Interesting Article: Grades, GPA, and Inflation

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Great article,

I think it would be pretty cool if the grades HAD to be based on some percentile rank,that would definately mean a lot more.

Maybe something as such:
A > 90th %ile
A- > 80th %ile
B+ > 60th %ile
B > 40th %ile
B- > 30th %ile
C+ > 20th %ile
C > 10th %ile
D > 5th %ile
F < 5th %ile

My school posts the class average right next to the grade on the transcript - I like that too, thought everyone did it... Example:

.....................................................Grade ..............................Class Average
Molecular Biology of Oncogenes............. F - ......................................C +
 
Great article,

I think it would be pretty cool if the grades HAD to be based on some percentile rank,that would definately mean a lot more.

Maybe something as such:
A > 90th %ile
A- > 80th %ile
B+ > 60th %ile
B > 40th %ile
B- > 30th %ile
C+ > 20th %ile
C > 10th %ile
D > 5th %ile
F < 5th %ile

My school posts the class average right next to the grade on the transcript - I like that too, thought everyone did it... Example:

.....................................................Grade ..............................Class Average
Molecular Biology of Oncogenes............. F - ......................................C +

Interesting, so is your school one of the one's they talked about? I think that is the best idea. If your A is the average grade in the class, or, is in the top %5, it makes a real difference. Obviously every school would have to adopt this policy for it to be fair.
 
My university posted the class average (in GPA form) next to my letter grade. For some reason, within the past 2 years, they removed the class average and now the transcript only shows my grade.
 
I agree with a lot of what the article says but I don't agree with hard caps on grades either. The bottom 5 %tile being an F automatically doesn't make sense if everyone can do the work.

I think one of the main issues in grade inflation is the expectation for grades to be sky high. Any school that grade deflates hurts its students in grad/professional admissions. The vast majority don't have the legacy to back up poor grades. Based on admission data I question the ability of the MCAT to make up for a truly "bad" gpa.
 
I agree with a lot of what the article says but I don't agree with hard caps on grades either. The bottom 5 %tile being an F automatically doesn't make sense if everyone can do the work.

I think one of the main issues in grade inflation is the expectation for grades to be sky high. Any school that grade deflates hurts its students in grad/professional admissions. The vast majority don't have the legacy to back up poor grades. Based on admission data I question the ability of the MCAT to make up for a truly "bad" gpa.

it won't make up for a bad one, but really, anything from 3.6 to 4 is pretty much a wash.
 
A lot would argue that a 3.6 is still pretty inflated. Especially those desiring to see average gpas fall
Back to ~2.6 (like in the article).
 
Great article,

I think it would be pretty cool if the grades HAD to be based on some percentile rank,that would definately mean a lot more.

Maybe something as such:
A > 90th %ile
A- > 80th %ile
B+ > 60th %ile
B > 40th %ile
B- > 30th %ile
C+ > 20th %ile
C > 10th %ile
D > 5th %ile
F < 5th %ile

My school posts the class average right next to the grade on the transcript - I like that too, thought everyone did it... Example:

.....................................................Grade ..............................Class Average
Molecular Biology of Oncogenes............. F - ......................................C +


That's still pretty frickin' inflated. You're placing the 50th percentile at a B/B+ (i.e., 3.2ish). A better distribution might be:

Letter Grade -- Percentile (Z)

A -- 95.6-100% (>+1.7)
A- -- 90.4-95.5% (+1.3)
B+ -- 84.2-90.3% (+1.0)
B -- 75.9-84.1% (+0.7)
B- -- 61.9-75.8% (+0.3)
C+ -- 50.1-61.8% (0.0)
C -- 38.2-50.0% (-0.3)
C- -- 24.3-38.2% (-0.7)
D+ -- 16.0-24.2% (-1.0)
D -- 9.8-15.9% (-1.3)
D- -- 4.6-9.7% (-1.7)
F -- 0-4.5% (<-1.7)

This would place ~10% as As, 22% as Bs, 26% as Cs, 11.4% as Ds and 5% would fail a given course. Further, you would need to be in the top ~85% of the population in your area of interest to major in it. (In other words, you can't major in something you are the worst at, which just makes sense to begin with.)

A lot would argue that a 3.6 is still pretty inflated. Especially those desiring to see average gpas fall
Back to ~2.6 (like in the article).

A 3.6 avg is EXTREMELY inflated. By definition, a C-average is "ideal" (i.e., the definition of "C" is "average" or "satisfactory work fulfilling the expectations as assigned").
 
