Interesting Article on the so-called "Pharmacist shortage" from an X-recruiter

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WVUPharm2007 said:
I'm moving to Russia.
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Another typical comment out of Mike's fountain of infinite wisdom.
I'm not saying the shortage is GONE completely or that there aren't jobs out there, I posted that article just cuz it portrays how times have changed.

If you really wanna hear about a profession where there's a "surplus" and people can't get jobs go look at the allnurses.com forum. You wouldn't believe the number of new RN grads who can't find jobs.
 
Do you know what the worst part is? The pharmacist shortage is over, but only the schools that opened before 2007 have pumped out graduates. What are we going to do once all the new schools flood the market? Pharmacy will become the new RN: offered at each and every college in the world... except there are 1/2 the positions compared to RN.

In Pittsburgh, my mom teachers for a nursing program and only half of the graduates can get jobs immediately. In most cases, you have to know someone. Future of pharmacy?

Nursing Aid = Pharmacy Tech
Nurse = Pharmacist
Nurse Practitioner = Residency Trained Pharmacist?
 
Awesome! An article writen by someone who is right at the center of all that is wrong with our profession. First he is with the University of the Incarnate Word Feik School of Pharmacy which is one of the new diploma mill schools. Second he used to be the director of professional recruiting and college relations at Walmart. The double wammy Wal-Mart and a diploma mill school...awesome!!!!
 
This has already been covered in the juniors forum
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=694412

MountainPharmD said:
Awesome! An article writen by someone who is right at the center of all that is wrong with our profession. First he is with the University of the Incarnate Word Feik School of Pharmacy which is one of the new diploma mill schools. Second he used to be the director of professional recruiting and college relations at Walmart. The double wammy Wal-Mart and a diploma mill school...awesome!!!!
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A serious question, if I may: what makes a school a diploma mill school?

I'm not saying that diploma mills don't exist, but it's far too simplistic (and not a credible stance) to label every 'new school' as a diploma mill.

So...what makes a school a diploma mill? And, using the criteria you provide, please cite some examples.
 
297point1 said:
This has already been covered in the juniors forum
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=694412



A serious question, if I may: what makes a school a diploma mill school?

I'm not saying that diploma mills don't exist, but it's far too simplistic (and not a credible stance) to label every 'new school' as a diploma mill.

So...what makes a school a diploma mill? And, using the criteria you provide, please cite some examples.
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I generally think of pharmacy schools opening at universities (or colleges) with no other well-established terminal health programs or standing hospital affiliations. This goes double if they're in an area that already has a few schools (or a saturated job market), while citing the ongoing shortage. The few that spring to mind are the plethora of new schools in California, as well as Touro-NYC and the soon-to-open D'Youville College of Pharmacy.

They tend to charge outrageous tuition amounts while accepting students who weren't accepted to any of the other long-standing programs in the area. The students are desperate, and just like everyone else, they feel they have a right to pursue the education they see fit (nothing wrong with that). What is wrong is the new schools preying on naive students that can't possibly see the long term disadvantages that they will have to deal with simply because of their alma mater.
 
They tend to charge outrageous tuition amounts while accepting students who weren't accepted to any of the other long-standing programs in the area. The students are desperate, and just like everyone else, they feel they have a right to pursue the education they see fit (nothing wrong with that).
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I think this hits the heart of the matter.
 
He mentioned students throughout the United States, but I don't think he looked at Arkansas very much because all of our graduates have had jobs in the past few years. Even last year in 2009.
 
Praziquantel86 said:
I generally think of pharmacy schools opening at universities (or colleges) with no other well-established terminal health programs or standing hospital affiliations. This goes double if they're in an area that already has a few schools (or a saturated job market), while citing the ongoing shortage. The few that spring to mind are the plethora of new schools in California, as well as Touro-NYC and the soon-to-open D'Youville College of Pharmacy.

