Interesting Story about Hopkins Working Violations

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The response from Hopkins certainly didnt seem to address many of the issues the whistleblower made.
I dont want to kill a patient because ive been up for 34 hours.
 
that is pretty disturbing.
 
Fascinating. The guy had balls for blowing the whistle. But honestly...if you were a residency director, would you want to take under your wings a whistle-blower?
 
He certainly did.. but also admitted that he wouldn't do it again. It is truly a game of "Jump!" and "How high?" A noble feat indeed, but one that could undoubtedly damage one's career...
 
Yawn...and how many other hospitals were doing the same?

What's the OP got against JH?
 
...has B.S. written all over it if you ask me. They make it sound as if they're just so gosh darn dedicted to their patients they can't take care of their doctors. I mean there is definitely a logical flaw there. Besides, I'd like to know how much time is spent on scut, because that paints a very different picture than the Hopkins' response does; a resident attending a patient's bedside, tirelessly working, practicing "true medicine" is very different from hours spent doing all kinds of scut. And I'm sure it would be justified by saying that having the interns do scut is necessary so the residents can practice their "true medicine" tirelessly. But I still say, whatever. And I don't care what the hour limit is; whether it's 10, 20, or 40 consecutive hours, no one who cares for a patient is going to just up and leave because it's time to go. The Hopkins' response, to me, is a big ol' honkin' cop out.
 
John Deere Gree said:
Yawn...and how many other hospitals were doing the same?

What's the OP got against JH?
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None. But its funny that in JHU's response they basically scapegoated the whistleblower.

And its kind of ironic that John Deere Gree, rather than addressing the actual issue at hand, has decided to scapegoat the OP simply for having brought attention to this issue (with no commentary other than the actual link and credit to another poster)

Interesting trend indeed.
 
finnpipette said:
Fascinating. The guy had balls for blowing the whistle. But honestly...if you were a residency director, would you want to take under your wings a whistle-blower?
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That is the problem with America in general recently. Rather than get mad at the actual violators, people get mad at the whistleblower for being honest and reporting the violation.

This has happened in colleges (Clarett case), companies (Enron the most famous), and in government (analysts getting fired by the administration for disagreeing).

I for one would prefer to associate with people who would whistleblow (meaning that they are in general honest and active people), rather than the jerks that try to pressure people into submitting to the violations.

Lets not forget who the real violators are.
 
Is the author still doing his residency at JH or did he transfer?
 
oldtimer said:
Is the author still doing his residency at JH or did he transfer?
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"Troy Madsen is an emergency medicine resident at Ohio State University Medical Center."
 
he left hopkins because he stated that the environment there wasn't condusive to him working there anymore.....

i think that ohio state extended him an interview and position and he is there as we speak....
 
That response addressed absolutely none of the things in the guy's story. It was like they just had a canned PR statement and said hey, let's use that. It refers to the entire point of the piece (the hours violations) in like two sentences and spends four paragraphs talking about how wonderful Hopkins is and what a beautiful ethic they have.

I certainly have nothing against Hopkins, but I would expect a legitimate response that, at the very least, says "persecuting a whistleblower is unacceptable", but they actually appear to be tacitly promoting that. Unbelievable. That's some ego.
 
apprentice said:
he left hopkins because he stated that the environment there wasn't condusive to him working there anymore.....

i think that ohio state extended him an interview and position and he is there as we speak....
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My respect for Ohio State Med has gone up tremendously. Most medical schools dont have the cojones to admit someone who stands up for the law, even if prominent individuals are violating it.

I find it extremely ironic that it is very likely that some of these JHU residents who are bashing the whistleblower are the ones giving lectures on medical ethics 🙄 🙄 🙄
 
OmahaMX80 said:
...has B.S. written all over it if you ask me. They make it sound as if they're just so gosh darn dedicted to their patients they can't take care of their doctors. I mean there is definitely a logical flaw there. Besides, I'd like to know how much time is spent on scut, because that paints a very different picture than the Hopkins' response does; a resident attending a patient's bedside, tirelessly working, practicing "true medicine" is very different from hours spent doing all kinds of scut. And I'm sure it would be justified by saying that having the interns do scut is necessary so the residents can practice their "true medicine" tirelessly. But I still say, whatever. And I don't care what the hour limit is; whether it's 10, 20, or 40 consecutive hours, no one who cares for a patient is going to just up and leave because it's time to go. The Hopkins' response, to me, is a big ol' honkin' cop out.
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Well guys, you'll notice that this is not Hopkins' response, it's the response of a resident who was also in the Osler residency program at the time, so it is just as much an editorial as Madsen's letter. The only "official" word from Hopkins is this press release which doesn't tell you much with regard to Madsen's explanation since it was not written in response to the AMSA article:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2003/12_20_03.html

While I agree that Hopkins should have made more of an effort earlier on to be in accordance with the new working hours regulations, and were at fault for not doing so, many, many people are upset with the new regulations - in fact they are already looking at revising them.

