are much more women matriculating to optometry. It is pretty disproportionate.

It'll be a good profession for the part-time mom who doesn't mind sacrificing Saturdays and possibly Sundays. Because that seems to be the bulk of the jobs out there.
 
I'd STAY with Occupational Therapy. You made an excellent choice!

I periodically do job searches and there are always OT jobs. It's as good a field as Registered Dietician or Nursing. You can get a job anywhere and the field is growing. Plus you make good money, probably more than you would as an OD.

The optometry jobs are getting scarce and a number of the job listings are fake. Like ... an OD will post for an associate and then you inquire further and find out the job is a "market testing" tool. It's frustrating looking for a job.

OT is diverse while optometry is not. Quite frankly, being an OD is boring. I wished I'd picked a more diverse career.

When I fill for other ODs I am SO BORED! Wal-Mart wants you there for X number of hours patients or not (9-6 with 45 minute lunch) and there are so many OD's out there that there aren't enough patients to fill up the day. I almost fell asleep between patients at one fill-in job because I had no patients for like 5 hours in a row! And they won't let you just walk around the store and be paged. You must be on premises. When I fill in, I bring a huge pile of CE articles with me because that's what I do with most of my work day.

You want a career like that?

Stick with OT. At least you'll DO OT rather than sit on your a*s and read all day.
 
I'd STAY with Occupational Therapy. You made an excellent choice!

When I fill for other ODs I am SO BORED! Wal-Mart wants you there for X number of hours patients or not (9-6 with 45 minute lunch) and there are so many OD's out there that there aren't enough patients to fill up the day. I almost fell asleep between patients at one fill-in job because I had no patients for like 5 hours in a row! And they won't let you just walk around the store and be paged. You must be on premises. When I fill in, I bring a huge pile of CE articles with me because that's what I do with most of my work day.

You want a career like that?

Stick with OT. At least you'll DO OT rather than sit on your a*s and read all day.

Nonsense. You're just one of those losers like Tippytoe or Jason. Most students will read your post and think you are one of those rare types that just have bad luck or live in a bad location or maybe have bad breath and horns growing out of your forehead.

When in fact, your experience IS the experience of many, many, many new (<10 yr graduated) ODs. I have my own successful practice and laugh when people ask me when I will bring in an associate. They are surprised when I tell them, "probably never" because, why should I? I train my techs to refract. I can hire a tech for $25,000 to do pretty much everything I could hire an OD for (except be a license while I'm not here).A refracting tech and a good retinal camera (along with multiple exam rooms) will do 95% what a new OD will do. So why would I waste my money...............EVER!? Unless I want to retire.

However, there are still many older ODs that have never learned how to delegate. They think they need an associate OD whenever they begin to see more than 10 patients per day. Then find out they really can't afford one...... when it's too late.
 
Go dental.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Actually, the best thing to do now is to simply go with the nation's flow, get on government assistance, vote liberal democrat, and ride the easy train to Lazy Town, USA. That seems to be the prevailing push, these days, so why fight it?

Here's a shining example of what Obama's ideal American is doing with our tax dollars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_izYhdehY
 
I wholeheartedly disagree with this. Actually, the best thing to do now is to simply go with the nation's flow, get on government assistance, vote liberal democrat, and ride the easy train to Lazy Town, USA. That seems to be the prevailing push, these days, so why fight it?

Here's a shining example of what Obama's ideal American is doing with our tax dollars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP_izYhdehY

So... you are saying go optometry? :laugh:
 
With the growing Meth problem (your teeth rot out when you smoke it) Dental has a great future!

Tippytoe - never though of myself being replaced by a tech - but you're right. You can train techs to do 90% of the eye exam and so why hire an OD? I mean, most optometry practices don't have the level of patient demand that would allow for two or more OD's jumping room to room signing off on rx's and taking 15 min per patient.

I once filled in for an MD (who got the flu) and had the assistance of 3 ophthalmic techs and 1 front office person and we saw 30 patients in five hours. It was the most organized thing I'd ever experienced. They put flags up outside each room to direct me and I went room to room, signed the rx's, did the ocular exam with sl and bio and jumped to the next room. All DFE exams. I only rechecked a refraction if a tech told me it was difficult or a cyclo case. Anyway, we did 30 patients in 5 hours and I wasn't exhaused at all. (Was cool because patients were fully dilated by the time I walked in the room!)

