Interesting article

[docjones]

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I am neither pro nor con, but this article makes for interesting reading:

www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

 

[medicinesux]

Wow, what a scathing article! Usually articles like this would profile just one individual and such person would than be picked apart by the medical community. On the contrary, this story is loaded with one nightmare story after another. First off Mr. Moxley is ****ed. His is the saddest story I have ever came across till now- my new posterboy of medicinesux. Mr. Moxley, the 54 year old grad who can't land a residency and owes a quarter of a million, will die so broke that he won't even be able to afford a wood coffin to bury his poor ass in. Even if he did manage to get a residency and somehow survived through it without keeling over from an MI, he will be nearly sixty before he is an attending! Then he will have to work till he's 90 to pay off those loans😱. What a retirement that will be! Oh and let's not forget about the Detroit dude, who owes a whopping 470K. How one is allowed to rack up that much debt before hitting 30 is way beyond me. He might as well board a plane to Indonesia and disappear forever in one of their thousands of islands. He would be happy to know that Indonesia does not recognize student loan judgements and has no extradition treaty with the US.
What the hell is going on down in Ross!?!? There is no excuse to be enrolling so many students with questionable credentials when taxpayers will be responsible when they default. But I guess Devry don't care since they'll get their money from the student or the govt no matter what. It's a win win for them. Tragically, there are going to be WAY more stories like this in the next couple of years when US grads and D.O's increase in number and the number of residency spots barely budges. Devry is running a cartel and this place needs to be further investigated. Making money off people like this and plunging them into a lifetime of poverty is disgusting. This article is the epitomy of everything that is wrong with the student loan industry in this country right now. Like I've said over and over again, this is only the beginning. I am so pissed off right now I feel like making an Xtranormal video right now but I am too dang tired!!!

 

[Apollyon]

Somebody posts the old saw, "What do you call the person that finishes last in their med school class?" "Doctor!"

What else do you call them? "Defendant!"

But how does someone score an IM/Peds spot in a university program, and not even make it 2 months?

 

[TTPHUS]

This article if one can call it that is seriously flawed and extremely negatively biased . Ross has graduated almost 10 000 fully licensed doctors in every speciality . Why didnt the author mention this accomplishment ?
Due to the large classes there are bound to be people who do not make it through the process. Choosing a few examples of such people who fail and writing a horrendous article such as this one is extremely unfair . This article is loaded with inaccuracies and straw arguements . Poor writing .

 

[JackADeli]

This article if one can call it that is seriously flawed and extremely negatively biased . Ross has graduated almost 10 000 fully licensed doctors in every speciality . Why didnt the author mention this accomplishment ?...

Ok, granted there may be a negative slant. So, using apparently Ross published data, here are there "accomplishments" as a MEDICAL SCHOOL:

3,500 students enrollment/matriculation
30.6% four year graduation rate
66% SIX year graduation rate

If someone makes it through Ross, lands a residency, and becomes a great practitioner... I give credit to the individual and the residency, not the/this medical school. Ross has NO clinical training... it farms that out to US based, accredited teaching hospitals.

JAD

 

[smq123]

Agree that it's an interesting article. I would like to move it to pre-allo, where people who are trying to decide between US MD vs. DO vs. caribbean MD can read this and take this article into account.

 

[schrizto]

(I'd agree it's a little out of place in pre-allo though.)

 

[smq123]

Why move to this to pre-allo, it was a discussion about medical education and residencies, why not keep it in the general residency section where residents (both carib grads and AMGs) can discuss it.

It was an article about the quality of education you get from Ross (and Caribbean med schools in general), and how hard it is to get a residency (and stay in a residency) after coming out of one of those schools. Some of those people that the article talks about didn't even finish med school there, and aren't even eligible for residency. Again, I think that that's something that pre-meds need to consider if they're thinking about going to the Caribbean.

I think it's more important for people considering which med school to attend to read that article than it is for residents, who have already decided which med school to attend.