One problem with them is that there is a zero tolerance policy. As far as I know, it is actually illegal to stay in the hospital once your hours are exceeded. You *have* to leave, and pass treatment on to someone else, which is a huge source of medical mistakes in itself.

Another is that, with fewer work hours, there is less total residency time available for education, yet residencies can't be extended because government funding for them has not been increased. So some are worried about residents being less educated before going off on their own.

Another is that some teaching hospitals cannot afford to hire extra staff to make up for having fewer residents around. Residents are essentially free labor, and the number of residents can't increase without more medical schools! This means that attendings are making up for fewer residents, so now it's the *attendings* who are working long hours and getting tired to make up for the labor shortage.

Still, like I said, the law is the law, so Hopkins should have been in accordance. But I think Madsen was being a bit idealistic at his residency expectations, and I can certainly understand, since I have heard the Hopkins side first hand, why many were angry at him. In the article he mentions that he didn't even talk to the Osler program director, who probably could have done something about it, because he was "intimidated." Instead he went directly to the ACGME. To that I say 🙄 . Hopkins surely wasn't the only hospital not in accordance but they are the ones to get slammed in the media. And like the editorial response indicates, many residents are frustrated with the new regulations and liked how it was before, but one person cut through and nearly jeapordized the entire program for everybody, regardless of opinion. I don't think it's a wonder why people were pissed.

There are two sides to every story.
 
Well guys, you'll notice that this is not Hopkins' response, it's the response of a resident who was also in the Osler residency program at the time, so it is just as much an editorial as Madsen's letter.
Click to expand...

The article says they asked Hopkins for a response, and Hopkins provided them with the letter from the resident. Thus I would say that's pretty much Hopkins' response.
 
I keep hearing people mention that this is common and that other schools had similar violations

What are some examples of such schools? And did they screw over the whistleblower too?

Im interested in what programs are that malignant. I dont know if I would want to do a residency at such a program.

And in terms of trying to "screw" over the other residents, the whistleblower went to Hopkins for med school as well, so it is kind of hard for me to swallow he has some animosity towards the school that would make him do this. And I have not been to convinced by any of the links supplied simply because they do not really address the working hour violations or the treatment of the whistleblower-- they simply use flowery, abstract language to try to rationalize breaking the rules.
 
I think Troy should be commended for his bravery. He did what no one else was willing to do and is an example for future residents. Go Troy!!
 
this all reminds me of the movie The Insider (Al Pacino, Russell Crow) based on a true story in which a researcher blows the whistle on the tobacco industry - saying they knew all along that cigarettes harm people. His reputation and safety were compromised as well. Spooky.
 
Violinrose said:
this all reminds me of the movie The Insider (Al Pacino, Russell Crow) based on a true story in which a researcher blows the whistle on the tobacco industry - saying they knew all along that cigarettes harm people. His reputation and safety were compromised as well. Spooky.
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I just find it disturbing that residents at a major academic hospital involved in TEACHING would be as ruthless as tobacco industry execs. And their spin is just as lame too.

Im still hoping for a list of other schools that violate the 80 hour rule and then punish whistleblowers like Hopkins. I think that would be a pretty good list of schools not to do residency at for some.
 
wow, 140 hours a week....thats 4 hours of sleep every night...insane
 
Gleevec. I'm just wondering why you bring this up a year after the fact? Not that I give an iota about Hopkins, but wowee another whistleblower story where corporation is bad, whistleblower supposedly good. He could have easily had asked other residents in the program how much they worked, etc. before doing residency there. Instead he whines how bad he was worked.

the waaaaaaaaaa-bulance will be on stand-by.
 
phosphorylation said:
wow, 140 hours a week....thats 4 hours of sleep every night...insane
Click to expand...