At each office I fill-in for, I compare it to that day and I've not found one OD office as well run or organized.

So yeah, with proper training, why hire an OD associate?

And therein lies the problem also because there are so few jobs out there.
 
With the growing Meth problem (your teeth rot out when you smoke it) Dental has a great future!

Tippytoe - never though of myself being replaced by a tech - but you're right. You can train techs to do 90% of the eye exam and so why hire an OD? I mean, most optometry practices don't have the level of patient demand that would allow for two or more OD's jumping room to room signing off on rx's and taking 15 min per patient.

And my point of using well-trained techs as opposed to hiring a new ODs is mostly due to the fact that we all have to get much more efficient (ie. spending much less time with each patient) to make money with more and more insurance plans reducing payments more and more every year. Eventually (and probably with Obamacare) we will be making 10% net profit as opposed to today's approximately 25% to 30% net profit.

We really have no choice-- hire an $80,000 inexperienced OD or hire and train a three $25,000 techs. It really is a no-brainer to keep our business profitable and open. Just a sad fact of life in the world of government health care takeover and greedy insurance companies.
 
With the growing Meth problem (your teeth rot out when you smoke it) Dental has a great future!

Tippytoe - never though of myself being replaced by a tech - but you're right. You can train techs to do 90% of the eye exam and so why hire an OD? I mean, most optometry practices don't have the level of patient demand that would allow for two or more OD's jumping room to room signing off on rx's and taking 15 min per patient.

I once filled in for an MD (who got the flu) and had the assistance of 3 ophthalmic techs and 1 front office person and we saw 30 patients in five hours. It was the most organized thing I'd ever experienced. They put flags up outside each room to direct me and I went room to room, signed the rx's, did the ocular exam with sl and bio and jumped to the next room. All DFE exams. I only rechecked a refraction if a tech told me it was difficult or a cyclo case. Anyway, we did 30 patients in 5 hours and I wasn't exhaused at all. (Was cool because patients were fully dilated by the time I walked in the room!)

At each office I fill-in for, I compare it to that day and I've not found one OD office as well run or organized.

So yeah, with proper training, why hire an OD associate?

And therein lies the problem also because there are so few jobs out there.
I work at an office that shares plenty of similarities with that model although it's OD owned and has a large optical in the building. Part of the reason why I got hired is that the owner is no longer interested in seeing patients more than a day or two per week, and either sorts out business stuff or takes the day off otherwise, and the other doctor only wants two days. I got four and work one day somewhere else.

In urban environments, I predict a polarizing effect in the future. I see a much smaller percentage of OD's seeking private ownership and a divide between 25+ pt per day practices and starving ones that close their doors after a couple years. The successful practices will be high volume, medical or commercial. I predict more patients depending on ODs for medical problems because OMD's will gradually get rid of their patients who are not surgical candidates due to declining reimbursement. I see fewer "general" solo-OD practices with 45 minute exam slots. Employed (non owner) OD's will split into an "in" crowd who do well and an "out" crowd who have difficulty finding full time employment at sustainable practices.

Rural will continue to putter along as is because nobody wants to live in those places.

Re: 15 minutes exams. That's what I prefer, maximum. I do not want to talk to elderly people about their grandchildren. I do not understand why so many OD's value the long exam so much.
 
Getting back to the original topic more ... advice for this person.

Don't go into optometry. I have about 25 years left before I reach retirement age and I'm seriously questioning, now, if optometry can sustain me for that long. I honestly don't think I can make a living at it unless I get really, really lucky.

Extreme rural is the only field left to graze in.

I'm saving $$ for college tuition knowing that ... at some point ... the day will come when I can no longer make a living as an optometrist, OR, the day will come when I can make more money as a waitress. I expect I'll have to find a second career. (Have a few ideas already but have not acted on them).

One good thing ... for young ODs ... right now is that a lot of private practice ODs want to quit NOW over Obamacare. That means lots of practices are coming up for sale. Not OD's hiring associates ... but ODs retiring.

Honestly, I think I can make some decent in optometry money for another ten or 15 years. Beyond that ... it is seriously questionable whether a person can make a living in this profession.

I mean, if you start cold you MUST have a specialty.

