Interesting article

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Originally posted by mommd2b
You can go to all of the little statisitics sites that google will hand you, but the real 'proof' is what the market is paying physicians. Also, consider that many of the stats are after someone has been in practice for many years and is established as a partner..

BTW...MacGyver, lets dispel your Canada myth...thanks for the links...now here is some info for you:
[/B]


Isn't this basically saying, lets throw out statistical evidence and only rely on anecdotal evidence? I am really baffled on how you expect people to believe that all Canadians are making tons of money based upon a couple of job postings.

~AS1~
 
Originally posted by AlternateSome1
Isn't this basically saying, lets throw out statistical evidence and only rely on anecdotal evidence? I am really baffled on how you expect people to believe that all Canadians are making tons of money based upon a couple of job postings.
I think those postings above are on the high end, because they are designed to lure doctors to underserviced areas. Here are some more representative stats, for Ontario doctors. My earlier points stand, l think - most Canadians doctors are paid very adequately, but are not super-rich (these are before taxes and overhead are deducted). (New medical graduates are likely to have much less debt from their education, too).

Avg OHIP Billings
2000/01 Physician Income Characteristics

Code Specialty Average Gross Billings Average Gross > $50K Median Billings 75th Percentile OHD/Gross
---------- ($000s) ---------- (%)
[Avg] [Avg>50k][Medn][75ptile] [% OHD]
00 General Practice $167.8 $197.8 $165.4 $240.5 41.0
01 Anaesthesia $212.1 $231.4 $217.0 $273.4 18.1
02 Dermatology $268.5 $292.9 $274.2 $372.3 41.9
03 General Surgery $260.5 $303.6 $266.0 $371.5 35.8
04 Neurosurgery $270.2 $308.7 $271.7 $389.6 41.5
06 Orthopaedic Surgery $263.2 $298.6 $279.4 $386.9 36.8
07 Geriatrics $93.0 $148.4 $69.6 $149.0 33.7
08 Plastic Surgery $224.6 $256.2 $242.9 $310.8 43.0
09 Thoracic & CV Sx $445.5 $463.0 $407.3 $581.9 26.5
12 Emergency Medicine $104.0 $134.1 $86.1 $142.3 21.8
13 Internal Medicine $253.6 $302.4 $204.1 $360.6 35.4
18 Neurology $219.5 $253.4 $189.7 $331.0 34.8
19 Psychiatry $146.7 $174.7 $138.5 $206.3 28.6
20 ObGyn $280.9 $314.4 $289.9 $398.8 40.9
23 Ophthalmology $352.3 $396.7 $357.7 $471.4 35.3
24 Otolaryngology $328.1 $361.8 $344.0 $466.3 44.8
26 Paediatrics $175.8 $224.5 $170.0 $266.1 41.3
28 Lab Medicine $52.6 $207.8 $8.2 $41.0 18.9*
31 PM&R$162.2 $189.4 $133.2 $215.1 37.6
33 Diagnostic Radiology $732.9 $768.7 $709.6 $1,000.1 76.2*
34 Therapeutic Radiology $92.8 $103.5 $92.5 $113.5 15.9*
35 Urology $293.0 $321.6 $322.1 $396.9 39.0
41 Gastroenterology $363.0 $373.8 $384.8 $455.3 32.0
47 Respiratory Diseases $342.6 $371.2 $321.4 $432.8 32.2
48 Rheumatology $166.3 $178.6 $174.8 $213.7 37.8
60 Cardiology $496.0 $537.6 $464.9 $655.2 29.4
61 Haematology $143.8 $173.2 $149.6 $204.2 27.4
63 Nuclear Medicine $875.3 $918.0 $835.3 $1,152.7 76.2*
64 General Thor Sx $263.8 $298.2 $277.7 $372.5 32.8

a Specialists Only $271.5 $319.0 $217.6 $364.4 33.3*
b All $219.8 $259.1 $185.1 $287.3 37.4*

Notes: [1] Net Income Before Taxes are calculated based on OHIP Average Gross Billings.
* Estimates of OHD/Gross Expense Ratio.
MOHLTC datatapes INCLUDE threshold adjustments, and any clawbacks associated with technical fees.


Sources: 1) OHIP Billing Data are from the MOHLTC Data Files for the fiscal year 2000/01 extracted by Deptment of Economics, January 16, 2002
2) Statistics Canada: OHD/Gross Ratio for Self-Employed Physicians, 1997 Tax Year.
 
I think those postings above are on the high end, because they are designed to lure doctors to underserviced areas.

I agree...I was using it as an example to show that the high salaries like that are indeed possible. Also, only one of the posts was for 600k...the others were much lower.

Let me just add though, that you would be very hard-pressed in the US to find a pediatrician earning

$175.8 $224.5 $170.0 $266

or an internist earning

$253.6 $302.4 $204.1 $360.6


Even if Canadian docs are paying more taxes, they appear to be doing just about as well as their US counterparts....in some specialties, they may be doing even better...😱
 
mommd,

You know I see all these ads in newspapers saying that I can make a million dollars a year by working at home.

You know as well as I do that job ads cant be taken at face value.
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
After all, if I'm the fed govt and I want to cut spending, why pay doctors $100,000 when I can pay them $50,000? Why pay them $50,000 when I can pay them $30,000? After all the national average is only 25k or so, so paying doctors $30k still puts them above average.

Thats the kind of logic you will have to deal with under a universal system.

False logic. (Although I wouldn't put it past the US government to allow something like that to happen if health care was in their control).

You make it sound as though doctors become scum of the earth under nationalized systems. Realize that in Canada health care workers form unions that have tremendous negotiating power and that the physician compensation rates are carefully negotiated between the provinces and the unions. Its simple: if the government ever chose to drop wages that low, there would be a physician walkout and the health care system would collapse- and we haven't hit that point in the 40 years this system has been in place. Partly because of a responsible parliament, partly because of collective negotiating.

What also separates Canada from the US is that the Canadian public sees health care as the single most important political issue (even more so than national defence or the economy). Leaders who plan to slash health care funding as you suggest will lose support very quickly and up here, we the public have the ability to toss our leaders out of office at anytime (unlike the poor Americans who are stuck for another year and a bit).

In Canada, doctors are given much greater respect than their American counterparts by the general population. Factor in this increased prestige, lower med school tuition, fewer lawsuits (the province and union has your back, and Canadians are not money hungry for lawsuits), greater personal security (health care and retirement pension, welfare guaranteed), and its quite reasonable to say that Canadian MDs enjoy a higher standard of living and better professional life than American doctors- this is far from the doomsday $20k/yr salaries you predict in a nationalized system.

Someone also alluded to this fact earlier:
Yes, statistics will show that 20 Canadian doctors leave Canada for every American doctor that comes the other way.

However, that reflects the strict licensing procedures and high standards of the Canadian system. Our hospitals would be full of doctors from around the globe if it weren't for the incredible hurdles we make foriegners go through. As far as the Canadian board is concerned, Caribbean grads, American grads, British etc. are the same thing, and they make it very difficult for anyone to enter Canada to practice. America in contrast, is essentially an open door to anyone with an MD from anywhere in the world -sure, some Canadians are money hungry enough to leave behind the public system for American dollars and will gladly walk through that opening. That 20:1 statistic has to be viewed with a grain of salt as Canada is not the hellhole many of you make it out to be.

I would agree- America may not be the place for national health care. It requires a delicate balance of politics, public support and the entire society has to revolve around the concept of good health- this complex balance is something that American lifestyle and culture may not be able to sustain when seen in the context of everything else that is "important" to Americans and their elected officials.
 
I dont have time to do it now, but tomorrow I will post a detailed statistical analysis of the numbers for Canadian docs that somebody posted above.

1. Those figures are billing figures, NOT income figures. In other words, overhead/paperwork costs have not been deducted yet. Take away at least 10% of those figures for overhead.

2. Those figures are pre-tax, since all doctors except EM fall in the highest Canadian tax bracket, take away 43.7% of that money.

3. The physician salary surveys done in the united states are net income, before taxes, AFTER malpractice insurance and all overhead/paperwork costs have been taken out.