Not true. Even though you are "on call" doesn't mean you are awake.
 
dmoney, I highly doubt something like this went through the publicity office, the dean of the SOM, the president of JHU. We have no idea who they sent the request to, and this response seems to me to be obviously the opinions of one resident. It's not at all "official." Not only does TNP reach a very small audience, but 99.9% of Americans probably have absolutely no idea who Troy Madsen is. Moreover, it's not like Hopkins fired him. He chose to leave. To demand a public apology from a large academic institution for something like this seems a bit unreasonable. Call it ego and curse the name of Hopkins if you want, but I would be surprised, if this exact situation happened at ANY other teaching hospital, if a public apology would be made. On the other hand, if his leaving reached national attention and people from coast to coast were outraged en masse, I'm sure Hopkins would apologize.

Gleevec, I agree that some of the behaviors exhibited by other residents and even faculty were out of line, but the people at Hopkins were angry, for reasons including those I already mentioned. It's unfortunate that people learned who sent the email and reacted so negatively. Still, and maybe I'm wrong, but my guess is that you wouldn't be happy either if you were a resident and someone placed the accreditation of *your training* into jeopardy, whether or not you thought something needed changing. It's the same reason people try to solve a problem they have with someone like a coworker by talking to them first, rather than going directly to the boss. And he made the complaint at the end of the first week of residency, so it seems unlikely that he had time to exhaust all of his options at JHH (in fact, he admits he didn't talk to the Osler director), especially if he was so overworked.

When I and a few other people say that Hopkins wasn't the only one, we're simply making an assumption, I think a reasonable one, that not every single teaching hospital other than Hopkins was in complete compliance by July 1. There probably wouldn't have been other whistleblowers because of Hopkins' prominence and because Madsen emailed the ACGME really early - July 7.

Sorry my link is not to your liking. They don't mention Madsen for the reason I said above - most laypeople don't know who he is or what his story is, and his TNP letter came out several months after the fact. The language is optimistic and it does not go into detail about the behind-the-scenes stuff, but everyone reading it knows what they're talking about and as far as I know institutions don't usually like to shoot themselves in the foot either by opening internal drama to the public. Again, I would find it extremely hard to believe that this type of thing would be unique to Hopkins.

You're more than welcome to call Hopkins "malignant" because some people got angry and overreacted, but I think your evil schools list would be longer than you think.
 
John Deere Gree said:
Gleevec. I'm just wondering why you bring this up a year after the fact? Not that I give an iota about Hopkins, but wowee another whistleblower story where corporation is bad, whistleblower supposedly good. He could have easily had asked other residents in the program how much they worked, etc. before doing residency there. Instead he whines how bad he was worked.

the waaaaaaaaaa-bulance will be on stand-by.
Click to expand...

You're pathetic. The resident attended Hopkins for med school and tells you that Hopkins basically lied to him during the interview and said they would be in compliance. This has nothing to do with evil corporations-- Hopkins is a non-profit organization, after all. It has to do with a certain mentality that many physicians have that, frankly, I think stems from insecurity and a lack of self-worth coming from non-medical pursuits leading to a gross over-identification with work. What kind of a ***** makes a quote like, "I'm abdicating responsibility by signing out?" How is trusting your patient's care after you have been awake for thirty hours to a freshly rested fellow Hopkins resident "abdicating responsibility?" It's so patently stupid; it's infuriating. If there are communications issues with the next resident knowing what's going on, schedule a thirty minute transition period each day for the night call residents to tell the new day's residents what's up, rather than leaving a lame one-sentence note.
 
WatchingWaiting said:
It has to do with a certain mentality that many physicians have that, frankly, I think stems from insecurity and a lack of self-worth coming from non-medical pursuits leading to a gross over-identification with work.
Click to expand...
I agree that it is the mentality of most physicians that allows them to take the abuse, but I don't accept that it is based in insecurity.
It is based in a sense of personal sacrifice, which is more or less what the JHU response is getting at.
Most physicians, when faced with difficult conditions, would rather suck it up and press on than waste their time whining.

It is clear that the old system needed reform, and that the process has just begun. There are going to be growing pains. This "whistleblower" and others like him are necessary to the process of change, and what he did has some positive impact. However, I have no doubt that he is a whiny b!tch and does not share the same attitudes as many of his fellow resdients in a number of areas. I doubt he fits in much better at OSU.

As far as "over-identification with work," it is very natural for secure individuals in such a demanding field. Only time will tell how you or I fare on that score.
 
BeatArmy said:
I agree that it is the mentality of most physicians that allows them to take the abuse, but I don't accept that it is based in insecurity.
It is based in a sense of personal sacrifice, which is more or less what the JHU response is getting at.
Most physicians, when faced with difficult conditions, would rather suck it up and press on than waste their time whining.