Unlike Chiropractic, which has practically zero equipment overhead, Optometry is equipment intensive. In order to compete with the practice down the street you have to have: 1) A crisp electronic eye chart 2) An EMR system that allows you to go fast. 2) An Optomap 3) An OCT 4) A newer Humphrey Visual Field Machine 5) An accurate autorefractor such as a Topcon 3) A modern, soft-puff NCT because patients whine and complain about the puff from the old NCTs hurting too much (one will cost you $500 dollars, the other 4K) 4) And the usual lane equipment such as phoropter, stand and slit lamp. That's minimum amount of equipment just to compete. You lack this stuff and you're out of the game. Add it up, now.

I've run across insurance companies who have denied me network participation because I don't have any newer technologies I can offer their clients (such as Optomap) and I don't have a specialty. That really hurt my business.

Along those lines, let me be honest. I opened a private practice cold trying to general optometry without a specialty. No really expensive equipment like the aforementioned. I have had a negative net income for the past 3 years. The practice ended up netting me a total of (-) 40K. I ended up in bankruptcy.

I also must mention I did make mistakes but I was also very frugal. I worked outside the practice. The business ended up to be a money sucking machine with no future. So I ended it.

That wouldn't have happened had I opened the practice 15 or 20 years ago. It was a better world for optometry then.

I thought maybe that I was a complete ***** and other ODs didn't have similar problems but I've talked to close friends who opened their practice cold and they almost filed bankruptcy 3 times. It was a 2 OD practice (married couple) and that's what saved them. One OD was free to work outside the practice and the husband told me it to every single dime working outside the practice 3 days per week just to keep the doors of the practice open ... and it took 5 years just to make profit.

I didn't have that luxury in such a rural area. No other OD's in my area would offer me work because they didn't want me to gain a foothold in the community. I was essentially locked out of local employment and nearest town was 100 miles away. That meant every time I worked outside the area I had to pay for gas and hotel. That ate into my profit and when I was away, the practice made no money because the staff I'd hired needed babysitting. My optician could only make an outside rx sale if the patient paid cash. Tried replacing her and got someone even more stupid. Figured out that the bigger offices in town deliberately sucked up all the talent and if you were new, you were only left with ex-dope heads trying to turn their lives around. Any person with brains wouldn't work for a new practice for fear of the business failing. And so the circle went round and round.

I talked to a chiropractor in this town who told me his practice made a million dollars a year. He said he had no equipment overhead. He hired massage therapists to loosen the patient up prior to adjustment. He was fast. His adjustments took 5 minutes a patient and he bounced room to room. He told me that he also made certain, in cases of automobile accidents, to use up ALL of the auto insurance benefit. That was usually a minimum of 11K per patient!

He did say though that there are some people who also fail at chiropractic, but it's rare. You have to be in good physical shape for it. You have to keep in-shape and work out a lot. But he felt it was well worth the money he made. The million gross was made between himself and his partner DC. He said his net was huge because overhead was low.

What the previous poster said is coming true ... 10% profit and 90% expenses is what you can expect. That 10% is your GROSS SELF-EMPLOYED INCOME. Uncle Sam takes 40% of that.

So, when thinking about a career, you need to consider other things other than if it would be fun. Yeah, it's fun using the cool equipment, but the fun is gone once you have to pay for it.

There will be problems with every career you choose. It's a myth that you'll love everything about your job. I love optometry and I hate optometry and every feeling in-between. Like ... I love refracting and doing BIO and SL and stuff like that. Hate taking visual acuities. It is the job of a tech and pisses me off when I work for someone else and they waste my time making me do NCT and Autorefractor and fields. I hate that this once respectable profession has become commercialized and is now a joke in the medical community. I love making people see better, but I hate the fact that I have to suffer greatly in my life (aka starving) in order to make that happen.
 
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WOW, 20DOC20, thank you for the honest input. I continue doing my research on the optometry field as I am considering applying this upcoming June to optometry schools. I will be taking the OAT in January
 
20DOC20, you ever consider trying to find an optometry job with the feds? Obviously, the pay wouldn't be amazing, but if stability is what you are looking for, it would probably provide that. I'm not in Optometry myself, so I don't know how competitive these jobs would be.
 
Thanks for your candid response 20doc20. May I ask what general area do you practice in? Even if you say a city like Los Angeles there are hundreds of ODs there or in smaller towns there are 10's so its really hard to guess who you are. Plus there are counties that I know of that have 3,000 - 40,000 patients even with not a single optometrist or ophthalmologist. I think its more a matter of not settling down before you graduate and be willing to move where optometrists are truly needed.
 
