Interesting video

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hematosis

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didnt see the video, could someone give us a quick recap
 
Its amazing how the link was removed.

To summarize, it was Dr. Thomas N. Joseph, some orthopedic surgeon who made remarks such as "Podiatrist are NOT real doctors and do not have any real medical training" and that people should be very cautious of them. He also hinted to the notion that podiatry is like acupuncture and no much different than a chiropractor. Further he suggested that although they are legally allowed to perform surgery, they should not be allowed to do so. Some of the most hideous things I have ever heard came out of this doctors mouth. I am thinking he was either seriously misinformed about the profession or uses this type of remarks to attract patients to himself. Either way, it looked quite unprofessional and made him look like a complete idiot.
 
hematosis said:
Its amazing how the link was removed.

To summarize, it was Dr. Thomas N. Joseph, some orthopedic surgeon who made remarks such as "Podiatrist are NOT real doctors and do not have any real medical training" and that people should be very cautious of them. He also hinted to the notion that podiatry is like acupuncture and no much different than a chiropractor. Further he suggested that although they are legally allowed to perform surgery, they should not be allowed to do so. Some of the most hideous things I have ever heard came out of this doctors mouth. I am thinking he was either seriously misinformed about the profession or uses this type of remarks to attract patients to himself. Either way, it looked quite unprofessional and made him look like a complete idiot.
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Although many of my referral sources are orthopedics surgeons and many are supportive of me and our residents, there are some just like Dr. Joseph. They spew lies and do everything in their power to discredit podiatry, initiate lawsuits, limit privileges, and make our lives difficult. The difference between most of these naysayers and Dr. Jospeh is they are smart enough not to cross the line and blantly lie and slander us publicly. Behind the scenes to their colleagues, nurses, and referring MDs they may say the absurd but not where it is on the record.

As far as your idiot comment. Yes to you and me he looked foolish but imagine an uninformed lay person who legitimately was questioning who she/he should see for his/her foot problem an orthopod or a podiatrist? Remember many still have no clue as to what we do and our training. Some think we are MDs and some think we are still chiropodists. Most think they know what an MD is and does so when one attacks us they tend to believe them.

Moral of the story: No matter how far we have come, regardless of your training (notice Dr. Joseph lumped all DPMs together), and even if you become a local or national name you are always under the microscope and should never be lulled into complacency. We all believe that the DOs have made it and are completely accepted but even they are still attacked at various levels both publicly and behind the scenes.
 
👍
Podfather said:
Although many of my referral sources are orthopedics surgeons and many are supportive of me and our residents, there are some just like Dr. Joseph. They spew lies and do everything in their power to discredit podiatry, initiate lawsuits, limit privileges, and make our lives difficult. The difference between most of these naysayers and Dr. Jospeh is they are smart enough not to cross the line and blantly lie and slander us publicly. Behind the scenes to their colleagues, nurses, and referring MDs they may say the absurd but not where it is on the record.

As far as your idiot comment. Yes to you and me he looked foolish but imagine an uninformed lay person who legitimately was questioning who she/he should see for his/her foot problem an orthopod or a podiatrist? Remember many still have no clue as to what we do and our training. Some think we are MDs and some think we are still chiropodists. Most think they know what an MD is and does so when one attacks us they tend to believe them.

Moral of the story: No matter how far we have come, regardless of your training (notice Dr. Joseph lumped all DPMs together), and even if you become a local or national name you are always under the microscope and should never be lulled into complacency. We all believe that the DOs have made it and are completely accepted but even they are still attacked at various levels both publicly and behind the scenes.
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Podfather said:
They took it down. I saw it. It was unbelievable and a potential lawsuit.
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It's still available here:
http://www.5min.com/Video/Podiatrist-vs-Orthopaedic-Physician-for-Foot-Injury-516925265

air bud said:
didnt see the video, could someone give us a quick recap
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In the event it gets pulled again, here's the transcript:

"An orthopedic doctor, an orthopedist, is an actual medical doctor who underwent regular medical training, [and] has an MD. So [an orthopedic surgeon] did 4 years of medical school, one-year intern ship, then 5 years of residency in orthopedic surgery. Podiatrists are not medical doctors, they don't have any real official medical training. Actually, they do not go to medical school. They have ‘podiatric training' and it's not very well regulated. So, they're training is not considered ‘medical.'