It is clear that the old system needed reform, and that the process has just begun. There are going to be growing pains. This "whistleblower" and others like him are necessary to the process of change, and what he did has some positive impact. However, I have no doubt that he is a whiny b!tch and does not share the same attitudes as many of his fellow resdients in a number of areas. I doubt he fits in much better at OSU.

As far as "over-identification with work," it is very natural for secure individuals in such a demanding field. Only time will tell how you or I fare on that score.
Click to expand...

Rather than calling someone out as a whiny beeyatch, when all they were doing is obeying the law, maybe you should take a look at the case that brought about the 80 hour limit in NY that was later adopted nationwide:

http://www.medicalalumni.org/bulletin/fall_2003/lead2.html

"The effort to reform resident working hours has its roots in the state of New York, which implemented an 80-hour-per-week limit in 1989. The state law?the first and only one of its kind?was prompted by the death of an 18-year-old girl who was initially hospitalized with flu symptoms. Her family claimed that negligent residents, working without enough sleep, prescribed improper medication. A grand jury investigation found no criminal fault on the part of the doctors, but the panel expressed concerns about resident working hours and supervision. "

Its people like you, BeatArmy, and a whole host of others that bash on whistleblowers that are contributing to the downfall of work culture in the US. I guess some people are simply happy to watch laws broken and ethics ignored and just suck it up. Of course, the Nuremberg defense isnt THAT effective.
 
John Deere Gree said:
Gleevec. I'm just wondering why you bring this up a year after the fact? Not that I give an iota about Hopkins, but wowee another whistleblower story where corporation is bad, whistleblower supposedly good. He could have easily had asked other residents in the program how much they worked, etc. before doing residency there. Instead he whines how bad he was worked.

the waaaaaaaaaa-bulance will be on stand-by.
Click to expand...

The LAW is 80 hours a week. It began due to a grand jury investigation into the DEATH OF AN 18 YEAR OLD GIRL when residents missed a basic meningitis diagnosis and the grand jury (in NY) came to the conclusion that residents are overworked and made huge mistakes they wouldnt otherwise make. Studies have shown that the hours residents worked caused them to be more impaired than if they were above the legal limit of alcohol-- except that the subject participants didnt even believe themselves to be impaired in the least (a finding that is more dangerous in fact).

So yeah, the "waaaaa-bulance" has long since passed... unfortunately it took the life of a teenager to convince idiots like you that changes were necessary. You're freaking disgusting John Deere Gree...
 
Rapid Decomposition said:
Again, I would find it extremely hard to believe that this type of thing would be unique to Hopkins.

You're more than welcome to call Hopkins "malignant" because some people got angry and overreacted, but I think your evil schools list would be longer than you think.
Click to expand...

Again and again some people keep mentioning that there are other schools that have acted similarly in 1. egregiously violating a law meant to protect not only residents, but patients as well and 2. blacklisting and threatening a whistleblower for demonstrating noncompliance

I ask you and others again, as I have before, what are other examples of this at other schools. This has nothing to do with JHU persay, but if ANY medical school acted like JHU, I think its worth condemning. Its just in this case its JHU that broke the law, yet the only defense is "oh but others schools are doing it" Well, first off thats not a good defense at all, for reasons learned in elementary school. But secondly, well, lets have at it. Name some schools that acted similarly. It will be more helpful than you think, and I would be grateful to know of malignant schools such as JHU that would screw over one of their residents for following a law intended to protect both patients and physicians alike.
 
Gleevec said:
Rather than calling someone out as a whiny beeyatch, when all they were doing is obeying the law, maybe you should take a look at the case that brought about the 80 hour limit in NY that was later adopted nationwide:

http://www.medicalalumni.org/bulletin/fall_2003/lead2.html

"The effort to reform resident working hours has its roots in the state of New York, which implemented an 80-hour-per-week limit in 1989. The state law?the first and only one of its kind?was prompted by the death of an 18-year-old girl who was initially hospitalized with flu symptoms. Her family claimed that negligent residents, working without enough sleep, prescribed improper medication. A grand jury investigation found no criminal fault on the part of the doctors, but the panel expressed concerns about resident working hours and supervision. "

Its people like you, BeatArmy, and a whole host of others that bash on whistleblowers that are contributing to the downfall of work culture in the US. I guess some people are simply happy to watch laws broken and ethics ignored and just suck it up. Of course, the Nuremberg defense isnt THAT effective.
Click to expand...