4. Those figures are in Canadian dollars, not US dollar equivalents. 1 US dollar = 1.3862 Canadian dollars


The effects of #1, 3, and 4 are what cause US salaries to be drastically higher than Canadian salaries. You will see tomorrow when I put the numbers side by side.
 
"At the end of the day, these costs will be passed on to you, the consumer with healthcare insurance.....in the form of increased costs and higher insurance premiums."

I suppose your right. Score one for making sure emlpoyers provide health care.

"No one should have to, but there are adults who are...screw ups, as you say...who maybe grew up in a different environment and had a different kind of a life....who perhaps have learning disabilities or other kinds of life issues holding them back. Maybe they were the kids in your classes that fell between the cracks.. What do they deserve? I know that we don't want them all sucking off of the system and claiming disability, right? So if they are willing to work, why not provide benefits?"

I dont know everyone, but i meet very few people in college who try but just cant cut it. I am the president of AED at my school and its my responsibility to understand my members potential and talior the group to it. We have many studnets who try damned hard, damned hard, and simply cannot learn organic or simply cannot break 25 on the mcat. You know what happens to them? The become nurses or podiatrist or something and still make great money. You can give a kid with downs syndrome a mop and i motivated (and they all seem to be) an he wil be damned good janitor. Normal common "joe sombodies" have no bussiness settling for those types of jobs.

But, still, wether its their fault or not doesnt change anything financialy for the US or me so the right thing to do may still be to ensure health care is provided for all fulltime work.


"Do they deserve this because they are working in professions that are less-regarded?"

Not less regarded. Jobs that truly mentaly disable people chould still do. A janitor has no bussiness having kids. I feel bad for saying it, but I think its the truth. When somone has a child they make a choice. They must evaluate their life and honestly asses whether they wil be able to provide for their kids.

"Hey...good for you...I speak as a 33 year old mom of three and for my 38 year old husband...we own 0% of any company because we've been using all of our financial resources to survive medical school, residency and fellowship and now to pay off massive loans"

What makes you able to do it? Did god give you a mission? No, You just have you **** toether. You have set an ambitious but attainable goal and your are on your way to achiving it. You deserve all of the security and rewards, financial and otherwise, that will be yours. You simply made a choice. You are 33 with kids so you obviously went silver spoon and secret handshaked into your successful attidue. You just made a choice. Why cant others choose to not accept failure?



Holy crap, those number were Gross Billings?
My dad was two other docs in his pracitce (OB/gyn) and he has 18 full time staff!
More importantly, to add to McGyvers list of deductions..billings do not equal revenue. You would be assuming everyone pays their bills. As Mom has pointed out, this is quite offeten not the case. My dads pracitce, as a whole, has an acounts recivable (money billed but not recieved) of 250K at any given time. Some of thet ends up being paid after years, some never is recouped and most goes to collection and gets all of the profit in the bill striped away by collection fees.
 
God i would like to do ortho or peds ortho but the more italk about this stuff the more appealing cosmetic surgury sounds. Cash cash cash. And the better you are the better your reputation the richer your clientel the more you make. Hard as all hell to get into a plastics residency but there is not better embodiment of my "work = reward" philosophy. I would just rather be with children..
 
as interesting as this discussion is getting, I really think that you all are missing the whole point here. The real engine behind medicine is a strong and vibrant pharmaceutical industry. A government run, single payer health plan would necessitate price controls on drug makers (as they have in Europe, Canada and some parts of Asia). What this will do is virtually eliminate any patent benefits and profits, and will completely stall any innovations in medicinal drugs. The second this happens, we're all done, because medicine will have come to a screeching halt as we know it. Let me ask you this, when was the last time Canada, Spain or Germany produced, nursed, and wholly supported a new blockbuster drug? The fact is that the United States is the only growth engine for new, life saving medicines, and that is because this is the only country where drug makers can ever hope to have protected patents and protected profits for a period of exclusivity. This is the only country they can hope to cash in on the billions that they invest to develop the drugs in the first place. The largest drug companies in the world are American, and the only place where the giant foreign pharmaceutical companies turn any profit is in the United States. If we socialize everything, the world will lose its only outpost for new medicines. This was one of the major points I brought up in my treatise back on page two of this thread, but everybody seems to be caught up in this physician income issue, and not in the real consequences of a single payer plan, and the ramifications of stalled health care economy, and ceased innovation.
 
A government run, single payer health plan would necessitate price controls on drug makers (as they have in Europe, Canada and some parts of Asia). What this will do is virtually eliminate any patent benefits and profits, and will completely stall any innovations in medicinal drugs. The second this happens, we're all done, because medicine will have come to a screeching halt as we know it. Let me ask you this, when was the last time Canada, Spain or Germany produced, nursed, and wholly supported a new blockbuster drug?

First of all, German companies do indeed produce new drugs...lets lay that one to bed too.
http://us.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/aging/07/12/alheimers.drug02/
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/5342464.htm
europe: http://kswellness.com/stories/112102/ksw_drug.shtml

or here's a good article:
http://www.magazine-deutschland.de/content/archiv/archiv-eng/03-02/art5.html

...Yet according to business statistics the sector is bursting with energy. With a workforce of 115,000 and a turnover of more than 22 billion euors in 2001, the German pharmaceutical industry is one of the most important centres of drug manufacturing in the world. And the high level of exports illustrates how globally oriented German pharmaceutical manufacturers are: according to the Chemical Industry Association, in 2001 alone foreign deliveries grew by over a quarter to more than 19 billion euros. This makes Germany the world?s biggest exporter of medicines, ahead of countries like the United States and the UK....

Other companies have recently managed to strengthen their position, however. Boehringer Ingelheim has progressed to the position of Germany?s biggest drug manufacturer with a turnover of more than 6 billion euros. Thanks to a number of new drugs for asthma, high blood pressure and cancer, the group expects solid growth to continue over the coming years. The Berlin-based Schering AG has become firmly established as a leading manufacturer of hormone and fertility-control products and is also strengthening its position as a specialist in fields like multiple sclerosis and cancer. Altana AG in Bad Homburg is promoting its stomach preparation Pantoprazol and several new developments to combat asthma, seeking to reinvent itself as a globally oriented pharmaceutical specialist....

Some of the Swiss Roche group?s most successful products stem from previous research carried out by Boehringer Mannheim. And when the American Abbott group recently extolled the new rheumatism drug Humira as the most important new development in its history, it did not mention the fact that most of the development work on the preparation had been carried out by researchers at the former BASF pharmaceutical division.


But if we are going to talk about stalling innovations in medicinal drugs, lets be honest here. A large portion of drug discovery happens at the university level and is supported by grants that are independent of the price of drugs. As to new medications that are coming out of the US...a lot of the 'new' drugs are simply old drugs that have been tweaked here or there...they aren't really the brand new 'magic bullets' that the pharmaceutical industry professes that they are. 😉


Why is it that in this country, the cost of drugs is absolutely ridiculously high...so high that many elderly simply can't afford them...and yet we ship these drugs off to other countries for much less money? Maybe we should reverse this? Instead of making Americans pay for the development, we should make other countries pay more money for our drugs? Things that make you go hmm...maybe it is because their market wouldn't support our high prices? At the end of the day, mark-up on drugs in this country is staggering and unnecessary...it goes to pay for things like overwhelmingly high CEO salaries, direct advertising to the public (so your patients can come in and demand meds that are not appropriate for them or have serious side effects...but hey..they saw it on tv, so it must be 'good') and for pharmaceutical events like taking docs out to dinner, etc, etc.... I wonder how much less expensive we could make our drugs and still afford to pay our CEOs nice enough salaries?


At the end of the day, everyone screams that the market dictates the price....but it isn't true...the market is screaming that people who need the drugs can't afford them...people are getting their drugs from Mexico and Canada because they can't PAY the price that the US companies are demanding of its US citizens...so people go without drugs, become very ill and then require expensive hospitalization.

Here is the deal...it is all about priorities and what we as a society think is important. What use are the new drug innovations anyway if people can't afford to use them? Do we invest more money in our politicians, in our bombs and wars all over the world, in sending money to other countries to help support them, or do we get more serious about issues facing this country....like health care.