Arguing that it is unfair that your school has a more difficult grading system is stupid. It is not everyone else's fault that someone decides to go to a school that doesn't help out the interests of their own pre-professional students. Most people applying to medical school could have easily chosen a school that was more in line with the rest of the countries grading scales. That was a personal decision, and that individual should have done more homework. I am not saying it is wise to chose a school because you hear it is easy, but maybe I could see not selecting a school if it is likely to diminish my chances at a medical school acceptance in the future. Even if you still do well, you will often just not have as much time for the complete undergraduate experience and the long list of extracurriculars that will make you have a memorable college experience and also enhance your application. The same thing goes with those who chose a major and coursework that does not help their cause. While you most definitely want to experience rigor and be well rounded in the upper level sciences, it will not help your professional career if you cannot get a position in a medical school class.
 
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My GPA is very inflated.

Got my grades from this past semester and ended up with an A in pchem.

I knew about 65-70% of that material.

Just because I know a lot more than the kids around me (avgs in 40s) doesn't mean I deserve an A.

I truly deserve a C-/D+.

Grade inflation happens everywhere, at every school in the country. College is a business guys, inflation happens to ensure the $$$$$ is still coming in.
 
My GPA is very inflated.

Got my grades from this past semester and ended up with an A in pchem.

I knew about 65-70% of that material.

Just because I know a lot more than the kids around me (avgs in 40s) doesn't mean I deserve an A.

I truly deserve a C-/D+.

Grade inflation happens everywhere, at every school in the country. College is a business guys, inflation happens to ensure the $$$$$ is still coming in.

Unfortunately, there is truth to this.... Personally, I find it despicable.
 
Arguing that it is unfair that your school has a more difficult grading system is stupid. It is not everyone else's fault that someone decides to go to a school that doesn't help out the interests of their own pre-professional students. Most people applying to medical school could have easily chosen a school that was more in line with the rest of the countries grading scales. That was a personal decision, and that individual should have done more homework. I am not saying it is wise to chose a school because you hear it is easy, but maybe I could see not selecting a school if it is likely to diminish my chances at a medical school acceptance in the future. Even if you still do well, you will often just not have as much time for the complete undergraduate experience and the long list of extracurriculars that will make you have a memorable college experience and also enhance your application. The same thing goes with those who chose a major and coursework that does not help their cause. While you most definitely want to experience rigor and be well rounded in the upper level sciences, it will not help your professional career if you cannot get a position in a medical school class.

👍

This debate is kind of stupid because most people who argue that "this isn't a good indicator of ability because blah, blah, blah" is probably arguing that because it is the weak part of their app.

Grades are inflated. It seems to happen everywhere. That doesn't mean that getting a high-3.0 doesn't show a strong work ethic and some innate ability. GPA isn't perfect, but it's what we got.

In fact, no factor in the med school admission process is perfect. I laugh when people call the MCAT "the great equalizer." It seems there is a correlation between MCAT score and Step 1. However, once you get over 30, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between Step 1 scores (based on an old study I saw...may need to dig it up). Anyway, does my low 30s MCAT really make me a worse student than the applicant with the mid-30s or even upper-30s? Will they be more successful? Maybe, maybe not. So I don't think the MCAT is quite the predictor GPA-bashers think it is.

The fact is that there are a bunch of factors that go into a med school decision. On SDN, we always try to pick one and then analyze it under a microscope. These debates are useless.

Now, if you want to argue that IN GENERAL we should lower grade averages, that's fine. But it will take a long time and a complete change in mindset to accomplish that.
 
👍

This debate is kind of stupid because most people who argue that "this isn't a good indicator of ability because blah, blah, blah" is probably arguing that because it is the weak part of their app.

Grades are inflated. It seems to happen everywhere. That doesn't mean that getting a high-3.0 doesn't show a strong work ethic and some innate ability. GPA isn't perfect, but it's what we got.

In fact, no factor in the med school admission process is perfect. I laugh when people call the MCAT "the great equalizer." It seems there is a correlation between MCAT score and Step 1. However, once you get over 30, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between Step 1 scores (based on an old study I saw...may need to dig it up). Anyway, does my low 30s MCAT really make me a worse student than the applicant with the mid-30s or even upper-30s? Will they be more successful? Maybe, maybe not. So I don't think the MCAT is quite the predictor GPA-bashers think it is.

The fact is that there are a bunch of factors that go into a med school decision. On SDN, we always try to pick one and then analyze it under a microscope. These debates are useless.

Now, if you want to argue that IN GENERAL we should lower grade averages, that's fine. But it will take a long time and a complete change in mindset to accomplish that.

I definitely think grades need to be lowered at most institutions. However, this is really only fair if everyone does it. And, since everyone probably won't, to be the one school that does tank everyone's grades really screws your students over because it makes them look bad compared to everyone else. Honestly, getting a 4.0 in college shouldn't be possible.
 
I definitely think grades need to be lowered at most institutions. However, this is really only fair if everyone does it. And, since everyone probably won't, to be the one school that does tank everyone's grades really screws your students over because it makes them look bad compared to everyone else. Honestly, getting a 4.0 in college shouldn't be possible.