They tend to charge outrageous tuition amounts while accepting students who weren't accepted to any of the other long-standing programs in the area. The students are desperate, and just like everyone else, they feel they have a right to pursue the education they see fit (nothing wrong with that). What is wrong is the new schools preying on naive students that can't possibly see the long term disadvantages that they will have to deal with simply because of their alma mater.
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X2 for me! Saved me some time and hit all the important points.
 
297point1 said:
This has already been covered in the juniors forum
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=694412



A serious question, if I may: what makes a school a diploma mill school?

I'm not saying that diploma mills don't exist, but it's far too simplistic (and not a credible stance) to label every 'new school' as a diploma mill.

So...what makes a school a diploma mill? And, using the criteria you provide, please cite some examples.
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So, from the criteria listed above, are you from a diploma mill school?
 
Passion4Sci said:
But who wants to live in AR? 😛
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I do 😀 I would just have to live close to the border so I can make road trips to visit places. I wouldn't necessarily want to live right in the middle of large parties and concerts every night. It would get very crowded and very loud. I would want to be able to sleep at night :laugh:
 
crazybob said:
I do 😀 I would just have to live close to the border so I can make road trips to visit places. I wouldn't necessarily want to live right in the middle of large parties and concerts every night. It would get very crowded and very loud. I would want to be able to sleep at night :laugh:
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Nothing Quietiapine can't fix right up!
 
Since when did there become too many nurses? I have been working in nursing for the past few years and once you have your RN license you are set. In fact in the 2 years since I became a nurse my salary has increased by 50%. If you can't get a job right out of nursing school then you haven't really been trying or you are an idiot and everyone has picked up on that in your interviews.
 
will7678 said:
Since when did there become too many nurses? I have been working in nursing for the past few years and once you have your RN license you are set. In fact in the 2 years since I became a nurse my salary has increased by 50%. If you can't get a job right out of nursing school then you haven't really been trying or you are an idiot and everyone has picked up on that in your interviews.
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yeah. I know a lot of people in nursing school (i was in nursing school for a bit), and all of them have had more job offers than they can handle
 
Praziquantel86 said:
I generally think of pharmacy schools opening at universities (or colleges) with no other well-established terminal health programs or standing hospital affiliations. This goes double if they're in an area that already has a few schools (or a saturated job market), while citing the ongoing shortage. The few that spring to mind are the plethora of new schools in California, as well as Touro-NYC and the soon-to-open D'Youville College of Pharmacy.

They tend to charge outrageous tuition amounts while accepting students who weren't accepted to any of the other long-standing programs in the area. The students are desperate, and just like everyone else, they feel they have a right to pursue the education they see fit (nothing wrong with that). What is wrong is the new schools preying on naive students that can't possibly see the long term disadvantages that they will have to deal with simply because of their alma mater.
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Not to get off topic, but I really doubt DYC is going to make that much of a ding in the Buffalo market. The students who got there who were "simply desperate" to get in (which is a gross generalization) will probably also be desperate enough and willing to move and practice in Lockport/NF/Olean/Jamestown/Syracuse/Binghamton/etc. Some of their better performing students may not even have to move that far. However, getting back on topic, while a little competition in the field is good (do you really want to be treated by a pharmacist who only had to have a license and a pulse, and didn't have to apply himself to get a job?), I do agree at some point the growth does need to stop, and that point has arrived. I wouldn't want to see any more schools open in WNY on top of the three that exist.
 
will7678 said:
If you can't get a job right out of nursing school then you haven't really been trying or you are an idiot and everyone has picked up on that in your interviews.
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Those kind of people are scarily prevalent. I don't know if there's a stigma going around that nursing is easy or something, but...damn. I remember when i took A&P as well as Microbiology, about 90% of the class was pursuing nursing. I lost count of how many times I thought "If I was at a hospital and you were treating me, I'd get up and leave."
 