I bet that few people here raised an eyebrow when the announcements came about increasing the size of our military and adding billions to the military budget annually...and noone will wince when thanks to the 2003 blackout electircity becomes a bit more expensive as we modernize....we see it as 'important'....But because we are all young right now and need (most of us) less in terms of healthcare and medications, we don't understand the problems that many people are facing. When we get there, it will be too late for us...

kris
 
I dont know everyone, but i meet very few people in college who try but just cant cut it. I am the president of AED at my school and its my responsibility to understand my members potential and talior the group to it. We have many studnets who try damned hard, damned hard, and simply cannot learn organic or simply cannot break 25 on the mcat. You know what happens to them? The become nurses or podiatrist or something and still make great money. You can give a kid with downs syndrome a mop and i motivated (and they all seem to be) an he wil be damned good janitor. Normal common "joe sombodies" have no bussiness settling for those types of jobs.

Well, I'm not talking about the 20% of Americans that go to college....or the 15.5% that actually finish getting a bachelor's degree😉 I'm talking about the larger majority that do not....I'm doubting that 85% of our population is...'downs syndrome' or borderline ******ed 🙄 ...although, it would explain how Bush got into office 😀 (hehehehehe)

You are working with the minority of Americans who have selected themselves out to get into college and will hopefully succeed and they are a different group than the other people who never make it there. As to the give a kid with Downs a mop and let him work at those kinds of jobs...do you really believe that our work force at places like McDonalds, Target, School Maintenance (not just janitorial duties, btw), etc can be completely supported by people who are truly mentally ******ed :wow: I support the idea of putting people with disabilities in these kinds of jobs....but you can forget your drive-thrus and quick service...Not only that...think of the money lost thru mistakes that would be made. So you also think that someone with an IQ significantly below average would be a good person to have roaming your schools cleaning up and doing repair work? Who would redirect them, help them reason out what they need to do, etc, etc....

A janitor has no bussiness having kids. I feel bad for saying it, but I think its the truth. When somone has a child they make a choice. They must evaluate their life and honestly asses whether they wil be able to provide for their kids.

To be quite honest, you should feel bad for saying it. Who does deserve to have children? Perhaps we should decide based on salary....or education...so...since only 15.5% of the population actually finishes college (bachelors) then only they deserve to have children? That seems a little too...rigid...maybe we could go by income...if joe schmoe who is uneducated manages to land a good job, should we say that 35,000$ is the cut-off? Oh, wait..there are college grads out there that don't quite cut that salary...think teachers, etc...hmmmm...We really are in a quandry now, aren't we....perhaps we could turn to our old friend Hitler and ask him how he felt about the 'chosen' people? 😉 He might be able to point us in the right direction.

This man works in maintenance full-time year round and his wife works as a secretary as a radio station...something, btw, that a mentally ******ed person could not do. Here is the catch...their combined income does NOT fall into the level of poverty ascribed in this country..they owned a home AND they were among the lucky ones to actually HAVE health insurance. By all objective outside evaluations, they were most definately in a position to have children....they had steady incomes that were adequate enough to own a home, had insurance and two cars....they just didn't realize that their health insurance would suck balls when they really needed it.

What makes you able to do it? Did god give you a mission? No, You just have you **** toether. You have set an ambitious but attainable goal and your are on your way to achiving it. You deserve all of the security and rewards, financial and otherwise, that will be yours. You simply made a choice. You are 33 with kids so you obviously went silver spoon and secret handshaked into your successful attidue. You just made a choice. Why cant others choose to not accept failure?

You know what makes me able to do it? Luck, I think...or maybe a personal drive...I'm not as lucky as my brother, who is one of those 30 year old 'losers' undeserving of actually continuing to live in the eyes of most people here, it appears. If you knew about my history and the way that I grew up and the things that I experienced, you'd realize that I had truly beaten some major odds...I have been lucky...and I am not one of the people who makes it out of the $hithole and looks back and spits on those who didn't...I realize how hard it was...and tell myself all of the time "there but for the grace of God go I". I'm not arrogant enough to think that because I did it everyone should be able to....I am damned lucky to be at the place in my life that I am...statistically, I shouldn't be here. It was not a 'simple' choice....we don't choose to not accept failure anymore than we choose to be failures...some people never make it out no matter how hard they try...I don't know why I got this lucky, but I would never look back on those who didn't make it with disdain...because I know how hard it is. I look back with a hand outstretched....willing to help pull more people up..
 
mommd,

You know I see all these ads in newspapers saying that I can make a million dollars a year by working at home.

You know as well as I do that job ads cant be taken at face value.

MacGyver,

Here is my advice to you....right now, run out and get married, have children, buy a house...do it all...because you are one of the lucky ones that has hit a point in his life where he knows it ALL...go and do these things while you still have all of the answers....because before you know it, life will become less black and white and all of those answers that you thought that you had will be much more 'gray'....life gets harder...so since you already have everything figured out...do it all now. 😀

kris
 
Originally posted by mommd2b
First of all, German companies do indeed produce new drugs...lets lay that one to bed too.

Read closely, because this is not what I wrote. Sure there are companies like Bayer, but they make most of their PROFITS here in the States, because Europe has price controls. Foreign companies like Bayer, Glaxo and Aventis could not surivive and innovate without the U.S.


A large portion of drug discovery happens at the university level and is supported by grants that are independent of the price of drugs.

This is a complete fabrication. What Universities cooked up Lipitor and Priolosec? Do you have any evidence to substantiate your claims?

Why is it that in this country, the cost of drugs is absolutely ridiculously high

I already answered this question. This is because in Europe they have PRICE CONTROLS. This is exactly where we are headed if we embark on the socialist path to darkness. Price controls will stifle ALL innovation. The fact is that domestic and foreign drug companies make much of their profits in the U.S., because we protect and enforce their patents. If we become like Europe and Canada, which is what you propound, then we will be relegated to the same technological and medical stagnation that they suffer from.

At the end of the day, mark-up on drugs in this country is staggering and unnecessary.

Unfortunately these markeups are what profits are made of, and profits are the only impetus that keep pharmaceutical companies innovating and searching for live saving medicines. If you stop the profits by not honoring patents the way Europe does, then there is no reason for drug companies to invest the billions they need to in order to find new drugs. Those overpaid CEOs and overpaid scientists and wealthy demanding shareholders that you hold in contempt are the ones that push companies to open new avenues of innovation, and to discover the medicines that will one day save our lives.


people are getting their drugs from Mexico and Canada because they can't PAY the price that the US companies are demanding of its US citizens...

We covered this already, the consequences are clear.
 
We covered this already, the consequences are clear.

Then can you think of any good solutions? I'm not arrogant enough to suggest that I know what is the 'right' thing to do...I don't have all of the answers...not even close...but what I do know is that things are not working as they are right now.

How would you suggest changing things so that innovation is able to continue, but drugs are affordable for those who need them? Also, despite drug controls, innovation is continuing in europe.
 
"I'm not arrogant enough to think that because I did it everyone should be able to...."


???? Arronance is saying that other people can't do it. I belive in people. I belive that 90% of the population could go to college if they simply had the drive. I am humbled by how unremarkable what i have done is and how common it could be. Once you start denying that others have the potential...thats arrogant. Saying that we need to take care of them is paternalism that demeans them instead of impowering them.


It like those asses from harvard how say "I go to school in boston" when you ask where they go. It one thing to say "I gt to harvard" ...ok cool...awsome job.

But when they say "i go to school in boston" what are they saying? "I would tell you where i go, but you cant handle it. Im better than you, and in fact im so much better, that if i told you how much better i was, you couldnt deal with it. So i have to lie to you for you own good."

"I'm doubting that 85% of our population is...'downs syndrome' or borderline ******ed"

Excatly. thats why my points are sound.

I dont think that the etire fast food industry could be run be handicaped people. But a janitor? Or the guy who cleans up at mcdonalds?

Everyjob you mentioned is one that a highschooler could do.

With regards to kids im not going to single out occupations. Im just saying parents have a responsibility. To have kids and then to rely on charity is wrong. Except in extreme cases, TEMPORARY unemloyment due to ressecion ect. If a janitor can fullfil those criteria than more power to him. But those starving kids oven in ethiopia should have never been born. Im not saying we shouldnt help them now that they ARE born. But what in the hell were those parents thinking? no contraception, no nookie.
 