It's not a secret that coming out of a Caribbean med school can hurt your chances of getting a good residency. However, what many of the pre-meds who post don't seem to understand is that there's no guarantee that going to the Caribbean will even allow you to finish. Yes, you may be in the 66% of people who do graduate, but what if you're in the 34% of people who don't?

Again, most of the people in gen res have already finished, or are about to finish, med school. Being told that going to the Caribbean was a bad decision isn't helpful for those who have either graduated or are about to graduate.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I agree that the article is a bit unfair. However:

1. Ross clearly has lower acceptance standards than US medical schools. In some ways this is reasonable -- it gives people a "second chance" if their GPA is low but doesn't really reflect their full potential.

2. Because of this, their large class size, etc, it's almost certain that the failure / dropout rate at Ross will be higher than US medical schools.

3. Because loans are "guaranteed" by the US Gov't (although I remain uncertain as to what that really means), US taxpayers have some vested interest in the default rate. Exactly how high the default rate should be "allowed" to be is unclear.

4. Most ross grads take more than 4 years to graduate not because they fail something, but because Ross does not have enough clinical rotations. Hence, some students end up waiting for a rotation to be open for them. This is a fault of Ross -- they should simply take less students so they have enough rotations for all of them.

5. The reports of poor rotations / poor training is concerning. I have worked with a few Ross grads and all have done well, but I can't imagine trying to keep track of the quality of all rotations when students are rotating in many different locations.

 

[JackADeli]

...I would like to move it to pre-allo, where people who are trying to decide between US MD vs. DO vs. caribbean MD can read this and take this article into account.

Why move to this to pre-allo, it was a discussion about medical education and residencies, why not keep it in the general residency section where residents (both carib grads and AMGs) can discuss it.

I think this is a topic posted by a medical student and not a premed... It does have impact on those that are at Ross and potential residency issues. I think leaving it in general residency forum is reasonable.

...I think that that's something that pre-meds need to consider if they're thinking about going to the Caribbean.

I think it's more important for people considering which med school to attend to read that article ...

If someone here thinks a parallel discussion may be useful in pre-med forums, I am certain they can easily post a new thread for that group.

scratch that idea....

You really do not need to strip this one out of General residency issues forum.

apparently you do....

It has implications at all levels, be it med-students you may be rotating with in clinicals or even your fellow residents...

Those are just my opinions. I guess the decision to move is a judgement call, but...

JAD

 

[smq123]

4. Most ross grads take more than 4 years to graduate not because they fail something, but because Ross does not have enough clinical rotations. Hence, some students end up waiting for a rotation to be open for them. This is a fault of Ross -- they should simply take less students so they have enough rotations for all of them.

5. The reports of poor rotations / poor training is concerning. I have worked with a few Ross grads and all have done well, but I can't imagine trying to keep track of the quality of all rotations when students are rotating in many different locations.

In some ways, it may be the fault of Ross, but I also wonder about the people who decided to go.

A 52 year old (who I assume was in his 40s at the time he matriculated) is, in my view, old enough to ask more penetrating questions about job placement, etc. The 20-somethings who flake out after a few semesters because there are no shopping malls or movie theaters also should have thought about that BEFORE they went....although perhaps spending too much time at shopping malls and movie theaters is why their GPA and MCAT scores were on the low side.....

I think the answers are readily available out there, but a lot of prospective students aren't asking the right questions.

 

[JackADeli]

I am posting this here...

Actually wasn't posting here... thus wrong audience...

Regards,
JAD

 

[ahowardmd]

Every time the issue of Caribbean medical schools comes up, we get a whole bunch of people flaming and a few others that back up the school; thus the issue seems foggy, with pre-med ego's getting in the way, but I think these cold, hard numbers really break down the issue! It's not really an issue of pre-med ego's, and the statement: "it's not the school that matters, it's the individual" doesn't cut it. Go to an American school, and they will do everything they can to see that you succeed...plus, the chances are better that you will succeed, because your stats were probably higher in the first place.

Sounds like QED for this school being a bad choice.

 

[smq123]

It does have impact on those that are at Ross and potential residency issues.