I'm familiar with why the changes are being made, and as I said, changes were/are needed.
Sometimes, in history, whiners accomplish some good. It doesn't change the fact that they were whiners. It's not like they were hardworkers who just saw the perfect time to start whining. It's that they were always whiners who finally had a valid outlet.
Of course, maybe this guy is the exception to the rule, but I doubt it.
 
Gleevec said:
Again and again some people keep mentioning that there are other schools that have acted similarly in 1. egregiously violating a law meant to protect not only residents, but patients as well and 2. blacklisting and threatening a whistleblower for demonstrating noncompliance

I ask you and others again, as I have before, what are other examples of this at other schools. This has nothing to do with JHU persay, but if ANY medical school acted like JHU, I think its worth condemning. Its just in this case its JHU that broke the law, yet the only defense is "oh but others schools are doing it" Well, first off thats not a good defense at all, for reasons learned in elementary school. But secondly, well, lets have at it. Name some schools that acted similarly. It will be more helpful than you think, and I would be grateful to know of malignant schools such as JHU that would screw over one of their residents for following a law intended to protect both patients and physicians alike.
Click to expand...


I really doubt you're going to find an answer in this forum... Maybe in one of the medical students' or residency forums?
 
BeatArmy said:
I'm familiar with why the changes are being made, and as I said, changes were/are needed.
Sometimes, in history, whiners accomplish some good. It doesn't change the fact that they were whiners. It's not like they were hardworkers who just saw the perfect time to start whining. It's that they were always whiners who finally had a valid outlet.
Of course, maybe this guy is the exception to the rule, but I doubt it.
Click to expand...

I don't know many people who made into Hopkins med school and Hopkins residency (or any other top-10 programs) who could possibly be characterized as anything other than extremely hard-working. Why it is considered a great virtue for medical students and residents to not just be willing to bend over, but to be expected to self-lube, self-finger, and scream, "Oh yeah-- go in deeper" while being drilled for three to seven years by the residency system?
 
Gleevec said:
Again and again some people keep mentioning that there are other schools that have acted similarly in 1. egregiously violating a law meant to protect not only residents, but patients as well and 2. blacklisting and threatening a whistleblower for demonstrating noncompliance
Click to expand...

U Mass General Surgery forced its remaining interns to do q2 call last year after several interns dropped out due to overwork.

Most of the people I graduated college with are in residency now, and I can tell you that violations, especially immediately after compliance date, were rampant.

You're asking for another example of a whistleblower, but to my knowledge there is maybe one other school that made the press this year (UCLA? I don't remember), and I haven't heard any follow-up on that. The ACGME made an example out of Hopkins, and everyone else took note.

While refusing to allow Dr. Madsen to work in the MICU was probably not the best administrative response, the response of the house staff is hardly either surprising or under control of the administration. I would have been furious if, as a third-year medicine resident, an intern not a week into the job had gotten my program's accreditation revoked and I was facing ANOTHER 3 years to get certified in internal medicine. When he claims his peers supported him, I don't think they had losing accreditation in mind.

I don't know why Dr. Madsen left Hopkins. I have doubts as to whether his "ban" from the MICU would have held up, and given that he wrote the ACGME on an angry whim, he might well have resigned in a similar mindset. As Rapid pointed out, he hardly had time to exhaust all the options that first week.
 
VienneseWaltz said:
U Mass General Surgery forced its remaining interns to do q2 call last year after several interns dropped out due to overwork.

Most of the people I graduated college with are in residency now, and I can tell you that violations, especially immediately after compliance date, were rampant.

You're asking for another example of a whistleblower, but to my knowledge there is maybe one other school that made the press this year (UCLA? I don't remember), and I haven't heard any follow-up on that. The ACGME made an example out of Hopkins, and everyone else took note.

While refusing to allow Dr. Madsen to work in the MICU was probably not the best administrative response, the response of the house staff is hardly either surprising or under control of the administration. I would have been furious if, as a third-year medicine resident, an intern not a week into the job had gotten my program's accreditation revoked and I was facing ANOTHER 3 years to get certified in internal medicine. When he claims his peers supported him, I don't think they had losing accreditation in mind.

I don't know why Dr. Madsen left Hopkins. I have doubts as to whether his "ban" from the MICU would have held up, and given that he wrote the ACGME on an angry whim, he might well have resigned in a similar mindset. As Rapid pointed out, he hardly had time to exhaust all the options that first week.
Click to expand...


IIRC, he was actually threatened by some of the IM residents. BTW, he was an EM resident, and I think one of his allegations (or his perception) was that the IM service dumped on off-service residents.
 