Getting a 4.0 in college should be like getting a 45 on the MCAT -- theoretically possible but never been done (at least not with a population of only ~60k taking it each yr.... with a several million college grads/yr it would be possible if everyone took the MCAT)
 
I definitely think grades need to be lowered at most institutions. However, this is really only fair if everyone does it. And, since everyone probably won't, to be the one school that does tank everyone's grades really screws your students over because it makes them look bad compared to everyone else. Honestly, getting a 4.0 in college shouldn't be possible.

Getting a 4.0 in college should be like getting a 45 on the MCAT -- theoretically possible but never been done (at least not with a population of only ~60k taking it each yr.... with a several million college grads/yr it would be possible if everyone took the MCAT)
How long have grades been inflating? My gf's dad is in his fifties and got a 4.0 in college. Really hard working, intelligent guy, and from what he's told me it wasn't common then.
 
How long have grades been inflating? My gf's dad is in his fifties and got a 4.0 in college. Really hard working, intelligent guy, and from what he's told me it wasn't common then.
According to the wikipedia entry for "grade inflation", it really got going in the 60s-70s. Damn hippies and their free love and free grades. 🙄

eg: Harvard: 1890 GPA 2.27, 1950 2.55, 2004 3.48. LMAO wtf? Half the class graduates at least cum laude? What a joke. If this trend continues half the class will graduate with a 4.0 by ~2030. :laugh:
 
How long have grades been inflating? My gf's dad is in his fifties and got a 4.0 in college. Really hard working, intelligent guy, and from what he's told me it wasn't common then.

Inflation wasn't really kicking in during the 50s. However, the difficulty of getting into college and of graduating from college in the 50s was very different than it was today. So few students went to Universities at that time that there really wasn't the same cutthroat mentality back then towards school that permeates many US universities today. However, getting a 4.0 was probably harder in its own right back then so her dad must have been a pretty hard working guy.

Getting a 4.0 in college should be like getting a 45 on the MCAT -- theoretically possible but never been done (at least not with a population of only ~60k taking it each yr.... with a several million college grads/yr it would be possible if everyone took the MCAT)

I agree with this. But there really should only be a few given that number of people taking it and it should clearly denote people that are both exceptionally academically gifted and exceptionally hardworking. A 4.0 is a terrible GPA for multiple people to share as there is no understanding of what each person's "ceiling" actually was.
 
Inflation wasn't really kicking in during the 50s. However, the difficulty of getting into college and of graduating from college in the 50s was very different than it was today. So few students went to Universities at that time that there really wasn't the same cutthroat mentality back then towards school that permeates many US universities today. However, getting a 4.0 was probably harder in its own right back then so her dad must have been a pretty hard working guy.

At the nation's top universities, you also have the best of the international students coming at the undergraduate level now. In the past, they exclusively came as graduate students and predominantly still do.
 
Even adding class percentiles to transcripts doesn't give a complete picture.

Because some universities admit mostly students with ACT/SAT scores in the 90th percentile or above, having a grading scale where an A = top 25% of class can mean something completely different than, say, a grading scale at a different university that admits high schoolers who aren't as skilled at taking tests where an A = top 10% of class. I take issue when people hold Harvard up as an example of grade inflation while my sister goes to a really bad public college alongside students who, based on admissions stats from both schools, did not score at all similarly on the ACT/SAT (average admitted high school senior has below a 50th percentile score) and there is a possibility of 10 to 20 extra credit points on every Chemistry test (tests which, in this particular case, I know because I've seen them are already easier than normal)...yet her school does not have a "grade inflation" problem because there are masses of students who probably shouldn't even be in college who are pulling the average down by a very large amount. Percentiles are simply meaningless in comparing grades at those schools. The Harvard administration has argued for years that their classes are just as hard as any other school, but that because their admission standards are so high, most students perform very well in the classes. It's not possible to try and make a claim along the lines that a 25th percentile (or 50th percentile) Harvard student wouldn't make the top 10% of my sister's class (and therefore shouldn't get an A), although it isn't possible to claim that they would, either.

So I don't think adding percentiles will make it GPA very much more meaningful for graduate and professional school applications. Students just can't be compared like that, which is why no matter what GPA will only remain one out of many areas in which pre-medical students are judged.
 
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This would place ~10% as As, 22% as Bs, 26% as Cs, 11.4% as Ds and 5% would fail a given course. Further, you would need to be in the top ~85% of the population in your area of interest to major in it. (In other words, you can't major in something you are the worst at, which just makes sense to begin with.)
so in your world people shouldn't major in things they are interested in, just things they are supposedly good at, at least in the introductory level. what a wonderful world that would be. 🙄
Getting a 4.0 in college should be like getting a 45 on the MCAT -- theoretically possible but never been done (at least not with a population of only ~60k taking it each yr.... with a several million college grads/yr it would be possible if everyone took the MCAT)
45 has been achieved. at least stick to things you know man.
 
so in your world people shouldn't major in things they are interested in, just things they are supposedly good at, at least in the introductory level. what a wonderful world that would be. 🙄

45 has been achieved. at least stick to things you know man.