Their [podiatrists] treatments are not in the ‘main-stream' of medicine, it's more along the lines of chiropractics or acupuncture where they are considered paramedical practitioners.
There are some things that they can treat. They can do toenail trimming, callus trimming, certain orthotics that they can treat for certain foot problems. I do not feel that its appropriate for them to do any surgical treatments, although they're legal allowed to do so. I did a foot and ankle fellowship and I had to treat a lot of problems caused by podiatric surgical treatments.

My personal opinion is that they do not have the appropriate training to do those kinds of treatments
Most people do not know that they are not medical doctors, that they don't go to medical school. Similar to a lawyer who has to take the bar before you're considered a practicing lawyer, medical students have to take three phases of testing. For orthopedics there is an additional two tests. If you do a sub-sepecialty there is sometimes another test. So of those potentially six tests, podiatrists take none of them and the tests that they do take are not reviewed by any medical practitioner.
Nobody that went to medical school reviews their testing.

So my take home point is that you have to be very careful with podiatrists. Some of them are fairly good practitioners, but they are not nearly as tightly regulated and their quality is not nearly as tightly monitored as in the legitimate medical profession. So, they can do some treatments but I'd be very careful and very resistant to having them do any type of surgeries"
 
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wow. if i had a foot/ankle prob, i definately would not go to him. he cant even speak with confidence. hes like a tea partier, always venting about one problem, and no confidence when it comes to the real issue.
 
Nothing this guy said is true. He is a complete tool. Some Podiatrist probably showed him up or corrected him and he had to complain and get all prideful on a video. We are like chiropractors? We didn't go to a real medical school? we don't take their same exams? Wow! I would expect an 80 year old Orthopedic surgeon say something like this, but a younger guy? Troll!
 
Obviously his statements are wildly inaccurate (quite entertaining nonetheless), the interesting part is this: if we are so poorly trained, blatantly incompetent and posed no threat to him, he would not have any reason to even mention us.

It says quite a bit about how far our training has come that a F/A trained ortho would go out of his way to make a video like this.


He also has beady little eyes and I'm pretty certain dtrack would beat him up to protect out honor if we asked nicely.
 
dtrack22 said:
On one hand, he's in a state where podiatrists can't touch the ankle and he did do a residency in New York where I'm sure he saw a lot of whack jobs practicing podiatry.
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Why do you assume there are "...a lot of whack jobs practicing podiatry" in that state? If this was said tongue in cheek I missed it, sorry.
 
I have yet to hear anything positive about a New York residency program. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but if this ortho worked with some pod residents the chances they were great students who knew their stuff and were receiving great training is smaller than many other states.

Plus, the northeast is so saturated that basic statistics would say there are more poorly trained pods in that area (NY included) than outside of NY, NJ, PA, etc. Not saying per capita it is any different than anywhere else, but you are more likely to run across a "bad" pod when the population of podiatrists is higher. Just like you're more likely so see a midget running down the street in his underwear in NYC than you are in Lincoln, Nebraska.
 
dtrack22 said:
Just like you're more likely so see a midget running down the street in his underwear in NYC than you are in Lincoln, Nebraska.
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Now I know you're kidding around.

Just curious. How do you "rate" practitioners anyway? How does one decide whether they are good or bad? Do you do it based on word of mouth, surgical outcomes, their patient base or other criteria?

Just as a point of interest, every medical specialty has some practitioners that their colleagues would prefer didn't represent them in the public eye. In your opinion, is this more the case in our profession you think?
 
This guy obviously has no clue what kind of education we receive. But what's even worse is that he is clueless on the amount of education he has received over his 18 years of medical knowledge.