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20DOC20, you ever consider trying to find an optometry job with the feds? Obviously, the pay wouldn't be amazing, but if stability is what you are looking for, it would probably provide that. I'm not in Optometry myself, so I don't know how competitive these jobs would be.
If you mean jobs in the prison system, those pay pretty well in general.
 
WOW, 20DOC20, thank you for the honest input. I continue doing my research on the optometry field as I am considering applying this upcoming June to optometry schools. I will be taking the OAT in January
A few points that I disagree with: 1. Chiropractic is not the promise land 2. Optomaps are unneeded and tend to not be profitable. Fundus cameras are needed. 3. Specialties generally do not have that much value, unless you consider disease a specialty or you speak a the foreign language of an ethnic community where the practice is. I'm sure 20DOC20 made some serious business missteps which we haven't really been told about.
 
If you mean jobs in the prison system, those pay pretty well in general.

Didn't know they employed optometrists. I was thinking of the VA and IHS.
 
The latest VA jobs actually are paying well but from what I've seen you have to be an OD in the VA system already to be a viable candidate.

Regarding business mistakes: I never made any serious business mistakes but I made a lot of little mistakes that added up over time.

A lot of the business mistakes were made from day one with regards to choosing the wrong lender for my commercial loan. The loan officers in charge drafted requirement prior to dispersing the monies to set up the practice. Example: You must send us copies of five insurance applications before we'll give you the first 5,000 in loan money. You must send us a copy of your commercial lease agreement with a minimum of 5 years at said location before getting 15K in money. You must hire a consultant from a list of bank-approved consultants prior to loan closing. The lendor actually set me up for failure because the consultant took 5K of my money and ran. I paid 5K for 3 phone conversations and the consultant dumped me within the first 2 months of practice opening, leaving me alone with no guide. I later found out he was retiring. The location ended up being a good location on the surface. The restaurant down the way got most of the complex's business and those clients did not frequent my optical at all. I got stuck in a bad location because of bank requirements. I found out most other businesses in complex were month-to-month on lease and I tried negotiating for that. The landlord said no. She said she'd sue me for the entire amount if I tried relocating.

One mistake was not getting separate money for inventory. The bank made me take it out of the working capital portion of the loan. That ate up a significant portion of capital right away. That was the lender's fault and I should've rejected the loan offer and went to a different bank. I made up for the difference by charging to my personal ccs. I did pay that off though by the end of the first yr and caught up.

The other ODs in the area played political games. I was the only full-service Eyemed office in town. Middle of second year of practice, Office X down the road got on Eyemed full-service and then was listed first on the Eyemed website because of wording. Being established, they got all the Eyemed business in the area. I literally lost 50% of the business overnight. When this same office heard I was closing, they went back to their former way of business and only offered Eyemed hardware benefits, not exams. Nice move on their part, I must say. Dirty, but clever.

Another thing happened around same time with VSP. One office in town had dr that was on verge of retirement. He no longer took VSP. I got all those VSP patients. Another office in town bought him the same month that Office X became full-service Eyemed. That other office took VSP and so whamo, they sucked up all my VSP traffic. That also contributed to the 50% drop in business overnight.

The disruption in cash flow came about because I lost my VSP and Eyemed business in the same month, leaving me only with Davis Vision. I was the only full-service Davis provider in town and everyone knows that you don't make jack off Davis Vision. Davis Vision is so bad that the IRS should allow us to write off the loss as a charitable contribution. Like they cap your reimbursement at around 175 dollars including exam and hardware. The average wholesale frame for me was around $35 dollars. The chair cost took up the remainder. There were not enough Davis patients in town to fill the gap. That's what dunked it under.

I really didn't make any huge mistakes. I was a victim of bad circumstances and a bad economy.

My rent wasn't even extravagant. It was around 900 per month. I didn't have any full-time employees. I had family volunteer as staff members to work for free. I paid myself hardly any draw. The maximum monthly draw was $1200,00. I lived off savings. The average draw was $800. My part-time optician made more money than I did. Even with these extreme cost-cutting measures, By comparison to other practices, my overhead was extremely low. I still couldn't make it work.

Talking to other OD's ... this may be becoming the norm.