IrishHammer said:
Not to get off topic, but I really doubt DYC is going to make that much of a ding in the Buffalo market. The students who got there who were "simply desperate" to get in (which is a gross generalization) will probably also be desperate enough and willing to move and practice in Lockport/NF/Olean/Jamestown/Syracuse/Binghamton/etc. Some of their better performing students may not even have to move that far. However, getting back on topic, while a little competition in the field is good (do you really want to be treated by a pharmacist who only had to have a license and a pulse, and didn't have to apply himself to get a job?), I do agree at some point the growth does need to stop, and that point has arrived. I wouldn't want to see any more schools open in WNY on top of the three that exist.
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D'Youville isn't going to make a ding in the Buffalo market for two reasons: first, there is hardly a market to make a ding in, and second, no one wants to hire their future graduates. Everything about D'Youville is a little bit of a running joke around here, especially their faculty. I know of one P4 who was offered a job as a clinical professor while at her first rotation of the year...she turned it down.

I also take issue with your ongoing theme of moving to less-desirable areas. There's a reason they're less desirable: not many people want to live there. I didn't go to pharmacy school to be relegated to living halfway between Utica and Malone. I don't entirely blame new schools and expanding class sizes for the difficulty in finding quality jobs, but they certainly don't help.

By the way, if you're interested in a hospital or clinical position in Buffalo/Rochester/Syracuse/anywhere in New York, good luck if you're not already interning there. The hospital market is absolutely frigid right now.
 
To the above poster: I am debating whether to attend UB for the start of my professional years next fall. Do you see the job market getting any better in that region for pharmacists or pharmacy interns? Where in NYS is the job market for pharmacists okay?
 
willrocks said:
To the above poster: I am debating whether to attend UB for the start of my professional years next fall. Do you see the job market getting any better in that region for pharmacists or pharmacy interns? Where in NYS is the job market for pharmacists okay?
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In all honesty, it's impossible to tell what the market will be like in four years. There are way too many variables to consider, including the economy, the progress of the UB 2020 plan, how the hospital mergers pan out, and how the influx of graduates from St. John Fisher and D'Youville's first class pan out. You also have to factor in what the retirement rate for currently practicing pharmacists will be at that time, which again, is largely dependent upon the economy and various mergers/buyouts.

By no means would I avoid UB because of fears about the job market a few years out. The same concerns exist almost anywhere in the country, and Buffalo is no exception. You'll still be given a top-notch education from a nationally recognized school, which will almost certainly be a factor in your favor down the road.

I don't know what other schools you are considering attending, but if they're schools in the immediate area, I think UB is your best bet.
 
Praziquantel86 said:
Everything about D'Youville is a little bit of a running joke around here, especially their faculty. I know of one P4 who was offered a job as a clinical professor while at her first rotation of the year...she turned it down.
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Damn, that's bad. No wonder you guys all rag on them. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of UB students who feel the same way about Fisher, but...damn, that's bad. Given the fact that their dean used to be the dean at Pitt, I'd have thought they could have set up a better program than that.

Praziquantel86 said:
I also take issue with your ongoing theme of moving to less-desirable areas. There's a reason they're less desirable: not many people want to live there. I didn't go to pharmacy school to be relegated to living halfway between Utica and Malone. I don't entirely blame new schools and expanding class sizes for the difficulty in finding quality jobs, but they certainly don't help.
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I didn't say less desirable in that last post...I said "not Buffalo". And any time I have said "less desirable", I was re-using a tag someone else had used. I don't believe suburban and rural areas are less desirable. Why do you take issue with that? I was born and raised in ski country, and I'd gladly move back there and work after I graduate. Take my comments about that with a grain of salt. If it's not your thing, fine, but there are plenty of people in pharmacy school who don't necessarily care about where they live, or moreover, don't want to live right in the middle of a big city. I'm not that much of an anomaly.