Does it?

Does telling a current Ross MS3 that his school has lousy match rates is going to affect him? It's too late for him to transfer to another school. What's he going to do about it now?

Does telling a current Ross MS4 that his clinical education left him poorly prepared for residency help him? What's he going to do about it now? Change schools? Take the MCAT again and go through med school elsewhere a 2nd time?

Does telling a current Ross MS2 that he may have to wait a year or two for a rotation site to open up, and that he made a bad decision by going there help him at all? It's kind of late for him to do anything. Even if he rocks Step 1, if his rotation sites suck and he doesn't learn anything, he still might flake out of residency.

 

[JackADeli]

Does it?...

Yes. I have read numerous WAMC posts from USA grads. Then I hear them speak about how they are good guys/gals, nice people, got poor scores, think this, that, or the other social issue should count more. I hear how the "ERAS" filtering is unfair... I think the person already at Ross needs to hear some of the fears and bias they face and understand more then the sales pitch of positivity they may be getting on the island. They need to realize, their road is harder, possibly harder then USA med-students and as such, not get distracted. They do not have a choice to be average.... many are below average thus entry to Ross. Now, while in Ross they MUST be ABOVE average. They must "rock" the USMLE. They must pound harder then ever before in their clinicals within the USA. Yes, I think it does matter.

I think I read somewhere on these forums from someone else, "no social promotion in medicine...". I think that is absolutely a requirement. These are human lives in which mistakes cause death. Poor clinical education means poor physical examination and/or diagnosis. So, "social promotion" and caribean purchased diploma will NOT be enough. Ross students need to understand that and work hard to assure they are the best they can be....

PS: I am going to limit my posting within this thread and focus on the similar/parallel thread in GenRes forum.

correction, no similar/paralell thread allowed....

 

[JonathanMD]

Interesting article and a lot of info I already knew. I'm an incoming January 2010 Ross student and my flight out to the island is tomorrow. It definitely has a negative bias, but some stats are undeniable.

My biggest problem with the article (aside from the omission of a lot of positives) is that it seems to make Ross out to be the flag bearer of all the negatives of all the Caribbean schools when in reality it's one of the top 3 schools of the Caribbean and there are MANY others with much bigger problems and/or are complete scams.

I definitely look at Ross as a second chance school. I'm 27 years old, I've definitely made my mistakes, and am glad Ross exists. My decision to go to Ross has less to do with "becoming a doctor by any means necessary" and more to do with "if you never try you never know."

But a school has lower entrance requirements, when compared to traditional schools, it's expected that many more students never graduate. On the other hand, I'd like to think that this is not only a recipe for many heartbreaks, but also many success stories of people who really got their act together, gave it everything they've got, and earned their way into becoming a doctor. Ross students have to take and pass all the same tests that everyone else has to take and pass. (It might be easier to get in, but it's equally difficult to graduate.)

Some people flippantly say that Ross & SGU grads are "second-rate doctors." I take exception to this statement. If you want to say that I'm a "second-rate undergrad student" I'll gladly take that criticism on the chin. But on completion of graduation from either Ross or SGU, once you've proven that you've really got things under control personally and academically, Ross & SGU grads are just as qualified to be a physician as their US counterparts.

I say this because I've known and worked with a Ross alumnus in the past for years. He was one of the best doctors I've ever met and I've met and worked with dozens. I'd like to think that he's one of those success stories.

Statistics definitely aren't on my side, but at this point I'm not worrying about statistics (or the student next to me for that matter).

 

[smq123]

Yes. I have read numerous WAMC posts from USA grads. Then I hear them speak about how they are good guys/gals, nice people, got poor scores, think this, that, or the other social issue should count more. I hear how the "ERAS" filtering is unfair... I think the person already at Ross needs to hear some of the fears and bias they face and understand more then the sales pitch of positivity they may be getting on the island. They need to realize, their road is harder, possibly harder then USA med-students and as such, not get distracted. They do not have a choice to be average.... many are below average thus entry to Ross. Now, while in Ross they MUST be ABOVE average. They must "rock" the USMLE. They must pound harder then ever before in their clinicals within the USA. Yes, I think it does matter.