There were staffing problems. That was the biggest error on my part. But that's something you learn as you go and other ODs had similar issues.

I still disagree with regards to needing optomap and other equipment. Patients are seeking out practices that have this device, at least in this area of the country. May be different back East. If you don't have the goodies, you can't compete in the market. (I never invested in really expensive equipment such as Optomap or OCT in my practice. I planned to do it later, but that day never came).

If you want to start cold you have to have enough savings to last you five years worth of minimal income because every dime you make working a second job will be used to keep your doors open. Five years is what it takes to make profit in this business. That is the norm from what other OD's have said. It's becoming an extremely difficult profession to make money in if you want to be your own boss. Also, you need a sub-specialty. You need connections. You also have to know how to play politics and how to charm people into liking you above all others.

Right now, being employed is better, if you can find a job. The jobs pay well, but are scarce. Fortunately, I have YEARS of varied experience behind me and that speaks well on my CV. I can out-compete any new graduate any day of the week. So that helps. But it's still not easy like it used to be.

Like in the late 1990's you could get a full-time position anywhere with excellent pay within 24 hours. Now, it can take 6 months for the same -- for less pay. And for the first time since I started practicing, I'm seeing the offered rate for an Independent Contractor fill-in in the cities going DOWN. It's gone down by 50-75 dollars in the past year in some regions!

___________

To the original poster ... in making a decision with regards to optometry ... you need to look also at how unified a profession is. How unified are the professional organizations? Do optometrists seem to like one another? Do they support one another? Do they agree on various subjects, or not? Study this board and other forums such as Optiboard and see how optometrists interact with one another online. Is it respectful, or not? Upon further study I think you'd conclude that this profession has enough problems that I'd take serious pause before making an investment in it.

Also ask what it is you like about optometry. Maybe opticianry would be a better route. It's cheaper and faster and you get to work with people and you can do lot depending on your motivations. You can also make good money in a management position, or a supertech position. Someday, you might even be able to refract!

I view optometry as an increasingly cutthroat profession where optometrists will deliberately undermine one another to survive in business. You have to be cutthroat to make it. The nice OD's will not survive this profession. You have to be cunning like Walt on Breaking Bad, basically (without being a murderous b*stard). You have to be one step ahead of your competition. You must know how to play the insurance game and that can be tricky because you have to be willing to walk the line of insurance fraud in order to survive in private practice. Without actually committing fraud, you do things that force the insurance companies to pay you the maximum out-of-pocket without them finding out that you're doing these things deliberately. If you don't, you'll bk, like me. I played by the rules and sunk.
 
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It sounds like a big part of the problem was that you were depending on vision plans rather than medical plans (CA?). Vision plans suck in general. Also, there must have been some issues with creating patient allegiance if you experienced that large of a drop multiple times. Either you weren't notifying patients to come back well enough or there was something about the practice they didn't like. And location counts for a lot. I can't speak too much because I haven't opened a practice cold, although I can't really say it's much of a goal of mine either.

Re: Optomap. I mostly speak from a cost/reimbursement standpoint. OCTs and fundus cameras reimburse very well with insurance plans. Optomap generally has that weird business model with patients paying out of pocket from what I know. Also, the limited clinical use and expensive price tag don't make it a great piece of equipment, in my opinion.
 
I have to disagree with some of the above statements. I have never been denied access to any insurance panel, vision or medical because I didn't have an Optomap or an OCT. Nor have I been denied access because I didn't have a specialty. I have been denied access in the past simply because I was an optometrist. That is an issue.

You do not need many of those things starting out. You do not need a "crisp electronic eye chart." You can get use a computer with a monitor or an old ipad. Those cost less than even the old fashioned projector charts. You do not need an OCT starting out. If you feel you must have an OCT, there are companies out there that will come to your office once or twice a month with a portable OCT. Book patients needing OCTs on those days. Many practices both optometric and ophthalmological operate that way. If you need a lane and a fundus camera, those can be leased. They do not have to be purchased outright.

Regarding inventory, there are many companies out there that will provide frames on consignment. You can also gain access to closeouts and last years models for a fraction of the cost of new high end stuff. Yes, there can be warranty and parts issues but you can fill out a significant part of a frame board without a massive bill.

It should not take you 5 years to make a profit in this business. If it does, you are either doing something wrong, or more than likely you have opened up in the wrong market, an area that doesn't need another optometrist.
 
