Interesting Article: Grades, GPA, and Inflation

[Sine Cura]

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That wouldn't mean they would choose Berkeley over ALL Ivies and Stanford. I can understand someone passing on Yale, if they are interested in the hard sciences--because, quite frankly, our didactic methods in science suck--but one would choose a school such as Stanford or Harvard for math, not necessarily Berkeley.

Ask the 2009 Putnam fellow who's an undergrad at the University of Washington why he didn't go to a more rigorous institution. Let us know if your buddy Ben gets at least honorable mention on this year's Putnam.

 

[Dbate]

Ask the 2009 Putnam fellow who's an undergrad at the University of Washington why he didn't go to a more rigorous institution. Let us know if your buddy Ben gets at least honorable mention on this year's Putnam.

There are five putnam fellows, but only one winner, and guess what? Xiaosheng Mu goes to Yale. In fact he spent most of his freshman year in our buttery playing pool.

 

[eli20]

There are five putnam fellows, but only one winner, and guess what? Xiaosheng Mu goes to Yale. In fact he spent most of his freshman year in our buttery playing pool.

The five highest scorers don't have internal rankings? So...

 

[mitchlucker]

My dad could beat up your dad.

And geniuses do go to state schools. One of my good friends at my state schools is an absolute genius he's just relatively lazy (when in comparison to some of the people you guys have spoken of).

He could have easily attended HYPS if he wanted to, but didn't even apply. He got full scholarship to my school and stayed close to home so he could be near his family and GF.

I know kids that went to ivies, got into ivy schools, and this kid blows all of them out of the water.

I think he made the wrong choice going to my school. My GPA is only slightly lower than his but he knows and understands about 1000x more than me. There is no where that we should be considered on the same level intellectually. But our GPAs sort of reflect that.

He isn't getting the education he should be getting right now but it's his choice. He would have a 4.0 or very close to it at any school he chose to attend.

Most of my schools averages are set to a c+/b- so I guess this helps even things out between us and the top schools where averages are b+/a-.

I admit my GPA would be lower if I was competing with ivy level students, but significantly lower? I doubt it. I'd probably have a 3.6 or something around there, but I definitely doubt I'd be at the 3.9+ I am at my state school.

 

[Dbate]

The five highest scorers don't have internal rankings? So...

I looked it up and I stand corrected, though I will note that during the last decade, the only state school students to be named Putnam Fellows were this chap you are referencing and some person from CUNY.

 

[eli20]

I looked it up and I stand corrected, though I will note that during the last decade, the only state school students to be named Putnam Fellows were this chap you are referencing and some person from CUNY.

And the one from Yale is the only student from Yale to be named a fellow in the last 20 years...

 

[Dbate]

And the one from Yale is the only student from Yale to be named a fellow in the last 20 years...

That's because most people here didn't come here to major in math. Those types tend to go to MIT, Princeton, and Harvard.

The people who go to Yale are those interested in politics (like myself) and the humanities, hence why out of the last 20 years, three out of four presidents have been Yale alums.

 

[mitchlucker]

And the one from Yale is the only student from Yale to be named a fellow in the last 20 years...

Yeah but the argument was over private elite colleges vs. state schools ...


But the thing is is that lower ranked schools promote these things a LOT less. For instance, I've never even heard of this competition before this thread. None of my really close friends at other schools would have either.

Now, that really wouldn't make too much of a difference, I don't know anyone in our math department that would stand a chance at one of those things aside from my friend I mentioned earlier, and I don't even know if he would do very well in something like that even though he is going for a related field and got an 800 on the sat math.

I read some of the problem sets the students had to do and started laughing. Anyone who knows how to do any single one of those problems is pretty friggen smart in my book.

 

[gettheleadout]

You're speaking in blanket statements--makes you seem like you don't have a clue. I didn't go to Harvard because I didn't give a **** in high school, and I know a lot of smart people who were the same way. Keep in mind not everyone was a nerd in high school.

Agreed. I graduated high school with a 3.7 and a 33 ACT, 2040 SAT (216 PSAT) and I would bet money every Ivy would've rejected me if not based on those stats alone, on the fact that I had virtually no significant EC's. I knew I would get in to my respectable state school, and my aim was simply a full scholarship there, which I was able to get. At the same time, while I don't know if I would measure up to Harvard students in terms of work ethic, I have complete confidence that I am smart enough to be there. I honestly do believe that if I had taken the time to review material (my math ACT score sucked, I didn't learn/retain anything in precal) and study for the tests themselves, I could have gotten perfect scores. Misplaced or not, this confidence comes from simply understanding the way I think. I have little doubt that I am less intelligent than the "average" student at Harvard. The top student there? Yeah, he/she would blow me away, they're probably a genius.

You can't overlook the fact that people's attitudes toward academics change; people have the revelation that their effort matters at different points in time, and not everyone that can be a superstar in college was one in high school.

 

[mishaS]

GPA is a horrible measure of anything, only giving rank among your peers for that particular environment. MCAT is better, since everyone has to take it, however naturally good standardized test takers like me have a clear advantage and get better scores than people who can know more, but aren't great at this particular form of examination. Churchill said

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

I think that applies here to, the system isn't fair, or close to perfect, but there really isn't a feasible system that would be perfect given the huge variables in education. Maybe a better system, at least for medical schools, would be to go into a 6-7 year program without having to do undergrad. During the "undergrad" like year(s), there would be an overabundance of spots, and the medical schools, being in control over this education, would be able to more clearly see who should be allowed to move into the more limited medical spots.