Praziquantel86 said:
By the way, if you're interested in a hospital or clinical position in Buffalo/Rochester/Syracuse/anywhere in New York, good luck if you're not already interning there. The hospital market is absolutely frigid right now.
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This is the second time you've wished me luck in getting a job now. When I find one after graduation, wherever it may be, look me up, and I'll buy you tickets to a Sabres game. That's actually a serious offer, by the way. I have a good friend who quit her pharmacy job (non-hospital) back in October or so. She had offers fall into her lap from 5 different hospitals, ultimately taking the offer that Children's Hospital gave her. I'm not equating that to me being able to find as sweet a deal right out of school, because I'm aware I won't, but it's possible to work one's way up the pharmacy ladder, as it were.
 
willrocks said:
To the above poster: I am debating whether to attend UB for the start of my professional years next fall. Do you see the job market getting any better in that region for pharmacists or pharmacy interns? Where in NYS is the job market for pharmacists okay?
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If you attend UB, you will probably be okay. Most hospitals likes to recruit from schools they are familiar with. If that hospital is mostly UB alumnis, they will mostly hire UB interns and RPHs.

I do not see the job market getting any better. If anything, all of the trends are indicating that things will get worst. If the job market is bad right now, I cant imagine how it would be when the 2 new pharmacy schools plus others in the tri state area graduate their first class. In addition, medicaid has been cutting reimbursements every year. Last year, they cut reimburstment twice. This has hit the independent pharmacies pretty hard. Lastly, the chains are not expanding as much as they had in the past. There are many reasons why they are not expanding including towns not wanting them there, it is more profitable to take over independents, and a lot of the new pharmacies are not profitable anymore.
 
Praziquantel86 said:
D'Youville isn't going to make a ding in the Buffalo market for two reasons: first, there is hardly a market to make a ding in, and second, no one wants to hire their future graduates. Everything about D'Youville is a little bit of a running joke around here, especially their faculty. I know of one P4 who was offered a job as a clinical professor while at her first rotation of the year...she turned it down.
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D'You lack the solid work ethic and proven academic credentials to make an impact in a respected, mainstream institution?

D'You have a burning desire to shoulder massive private student loans, and pay a grossly inflated tuition in exchange for a substandard education administered by poorly qualified instructors, some of whom may need to schedule their instruction around the classes they are themselves taking elsewhere?

D'You find yourself laying awake at night contemplating the existential irony of the very act of pursuing higher education being a simultaneous effort to devalue and dilute the very industry in which you would like to work?

If the answers to these questions are a resounding "yes!", then D'Youville is for you!
 
Kleon280 said:
D'You lack the solid work ethic and proven academic credentials to make an impact in a respected, mainstream institution?

D'You have a burning desire to shoulder massive private student loans, and pay a grossly inflated tuition in exchange for a substandard education administered by poorly qualified instructors, some of whom may need to schedule their instruction around the classes they are themselves taking elsewhere?

D'You find yourself laying awake at night contemplating the existential irony of the very act of pursuing higher education being a simultaneous effort to devalue and dilute the very industry in which you would like to work?

If the answers to these questions are a resounding "yes!", then D'Youville is for you!
Click to expand...

That is the best first post I've ever seen. My hat's off to you, sir.
 
If anyone at D'youville is reading this, I'll be a professor. I'm a I'm bona fide licensed pharmacist, too. It can't be that hard. All my professors did was grab some guideline documents...put them into condensed powerpoint format...take multiple choice questions out of nitpicky, largely irrelevant factoids contained inside said guidelines...rinse, wash, repeat. If anybody has a question I don't know, I'll just post it on here and the nerds of SDN will do my work for me.

PM me for references, if needed.

Sweet. Easy Street, here I come...
 
Kleon280 said:
D'You lack the solid work ethic and proven academic credentials to make an impact in a respected, mainstream institution?

D'You have a burning desire to shoulder massive private student loans, and pay a grossly inflated tuition in exchange for a substandard education administered by poorly qualified instructors, some of whom may need to schedule their instruction around the classes they are themselves taking elsewhere?