So according to him (http://orthodoc.aaos.org/thomasjoseph/index.cfm) he specializes in foot and ankle, hand and wrist, shoulder, hip and knee. From my calculations he started school in 1993 giving him 18 years of medical experience. He says he has 5 areas of specialty. So divide 18 years of experience by 5 specialties and you get an average of 3.6 years per specialty. Or we can take his residency/ fellowship numbers, because we know he didn't specialize in school... 7 years at 5 specialties= 1.4 per specialty.

So according to his video he says he is well qualified and lots of experience. You guys don't have to correct me because I know I am right but don't we have almost 7 years of foot and ankle training and schooling. While he is claiming that his 3.6 year average of training on foot and ankle is sufficiently better and gives him grounds to claim that we are not trained well enough. Man it must be sad to be him.

I know this might be biased but still kind of funny that he is only a mediocre Dr. according to reviews.
http://www.healthgrades.com/directo.../dr-thomas-joseph-md-d2cc7285/patient-ratings

Disclaimer: My math skills are directly related to the length, intensity, and focus of podiatry school. That being said, I needed a calculator to do all the averages related to this post. Hopefully Dr. Thomas Joseph can check my numbers though.
 
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He trained under Myerson who is one of the top F&A orthopods in the country so I have no doubt that his training was good so no need to knock on his training even though he is a liar.

It's obvious what he is doing though. Podiatrists are too much competition for him. It's so funny seeing him squirming and consciously lying through his teeth. Notice how he pauses a lot and his tone changes when he starts spreading lies about Podiatric education and training.
 
janV88 said:
He trained under Myerson who is one of the top F&A orthopods in the country so I have no doubt that his training was good so no need to knock on his training even though he is a liar.
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Just because you are sought after as a lecturer and have a textbook published doesn't necessarily make you the top of your field. Do you know Myerson as an individual or as a practitioner other than what you have read about him? Knowing him and seeing his work would be the only way you can make this statement imho. There are many out there in our profession and in others who aren't published and no one has "heard" of them, but they are certainly the top of their respective fields. Food for thought.
 
janV88 said:
He trained under Myerson who is one of the top F&A orthopods in the country so I have no doubt that his training was good so no need to knock on his training even though he is a liar.
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I'm not necessarily knocking on his training and I have been told you can teach a monkey surgery so it shouldn't be hard to specialize in all five areas he claims he can perform.

However, using his logic, if our four years of school and three years of surgical residency all based on the foot is not a quality enough of an education to perform surgery, than there is no way you should trust him to be able to do hip or knee surgery because he doesn't have enough education based in those particular specialties.
 
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janV88 said:
He trained under Myerson who is one of the top F&A orthopods in the country so I have no doubt that his training was good so no need to knock on his training even though he is a liar.

It's obvious what he is doing though. Podiatrists are too much competition for him. It's so funny seeing him squirming and consciously lying through his teeth. Notice how he pauses a lot and his tone changes when he starts spreading lies about Podiatric education and training.
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Training with an excellent doctor such as Myerson doesn't make you an excellent doctor. Just ask any DPM who practiced in Philadelphia about 15 years ago. A very good friend of mine has a practice in Philly and he interviewed a foot/ankle orthopedist to work for HIS practice!!!!

This M.D. did his fellowship with Myerson and was never able to find success. He originally opened his own practice and floundered because it took him about 3 hours to perform a bunionectomy/osteotomy (my friend performed his residency where this doctor worked). He then floated from practice to practice and is no longer even practicing medicine. I was told he was a very nice guy AND podiatry friendly, but not a very competent surgeon.

So despite his great training, he simply didn't have what it took to be successful.
 
Kidsfeet said:
Just because you are sought after as a lecturer and have a textbook published doesn't necessarily make you the top of your field...
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I definitely agree. I was just talking about his training. What one does with it is dependent on them.


PodSquad7 said:
I'm not necessarily knocking on his training and I have been told you can teach a monkey surgery so it shouldn't be hard to specialize in all five areas he claims he can perform...
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Ok I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.