"How would you suggest changing things so that innovation is able to continue, but drugs are affordable for those who need them?"

This idea of entitlement is a problem. Why shold people who cannot afford somthing neccesaraly get it. There is areality of cost. Some things are just TOO expensive. The US cannot afford to give everyone a new heart or liver who screws theirs up and cant pay for a new one. At some point we must aknolege that there are limited resorces and we have to pick who gets what. This doesnt mean than min wage istnt to low or that maybe everyone deserves some basic standard of care. But if everytime a new super expensive treatmeant come out people say "I should be able to have that" doesnt make sense.

If i developed a machine that could cure AIDS, but it ran on soo much electricity that it was 10 million a treatment would eveyrone with aids have a right to use it? At some point we do have to play god and say, "This person must live and this person must die"
Everyone CANNOT have the best of everything health care can offer.
 
I belive in people. I belive that 90% of the population could go to college if they simply had the drive.

Show me the jobs for these college grads...where will they be working and what CEO is going to give up part of his salary so that these new college grads can earn a decent living? The highest percentage of the unemployed right now are college grads. AND...if they are all busy working in 'professional' jobs, who will be managing wal-mart, working at target, doing secretarial work, changing the oil in your car, running the new small restaurant up the street, stocking the shelves at the grocery store, making your furniture and building your cars, etc? I guess that 90% can be hard at work inventing robots to do that kind of work? Who will work at your bookstores, gas stations, build your streets etc....or will they only be manned by the mentally impaired or open after school (3-9pm) so that the highschoolers can work there instead of studying or being involved in extracurricular activitites...we then will be a nation dependent completely on our teenieboppers for the necessary jobs that we're just too 'good' to do. Just becuase a job isn't the most demanding intellectually does not mean that it doesn't require a responsible adult to do.

Not being ******ed should not mean that you are still good college material...College should be reserved for those individuals with the intellectual ability...or do we now water-down all of our college courses to fit the needs of everyone....regardless of their IQ or ability? Just take a look at the bell curve...It's unfortunate that you go to a university where your academic experience is at a low enough level (unremarkable) that you feel any Tom, Dick, or Harry could be successful. It speaks volumes about our academic environment today. Or maybe, you are just so intellectually superior that what seems difficult to someone else is extremely easy for you....we'll just stick with that as the reason 😛

I believe in people too...but I also believe that people's lives sculpt them into who they are...and people growing up without adequate medical care, in poor homes where they don't see parents being successful, etc, etc...can lead to lower education and less opportunities....shall we take all of those people currently in that predicament and put them onto a little island where we dont' have to look at them or think about them and then turn our focus to the deserving? How do we get rid of that problem?


With regards to kids im not going to single out occupations. Im just saying parents have a responsibility. To have kids and then to rely on charity is wrong. Except in extreme cases, TEMPORARY unemloyment due to ressecion ect. If a janitor can fullfil those criteria than more power to him. But those starving kids oven in ethiopia should have never been born. Im not saying we shouldnt help them now that they ARE born. But what in the hell were those parents thinking? no contraception, no nookie.

Welcome to the conversation...the last 4 pages have not been about people looking for charity...they have been about hard-working, employed americans simply looking to have adequate healthcare benefits...we are also not talking about starving kids in Ethiopia...who, we btw support more than we support the needy children in this country.

Again...we are not talking about just the poorest among us who may be making poor choices...we are talking about the average american who might work at a steel mill or a factory...who might be a secretary, or a customer service representative....
 
This idea of entitlement is a problem. Why shold people who cannot afford somthing neccesaraly get it. There is areality of cost. Some things are just TOO expensive. The US cannot afford to give everyone a new heart or liver who screws theirs up and cant pay for a new one. At some point we must aknolege that there are limited resorces and we have to pick who gets what. This doesnt mean than min wage istnt to low or that maybe everyone deserves some basic standard of care. But if everytime a new super expensive treatmeant come out people say "I should be able to have that" doesnt make sense.

Who IS entitled? What are they entitled to? Is grandpa, who worked for 40 years full-time without ever taking a sick day entitled to the antibiotic that he needs to save his life? Is grandma, who worked and raised 4 children during the depression entitled to heart medication that will save her life? Or do they lose their entitlement once they hit the age of 65? Should they be denied it because they can't afford it?

Perhaps we should gather all people after they retire and set them out on the farms and just let nature take its course....unless, of course, they were born into money or happen to have enough money of their own to pay the expenses?

I completely agree with you that there should be some rationing of healthcare. A 90 year old with Alzheimer's disease and end stage cancer should not be subjected to the newest experimental chemotherapies or placed on kidney dialysis...and yet it happens all of the time. Most of our medicare dollars are spent in the last few months of someones lives....but...heck..market dictates it...people will sue if grandpa doesn't get the chance to live 2 more weeks...$hit..people will sue if grandpa has too much pain..they will also sue if grandpa gets too much pain medication at the very end and it might have cost him a day of life because the meds slowed down his breathing....so doctors will treat...not only that...think of the money the nephrologists would lose out on if grandpa's family said no to dialysis for the last month of life.

My grandmother was 86, had end-stage alzheimer's disease, cancer of the labia and was having multiple MIs. She was taken to the ER when she had an MI and by the time my mom got there, all kinds of treatment was undertaken..my mom was visibly upset and didn't feel she could just 'pull the plug' on her mom..she was horribly confused and saddened...and the cardiologist talked my mom into a heart procedure 🙄 etc...they did all kinds of ridiculous, expensive things to keep my grandmother going for a few more months....My mom would have been relieved if a doc had just come out and said to her "It's your mother's time....say your good-bye's"....so are doctors to blame just a little bit? maybe...

Also....I think that we shouldn't get an MRI every time our knee hurts, shouldn't be visiting the doctor for every cold, etc....We could be saving a lot of money...but would that mean that doctors salaries would...gasp, choke..decline a little...or that we might even need less doctors...think of the pre-meds who would freak out about the increased competition! Less procedures=less money....so there is little reason for the doc to support this.

But back to the original question, who in your eyes is 'entitled' and what makes them 'entitled'....does money/salary/prestige bring entitlement to new cancer treatment, for example...or is working full-time enough? Do you have to be a doctor to be deserving, or a wall street investor, or can you be a teacher and still be entitled...what about a daycare provider who watches all of the children of those 90% who now have degrees and have to work? What about the woman with a college degree who chooses to stay at home and be the one to raise her children during the early years. Is she entitled?
 
This is a complete fabrication. What Universities cooked up Lipitor and Priolosec? Do you have any evidence to substantiate your claims?

How about this as a start to the investitgation:

Oncology Center - Led by Hal Broxmeyer, Ph.D., this team of more than 30 scientists is located at the Indiana University School of Medicine. Dr. Broxmeyer and his laboratory are the pioneers in using umbilical cord blood stem cells for bone marrow transplantation.

Purdue University - Richard Borch, M.D., Ph.D. and Donald Bergstrom, Ph.D. head up Walther's research effort at Purdue University. Purdue works very closely with the University of Notre Dame in designing new compounds for use as cancer therapies.

University of Notre Dame - Rudolph Navari, M.D., Ph.D. and his team of internationally-renown scientists partake in a variety of research efforts, including the development of new cancer drugs and studying how cells move when a cancer spreads through the body.

University of Michigan - National Academy of Sciences inductee Jack Dixon, Ph.D. and his lab examine a family of phosphatases and tumor-suppressor genes in their effort to find the very mechanisms of cancer.

Also, Aids drugs have been discovered at UCSF, etc.....Drug companies end up investing in these discoveries and go on to make the big prophets.