D'You find yourself laying awake at night contemplating the existential irony of the very act of pursuing higher education being a simultaneous effort to devalue and dilute the very industry in which you would like to work?

If the answers to these questions are a resounding "yes!", then D'Youville is for you!
Click to expand...

Whoo!!! Hooo! I am sold!!! Sign me up....I am ready to do pharmacy school all over again.
 
IrishHammer said:
Damn, that's bad. No wonder you guys all rag on them. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of UB students who feel the same way about Fisher, but...damn, that's bad. Given the fact that their dean used to be the dean at Pitt, I'd have thought they could have set up a better program than that.



I didn't say less desirable in that last post...I said "not Buffalo". And any time I have said "less desirable", I was re-using a tag someone else had used. I don't believe suburban and rural areas are less desirable. Why do you take issue with that? I was born and raised in ski country, and I'd gladly move back there and work after I graduate. Take my comments about that with a grain of salt. If it's not your thing, fine, but there are plenty of people in pharmacy school who don't necessarily care about where they live, or moreover, don't want to live right in the middle of a big city. I'm not that much of an anomaly.



This is the second time you've wished me luck in getting a job now. When I find one after graduation, wherever it may be, look me up, and I'll buy you tickets to a Sabres game. That's actually a serious offer, by the way. I have a good friend who quit her pharmacy job (non-hospital) back in October or so. She had offers fall into her lap from 5 different hospitals, ultimately taking the offer that Children's Hospital gave her. I'm not equating that to me being able to find as sweet a deal right out of school, because I'm aware I won't, but it's possible to work one's way up the pharmacy ladder, as it were.
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I had a well-thought out response to this, but I forgot to hit submit before I closed my browser. Oh well.

Basically, my point boiled down to this: I refer to the areas as "less desirable" simply because not as many people desire to live there. I realize that some people are more at home in rural, off the beaten track sort of places, and I have no problem with that. Many others, maybe even the majority, prefer to live in more well-populated urban/suburban areas with more opportunities for culture, activities, and all the other good stuff that goes with population. I personally would have no problem living in a more rural area, but the area I hope to practice in simply does not include that as a possibility. Many others who hope to practice in larger hospitals, academics, or other specialized areas (which is a good chunk of the non-community crowd) will also be faced with the same dilemma.

And as far as wishing you luck twice, sorry if I'm coming off a bit harsh...it's not how I meant it (I don't even remember the first time, to tell you the truth). I may take you up on that Sabres offer, as long as it's another loss to the Islanders 🙂
 
BMadjuster said:
http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-12-...tion-nonunion-nurses-united-american-nurses/2

Looks like 140k is possible. Must be expensive to run a hospital when you have 6 figure salary nurses running around everywhere.
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I know a nurse that worked on average 48 hours per week (4 12 hour shifts) last year on weekend overnights. So the hours sucked and he was doing some overtime; but he pulled in over 90k here in Rochester, NY with only an associates degree as an RN. Pretty good money if you ask me. That was also with full benefits on top of it and not a per diem position. I have heard of a per diem position around here that pays almost $50/hour with no benefits. Throw in a bit of overtime and you would clear well over 100k in an area with a much lower cost of living. Now that is not the norm but it is possible if you are flexible with your hours. I would say the norm around here is a little under 50k for a new grad nurse and in the 50-60k range with a bit of experience.
 
Praziquantel86 said:
I had a well-thought out response to this, but I forgot to hit submit before I closed my browser. Oh well.