PADPM said:
Training with an excellent doctor such as Myerson doesn't make you an excellent doctor...
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I agree that good training does not necessarily equal success. The same could be said with DPMs. I was just pointing out that he had good training.
 
http://www.camdenboneandjoint.com/contact.php

That's the contact us page of the Orthopedist. If you choose to leave a comment for Thomas Joseph and his group then please act professional and EDUCATE him. Please refrain from "hate mail". 1) It would not get us anywhere and 2) I'm sure they keep a copy of IP addresses so it's not as anonymous as you would think.

EDIT:
Here's a thread I found on another Podiatry Forum discussing this.

http://www.podiatry.com/etalk/Orthopedist-attacks-Podiatry-t3522.html
 
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janV88 said:
http://www.camdenboneandjoint.com/contact.php

That's the contact us page of the Orthopedist. If you choose to leave a comment for Thomas Joseph and his group then please act professional and EDUCATE him. Please refrain from "hate mail". 1) It would not get us anywhere and 2) I'm sure they keep a copy of IP addresses so it's not as anonymous as you would think.

EDIT:
Here's a thread I found on another Podiatry Forum discussing this.

http://www.podiatry.com/etalk/Orthopedist-attacks-Podiatry-t3522.html
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Well, let me start off by saying that I completely disagree with the orthopedic surgeon.

I watched the video and those are some pretty firm and serious statements, but I would not pay attention to them although, honestly...it did get me laughing because of its ridiculous nature. Albeit alot of those strong statements were worded carefully, "In my opinion", "I personally don't feel". As you all stated your profession has proven itself over and over again. Don't start flailing about when one dude comes around and says those things about your profession, you give un-needed attention to the issue and give him more of an audience.

Even in medicine there is that type of B.S. I'm a pathology resident afterall, and many don't consider us to be 'real doctors'. But we like it that way 😉
 
Path or bust said:
Well, let me start off by saying that I completely disagree with the orthopedic surgeon.

I watched the video and those are some pretty firm and serious statements, but I would not pay attention to them although, honestly...it did get me laughing because of its ridiculous nature. Albeit alot of those strong statements were worded carefully, "In my opinion", "I personally don't feel". As you all stated your profession has proven itself over and over again. Don't start flailing about when one dude comes around and says those things about your profession, you give un-needed attention to the issue and give him more of an audience.

Even in medicine there is that type of B.S. I'm a pathology resident afterall, and many don't consider us to be 'real doctors'. But we like it that way 😉
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I completely understand what you mean but there are a couple of things that, IMO, make this particular issue stand out a little more than just one person's opinion. 1) The video is part of an educational series directed towards patients. 2) Dr. Joseph is the Secretary/Treasurer of the South Carolina Orthopaedic Association and President of the Kershaw County Medical Society. 3) South Carolina, the state Dr. Joseph practices in, is one of the few states left that do not allow Podiatrists to touch the ankle. His uneducated opinion can have huge consequences.

Here is a blog post regarding the scope or practice issue in South Carolina. http://www.podiatrytoday.com/blogged/a-closer-look-at-scope-of-practice-battles-in-south-carolina
 
Could someone please report this video to AMPA? I send them an email but i don't have their number.

here is the link: http://www.apma.org/Footer/ContactUs.aspx

it is very serious and unprofessional when a Licensed medical professional advices falsified information and misleads his patients.
 
janV88 said:
http://www.camdenboneandjoint.com/contact.php

That's the contact us page of the Orthopedist. If you choose to leave a comment for Thomas Joseph and his group then please act professional and EDUCATE him. Please refrain from "hate mail". 1) It would not get us anywhere and 2) I'm sure they keep a copy of IP addresses so it's not as anonymous as you would think.