There's been quite a bit of debate over whether anyone actually rec'd a 45. Do you have confirmation of this? I've heard of people claiming it and then it turning out they were lying, but have yet to hear of someone legitimately receiving a 45. Regardless, it matters little.

As for the being good at your major... being in the 15th percentile as a req't to major does NOT mean you are "good" at it. It means you're NOT the worst at it. Most schools do this anyway for a number of majors. For instance, no matter your passion for music, if you've only played the bass guitar for 6 mos and then tell a school you want to enter as a music major in bass performance, NO respectable music school would let you pursue that. Most would stop you at the audition but those that allow you to continue, would likely place you on probationary status at freshmen juries and not allow you to continue (i.e., kick you out) at the end of sophomore yr (at your sophomore "platform"). Some thought about what getting above the 15th percentile actually means would serve well here. It doesn't mean being in the top 15%....
 
Even adding class percentiles to transcripts doesn't give a complete picture.

Because some universities admit mostly students with ACT/SAT scores in the 90th percentile or above, having a grading scale where an A = top 25% of class can mean something completely different than, say, a grading scale at a different university that admits high schoolers who aren't as skilled at taking tests where an A = top 10% of class. I take issue when people hold Harvard up as an example of grade inflation while my sister goes to a really bad public college alongside students who, based on admissions stats from both schools, did not score at all similarly on the ACT/SAT (average admitted high school senior has below a 50th percentile score) and there is a possibility of 10 to 20 extra credit points on every Chemistry test...yet her school does not have a "grade inflation" problem because there are masses of students who probably shouldn't even be in college who are pulling the average down by a very large amount. Percentiles are simply meaningless in comparing grades at those schools. The Harvard administration has argued for years that their classes are just as hard as any other school, but that because their admission standards are so high, most students perform very well in the classes. It's not possible to try and make a claim along the lines that a 25th percentile (or 50th percentile) Harvard student wouldn't make the top 10% of my sister's class, although it isn't possible to claim that they would, either.

So I don't think adding percentiles will make it GPA very much more meaningful for graduate and professional school applications. Students just can't be compared like that, which is why no matter what GPA will only remain one out of many areas in which pre-medical students are judged.

Definitely agreed. However, I believe that this is part of what it means to go to a top private institution and the only real equalizer in this should be the employers, admissions committees, and other evaluators taking the caliber of the student-body into account.

Either that or we entertain the utopian idea of every school implementing similar means of evaluating coursework such that an A at Podunk represents the same level of mastery as an A at Harvard. This will never happen (many professors don't want this to happen) and thus our best bet is the above. However, this is roughly what happens now so that's pretty much as good as it gets I suppose.
 
so in your world people shouldn't major in things they are interested in, just things they are supposedly good at, at least in the introductory level. what a wonderful world that would be. 🙄

They already have minimum grade requirements to achieve credit for major coursework so I assume apumic's suggestion would essentially replicate this but keeping with the %tile method.
 
They already have minimum grade requirements to achieve credit for major coursework so I assume apumic's suggestion would essentially replicate this but keeping with the %tile method.

My statement was really just an extension of the percentile system I suggested. Since most schools require a minimum of a C- in all major coursework, a school using a percentile system like this would require one to be in the top 76% of major classes in order to graduate with a given degree.
 
Even adding class percentiles to transcripts doesn't give a complete picture.

Because some universities admit mostly students with ACT/SAT scores in the 90th percentile or above, having a grading scale where an A = top 25% of class can mean something completely different than, say, a grading scale at a different university that admits high schoolers who aren't as skilled at taking tests where an A = top 10% of class. I take issue when people hold Harvard up as an example of grade inflation while my sister goes to a really bad public college alongside students who, based on admissions stats from both schools, did not score at all similarly on the ACT/SAT (average admitted high school senior has below a 50th percentile score) and there is a possibility of 10 to 20 extra credit points on every Chemistry test (tests which, in this particular case, I know because I've seen them are already easier than normal)...yet her school does not have a "grade inflation" problem because there are masses of students who probably shouldn't even be in college who are pulling the average down by a very large amount. Percentiles are simply meaningless in comparing grades at those schools. The Harvard administration has argued for years that their classes are just as hard as any other school, but that because their admission standards are so high, most students perform very well in the classes. It's not possible to try and make a claim along the lines that a 25th percentile (or 50th percentile) Harvard student wouldn't make the top 10% of my sister's class (and therefore shouldn't get an A), although it isn't possible to claim that they would, either.

So I don't think adding percentiles will make it GPA very much more meaningful for graduate and professional school applications. Students just can't be compared like that, which is why no matter what GPA will only remain one out of many areas in which pre-medical students are judged.