Universities War with Big Pharma Empty drug pipelines send pharmaceutical and academic researchers to the courts | By Ted Agres



Donald Young, a physician and biochemist at the University of Rochester Medical Center, spent three decades conducting research into steroids and protein production in cells. He and fellow researchers Michael K. O'Banion and Virginia D. Winn spent the last 10 of those years identifying the human gene responsible for coding the enzyme cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2). They determined the mechanism by which the enzyme could be selectively inhibited, thus reducing inflammation and pain without unpleasant or dangerous side effects, such as gastrointestinal irritation and bleeding.1,2

Recognition for the Rochester researchers came in April 2000, when the three were named in a broad, pioneering patent that covers the method of activity of an entire class of popular drugs known as COX-2 inhibitors. The patent surprised the biotech and pharmaceutical industries; during the decade the team worked, patents had been granted to others for COX-2 inhibitors based on compositions of matter, rather than method.3

Those composition patents led to the development and marketing of two COX-2 blockbuster drugs-Celebrex and Vioxx. The very day the Rochester patent was granted, the university filed an infringement lawsuit against GD Searle & Co. (now Pharmacia) and Pfizer, which comarket Celebrex. (Patent claims against Merck, which holds the patent for Vioxx, have not been filed.)

Rochester's "historic drug patent is likely to be the most lucrative in US history," the university boasted in an April 2000 news release, with royalty payments potentially totaling billions of dollars. Rochester officials weren't exaggerating. Both drugs are among the top-10 revenue-producing pharmaceuticals, and sales are steadily growing. Celebrex last year generated US sales of $3.1 billion for Pharmacia, while Vioxx took in $2.6 billion for Merck. A court victory for the university could lead to awards of from 10% to 20% of the royalties. A trial will likely begin early next year in US District Court in Rochester, NY. Motions were still being filed in July.

Another broad-reaching patent was awarded in June to three major research institutions. The patent covers disease treatment methods drawn from the common NF-kB messenger pathway. One major lawsuit already has been filed. Some scientists fear that infringement worries will creep into academic labs, affecting research activities.


How to Lick a Lawsuit

Here are some tips from Kevin Noonan, an attorney with McDonnell, Boehnen, Hulbert & Berghoff in Chicago:
Critical to winning a patent lawsuit is demonstrating that you invented first. Maintain a good lab notebook and keep up-to-date records. Have it signed and countersigned.
If grad students and postdocs are involved, be sure the principal investigator (PI) reviews their labs books at least weekly.
Give lab presentations regularly to keep everyone up to speed. Even if the presentations are informal, the PI should write them up, including copies of the gels, data, and printouts discussed.
Be sure everyone in the lab understands his or her intellectual property ownership obligations to the lab, university, or research institution.





THE COURT FOR COMPETITION As biotech and pharmaceutical drug companies compete to fill the drug pipeline, patent wars between academia and industry are likely to erupt more often. "Biotech patents have one of the highest rates of litigation, second only to medical device patents," says Jean O. Lanjouw, professor of economics at the University of California, Berkeley, and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, DC. In a study of nearly 14,000 patent cases filed between 1978 and 1999, she and colleague Mark Schankerman of the London School of Economics and Political Science found that one of every eight top biotech patents was the subject of an infringement lawsuit.4 "Biotech is a complicated industry," says Stephanie Ashe, senior manager of corporate affairs for Genentech, South San Francisco. "Lawsuits are just part of doing business."

Cultural attitudes contribute to the rift between industry and academia. Most pharmaceutical companies license patents and pay royalties properly, but a few try to circumvent the law. Some companies "go to conferences, see the technology and think they can just take it, not expecting they have to get a license," says Gerald Dodson, a patent litigation attorney with Morrison & Foerster in Palo Alto, Calif. Their justification, he says, is based on the view that value is derived from developing and commercializing a product, not from doing the basic research. "They see it as free research. If it's discovered at a university, they think it's something they can take."

Dodson, who represents the University of Rochester, claims this is exactly what happened in the Celebrex case. It was only after the Rochester scientists gave public and private presentations on their research that the pharmaceutical companies raced to develop the COX-2 inhibitors, he says. Mark Wolf, Pharmacia's director of corporate communications, declined to comment, saying the company does not discuss pending litigation. Previously, Pharmacia maintained that a staff scientist had discovered COX-2, but Wolf also declined to make available any of the scientists for interviews. Rochester's Young also declined to be interviewed.

TESTIMONIES OF THE TACITURN Such reticence is not unusual. When patent disputes land in the courts, the scientists often find themselves in unknown territory peopled with lawyers, and defined by sworn depositions and lengthy trials. "It is a rare scientist who enjoys being deposed," says John W. Caldwell, an attorney with Woodcock Washburn in Philadelphia. "It is a rare scientist who does not begrudge the time spent away from the lab and the classroom."

Dodson relates the experience of a senior investigator in the patent infringement lawsuit brought by the University of California, San Francisco, against Genentech over genetically engineered human growth hormone. "Even though he did not have to testify, he was deposed for 28 or 30 days in the case, grilled and harshly treated by the legal system," Dodson says. The researcher, who currently is head of a major department at Massachusetts General Hospital, did not wish to comment for publication.

Understanding the unpleasantness of litigation, many universities and research institutions try to shield their researchers. "We try to isolate the investigators as much as possible and use their time valuably when needed to testify or give depositions," says Lita Nelson, director of the Technology Licensing Office at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "They're not usually the ones who make decisions or stay up nights worrying. They can worry if they want. We consult them, but we manage the work." At the University of Rochester, the Medical Center staff is handling the litigation against the pharmaceutical companies, Norris says.

Litigation is a sign that the biotechnology industry is maturing. "Five or ten years ago, there was a land-grab among biotech companies and there were lots of opportunities," says Jonathan A. Barney, a patent attorney in Newport Beach, Calif. "Now, things are solidifying and companies are looking at market share and trying to hang on to what they have, or capture more of what they think they deserve, based on their patents," he says. "It's a sign that the industry is maturing, and biotech litigation will be on the rise."
 
Well, I like National Health and I understand what Momdr2b is saying. I have often not had health insurance and since it is pegged to the job you have, that's not so hard a situation to find yourself in. What I mean is, you need to have a really great job in order to get good health insurance.

Being in school and working in labs or other research projects, there was no way my $10,500 annual student loan - from which I had to deduct tuition AND pay rent - could cover any health insurance and so I didn't even bother.

Still, that means all my coverage has come out of my pocket. Right now I am struggling with about 700. worth of bills for various visits and I have to pay tiny amounts each month. This could take a year, considering all my other bills.

I am grateful this hasn't been 7,000 for an accident or whatnot, but it also means I'm out of luck in terms of having a child or any other sort of preventative coverage. There was a Wall Street Journal article about a young woman here in NY who was working as a writer/fact checker and just begining her career, and got an appendicitis one night; well, $19,000 later, she had to give up her job, her career and her DREAMS, move back to her mom's in Mississippi and now works in a motel (or something) just to make the money to pay off this debt. 😱 😱

No lie, this was a huge full length, full page article. She was a smart, college grad like any of us - and she apparently had some friends at the WSJ who felt sympathetic to her cause ...

I've lived in Europe and to know, psychologically, that you will NEVER be financially devastated like this is a huge relief. I think the uninsured in the US are like, over 40 million. Out of 260 million (and I'm not including the elderly on medicare, or the poor on medicad).

Lots of working poor; here in NY you are eligible for medical insruance if you make less than 741. per month (before taxes). Oh, and I typically pay about 35% in taxes and deductions (what the heck is FICA??).

I think we need help !!
 
Im about to nap, but i want to ask one thing.

You are sure your school doesnt have cheap health insurance?
At my school its next to nothing.
You cant live on 10.5K tax free dollars? (sales tax aside)
If you parents have money why are they not helping you.
If your parents are poor the GOV would be throwing money at you.

you give me the details and ill tell you where you screwed up.

Are you paid for your lab work?
If not why are you doing it? MD/PHD?

is your 700 what your insurance didnt pay?
What do you have to keep seeing the doctor for? Are you a hypochondirac? Ive been to the on campus hospital i think once, maybe twice, in my 4 years of college, and it was free.

I had to go to the ER once an spent the night and it was only 200 bucks out of pocket.
 
kris,

you are wrong about pharmaceutical development.

For every drug developed at a university, there are 10 developed by private pharma companies.

There are 2 realms of research--basic science and pharmacological.

90% of pharmacological research occurs at the company level, NOT in universities.

Universities focus on basic science research. They try to elucidate biochemical pathways that are found in disease states.

Now, it IS true that pharma companies will use that basic science research as a starting point for an interventional therapy, but to imply that most of the drug research is done at the university is absolutely laughable.