As it is though, I can only think of the girl I overheard bitching about how it's unfair that her roommate has a 4.0, but doesn't work, or do research, etc. and it isn't fair, but tough ****, we all know the rules of the game, and if you can't figure out how to [ethically] play it to your advantage then that's your problem. Medical schools at least have the saving grace of seeing your extra curriculars, essays, and interviewing you to make a much more broad review of applicants, however that still isn't going to reveal things like students taking easier professors to get easier A's, or in my case the fact that I received an A in physics 1, despite not learning one thing, and having a 67% average (we made a petition to get the prof fired, as far as I know he taught only one semester after).

You can't overlook the fact that people's attitudes toward academics change; people have the revelation that their effort matters at different points in time, and not everyone that can be a superstar in college was one in high school.

Very true, I had a 3.5 gpa in highschool and got a 26 on the ACT. I aced my exams and didn't do my homework, with my drive for grades being "I'll only do well enough to not piss off my parents." I didn't think about scholarships, and so now I'm surrounded by kids with full rides, seeing the idiot I was. I only really thought about middle school not mattering, so ergo high school won't either, and so I'd buckle down in University, which I did. Further, a classmate of mine was expelled in middle school for dealing drugs in school, he's a second or third year pharm student now.

 

[KevAquarius]

There are so many factors (including professor, credit load, class syllabus, class makeup, class time, weather, etc. etc.) that affect G.P.A that it can seem almost unfair to compare students scholastically, solely using G.P.A.

For instance, I know plenty of bio majors with a 4.0 who have taken no more than 12 credits of science classes (of which only one was hard) with the easiest professors, at the most convenient times, with plenty of friends, from whom they can borrow notes and exams for the class. It is extremely easy to maintain a 4.0 at my school provided you complete the bare bones requirements needed to graduate (in fact I completed my degree reqs in 1.5 years due to AP credits)

Most of these aforementioned students have no idea what the central dogma of biology is, and they are senior year students, a semester away from graduating. That shows you the value of assessing them using their G.P.A as a measuring scale. I, on the other hand, have purposely taken the most hardcore classes with packed schedules (>20 credits of all science courses without regard to professor and/or time) and have managed a darn good G.P.A (>3.8) but not a 4.0. I also not only know the central dogma of biology, but also how to clone a gene and many, many more advanced theories and techniques that would put my 4.0 peers to shame. Seeing a trend here?

G.P.A is only an approximate measure of work ethic, nothing more.

👍👍👍 Agreed and also evident at my school.

 

[mishaS]

Bah! Everyone dogs on bio majors (me). Maybe I'm the exception in that I have gotten more A-'s in "easy" bio classes than any other subject, while acing every chem class I've taken (with the exception of Chem I lab, where my hubris got the better of me) including some high level biochem classes containing only biochem students and biochem PHDs. Bio has it's own challenges, and if you like learning systematically vs rote memorization they're a good deal more difficult.

 

[ucpremed]

Bah! Everyone dogs on bio majors (me). Maybe I'm the exception in that I have gotten more A-'s in "easy" bio classes than any other subject, while acing every chem class I've taken (with the exception of Chem I lab, where my hubris got the better of me) including some high level biochem classes containing only biochem students and biochem PHDs. Bio has it's own challenges, and if you like learning systematically vs rote memorization they're a good deal more difficult.

Even in advanced (chem/molecular-based) bio classes though it's mostly systematic and conceptual. In the ecology and macro bio world it's different, but in the human bio, physio, gen bio and so forth stuff it's pretty systematic. If you understand the chemistry and physics of physiology for example it's not that difficult of a class.

 

[mishaS]

Well, I don't know, my genetics and immunology classes were a good mix of both systematic and rote memorization. I always felt like I was getting screwed with my exams, feeling like I knew enough for an A, but not ever doing well enough. Other people did well so that honestly seems like arrogance. In my biochem classes this last semester I excelled, and in my "hardest" class I did well above average and had the highest grade on the final (over the PHD students). The same can be said about the other grad level chem class, however it bothers me that anyone would have thought it was hard because frankly it wasn't (the professor would regularly say "this is much more complicated in eukaryotic systems so we aren't going over it" which bothered the hell out of me). Maybe I just picked the wrong major, and I really hope it won't bite me in the ass come medical school next fall....

 

[bookfreak89]

Agreed. I graduated high school with a 3.7 and a 33 ACT, 2040 SAT (216 PSAT) and I would bet money every Ivy would've rejected me if not based on those stats alone, on the fact that I had virtually no significant EC's. I knew I would get in to my respectable state school, and my aim was simply a full scholarship there, which I was able to get. At the same time, while I don't know if I would measure up to Harvard students in terms of work ethic, I have complete confidence that I am smart enough to be there. I honestly do believe that if I had taken the time to review material (my math ACT score sucked, I didn't learn/retain anything in precal) and study for the tests themselves, I could have gotten perfect scores. Misplaced or not, this confidence comes from simply understanding the way I think. I have little doubt that I am less intelligent than the "average" student at Harvard. The top student there? Yeah, he/she would blow me away, they're probably a genius.

You can't overlook the fact that people's attitudes toward academics change; people have the revelation that their effort matters at different points in time, and not everyone that can be a superstar in college was one in high school.

Actions speak louder than words. True, people's attitudes toward academics change over time. However, people trying to justify their decisions by retrospectively patting themselves on the back isn't going to do them any good. Focusing on making your future reflect your newfound academic rigor says more than anything else.

Not trying to attack you or anything, I just know people who say things like this, yet continue their old habits. Just venting my frustrations.

 

[emlibrary]

Bah! Everyone dogs on bio majors (me). Maybe I'm the exception in that I have gotten more A-'s in "easy" bio classes than any other subject, while acing every chem class I've taken (with the exception of Chem I lab, where my hubris got the better of me) including some high level biochem classes containing only biochem students and biochem PHDs. Bio has it's own challenges, and if you like learning systematically vs rote memorization they're a good deal more difficult.

I'm in the same boat....