You are being evaluated against your own student body NOT against others'. In other words, the fact that it's Harvard should say enough in terms of the school's prestige; however, it is the student's performance at Harvard taken against that of other Harvard students that matters. Giving inflated grades PLUS name recognition is essentially to try and take a double-serving of the pie. Further, there is diversity in ability levels at HYPS. As a result, grade inflation basically gyps the strongest students. Instead of "I got a 4.0 at HYPS" being an accomplishment, it's really one of those "nice story, bro" types of things. Grade inflation places a low ceiling on strong students. That prevents them from being able to truly shine. I have some excellent students but I can count the number of perfect grades I gave out on assignments on one hand and the number of As I gave out in the class on the other hand with enough fingers to spare to type this paragraph!
 
But you can't assume that a big-name such as Harvard counts very much in terms of medical school admissions compared to the relatively higher GPA that same student might have gotten at a different school or the relatively more meaningful GPA that same student would have achieved at a school that does not have a "grade inflation" problem. In my experience with medical school admissions, that is not the case (although I wish it were!).

It would be nice if GPAs from Harvard were only compared to GPAs from Harvard and not from anywhere else...but in practice, GPAs from Harvard are compared directly to GPAs from all other schools, but with highly varying amounts of emphasis that the word "Harvard" puts in each different adcom member's mind (if any). And schools with screening cutoffs do not make exceptions because someone went to Harvard, despite that if the Harvard student were competing in a different student body he/she could very well have (or not) had an A average instead of a B average. I agree with you that Harvard students with 4.0s are getting a double serving of advantages, whereas students with lower GPAs in various individual no-name state school course programs around the country, some of which are just as difficult or even more so than Harvard's, have the possibility of getting screwed over twice. I still seriously disagree with anyone who thinks Harvard has a grade inflation problem to begin with.

Regarding the OP's article, I just wanted to point out that there are still too many variables in play for GPA alone to be very meaningful, even with the addition of percentiles.
 
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anyone that says "nice story bro" clearly did not go to one of those schools.

haha...I was exaggerating, but the reality is that 3.7+ GPAs are quite common at these schools. When a school has to put a "limit" of 40% As for any course, the standard for an A, and by that a 4.0, is far too low.
 
But why? Why should that be the case when Harvard is admitting students who are statistically far better at taking tests than than students at other schools? The top 40% at Harvard are statistically better than the top 15% or 10% at many colleges in America, so why shouldn't the top 40% of Harvard students get As if they earn them?

Acting like Harvard shouldn't give As to great students is the driving force behind the word "Harvard" itself having any weight at all in graduate and professional school admissions. Other variables aside (test difficulty differences between schools, etc.), no one acts like great students shouldn't get As at other schools.

Why does an A at Harvard have to be the same as an A everywhere else, when it probably is not? Why should the definition of an A be standardized across widely varying schools, instead of the course material and test difficulty being standardized, with the standardization of the value of an A following naturally? That does not make sense to me, particularly when the definition of an A isn't even standardized within a single school, but typically varying amongst courses: in some courses, an A might be anything >92%, in other courses at the same school, an A might be 10th percentile, and in other courses, an A might be above 90%...unless a curve is needed. The definition of an A is already too varied within schools; it is completely unfair to want Harvard to conform to another school's definition of an A. This is why med schools look at much more than just GPA when choosing which students to admit.

So I repeat: It would be nice if GPAs from Harvard were only compared to GPAs from Harvard and not from anywhere else...but in practice, GPAs from Harvard are compared directly to GPAs from all other schools, but with highly varying amounts of emphasis that the word "Harvard" puts in each different adcom member's mind (if any). And schools with screening cutoffs do not make exceptions because someone went to Harvard, despite that if the Harvard student were competing in a different student body he/she could very well have (or not) had an A average instead of a B average. I agree with you that Harvard students with 4.0s are getting a double serving of advantages, whereas students with lower GPAs in various individual no-name state school course programs around the country, some of which are just as difficult or even more so than Harvard's, have the possibility of getting screwed over twice. I still seriously disagree with anyone who thinks Harvard has a grade inflation problem to begin with.
 
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Well, I didn't really want this to turn in to a ivy vs public debate, although I should have assumed it would. The article refers to grade inflation in general...

But, since the subject is at hand...I agree that the caliber of students at ivy schools is higher, obviously. However, what the proponents of inflation at these schools don't take in to account are multiple factors. You guys seem to just attribute it to the caliber of student and leave it at that, when the reality is that it is not that simple.

For one, grades have been inflated at all schools. Ivy schools always had higher GPA's, but said higher GPA's rose along with schools across the country. It would be one thing if the average GPA's were always in the B+-A range, but that has not been the case historically.