EDIT:
Here's a thread I found on another Podiatry Forum discussing this.

http://www.podiatry.com/etalk/Orthopedist-attacks-Podiatry-t3522.html
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I appreciate your thoughts, but do you really think or believe that any comments left by DPM's will have any impact on his tunnel vision. Do you really believe that he doesn't already know the present education requirements, or to you think his goal is simply spreading propaganda and misinformation?

He is simply ignorant, but knows exactly what he is doing and trying to accomplish. Apparently he is extremely insecure, and instead of being proud of his own accomplishments and confident in his own abilities, he has to resort to attempting to denigrate his "competition" with false information.

In orthopedics, he is at the bottom of the food chain and in essence the least respected. And obviously, he must not even be THAT successful or well respected in his "specialty" of the foot and ankle, since according to his website, he also does other surgical procedures.

Other well respected foot/ankle orthopedists such as Myerson, Mann, Wapner limit their practice to foot and ankle surgery since they are so busy, but apparently he's not.

So you can write to this tool, but he already knows the truth, but it scares him. You can see it in his eyes.
 
error. Inadvertant post.
 
ACFAS to M.D.: Remove Inaccurate Video

Last week ACFAS sent a cease and desist letter to an orthopedic surgeon who had posted an Internet video of himself that contained inaccurate and disparaging information about the training and qualifications of DPMs. The surgeon is involved in negotiations over a state's scope-of-practice legislation.

The College warned, "ACFAS intends to hold you personally responsible for any and all damages accruing to its more than 6,000 members from the untrue statements and other defamatory material in the video. Your continued dissemination of the video will only increase the damages due to ACFAS and its members."

http://www.acfas.org/ThisWeek/ThisWeek_current.html
 
Sig Savant said:
ACFAS to M.D.: Remove Inaccurate Video

Last week ACFAS sent a cease and desist letter to an orthopedic surgeon who had posted an Internet video of himself that contained inaccurate and disparaging information about the training and qualifications of DPMs. The surgeon is involved in negotiations over a state's scope-of-practice legislation.

The College warned, “ACFAS intends to hold you personally responsible for any and all damages accruing to its more than 6,000 members from the untrue statements and other defamatory material in the video. Your continued dissemination of the video will only increase the damages due to ACFAS and its members.”

http://www.acfas.org/ThisWeek/ThisWeek_current.html
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This is great! When I first posted this thread I had no idea it will go all out and get the podiatry community involved (word was also spread to www.podiatry.com). While we don't know what, if anything, will happen with this orthopedic surgeon, at least its reassuring to see the podiatry community step up and address this kind of derogatory behavior professionally. 👍
 
dtrack22 said:
Nothing will happen to him. He's lawyered up and as soon as it's taken down from the other site that'll be the end of it.

http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/apma/defamatory2.pdf
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Although I believe in the political approach to solving these types of problems, there are times when we must be a aggressive. IMO this is one of them. If we do not demonstrate that when you cross the line publically that we will come after you, then this behavior will continue. If we simply work to have the video taken off (something that probably is not comletely achievable; ask anyone who posted something embarassing on Facebook) then what is to keep a smarter competitor to walk the line legally in the next web based attack. I am not a fan of lawsuits and know the game of litigation but there are times when we need to make someone put in the time, money, and have the stress for blantantly attacking Podiatry.

The APMA needs to be the sleeping giant that is awakened, report this individual to his state medical board, his associations, and seek reparations in court. The process should be exhausted throughout appeals and make others realize we will not tolerate attacks on our profession.

I have mostly taken the high road over the years but have put on the gloves when it was the only choice. Our competitors often do not treat us with the same respect and work in the gutter with innuendo, inaccuracies, and sometimes blantant slander. Sometimes conventional wars fail when fighting guerillas.
 
Podfather said:
Although I believe in the political approach to solving these types of problems, there are times when we must be a aggressive. IMO this is one of them. If we do not demonstrate that when you cross the line publically that we will come after you, then this behavior will continue. If we simply work to have the video taken off (something that probably is not comletely achievable; ask anyone who posted something embarassing on Facebook) then what is to keep a smarter competitor to walk the line legally in the next web based attack. I am not a fan of lawsuits and know the game of litigation but there are times when we need to make someone put in the time, money, and have the stress for blantantly attacking Podiatry.