If you suddenly removed all drug companies, drug production would absolutely plummet. Universities by and large DO NOT develop new drugs. At best, they might find an enzyme which is problematic in a particular pathophysiology.

Thats not enough to develop a drug though, thats just the first step.

I challenge you to name more than 10 drugs total which were developed 100% at the university/NIH level. You can go back as far in time as you want. I guarantee you that you wont be able to find 10. Maybe 5 or 6 at the most.
 
MacGyver,

I'm not saying that all drugs or most drugs are developed at the Universities...however, dismissing the background research into the biochemical pathways, etc is a mistake. Pharm companies don't have to do all of the basic science legwork.....the hard work of figuring out how things work and what types of pathways to target in drug development. A lot of trial and error work with new drugs is also done at the University level before being taken on by the pharm companies...so they are really leaving the starting gate with new drugs armed with a great arsenal of background info.

You know, UCSD has developed new cancer drugs, the U of Colorado is now in phase I clinical trials of its new cancer drugs, a prof at the U of Manchester developed a new system to deliver anesthesia more effectively, Osaka University developed a drug that employs the DNA sequence of the gene that produces HGF in the cells of the human body that will be useful for some types of gene therapy and sold the rights to a biotech/pharm company for distribution/testing, etc, Michigan State is developing anti-cancer, anti-inflammatory and anti-bacterial drugs in its labs and is finishing its work on a novel technology that will identify phosphorylated substrates in diseased tissues that will be useful in both diagnosis and treatment....

The university of Oxford developed the artificial blood that acts as oxygen transporters in the body, etc, etc, etc.....

The list is actually endless and could extend way beyond 10 examples.

Here are some other interesting tidbits though:



Universities Join Forces to Develop Drugs

Citing a growing unwillingness among major pharmaceutical firms to gamble on untried medical technologies, three prestigious California universities and a nonprofit research firm have announced formation of a company to develop new drugs, reports The New York Times.

Stanford and the University of California branches in San Francisco and San Diego are joining with SRI International to form PharmaStart. They say the consortium will make it easier to bring drugs devised at the schools into animal and, possibly, human trials.

University officials say the drug companies are becoming more intent on funding production of medicines that have already shown at least some benefit among people.

They also cite a growing trend among universities to take drug development more into their own hands, notably for medications that combat rare diseases that don't necessarily offer large markets for the drug firms, the Times reports.

There are many, many similar articles to be found that cite the fact that innovation in drug companies is just not happening. Big pharm companies are not taking these huge innovative risks that you are claiming that they are...and Universities have traditionally done the legwork, but have little knowledge about how to take their research to the next step. Now many universities are teaming up with non-profit companies to bring their innovations to the public.

This is something private industry hasn't done. What is the problem with putting things in the hands of industry? It all becomes about profit. Look at what happened recently with the blackout. The argument for years was that deregulation of the energy industry would turn it over to the free market and improve the quality of the technology and delivery. Instead, energy prices went up and innovation was thrown out the window for the sake of profit. At the end of the day, what people are left with is an antiquated energy grid that will cost a lot of money to upgrade....there have been no savings over the last several years, nor has there been great innovation...it has all been about profit for the bigwigs.

Electrical utilities did not like the regulations imposed on them long ago by FDR. He succeeded in passing the Federal Utilities Holding Company Act and in forming the Federal Power Commission. With this regulatory system in place, utilities were not allowed to have "power markets" (an Enron specialty), nor were they allowed to contribute any money to political campaigns. Even more important, utilities were required to spend a certain amount on maintenance of their equipment and transmission lines.

These rules disturbed their "freedom," so they started agitating for deregulation. In 1992, George Bush the elder took pity on these poor entrepreneurs and deregulated electric utilities. This was at the federal level. When Republican New York Governor George Pataki got into office, he continued the process of "introducing more competition in utilities" by deregulating them in New York. Utilities were deregulated in other states.

Now, "deregulation" is a buzzword. To make anything better, "deregulate" it. To introduce more competition into an industry, "deregulate" it. To build a stronger economy, "deregulate" it. "Deregulation" makes markets "free."

What did deregulation actually do? Niagara Mohawk, the northern New York utility in the center of the blackout was free to do as it wished. One thing it didn't want to do is spend good money on maintenance. According to Gregory Palast, in his article "Power Outage Traced to Dim Bulb in White House," Niagara Mohawk was free to sell the utility to National Grid of England, which laid off about 800 people and as a result "earned" $90 million for its shareholders.

Some say the blackout started in the Midwest, not in New York. Where it started is besides the point. The fact that utilities all over the country were "free" not to invest in maintenance, is the true cause of the problem.

"Deregulation" makes a handful of people "free" to make money.

"Deregulation" makes a great majority of people "free" to be jolted by a scare, to suffer oppressive heat, to disrupt their plans, to be deprived of drinking water, to be hit with medical insults, and to walk 20 miles in the dark to get home.

Republicans are always pushing for deregulation because they want big business to be "free." I advocate regulation because I would like to see the vast majority of us free of being taken advantage of.

Maybe regulating the pharm industry is just not a bad idea. Instead of the big pharm companies looking only to profits, developing only 'innovations' (if you can call them that) based on the last drug that they produced that was a real money-maker, a certain standard could be maintained. It would mean a drop in income for the millionaires holding the strings, but would mean improved quality and access to medication for 350 million Americans.
 
First of all I don't know how you can point the finger of blame at the deregulation movement on the issue of the blackout. I am a New Yorker who has followed the issue closely, and I can tell you that we STILL don't know what happened, so I can't dream of how you could know what happened, let alone who or what to blame. Secondly, there are no standards that can be developed to regulate the pharmaceutical industry without squashing all innovation. Unfortunately, in our world of capitalism, greed is good. Greed is what motivates, it is what incentivizes, it is what keeps people working late, rising early and busting their rear ends to make things work. There is a reason why this nation is the bastion of innovation, the engine for growth in heathcare, and it is because of the promises of profit and prosperity to those who deliver life saving medicines and services. Squashing that system puts way too much faith in the magnanimity of humanity, and discounts the basic tenets of trade. Your calls are noble, and even commendable. But you are living in the darkness of idealism, in the throws of impossibility. What you need to do is to work to find real world solutions to some very real problems, and not speculate on what SHOULD be, what WOULD be best, what COULD make things equitable. I do not want to be the cynic that bursts everybody's bubble, but we are just wasting our time arguing about principle, about what should, would and could be. Lets talk about what is, why it is and what can be done to make improvements to a broken system without wrecking the American way of doing things.
 
University reaserch is funded by the gov. There is no solid motivation to make the research something which DIRECTLY benifits people. Though basic science reseach may be neseccary for drug development it does not truly focus on treatments and cures. If im a science researcher if i discover anythning novel i am succeeding. The pharm companies dont have the luxury of having such a broad target to hit. They must be focused on things which are directly belificial to a patient. The only way to keep somones motivation fixed on the more difficult of the two tasks is profit.
 
This is too good to pass on....It does, however, require careful reading and because it doesn't fit your agenda, I'm sure you'll all just pass it over.

.....Because researchers had published more than 130 articles about taxol in scientific journals, it was impossible for anyone to patent the drug under U.S. law. The government paid for all of the pre-clinical research on Taxol, and it also sponsored a large number of human use clinical trials, including the so-called Phase I, II and III trials which are required for FDA approval in the United States. The government also developed the methods for manufacturing the drug, which was done through a private contractor named Hauser Chemical.

In the United States the government plays a huge role in funding pharmaceutical research and development (R&D), but it rarely, if ever, becomes the agent that sells the drug to the public. Here the federal government entered into a contract with the large Multinational firm, Bristol-Myers (now Bristol-Myers Squibb). The government agency NCI gave BMS a contract which provided the private firm with exclusive rights to use the data from government funded human use clinical trials, and also gave the firm an exclusive "first right of refusal" to harvest the bark of the Pacific Yew tree from federal lands. In return for these privileges and benefits, BMS only agreed to provide the government with a few kilos of Taxol for use in research that BMS would "own," and to use BMS's "best efforts" to commercialize Taxol, a drug with world wide sales of hundreds of millions of dollars per year. BMS was not obligated to pay the government any money in royalties for the exclusive use of its research data, but it did agree to a vaguely written "fair pricing" clause in the contract.