The second thing that is being ignored is that there are many public schools that have become quite selective that do not have nearly the inflation. I'm not saying these schools have the exact same caliber of students (I'm mainly talking about schools like Berkeley), but with average matriculating students having a GPA of 3.8, they are no slouches. These big public schools curve to about a 2.6 usually, where as many of the ivies curve to a 3.2 or greater.

Lastly, and what I believe is the most important factor, money and perception plays a huge role, for public, but especially for private institutions. If a school like Harvard has higher average GPA's to go along with their name recognition they will have more students matriculating in to professional schools. This creates more prestige and more contributions from alumni. Don't ignore this factor because it is very important.

In the end nobody, I don't think, is arguing that many students at a school like Harvard should get F's, as I don't think that's likely. But, one of the main reasons, supposedly, for getting admitted to a school like Harvard is that one is supposed to be challenged and compete with the best of the best. On paper, however, it just doesn't seem that competitive if most students are getting A's.

My main purpose for posting the article though was not to argue this, but rather that I think it is an interesting concept to post class averages on transcripts to give a better picture of what's going on.
 
I understand what you are saying. However, how do you know that everyone who gets an A doesn't deserve it or that people at the low end of the A spectrum wouldn't be at the very top of the class at a different school? I don't think they should be given a lower score than they deserve just because there are a lot of other really smart people that got a few more points. In a sense, grade inflation may act as an equalizing force. What constitutes an A at one school may be C work at another school, but instead the grade is inflated to a B in order to prevent giving this very smart student an unfair disadvantage when being compared to people at less challenging schools. Does that make sense at all? I doubt professors really think that way when giving out grades, it's probably more just that (if there even is grade inflation) they want to reward very strong work with an A even if compared to their peers some students did a little worse. This speaks more to the strong caliber of the students at the school rather than any academic leniency of the university.

Having been an instructor at 2 universities, I can tell you this is how I grade (i.e., wanting to give As for good work, etc.); however, I also pay attention to the class distribution. I keep my gradebook in Excel and have it perform a set of statistical analyses on each individual graded item, student, class, and course. I also have it compare my students to known historical data on each class I teach. This allows me to calibrate my grading, because, in reality, grading is quite often more subjective than objective. While I can certainly tell you whether student A or B's paper/lab report/essay/exam response, etc. was of higher quality, the criteria for an 85% vs. a 92% or a 7/10 or 9/10 are often fairly ambiguous. To give your students 40% As, 50% Bs, 10% Cs (no Ds or Fs) is to assume the average student at your school would have been in the B+ range taking the same course anywhere else. When one considers the number of "somewhat selective" "highly selective" and "very highly selective" schools in the country that do NOT have heavy grade inflation, it quickly becomes apparent that such an assumption is patently false.

Furthermore, if I am a top student at HYPS, I'd sure as he** want employers to know it! The last thing I'd want as one of the actual top 5-10% of students at one of those schools would be to have the next 20-30% of the student body come out with a virtually identical transcript simply because my school lacked the balls to give them the grade they deserved! This is not to sound elitest (I'm really not), but I think students who perform at the very top should be recognized as such. This is what is at the core of my frustration with grade inflation. I think it lessens the achievements of some simply to make others feel better about themselves. The reality is we each have our strengths and weaknesses. If you're not going to coddle the kid that wants to be a professional football player but is simply too small and weak (despite his overwhelming passion for football), then why coddle the HS valedictorian who got into HYPS but simply couldn't cut it when it came to being in the top 10% of students? That person has already rec'd her reward for HS performance (i.e., being valedictorian). She needs to earn her way in college not simply be given As because "she is obviously a strong student."
 
I don't think that it is fair to say that the top 40% at Harvard will for sure be in the top 10 at a good state school.

Number one, I think most people underestimate the number of ivy-caliber students at state schools. Many people choose those schools for monetary or other personal reasons, not because they could not get into an ivy.

Second, the atmosphere is completely different. Being in a large state school can be very intense. You are in a class with 500 other students. The school is trying to weed out students. I'm not talking about it's hard, so some people drop out of majors. I mean, they literally try and force people out with strict curves so that upper-division classes have fewer students. Plus, it's different in a large lecture. You have to be much more independent and create your own learning experiences. You cannot rely on a supportive professor or school resources much of the time.

Then, you have the social aspect. Even the smartest students at state schools (ivy-caliber) can fall into the social trap. I have seen it.

I'm not trying to say that ivy students can't cut it at state schools or anything like that. I just think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that 40% of Harvard students deserve A's because they surely would get them if they attended any other school.

It's impossible to know that. They are COMPLETELY different educational experiences.
 
Random observations on reality (my own + others I know very well):

- Getting an A- or A at any Ivy/hard school is really, really tough. Until you've been there or know someone really well who has, you have no right to comment on grade inflation at these schools because frankly most of you can't even hack it at these places.