The APMA needs to be the sleeping giant that is awakened, report this individual to his state medical board, his associations, and seek reparations in court. The process should be exhausted throughout appeals and make others realize we will not tolerate attacks on our profession.

I have mostly taken the high road over the years but have put on the gloves when it was the only choice. Our competitors often do not treat us with the same respect and work in the gutter with innuendo, inaccuracies, and sometimes blantant slander. Sometimes conventional wars fail when fighting guerillas.
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Agree 100%. Both the APMA and the ACFAS have retained legal council on the matter and are pursuing legal action against this individual. Cease and desist orders have already been filed, and the individual is going to be held personally, legally accountable if this video causes our profession any undue harm.

(Gets on Soapbox) See...this is a perfect example of what is wrong with what happened to the split with the APMA and the ACFAS. Now TWO organizations are spending resources (time, money, staff) to fight the same fight. Rather than band together and SHARE the burden of this and unite us as a profession, we look more fragmented to the Orthopedic community. In examples like this, egos and politics should be put aside for the greater good of us all. (Gets off Soapbox)
 
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Video is down according to the APMA. Unless more is going on behind closed doors, so to speak, I'm afraid podfather isn't going to see an example made of Dr. Joseph. From what I can tell once the cease and desist was satisfied that would be the end of it.

Personally I'm all for dragging him through the mud. Or at least getting more attention brought to the video and it's inaccuracies. Sometimes you gotta hit the QB in the mouth, let him know you're there, and rattle him a little bit.
 
Kidsfeet said:
Agree 100%. Both the APMA and the ACFAS have retained legal council on the matter and are pursuing legal action against this individual. Cease and desist orders have already been filed, and the individual is going to be held personally, legally accountable if this video causes our profession any undue harm.

(Gets on Soapbox) See...this is a perfect example of what is wrong with what happened to the split with the APMA and the ACFAS. Now TWO organizations are spending resources (time, money, staff) to fight the same fight. Rather than band together and SHARE the burden of this and unite us as a profession, we look more fragmented to the Orthopedic community. In examples like this, egos and politics should be put aside for the greater good of us all. (Gets off Soapbox)
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In this case a 2 front battle may be better but I get your point. I would argue ego had nothing to do with the split (maybe the lack of a compromise). I have been a member of APMA since a student as well as ACFAS. I think both organizations have positives and negatives. I have been in leadership positions in both. However, all organizations should be able to stand on their own. If both are doing what they should members will stay members. Mandating membership just smells bad to me. I even believe mandating state association membership to be part of APMA has some issues. One of the original issues was a ACFAS member who was in a state where after several attempts to work within, the state association was doing some things that were not the best for the profession (trying to be nice). The member wanted to stay in APMA but resign his state membership was told no and resigned from both. Because of this he was forced to resign from ACFAS.

Remember AMA membership is not required for most colleges in medicine and even sub-specialty organizations are not mandated to join AMA.

BTW I am still a member in both and recommend that to all.
 
Podfather said:
In this case a 2 front battle may be better but I get your point. I would argue ego had nothing to do with the split (maybe the lack of a compromise). I have been a member of APMA since a student as well as ACFAS. I think both organizations have positives and negatives. I have been in leadership positions in both. However, all organizations should be able to stand on their own. If both are doing what they should members will stay members. Mandating membership just smells bad to me. I even believe mandating state association membership to be part of APMA has some issues. One of the original issues was a ACFAS member who was in a state where after several attempts to work within, the state association was doing some things that were not the best for the profession (trying to be nice). The member wanted to stay in APMA but resign his state membership was told no and resigned from both. Because of this he was forced to resign from ACFAS.
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Any organization can stand alone if they like, but then they can't be "Affiliates" under the APMA.