I think I read somewhere on these forums from someone else, "no social promotion in medicine...". I think that is absolutely a requirement. These are human lives in which mistakes cause death. Poor clinical education means poor physical examination and/or diagnosis. So, "social promotion" and caribean purchased diploma will NOT be enough. Ross students need to understand that and work hard to assure they are the best they can be....

I agree with what you're saying. I'm not saying that none of this is important.

But what I am saying is that gen res is, for the most part, geared towards residents, fellows, and MS4s (and MS3s, to a lesser extent). Yes, they have to blow Step 1 away....but for your average MS4, who took Step 1 a few years ago, that advice is a little late. And yes, they need to work extra hard on their rotations....but again, for your average MS4, that advice is a little late as well.

The biggest sales pitch of positivity goes out to the pre-meds. Even if they do try to put a happy face on everything, an astute MS3 and MS4 should be able to recognize that the reality (i.e. anecdotal evidence about old friends failing out of residency or not getting a residency at all) contradicts the propaganda that they're hearing.

I moved the thread because I think that the people who benefit the most from hearing about the cautionary tales coming out of Ross are those who are in the position to choose. You can choose to try and bump up your MCAT more and get into a DO school. You can choose to throw medicine away entirely. You can choose to become a nurse instead.

If you're already an MS1 or an MS2 at Ross, I'm sorry, but you're trapped. They may have sold you a fake bill of goods, but there isn't much you can do about it now except do your best - which is what ALL med students need to strive to do anyway, whether they be US allopathic students, DO students, or Carib students.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I agree with smq123 that this thread is not best placed in the Gen Res forum and was appropriately moved.

While med students, residents and attendings may find the topic of interest, it is not a "General Residency" topic. That forum is not designed to be the garbage can where anything and everything can be tossed.

The topic of the quality of a Ross medical education is of MOST interest to Pre-Med students who are struggling with the decision about where to go to medical school and indeed, even IF to go.

Opening a duplicate thread in Gen Res is a TOS violation and fails to recognize that the forums are designated by topic not by audience. Therefore, anyone who wishes to follow and contribute to a thread may do so, regardless of forum. Placing it into the Gen Res forum does not make the thread a Gen Res topic.

A poll shows that the majority of users in the Gen Res forum ask that topics be restricted to residency issues despite the vocality of some users to the contrary.

 

[CapnCrunch]

Seems to have acquired a lot of attention. Look at the comments below.

 

[JackADeli]

...But how does someone score an IM/Peds spot in a university program, and not even make it 2 months?

Why move to this to pre-allo, it was a discussion about medical education and residencies, why not keep it in the general residency section where residents (both carib grads and AMGs) can discuss it.

...(I'd agree it's a little out of place in pre-allo though.)

The getting into University Med/pedes slot and flunking out is NOT a GenRes issue.

It was an article about the quality of education you get from Ross ...and how hard it is to get a residency (and stay in a residency) after coming out of one of those schools. Some of those people that the article talks about didn't even finish med school there, and aren't even eligible for residency...

I think it's more important for people considering which med school to attend to read that article than it is for residents...

I agree with what you're saying. I'm not saying that none of this is important...

...I moved the thread because I think that the people who benefit the most from hearing about the cautionary tales coming out of Ross are those who are in the position to choose. You can choose to try and bump up your MCAT more and get into a DO school. You can choose to throw medicine away entirely. You can choose to become a nurse instead...

I suspect folks applying Caribean do so after their GPAs & MCATS are done and the interviews/offers are not coming in and they want to be an MD. Will leave this thread for the premeds.... most of whom have pretty much set their GPAs, etc...

OK, got the message.

 

[Winged Scapula]

The getting into University Med/pedes slot and flunking out is NOT a GenRes issue.I suspect folks applying Caribean do so after their GPAs & MCATS are done and the interviews/offers are not coming in and they want to be an MD. Will leave this thread for the premeds.... most of whom have pretty much set their GPAs, etc...