- Pre-med courses at any respectable state U are not "easy." < 10% get A's or A-'s at my program, so even if the average kids get C's, you have little room for error to miss a solid A. People from elite schools fail to realize that there is no curve in these classes, so you are competing against the professor's expectation not against the other idiots in the class. Similarly, kids with 3.8 and below typically get only into DO/low MD ranked schools.

- Easy schools exist, and the MCAT will weed those people out. In a reverse example, guy I know with a 2.4 at a grade-deflated school got a 38 on the MCAT. Will he get into a respectable U.S. MD school? Probably not.

- Grade inflation is least likely in the pre-med weed out courses. That sGPA is there for a reason.

- The most shafted applicants are probably those who go to a tough school that seem to get no bump in the admissions process, despite the higher competition. Places like Reed, CalTech, Chicago, etc. come to mind. Pre-med high school students lurking here should do their research accordingly and avoid these types of places... like the plague.

- Proof is in the numbers. 99% of all Harvard undergrads get in somewhere. 94% of Yalies do. 91% of Princeton people do. Is there self-selection? Probably. My sister-in-law (Radcliffe alumna) took herself out of the process because her GPA was not good enough.

Back to the gulags...
 
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Plus, we are all ignoring the role of high school.

We are arguing inflated grades lead to bad/unfair admissions. Isn't the problem arguably worse in high schools.

Do students even deserve to be in Ivies in the first place?

GPA is an imperfect thing. That's why both college admissions and med school admissions use it, but it is far from the only factor.
 
Totally agree with Barcu. I was accepted to U. Chicago, but chose to come to a no name school for fin. aid related reasons, and proximity. I also wanted to add that G.P.A is certainly not meaningless, but I do believe that beyond a certain threshold (>3.7) it has very diminishing returns. A student in a lab and science intensive major with a >= 3.7 G.P.A is a pretty darn good student. There are so many factors (including professor, credit load, class syllabus, class makeup, class time, weather, etc. etc.) that affect G.P.A that it can seem almost unfair to compare students scholastically, solely using G.P.A.

For instance, I know plenty of bio majors with a 4.0 who have taken no more than 12 credits of science classes (of which only one was hard) with the easiest professors, at the most convenient times, with plenty of friends, from whom they can borrow notes and exams for the class. It is extremely easy to maintain a 4.0 at my school provided you complete the bare bones requirements needed to graduate (in fact I completed my degree reqs in 1.5 years due to AP credits)

Most of these aforementioned students have no idea what the central dogma of biology is, and they are senior year students, a semester away from graduating. That shows you the value of assessing them using their G.P.A as a measuring scale. I, on the other hand, have purposely taken the most hardcore classes with packed schedules (>20 credits of all science courses without regard to professor and/or time) and have managed a darn good G.P.A (>3.8) but not a 4.0. I also not only know the central dogma of biology, but also how to clone a gene and many, many more advanced theories and techniques that would put my 4.0 peers to shame. Seeing a trend here?

G.P.A is only an approximate measure of work ethic, nothing more.
 
See, I went to a school accused of having grade inflation. 4.0s were unheard of, period. Anything above 3.6 in science was considered amazing. That is why I don't understand the grade inflation argument. Many of the people who make accusation of grade inflation have no idea what it is like to study at a top university.

Do you have any idea what it's like to study at a public ivy? At my school, 6 students out of about 5,000 graduating had a perfect 4.0.

I'm not trying to start a fight here or pick on you about grade inflation. My point is that we are making assumptions about other peoples' educational experiences in a way to justify our own academic issues. I'm sure ivies are incredibly tough. My experience at a state school was tough. If we switched, what would happen? No idea. It is impossible to compare GPAs from two different institutions. But IN GENERAL, GPA has proven to be a good factor in the admissions process. But it's not the only one.
 
Do you have any idea what it's like to study at a public ivy? At my school, 6 students out of about 5,000 graduating had a perfect 4.0.

I'm not trying to start a fight here or pick on you about grade inflation. My point is that we are making assumptions about other peoples' educational experiences in a way to justify our own academic issues. I'm sure ivies are incredibly tough. My experience at a state school was tough. If we switched, what would happen? No idea. It is impossible to compare GPAs from two different institutions. But IN GENERAL, GPA has proven to be a good factor in the admissions process. But it's not the only one.

And I can bet you $1,000 that more than half of those students with 4.0s fit the mold I described in my previous post. Such is the truth.
 
And I can bet you $1,000 that more than half of those students with 4.0s fit the mold I described in my previous post. Such is the truth.

Maybe. I can't speak for all of them, but I knew a few of them, and they definitely did not fit your mold.

I guess my major point is that no matter how hard we try, GPA will never be fair. I was just jumping on the point by previous posters that pretty much said that the 40% of people getting A's at Ivies would be in the top 10% at any state school. I found that to be a bit presumptuous. They are completely different places and educational experiences, and thriving in one environment does not mean you would thrive in another.