Basically, my point boiled down to this: I refer to the areas as "less desirable" simply because not as many people desire to live there. I realize that some people are more at home in rural, off the beaten track sort of places, and I have no problem with that. Many others, maybe even the majority, prefer to live in more well-populated urban/suburban areas with more opportunities for culture, activities, and all the other good stuff that goes with population. I personally would have no problem living in a more rural area, but the area I hope to practice in simply does not include that as a possibility. Many others who hope to practice in larger hospitals, academics, or other specialized areas (which is a good chunk of the non-community crowd) will also be faced with the same dilemma.
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All very true statements. My original point was simply that if students really are going to DYC out of desperation, then there's also a good chance that they'll be willing to move wherever they're asked in the name of getting a job, meaning that it won't hurt the job prospects of UB (and hopefully SJF, I'm waiting with baited breath to see how the first class turns out) graduates in the least. Of course, given that pharmacies around Buffalo are seemingly already snubbing DYC, I seem to have brought up a moot point anyway.

And as far as wishing you luck twice, sorry if I'm coming off a bit harsh...it's not how I meant it (I don't even remember the first time, to tell you the truth). I may take you up on that Sabres offer, as long as it's another loss to the Islanders 🙂
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Nah, it's fine. The internet was invented with the idea of being cruel to your fellow man anyway. :meanie: Besides, while I'm optimistic about my chances of getting a job, I do realize that the market is rapidly becoming increasingly competitive, which I'm guessing was the take home point both times you wished me luck anyway (the first time was with Wegman's, by the way). I'm not quite as much as a diploma mill daydreamer as my posts might indicate.

You mean you wouldn't want to go to a Maple Leafs game? If you enjoy ripping on DYC, just think of how much fun you could have with the Leslie Dan Faculty of Pharmacy at University of Toronto. Hell, they still offer the BSc as the introductory degree. And they say we're old fashioned for not using the metric system.
 
Respiratory Therapist/Technician starts at my hospital in the bay area at deep in the $70,000s before O/T and that's with the sweet-ass county benefits pkg., etc..., all achieved with an Associate's degree and a license, essentially the same as we would expect a C.PhT to possess.

All that, for "Okay, now breathe in... and breathe out" for 12 hours a day.
 
Kleon280 said:
D'You lack the solid work ethic and proven academic credentials to make an impact in a respected, mainstream institution?

D'You have a burning desire to shoulder massive private student loans, and pay a grossly inflated tuition in exchange for a substandard education administered by poorly qualified instructors, some of whom may need to schedule their instruction around the classes they are themselves taking elsewhere?

D'You find yourself laying awake at night contemplating the existential irony of the very act of pursuing higher education being a simultaneous effort to devalue and dilute the very industry in which you would like to work?

If the answers to these questions are a resounding "yes!", then D'Youville is for you!
Click to expand...

Can you make this into a commercial with this in the background?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ[/YOUTUBE]
 
image-8752_4B5FC9EB.jpg
 
type b pharmD said:
yeah. I know a lot of people in nursing school (i was in nursing school for a bit), and all of them have had more job offers than they can handle
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Times changed very quickly.
As of about four years ago there was said to be ~500,000 inactive nurses (ie. stay at home moms) but with the tough times many of them returned to work and the "shortage" quickly sublimed.
 
BMadjuster said:
http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-12-...tion-nonunion-nurses-united-american-nurses/2

Looks like 140k is possible. Must be expensive to run a hospital when you have 6 figure salary nurses running around everywhere.
Click to expand...

That's cuz it's California. Unions in that state are out of control. Another big reason for their budget crisis despite their liberal taxation policies.
Also, 140k in San Francisco isn't as much as it sounds like. That city has a ridiculously high cost of living.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
If anyone at D'youville is reading this, I'll be a professor. I'm a I'm bona fide licensed pharmacist, too. It can't be that hard. All my professors did was grab some guideline documents...put them into condensed powerpoint format...take multiple choice questions out of nitpicky, largely irrelevant factoids contained inside said guidelines...rinse, wash, repeat. If anybody has a question I don't know, I'll just post it on here and the nerds of SDN will do my work for me.

PM me for references, if needed.

Sweet. Easy Street, here I come...
Click to expand...

O/T but are you still living in that trailer I saw in your avatar awhile back? I must say, I am impressed to see someone whose frugality exceeds that of my own.
 
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