OK, got the message.

That's exactly what you SHOULDN'T do.

One of the main benefits of SDN is that pre meds, med students, allied health students, etc. have access to those on the road ahead of them: residents, fellows, attendings, etc.

For some reason, users think they need to restrict themselves to forums which describe them. I'd counter that the pre-meds here BENEFIT from hearing your wise words and experiences on working with Ross grads, your thoughts on the article, even as it relates to residency (or however you wish to speak about it).

So please don't stop posting in the thread because you think it is restricted to pre-meds. If anything your input is more valuable than theirs given you have more experience in working with Ross students and grads.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

This article if one can call it that is seriously flawed and extremely negatively biased . Ross has graduated almost 10 000 fully licensed doctors in every speciality . Why didnt the author mention this accomplishment ?
Due to the large classes there are bound to be people who do not make it through the process. Choosing a few examples of such people who fail and writing a horrendous article such as this one is extremely unfair . This article is loaded with inaccuracies and straw arguements . Poor writing .

Disagree completely. This article does a great job.

It (a) demonstrates the problems of a Ross "education" with hard data on graduation rates (from the school itself so no claims of negatively skewed data can be made) as well as publicly-available financial data on the school's for-profit nature. It then (b) adds a "humanistic" touch by interviewing/portraying individual Ross graduates and their struggles.

The article also points out the need to question the legitimacy of these schools, since they receive so much federal funding.

 

[JonathanMD]

What's sad is that is Ross is considered one of the "Top 4" of Caribbean med schools and still has such horrible results at 4 and 6 years out. While the other Caribbean schools may be even worse, what does it say when one of the standard bearers provides this crappy of an education with little recourse for those who invested in.

While I understand that some people have difficulties getting into med school, going to Ross does not and should not equal redemption. Further, why should US taxpayers be investing their tax money in financing education for a group of rejects who couldn't get into any American school when the graduation rate and matching rates aren't very good. Seems like a waste of taxpayer money.

While I have worked with residents from Caribbean schools and have had good experiences, I still rate their education as 2nd rate and feel they succeeded in spite of their education which many of them have told me as well. While I don't view Caribbean grads as second tier physicians I continue to believe that they should be viewed as second tier residency applicants and not match untill all AMG's have filled.

That's fair to say.

Like I said, I'm just starting and haven't been through the whole process myself. I'm also not going to defend the school in areas where its not perfect.

Let me just say that I've done my research on the school before choosing to go and that decision wasn't made lightly. (Attending seminars, speaking to current students, contacting current alumni through the alumni network.) If any other students out there are considering going to Ross (or SGU or AUC), I suggest you do the same.

The one thing that's been hammered into my head is the idea of "personal responsibility" when it comes to every stage of a Ross education. From the people I've talked to -- for those who have been active in their own education, making sure everything is on track -- they seem to be doing very well. My point is, whenever you encounter a Ross student or graduate, I think it's only fair to judge them on an individual basis (not a statistical one), much more so than their U.S. counterparts.

 

[JackADeli]

That's exactly what you SHOULDN'T do....So please don't stop posting in the thread because you think it is restricted to pre-meds. If anything your input is more valuable than theirs given you have more experience in working with Ross students and grads.

I am feeling the warmth and love😍

...The article also points out the need to question the legitimacy of these schools, since they receive so much federal funding.

I think this is the point that we need to consider and consider carefully. I appreciate the concept of redemption. But, let's really consider what we are dealing with, cause this "rehab program" is costing $150+million per year to produce, after 6 years, 60+% graduation rate of which only 20% can obtain a residency!!! We don't know what the residency completion rate is... I don't think any USA based med-school would last very long with around 40% fail rate/6yrs (70% fail to complete at 4yrs).... especially if you can reasonably predict a very high fail rate based on your candidate selection pool.

Before I proceed with my next line of very painful commentary, I again want to say I have worked with some very good Ross physicians.