GPA is an imperfect measure. It correlates to success in med school, which is why it is a huge factor in admissions. But it is not the only one, and rightly so.
 
Random observations on reality (my own + others I know very well):

- Getting an A- or A at any Ivy/hard school is really, really tough. Until you've been there or know someone really well who has, you have no right to comment on grade inflation at these schools because frankly most of you can't even hack it at these places.

- Pre-med courses at any respectable state U are not "easy." < 10% get A's or A-'s at my program, so even if the average kids get C's, you have little room for error to miss a solid A. People from elite schools fail to realize that there is no curve in these classes, so you are competing against the professor's expectation not against the other idiots in the class. Similarly, kids with 3.8 and below typically get only into DO/low MD ranked schools.

- Easy schools exist, and the MCAT will weed those people out. In a reverse example, guy I know with a 2.4 at a grade-deflated school got a 38 on the MCAT. Will he get into a respectable U.S. MD school? Probably not.

- Grade inflation is least likely in the pre-med weed out courses. That sGPA is there for a reason.

- The most shafted applicants are probably those who go to a tough school that seem to get no bump in the admissions process, despite the higher competition. Places like Reed, CalTech, Chicago, etc. come to mind. Pre-med high school students lurking here should do their research accordingly and avoid these types of places... like the plague.

- Proof is in the numbers. 99% of all Harvard undergrads get in somewhere. 94% of Yalies do. 91% of Princeton people do. Is there self-selection? Probably. My sister-in-law (Radcliffe alumna) took herself out of the process because her GPA was not good enough.

Back to the gulags...


First Bold: The majority of Cal-State's come to mind.
Second bold: Yes
Third bold: Consider the fact that CTech grades on a Credit/No Credit for the first semester of college, a time where many pre-med's struggle to get acquainted with college life. On the flip side, these students (I'm speaking of Tech primarily) are truly the "wiz's" of high school. They are more equipped than most students to really nail the MCAT for one, and to have some of the strongest research-based applications, smaller class-size for intimate staff LOR's, and a quality of education that stresses innovation and creativity with a specific application of the fundamental sciences. I don't think its fair, or even reasonable, to say a high school student should "avoid" these schools because they're challenging.
 
Yes I agree. I erased a previous post because it seemed crass when i reread it but anyway gpa is an imperfect measure and it's impossible to compare between schools. It seems more logical and fair to have some minimum gpa threshold and then begin to look at other factors. This avoids the temptation to compare unfairly.

I saw your post, and it was no problem. I kind of jumped on you a bit when I was really addressing some other posters earlier in the thread as well.

I completely agree with the gpa thing. It is hard to compare gpas between two schools.
 
Actually what I said was

It's not possible to try and make a claim along the lines that a 25th percentile (or 50th percentile) Harvard student wouldn't make the top 10% of my sister's class (and therefore shouldn't get an A), although it isn't possible to claim that they would, either.

and I was talking about a specific school--my sister's--of which I have first-hand knowledge. I was never talking about any respectable state U's, but only the really bad, not respected ones and community colleges and for-profit colleges (which combine to educate the majority of Americans), and I apologize for the misunderstanding if it seemed otherwise.

I'm annoyed that we even get judged on GPA at all when there is a standardized test which, unlike GPA, also correlates to some degree with success in medical school. People with high GPAs always argue that it demonstrates work ethic, but as the last few posters have shown, it is highly debatable that it even shows that, especially when you have people on these forums saying "if you want to be premed, avoid certain hard schools and courses because they will ruin your GPA."
 
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This debate is kind of stupid because most people who argue that "this isn't a good indicator of ability because blah, blah, blah" is probably arguing that because it is the weak part of their app.

Grades are inflated. It seems to happen everywhere. That doesn't mean that getting a high-3.0 doesn't show a strong work ethic and some innate ability. GPA isn't perfect, but it's what we got.

In fact, no factor in the med school admission process is perfect. I laugh when people call the MCAT "the great equalizer." It seems there is a correlation between MCAT score and Step 1. However, once you get over 30, there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between Step 1 scores (based on an old study I saw...may need to dig it up). Anyway, does my low 30s MCAT really make me a worse student than the applicant with the mid-30s or even upper-30s? Will they be more successful? Maybe, maybe not. So I don't think the MCAT is quite the predictor GPA-bashers think it is.

Oh sweet irony. You're doing the exact same thing with the MCAT you accuse people of doing with gpa.
 
Oh sweet irony. You're doing the exact same thing with the MCAT you accuse people of doing with gpa.

I know that. You caught on.

Everyone has weak parts of their app, and everyone tries to make their weakness seem less of an issue.

I, like all applicants, fall into the same trap. Which is why my main point was that many factors are required to choose a good med school applicant.
 
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