When Taxol entered the U.S. market it was priced at a wholesale price of $4.87 per milligram, or more than $9,000 for a completed treatment for some types of cancer. We investigated the pricing of Taxol and found that BMS was acquiring clinical grade Taxol from Hauser Chemical, the firm that was once the government's contractor, for less than $.25 per milligram. In other words, BMS was charging U.S. consumers about 20 times its cost of production for the drug.

In response to our criticisms of the price, BMS made a number of what appears to be rather common exaggerations about its role in the development of Taxol. For example, BMS claimed that it had spent more than $114 million to "develop" Taxol, but the company refused to provide any specific accounting of how this was calculated. It turned out that most of this money was simply the long term drug supply contracts that BMS had signed with Hauser and other companies, it would be highly misleading to refer to these production contracts as R&D investments.


Several Congressional hearings were held on Taxol and on many other high priced drugs which benefited from government funding. Based upon our experience with Taxol, we initiated a number of new studies. We found, for example, that of the 37 cancer drugs which were invented after 1955 (the beginning of the modern NCI drug screening program), 34 were developed with significant funding by the government. This high degree of government funding was true for many other drugs as well.

Another TAP study looked at all of the "important" new drugs approved by the FDA from 1987 to 1991. During this 5 year period the FDA issued 2,270 drug approvals, but most were for generic drugs or new combinations of existing compounds. Only 117 of the new drug approvals involved so called "New Molecular Entities" (NMEs), which is the name given to drugs which are distinctly different from drugs already on the market. Of these 117 NMEs, only 30 were judged by the FDA to be drugs that were used in the treatment of severe illnesses (FDA class E drug) or to represent a substantial gain in therapeutic value (FDA efficacy rating of A).

Of these 30 "important" new drugs approved by the FDA, 15 benefited from significant funding by the U.S. government. But when one considers the country where the drug was first discovered the government's role is even more important. 17 of the "important" new drugs were discovered in the U.S. Of these drugs, 12 were developed with significant government funding - that is, 71 percent were developed with significant government funding.


The U.S. government spends an enormous amount of money on health care research, and this investment has been very productive. On the basis of our research, we have concluded that while the private sector's R&D investments are also large, they tend to be directed at the lower risk ventures, and often are directed the development of so called "me too" drugs, which do not represent significant improvements in therapy, but rather are marginally different methods of treating illnesses which represent large markets, as measured by the companies in the dollars they will receive from consumers.

the drugs developed with government funding were about 3 times more expensive than the drugs developed with private funding. Clearly the drug companies were not "passing" on the benefits of government funding to the U.S. consumers, who pay for the research.

Over the past several years there have been many news reports about investigations into particular government drugs which are excessively priced. One of the most interesting cases concerns the drug Ceredase, which is used to treat Gaucher's disease, a rare affliction which affects only a few thousand persons in the United States. The U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) spent several million dollars to develop Ceredase. The original research was funded at Tufts University. The scientists at Tufts University closed down the program at the University and created a new start-up company, named the Genzyme corporation, which became the marketing company for Ceredase. The "roll-out"price for the drug was extremely high -- some patients were required to pay as much as $550 thousand for a single year of treatment. The company was able to generate more than $100 million in revenue for one year from about 300 patients. Because the U.S. has no program for controlling drug prices, nothing could be done about the enormous burden this high price placed on the patients who received the drug. Many of the stories from patients who suffer from Gaucher's disease were heart breaking. Genzyme employees a number of "reimbursement specialists," who met with individual patients to help them find ways to pay for the drug. One women testified before Congress that the company salesman recommend such procedures as getting a divorce so the patient could become eligible for welfare payments. Some patients were asked to sell homes, and in some cases the umbrella benefits from private insurance were exhausted, leaving the entire family without health insurance.

Another case which received wide attention was the drug Levamisole, which is used to treat cancer of the colon. Levamisole was first used to remove worms from sheep, and was priced at $.06 per bill for that purpose. An NIH funded study found a way that the drug could be used to treat colon cancer. However, the "patent" rights to the "idea" of using Levamisole to treat cancer were owned by the drug company Johnson and Johnson (J&J), even though the principal researcher on the project described the company's contribution to the research as trivial - just supplying the drugs for the clinical trials. When Levamisole entered the market for humans, it was priced at $6 per pill, a 100 fold increase in the price, and a difficult burden for many of the patients who take the drug regularly, many without the benefit of health insurance coverage.

One of my favorite case studies involves the drug cisplatin, which is a widely used cancer drug. Cisplatin is one of many drugs which is marketed by BMS (the world's largest seller of cancer drugs, even though it has never discovered a cancer drug on its own). Cisplatin was discovered at Michigan State University on a government grant. The University licensed the drug to BMS on an exclusive basis for 5 years. When the exclusive license expired in 1983, several companies wanted to obtain non-exclusive licenses to manufacture and sell the drug. Instead, however, the U.S. government allowed BMS to have the exclusive license, on the condition that the company lower its prices by 30 percent, and fund $35 million in cancer research, which was carried out under the direction of the NIH.


We are now seeing new drug prices which are far above anything we have seen before, and things are only getting worse.

The U.S. still does not collect data on industry R&D expenditures, and indeed, the U.S. government really does not even organize data on its own R&D efforts in ways that make it clear how much the private sector relies upon government funded research.

Pharmaceutical drugs are necessary for good health, and high prices will deprive many persons throughout the world of the benefits of these technologies.

I was surprised and saddened to learn that the U.S. government is so aggressively protecting a handful of large corporate interests, and that it is opposing many reasonable proposals to resolve the current dispute over patents.



* Center for Study of Responsive Law. P.O. Box 19367, Washington, DC 20036. Voice 1.202.387.8030; Fax 1.202.234.5176; Internet [email protected]
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You guys have also totally missed the point of any of the things printed so far...Innovation is not the rule at pharm companies....it's the 'me too' drugs being produced..Universities do the legwork, the govt invests in the research and the pharm company takes it to the final step and then overcharges for the drugs out the A$$.....the free market has resulted in a profit-driven industry, not one that is interested in innovation.

Antikovich..where are YOUR answers? Everyone here is quick to scream 'boohoo', we might earn less, 'boohoo', it might affect the innovation in drug development, 'boohoo', socialism=bad...but where are the real answers from those of you on the other side of the fence. I get so tired of these one-sided arguments. You are quick to criticized any solutions brought up that don't fit your agenda, but where are YOUR solutions?

Why are you afraid of disrupting this american way of putting profits above people, innovation and society?

kris
 
Originally posted by mommd2b
You are quick to criticized any solutions brought up that don't fit your agenda, but where are YOUR solutions?

I posted a bullet point list of reforms that would help solve the problems that exist in healthcare today. What these proposals would do is infuse some equity into the system without compromising capitalism, innovation, initiative, and incentive, among other things. What my proposals would not do is launch a large scale assault on the American free markets. It would not ensue a massive offensive against American success stories. I would not seek afundamental change in the way this country operates, and would not push to eliminate all that it means to be American. I would work to find solutions in the collective minds and talents of the folks that make this country go, and not in yet another government subsidy or entitlement program. Jefferson was right when he said that a government that governs least, governs best. We cannot have big brother Uncle Sam swoop in to instill more red tape, more entitlements, more resource redistribution, and more pandering everytime something is broken. We can fix this problem, but the solution lies not in some magic bill in capitol hill, but in the hearts of the American worker, and in the mind of the American entrepreneur. The answers lie in real reforms that affirm the basic tenets upon which this country was founded: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The solutions that America needs, need to be American in their origin and spirit. A solution that does not honor freedom and free markets, liberty and entrepreneurship, the patriotism and innovation, is an un-American solution. And it cannot stand.
 
Im not impressed with the "20 times production costs" mark up.

9k for a cancer treatment like taxol is a bargain.
The 500K treatment for the crazy disease seems bad but...if its so rare than making the reaserch profitable requires high prices.

What i dont understand is why the GOV gives up the rights to these drugs.