VienneseWaltz said:
The ACGME made an example out of Hopkins, and everyone else took note.
Click to expand...

Well, I think they did the right thing picking Hopkins. Hopkins reputation is so good they can afford a minor blemish.

The primary promoter of the working hour restrictions was the father of the girl Libby Zion who died as a result of the overworked residents in New York. It is all about the patients after all .... isn't it? This is not about resident training it is about patient safety, teaching hospitals are no longer just charity wards, patients should expect high quality care from residents who are alert and unimpaired.

I know that after 36 hours awake I would be a basket case so I celebrate the end of 36 hour shifts. 🙂
 
skypilot said:
Well, I think they did the right thing picking Hopkins. Hopkins reputation is so good they can afford a minor blemish.

The primary promoter of the working hour restrictions was the father of the girl Libby Zion who died as a result of the overworked residents in New York. It is all about the patients after all .... isn't it? This is not about resident training it is about patient safety, teaching hospitals are no longer just charity wards, patients should expect high quality care from residents who are alert and unimpaired.

I know that after 36 hours awake I would be a basket case so I celebrate the end of 36 hour shifts. 🙂
Click to expand...


JHU was granted almost immediate probationary certification so it wasn't much of a threat to any resident.

And I'm with you about the 36 hour shifts. Thats one of the reasons that I decided to become a physician now. I don't think I could handle 36 hours awake any more.
 
Just an aside to clear things up. I dont think this is a problem endemic to Hopkins in general. It seems moreso to be the management culture rather than something all students or even residents act as. I know a couple of former JHU residents, they're really great people. Honestly, I dont want to come across as having beef with JHU, because in general the people there are fantastic. Its just the small minority of residents that were in cahoots with the seemingly corrupt administration that have caused all these problems. Im sure 95% of the school had nothing to do with this, but its the 5%, and namely those in the upper levels of managment, that have really irked me on this issue.
 
Gleevec is right about this.

Dr. Charles Wiener, director of "Osler's Marines" is an dingus. He has an ego the size of Texas. He tried to intimidate and get an organized backlash against Madsden. Furthermore, he consistently lies with his bogus claims that Hopkins IM was never breaking the rules. He is a lying liar.

Hopkins IM has great training, probably the best in the world, HOWEVER, their leadership is a bunch of egotistical dinguses who all have a "holier than thou" attitude. I encourage all the Hopkins med students to have a chat with the people in charge of IM, and you will quickly realize you are being drenched with pompous, dripping egotistical attitude.

These people are great technical doctors, but they are also dinguses of the highest caliber. They self-select other dinguses in their IM residency program. Next time have a chat with some of them. They are the spitting image of their director: very smart intelligent people, but incredibly tightly wound as well.
 
thanks for bringing this up, Gleevec. 👍

this is quite disturbing, although sadly predictable. 3-4 years ago (i think), there was a television miniseries about JH on ABC called "Hopkins 24/7". i think they still show the re-runs on the Discovery Health channel. anyway, one thing i remember is how they totally beat the piss out of their surgical residents (anybody want a resident who's been up 35 hours sewing you up? didn't think so.). i knew right then and there that hopkins is not the place for me.

anybody else remember that show?

also, like Gleevec keeps asking, if anyone can provide some links to similar stories about other big-time programs, that would kick ass.
 
MacGyver said:
Gleevec is right about this.

Dr. Charles Wiener, director of "Osler's Marines" is an dingus. He has an ego the size of Texas. He tried to intimidate and get an organized backlash against Madsden. Furthermore, he consistently lies with his bogus claims that Hopkins IM was never breaking the rules. He is a lying liar.

Hopkins IM has great training, probably the best in the world, HOWEVER, their leadership is a bunch of egotistical dinguses who all have a "holier than thou" attitude. I encourage all the Hopkins med students to have a chat with the people in charge of IM, and you will quickly realize you are being drenched with pompous, dripping egotistical attitude.
Click to expand...

MacGyver, I had no idea you were so in with the Hopkins faculty. How do you know all those personal facts?

I certainly don't condone Dr. Wiener's actions if what Dr. Madsen is saying is true. But I'm not going to take Madsen's words at face value without knowing the other half of the story. If he had stayed on, like VW says, I doubt that ban from the MICU would have held up. Other than what was mentioned in the article I'm not sure where you're getting all these accusations.

I do know about Dr. Wiener from personal experience because he is intimately involved with medical education at Hopkins from the first year of med school all the way through residency. I appreciate you telling me what I'll realize, but I can actually form my own opinion. Thanks.
 
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