I think 20/20 has a lot of insights here. Maybe he doesn't represent everyone's experience in private practice optometry, but I'm sure there are others who've had similar experiences to him, or rather, if they were in his position and opened in a market similar to the one he opened in, they'd run into the same problems.

I'd also like to mention that chiro is definitely not the answer though. Check online - chiro is a huge trap and a waste of a degree for many graduates.
 
It's all well and good to point out a professions good and bad points, but you basically get out what you put in. You can sit around and whine...or take control of your situation and get something done.

What an optometrist can do today is almost limitless. If you choose to get trapped in a dead end "job", that is your fault. And not to take away from anybody in a corporate setting...I know plenty who have been very successful and happy with it. It's not my cup of tea, but it is a very viable option. As an OD, you are independent...you can choose a job in a hospital, HMO, OMD office, commercial setting, private practice, and make your own decisions. As an OT, PT, or PA, you are subservient to the master with a capital M. Not that these fields are not worth consideration, but they are at a different level.
 
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It's all well and good to point out a professions good and bad points, but you basically get out what you put in. You can sit around and whine...or take control of your situation and get something done.

What an optometrist can do today is almost limitless. If you choose to get trapped in a dead end "job", that is your fault. And not to take away from anybody in a corporate setting...I know plenty who have been very successful and happy with it. It's not my cup of tea, but it is a very viable option. As an OD, you are independent...you can choose a job in a hospital, HMO, OMD office, commercial setting, private practice, and make your own decisions. As an OT, PT, or PA, you are subservient to the master with a capital M. Not that these fields are not worth consideration, but they are at a different level.


Agree. I also have a suspicion that many successful Optometrists also label themselves as Attending Physician on here lol. Although I would probably do that myself as ODs are Physicians as per Medicare.
 
Let's all be honest and realistic. Yes, Optometry is a wonderful profession and it is what you make of it. How you practice it. If you graduate debt free or minimal then sure you can and will be successful. On the other hand, if you have over 200-250,000 dollars in student loans, how can you tell these young graduates that Optometry is a wonderful profession when they will be facing an uphill battle trying to pay this student debt back in 10-20 years ? Optometric salaries have not kept up with the rate of inflation and what employee ODs got paid 10-15-20 years ago has not substantially increased over the years. Add more schools, more graduates each year and over saturation in big cities how can you look a potential OD in the eye and tell them Optometry will pay off?
 
Firstly, it is hard to "get ahead" in any field working for a salary. You can be comfortable ona salary but not get ahead. It is possible to earn 3-4 times quoted salaries when you take matters into your own hands. To truly get ahead you have to be entrepreneurial, multidimensional, and work your a$$ off.

Secondly, I am very much opposed to taking student loans for living expenses. For tuition, books, and fees, yes. For food, clothing, and shelter, I think it is a mistake. Again, you have to be entrepreneurial in all your endeavors. Avoiding consumer debt is the same as earning money.
 
Firstly, it is hard to "get ahead" in any field working for a salary. You can be comfortable ona salary but not get ahead. It is possible to earn 3-4 times quoted salaries when you take matters into your own hands. To truly get ahead you have to be entrepreneurial, multidimensional, and work your a$$ off.

Secondly, I am very much opposed to taking student loans for living expenses. For tuition, books, and fees, yes. For food, clothing, and shelter, I think it is a mistake. Again, you have to be entrepreneurial in all your endeavors. Avoiding consumer debt is the same as earning money.

Exactly, not every student will be swimming in debt. I come from a modest family with my parents never having a combined income of above $80,000 at any point. In any case, I'll be coming out with minimal debt as I saved enough money for a year of tuition before starting OD school and I chose to give up social pleasures by living at home. I also could have chosen to go to dental school or M.D. or D.O. school, assuming I would have gotten in, and be swimming in debt like many others. So sacrifices were made but hopefully my <$40,000 loan when I graduate will be sufficiently small for me to gain a foothold in the upcoming years.

I'd actually like to thank SDN in general for helping guide my decision on the Professional schools especially in regards to finances and future prospects.
 
Agree. I also have a suspicion that many successful Optometrists also label themselves as Attending Physician on here lol. Although I would probably do that myself as ODs are Physicians as per Medicare.