There is always a choice to comply with the APMA bylaws concerning this or not. Eventually, the ACFAS decided not to comply, so the APMA had no choice but to follow its bylaws and ask the ACFAS to remove its affiliate status.

I was at a very ummmm explosive meeting several years ago between all the affiliates and the APMA, and if you had been there, I think you would have agreed that there was a lot of chest pounding going on. This was well before the split, but you could smell the outcome of this situation in the air even then.

Once again, its not a matter of whether you "have" to do anything. Its a matter of complying with the bylaws. In your opinion should the APMA have completely changed its bylaws with regard to "Affiliate" status such that the ACFAS wouldn't have split off? If your answer is yes, how do you think it would have affected the other affiliates?

I too am a member of the APMA, the ACFAS, as well as the ASPS, so I have loyalty to all of them and truly believe that each one has a place. However, there is a political advantage to being under the APMA whether people believe it or not.
 
Podfather said:
I hope more than what they did with the Consumers Report Article or the ABC 20/20 debacle. We definitely didn't do a good job there.
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My understanding is that yes, more is being done than in those situations.
 
Kidsfeet said:
Any organization can stand alone if they like, but then they can't be "Affiliates" under the APMA.

There is always a choice to comply with the APMA bylaws concerning this or not. Eventually, the ACFAS decided not to comply, so the APMA had no choice but to follow its bylaws and ask the ACFAS to remove its affiliate status.

I was at a very ummmm explosive meeting several years ago between all the affiliates and the APMA, and if you had been there, I think you would have agreed that there was a lot of chest pounding going on. This was well before the split, but you could smell the outcome of this situation in the air even then.

Once again, its not a matter of whether you "have" to do anything. Its a matter of complying with the bylaws. In your opinion should the APMA have completely changed its bylaws with regard to "Affiliate" status such that the ACFAS wouldn't have split off? If your answer is yes, how do you think it would have affected the other affiliates?

I too am a member of the APMA, the ACFAS, as well as the ASPS, so I have loyalty to all of them and truly believe that each one has a place. However, there is a political advantage to being under the APMA whether people believe it or not.
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Yes bylaws should be followed but they can also be changed. To be blunt, it appears that APMA is afraid of letting people decide on their own if their dues are worth it. I know they are but why force state membership or affiliate status. If they wanted to they could have let it happen and not started ASPS. Once they started ASPS the hopes for reconciliation of some type died. Also remember ACFAS was requiring that before becoming a Fellow or Associate, you had to be a member of APMA. After the intial period then members could decide. APMA would have had people captured and then shown why members should stay.
 
Podfather said:
Yes bylaws should be followed but they can also be changed. To be blunt, it appears that APMA is afraid of letting people decide on their own if their dues are worth it. I know they are but why force state membership or affiliate status. If they wanted to they could have let it happen and not started ASPS. Once they started ASPS the hopes for reconciliation of some type died. Also remember ACFAS was requiring that before becoming a Fellow or Associate, you had to be a member of APMA. After the intial period then members could decide. APMA would have had people captured and then shown why members should stay.
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Although I agree with what you're saying, what about the other affiliates? Do it for one and you HAVE to do for others. So now the thousand or so ACFAOM Members/Fellows start wondering why they can't just have the APMA change the bylaws for them too. Then what about the thousand or so Members/Fellows of the American Academy of Podiatric Sports Medicine? Now all of a sudden you have about 8000 or so members of the APMA (Between ACFAS, ACFAOM and AAPSM) questioning their membership with the APMA? This is a very slippery slope.

One thing I tell people who ask me about why they should become ASPS members, is that with the ASPS working hand in hand with the APMA (which at this point is NOT happening between the ACFAS and the APMA), they have a more direct line to lobbying for politically charged issues like scope of practice and privileging through the APMA. Even though this can be downplayed, my view is that the importance of this is HUGE. I do have some misgivings with the ASPS, but I am actively involving myself and helping to address these issues internally with them.
 