Now, let's consider the backwards nature of what amounts to a "government"/"socialized" approach to medical education called Ross.... Everyone remember being graded on a "curve" in undergrad? Maybe you only got 75% actually right on your Organic Chem final. Yet, that 75% got you the B+/A- on the curve.... So, how about the Ross applicant who's GPA is at a "C"or "B-" level? What percent correct did they get on the Organic Chem final, 45-50%? This individual takes the MCAT and scores relatively at the bottom/left of the bell curve compared to US med-school applicants. All of these factors suggest a significantly less basic "fund of knowledge" (for you interns and rotating med-students, remember those words) as they are actually ADVANCED to graduate school (aka medical school).

Now, you put all these remedial kids (less fund of knowledge) together in one massive program. I suspect Ross has some courses graded on a curve too (though I could be wrong). The top performer on a Ross curve is probably a generally low performer in the States. This is quite backwards isn't it? Think about it, folks go for freshman undergrad year at big state schools with 150+ students in large auditoriums. Numerous don't do well and.... go to community college, smaller classes, more personalized attention. In the Ross model.... backwards.

...The one thing that's been hammered into my head is the idea of "personal responsibility" when it comes to every stage of a Ross education...

I am all for "personal responsibility".... But, Ross stating that is like a crack dealer chastising the crack whoe for prostitution. They recruit from the desperate, undergrad pool, mostly composed of folks that have proved for several years an incapacity for independent/self directed/disciplined learning... Then, they say it's all about "personal responsibility" while collecting 100s of millions of dollars churning folks through class after class... Ross functioning under the "personal responsibility" mantra is their way of washing their hands of accountability.

Now, let me add some caveats.... I do know some folks that were very high scorers in undergrad, but for one reason or another could not land a US non-island MD/DO med-school and gambled for Ross. My experience is those are the exceptions. And again, should taxpayer dollars go towards this gamble and hope on the wind to fulfill your dream to be an MD? Think about it.... only around 60+% graduation rate even after 6 years and only 20% will get into residency... I think that $150+million could easily be put towards any number of new US based med-schools, US based medical school scholarships, etc.....

What's worse is that the only way to truely make Ross a magnet for ~"qualified" candidates would be to make it free... The current set-up can not be called recruitment so much as a swap meet sales market....

JAD

 

[QofQuimica]

This is a PM that I sent to a user a while back, which I thought would be appropriate for this discussion. The person was a grad student considering the Caribbean who asked me why I thought it was a bad idea. Most of the arguments I made are similar to the ones in the article or that others have already posted, but I think I framed some of them in a different enough way to make it worth subjecting all of you to my thoughts. 😉

********

I'm not any kind of expert on Caribbean schools, having never seriously researched them let alone attended one. With that caveat, I honestly think that going to the Caribbean should be the absolute *last* resort for anyone.

It's completely unsurprising that the Caribbean grads you have met are doing well; by virtue of the fact that they are here, we can safely conclude that they were among the best students in their entire class. As a grad student, you don't need me to tell you how high the attrition is in PhD programs. Caribbean med schools are the same way: a significant number of people who matriculate don't finish. The fates of all these folks who were weeded out are not known; they certainly don't show up on any Caribbean school's match lists as unmatched! Now, consider how different this situation is compared to the situation in American med schools, where nearly *everyone* who starts med school graduates, and nearly *everyone* who graduates matches to an American residency. Consider also that a grad student who drops out out of their PhD program has lost some time, but that's about it. In contrast, a Caribbean med student who drops out or flunks out not only loses the time, but is also carrying six figures' worth of debt with no prospect of a high-paying job to help pay it all back. They may also have issues with borrowing enough money to fund their education in the first place, since they may not be eligible for all of the normal US education loans.

The picture gets even bleaker when you look at the trends in undergraduate medical education in this country. I would not suggest relying on the well-intentioned advice from these residents you know, not only because of the substantial selection bias I already discussed, but also because the odds you would face as an offshore applicant would be much worse than the odds they faced. In the near future, it is going to get harder than ever for students from offshore schools to come to the US for residency. Those that do successfully match will have a harder time matching into the more competitive specialties.