I volunteered somwhere for two weeks and we had to live there. There was not alot of time to do laundry so once you put somthing in the wash you couldnt switch it over untill the next day. But others need to use the wash too so they would switch it over for you. But then they couldnt get theirs out untill the next day so you had to do it for them to free up your space. So what ended up happening is you walk in and fold the laundry in the dryer, put the laundry form the wask int the dryer, and then put your laundry in the wash. And you can see that as everyone did this...you only have to go there once and all of your laundry got done. You had to do the guys laundry in front of you, not your own for the system to work.

This is how the pricing of drugs is working (except in reverse). You dont pay for the reaserch that went into discovering your drug. You have to pay for the research that goes into the next guys illness's drug. If you can make taxol at 25 cent an ml fine, but if thats all i paid, or if i only paid triple that, there wont be enough money to discover the next drug.

I dont think the gov just gives that money away. I know that FSU is making all of the money off of Taxol. I go to FSU and holton was the guy who discovered the synthesis for it. He had to lisence it to BMS for a few years because FSU isnt set up to distribute it, but as of now the profits are going into new research at FSU.
 
"From the get-go, however, the company's incredibly good fortune did not escape the attention of critics of the pharmaceutical industry, which included members of Congress. In Taxol's debut year, 1993, Bristol officials were obliged to sit before yet another Congressional panel, this time to trot out their reasons for the drug's high price. Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) was alarmed that the company was charging 20 times what it was paying for raw product. Bristol argued that its investment in the drug?which the company claimed approached $1 billion?justified Taxol's lofty pricetag."

1 billion invested! compared to the gov's 25 mill.

http://www.research.fsu.edu/researchr/fall2002/taxol.html

Incedantaly, I was taught organic and got one of my letters of rec from Martin Schwartz, the guy mentioned in the artice who was Holtons Doctoral professor/mentor. The man is the best teacher ive ever met. Retiered last year, unfortunatly
 
Originally posted by mommd2b
You guys have also totally missed the point of any of the things printed so far...Innovation is not the rule at pharm companies....it's the 'me too' drugs being produced..Universities do the legwork, the govt invests in the research and the pharm company takes it to the final step and then overcharges for the drugs out the A$$.....the free market has resulted in a profit-driven industry, not one that is interested in innovation.


You forgot the part where the US congress intervenes and allows them to extend their patents for no good reason, other than campaign contributions.
 
Originally posted by mdterps83
You forgot the part where the US congress intervenes and allows them to extend their patents for no good reason, other than campaign contributions.

You are wrong on two fronts. First, it is the Food and Drug Administration that administers periods of exclusivity for, on average, about a dozen years. Second, this is the period of time that the pharmaceutical companies recoup the billions of dollars invested in research and development, and the profits that justify the initial investment. Sounds like some good reasoning to me.
 
To Hightrump and whoever it was on here that said that universal health care was un-American:

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men...

Sound familiar?

Hightrump, you say that you are angry that people feel ENTITLED to medical care that keeps them alive, whether they can afford it or not. But you're arguing that a different entitlement is perfectly valid-- you have money, and therefore you can stay alive because you can pay more to do so. But life is not a commodity to be bought and sold-- cars, stocks, houses, etc. are commodities. As far as I'm concerned, neither you, nor I, nor anyone else in the world has a right to decide that somebody isn't worth keeping alive.

What we need is a form of coverage that can cover essential care for people who don't have any other coverage. It doesn't even have to be mandatory. All it would need to cover would be life-saving procedures- emergency surgery and the like. Although it would be costly, there are ways to fund something like this: limits on punitive damages in medical malpractice suits (and a redirection of saved malpractice insurance costs to the hospital to support the care), closing countless stupid tax loopholes, reduced "defense" spending (anybody read 1984? Ministry of Peace?), etc. Hell, with the money saved on those last two things we might be able to give teachers a decent wage too, while we were at it.

The trick would be to have everybody, by default, enrolled in this bare-bones government program, with the only qualification being citizenship. Employers who give better health care coverage can still give it as an incentive to work there, as it is now. But the goal of health care reform is to get coverage to people who want it and need it but can't get it or afford it. So an ideal program would not be "everybody has this coverage, end of discussion." Ideally, the program would be more like "this will cover the basics, if you want something better, go get it yourself." With something like that, we could get essential coverage to everyone who needs it and doesn't have it, without sacrificing all of the benefits of the system currently in place.

I'm not saying that all of this is what will happen; I'm not saying that any of this will happen. But this is what I think should be changed.
 
:clap: :clap:
great post mommd2b...
i saw firsthand the uglieness that can happen when you lose a job and have to deal with health insurance...
this feb when i lost my job, i had to deal with the loss of salary and the doubling of my health insurance. like many of my friends it was a balancing act i couldnt deal with and i joined the ranks of the 41MM uninsured. and worse the rates that i was offered were laughable $~250/month for the most basic health insurance!
yes - i'll give an insurance company $3K/year when I have never had more than a bad cold in 12+years!!

Originally posted by mommd2b
OMG...I'm laughing my butt off over here. Did it ever occur to you that the majority of the more than 40 milliion uninsured in this country actually WORK!!!!! The solution is not to fix their lives, but to 'fix' big business and demand that they provide health care insurance to their employees. Where is it written that the CEO of target 'deserves' 19.5 million a year (up 3.5 million from last year) while at the same time cutting health care benefits for his employees?

My mother (and yes, I've talked about this in a previous thread) was divorced from my father a few years back. She has worked full-time her entire adult life...but was in a job where she was not offered health care benefits. It was alright because she was covered by my father....Unfortunately, the costs of her continuing with my dad's insurance on her own were more than a mortgage payment and so she was unable to keep the health insurance. She searched for a job with benefits for a couple of years...one that would offer her both a decent salary and benefits (she has a master's degree, btw!). In the meantime, she had to pay for breast surgery to remove/biopsy a lump and was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. This is all of course now considered a pre-existing condition by her new insurance company 🙄 so she will continue to have to pay out of pocket. My mother is also a vietnam veteran and was denied VA services because she earned over 25k a year.

This is not an example of a woman who is lazy, has a screwed up life or just needs to stop being so darn poor 🙄 This is the reality for the middle class in this country.


kris
 
Originally posted by mommd2b
I would say that before tax minimum wage should probably be doubled....in order to do that, we would have to pay about .10 cents more for each hamburger, etc, and I'd be willing to do that...

Do you have any idea what doubling min wage would do to small business in this country? Answer: It would absolutely devastate it.

You think doubling minimum wage would only add 10 cents to the price of your Big Mac? I'd think that again, if I were you.

If you owned your local McDonald's franchise, doubling min wage (would double your cost of labor) would likely drive overhead too high to maintain profitability.

Back to the small businessman....if you owned a landscaping company, think you could afford to pay everyone double the current minimum wage? Not unless you doubled your fees? This would happen across the board....prices would escalate...and the "new" minimum wage would effectively be negated by inflation.

The comments made about the shoe salesman being a "professional," etc are absolutely garbage (nothing personal). Listen, when it comes to the job market, it's all about supply and demand. The questions that pretty much dictates your salary is "How many people can do what I do?" and ?How many people require the services I can offer??

If you're a shoe salesman and ask yourself that first question, the answer is "Pretty much, everyone." If you're a brain surgeon, on the other hand, the answer may be "About 3 people, in a 500 mile radius."

Again back to my central theme...we're all responsible to make ourselves competitive in this job market. Listen, a minimum wage job should be INCENTIVE to move up the ladder, i.e. go to school, etc.

Listen, I know better than most what it's like to be overworked and under-paid. As a 20 y/o Lance Corporal in the Marines I made sub-poverty wages and did work that most people would find intolerable (for a while, my job was to fill sandbags in the desert day in and day out). You know what? That was a wake-up call. I would look over at my Lieutenant sitting in the shade and would think, "Hmmm...the only difference between me and the LT is that he has a college degree....he gets paid twice as much as me and never has to fill sandbags....hmmm....maybe I should get a college degree."

See....that was incentive to get out of the Marines and go to college. Listen, I can't help it if some people aren't motivated to improve their station in life. Again, it's simple...everyone out there has an opportunity to do better than a min wage job...there's trade schools, the military, community college....a zillion-and-one ways to improve yourself.

But, if they're too complacent to improve themselves, then they deserve min wage.
 
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