I am an optometrist and proud of it but honestly we are not "physicians". Yes, medicare lets us bill and get services for certain procedure and codes like medical doctors but we are not physicians in the traditional sense or in our training. If you go to a party with a bunch of MDs and introduce yourself as a physician and then they find out you are an OD they are going to think you are a. totally overcompensating for not getting into medical school and b. a complete dbag. Please be proud of our profession. There are enough people in our field who try to compensate because they are not medical doctors. As someone who has been out for 7 years, it is the most annoying and professionally frustrating component of being an OD. We are optometrists. Lets wear that badge proudly and stop trying to convince everyone that "Hey we are the same as medical doctors". It is a big joke.
 
I just realized that my status on sdn isincorrectly listed as attending physician. Although I have been able to add the word optometrist, I cannot seem to get rid of the words attending physician. I have no idea how if got that way. Make no mistake, with a username like fjpod, I am an optometrist. Although I am on a hospital staff, I am not an attending. Strange how everything in my profile was messed up as well.
 
"To truly get ahead you have to be entrepreneurial ........" There is no guarantee even if you are entrepreneur, multidimensional and work your butt off you will succeed. Business can be very unforgiving. Tell these young graduates with over 150-200,000 dollars in loans to open up a private office or even buy a franchise. You have absolutely no clue the difficulty it takes to succeed especially nowadays.
Yes you can do very well being your own boss than being employed by others but those days are far and gone. Not saying it's impossible but not easy virtually impossible if you are starting out with huge debt.
 
I am an optometrist and proud of it but honestly we are not "physicians". Yes, medicare lets us bill and get services for certain procedure and codes like medical doctors but we are not physicians in the traditional sense or in our training. If you go to a party with a bunch of MDs and introduce yourself as a physician and then they find out you are an OD they are going to think you are a. totally overcompensating for not getting into medical school and b. a complete dbag. Please be proud of our profession. There are enough people in our field who try to compensate because they are not medical doctors. As someone who has been out for 7 years, it is the most annoying and professionally frustrating component of being an OD. We are optometrists. Lets wear that badge proudly and stop trying to convince everyone that "Hey we are the same as medical doctors". It is a big joke.
Yes, I agree. I once ran into an optometrist who told me he employed "physicians" at his practice instead of referring to them as optometrists. I gave him a blank look and then stopped taking him seriously once I figured out what he was talking about.
 
"To truly get ahead you have to be entrepreneurial ........" There is no guarantee even if you are entrepreneur, multidimensional and work your butt off you will succeed. Business can be very unforgiving. Tell these young graduates with over 150-200,000 dollars in loans to open up a private office or even buy a franchise. You have absolutely no clue the difficulty it takes to succeed especially nowadays.
Yes you can do very well being your own boss than being employed by others but those days are far and gone. Not saying it's impossible but not easy virtually impossible if you are starting out with huge debt.
I wouldn't say that's totally true. Taking a corporate lease in a "two door" state allows you to be self sufficient with pretty low overhead--and you can pretty much practice how you want to in that situation although you might end up pissing the stores managers off if you're doing low volume and shutting down on weekends. Doing nursing home screenings is also low overhead for good money. And the right employee situation can become entrepreneurial in itself to an extent if you have big production bonuses.

Opening cold in a saturated environment and expecting to eat off vision plans sounds like professional suicide, though.
 
As I have said in another post, Running up $150-$200,000 in debt is a bad business decision especially if the debt is that high from living expenses.
 
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I am an optometrist and proud of it but honestly we are not "physicians". Yes, medicare lets us bill and get services for certain procedure and codes like medical doctors but we are not physicians in the traditional sense or in our training. If you go to a party with a bunch of MDs and introduce yourself as a physician and then they find out you are an OD they are going to think you are a. totally overcompensating for not getting into medical school and b. a complete dbag. Please be proud of our profession. There are enough people in our field who try to compensate because they are not medical doctors. As someone who has been out for 7 years, it is the most annoying and professionally frustrating component of being an OD. We are optometrists. Lets wear that badge proudly and stop trying to convince everyone that "Hey we are the same as medical doctors". It is a big joke.
I am not particularly enamored with the term physician. ..BUT... when patients put their trust in you, in your knowledge of the eye and visual system, when you query them about their health and medications, when you prescribe lenses or drugs, when you make them better, you are acting as a physician in their eyes. Medical doctors don't necessarily have a monopoly on the term, nor do they have one on knowledge and intelligence.
 
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