The reason for this is because of how many new American schools are opening (and how many established schools are expanding their class sizes). I'm from Florida. In my state alone, we've gone from having four MD schools and one DO school when I applied in 2005, to six MD schools (seven if you count FAU as separate from Miami) and two DO schools in 2009. This is a national trend, not just a Florida trend. More new American MD and DO schools and branch campuses have been opening every year since I've been a med student, more are scheduled to open in the next few years, and many schools now have larger class sizes. When you consider that the number of residency slots has largely stayed stable, you can see where I'm going here. In short, by the time you graduate med school in 5+ years, you will be competing for residency slots with the highest number of American grads in history.

So, what would I suggest you do instead? Stay here. Go to any accredited four year school, and do an informal post bac to rehabilitate your grades. Retake any courses you made Ds or Fs in. Complete any missing prereqs. Get at least 3 straight semesters of 3.8+ GPA under your belt if you want to apply to MD schools. If you want to apply to DO schools, you can do that even faster, since AACOMAS lets you replace bad grades rather than averaging them like AMCAS does. Probably 1-2 semesters would be enough to retake most or all of the courses you did poorly in (C or less), which would mean one year off before applying to DO schools. Study for the MCAT and aim for a 30+. Spend some time shadowing physicians or otherwise getting clinical experience, and ideally, spend some time volunteering as well.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being a Caribbean grad, and the ones who have made it here are completely equal to every American-trained physician. But never forget that you're only seeing the best-case scenario, not the total picture that includes all of the people who leave Caribbean schools (voluntarily or involuntarily) with nothing to show for it but their debt. Why would you rush to take the risk of being one of the substantial number of people who doesn't make it from a Caribbean school, *especially* when you haven't even tried to rehabilitate your academic record to give yourself a realistic shot at going to med school here?

 

[JonathanMD]

I am all for "personal responsibility".... But, Ross stating that is like a crack dealer chastising the crack whoe for prostitution. They recruit from the desperate, undergrad pool, mostly composed of folks that have proved for several years an incapacity for independent/self directed/disciplined learning... Then, they say it's all about "personal responsibility" while collecting 100s of millions of dollars churning folks through class after class... Ross functioning under the "personal responsibility" mantra is their way of washing their hands of accountability.

I think you misunderstand (or are just using my remark as a launching pad for something that's been on your chest).

When I say "personal responsibility," I don't say it as a virtue. I say it as a complaint that successful students are forced to overcome.

 

[JackADeli]

I think you misunderstand ...When I say "personal responsibility," I don't say it as a virtue. I say it as a complaint that successful students are forced to overcome.

I was not reading a positive or negative component to your expressed experience. I was simply expressing my interpretation of what Ross was doing when citing "personal responsibility".... Again, it wasn't a you thing.👍

 

[MichaelRW]

I agree that the article is a bit unfair. However:

1. Ross clearly has lower acceptance standards than US medical schools. In some ways this is reasonable -- it gives people a "second chance" if their GPA is low but doesn't really reflect their full potential.

2. Because of this, their large class size, etc, it's almost certain that the failure / dropout rate at Ross will be higher than US medical schools.

3. Because loans are "guaranteed" by the US Gov't (although I remain uncertain as to what that really means), US taxpayers have some vested interest in the default rate. Exactly how high the default rate should be "allowed" to be is unclear.

4. Most ross grads take more than 4 years to graduate not because they fail something, but because Ross does not have enough clinical rotations. Hence, some students end up waiting for a rotation to be open for them. This is a fault of Ross -- they should simply take less students so they have enough rotations for all of them.

5. The reports of poor rotations / poor training is concerning. I have worked with a few Ross grads and all have done well, but I can't imagine trying to keep track of the quality of all rotations when students are rotating in many different locations.

Hear! Hear! I especially agree with the opinion that their attrition rate can be attributed to the lower level students that they accept. Though this may not account for everyone, I'm certain that it does have significance