Kidsfeet said:
Although I agree with what you're saying, what about the other affiliates? Do it for one and you HAVE to do for others. So now the thousand or so ACFAOM Members/Fellows start wondering why they can't just have the APMA change the bylaws for them too. Then what about the thousand or so Members/Fellows of the American Academy of Podiatric Sports Medicine? Now all of a sudden you have about 8000 or so members of the APMA (Between ACFAS, ACFAOM and AAPSM) questioning their membership with the APMA? This is a very slippery slope.

One thing I tell people who ask me about why they should become ASPS members, is that with the ASPS working hand in hand with the APMA (which at this point is NOT happening between the ACFAS and the APMA), they have a more direct line to lobbying for politically charged issues like scope of practice and privileging through the APMA. Even though this can be downplayed, my view is that the importance of this is HUGE. I do have some misgivings with the ASPS, but I am actively involving myself and helping to address these issues internally with them.
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I believe APMA is worth the dues. But when you coerce membership and piggyback off your own affiliates that is the slippery slope. If the APMA really believes they will lose all of the members of ACFOAM and other affiliates you mentioned above by not mandating membership in APMA then they are not doing their jobs. Really what is the final count of lost ACFAS members anyway? The spin has been it is very small. If true this would hold for the other affiliates as well. Let's just do what we say we are going to do and let the membership be members because they want to not have to.
 
I don't think coercion is a factor in APMA membership. I think its just a matter of good politics and a wise investment in ones professional future.

Trying to equate the ACFAS issues with coercion is silly imho. The vote to pass this change in bylaws to not require APMA membership after the first year only passed by 2% (51% for/49% against). What that means is if ALL the ACFAS membership voted, which is unlikely, the margin was only about 150 people. That is not a resounding call for change in my book. It was enough to pass the change sure, but not by a wide enough margin to really thumb the finger in the eye of the APMA and say "SEE...it's what EVERYONE wanted!!!!". I'm sure some very influential members had a lot to do with how the vote went. Particularly since it was by no means a landslide "victory".

Just as a side note too, BOTH sides are not willing to give. Concession have to be agreed to by both sides, and neither will budge. I don't think its fair to place the blame on one side or the other.
 
Kidsfeet said:
I don't think coercion is a factor in APMA membership. I think its just a matter of good politics and a wise investment in ones professional future.

Trying to equate the ACFAS issues with coercion is silly imho. The vote to pass this change in bylaws to not require APMA membership after the first year only passed by 2% (51% for/49% against). What that means is if ALL the ACFAS membership voted, which is unlikely, the margin was only about 150 people. That is not a resounding call for change in my book. It was enough to pass the change sure, but not by a wide enough margin to really thumb the finger in the eye of the APMA and say "SEE...it's what EVERYONE wanted!!!!". I'm sure some very influential members had a lot to do with how the vote went. Particularly since it was by no means a landslide "victory".

Just as a side note too, BOTH sides are not willing to give. Concession have to be agreed to by both sides, and neither will budge. I don't think its fair to place the blame on one side or the other.
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Not blaming anyone for the breakup. Just challenging the concept of forcing membership if someone wishes to pick and chose. Why is APMA so afraid of losing anyone??? If you are doing your job not an issue. Being forced into to anything always backfires. I will say this though if ASPS wasn't so qucikly thrown together (and that shows) negotiations would still be an option.
 
not sure if this has ever been answered, but what is the cost of dues for ACFAS and APMA (as a regular member)
 
Podfather said:
Why is APMA so afraid of losing anyone???
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I'm going to go out on a serious limb here and answer your question this way. The APMA is afraid of losing people because more people are worried about the NOW versus the FUTURE. When an organization is consistently under fire by its own constituents there is always going to be that fear. "I can't afford the dues". Forget about how much the APMA does for the profession...

In 25 years do you really think that the ACFAS making a bylaw change that forced the APMA's hand is really going to benefit anyone??
 
air bud said:
not sure if this has ever been answered, but what is the cost of dues for ACFAS and APMA (as a regular member)
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Depending on your state component, I think the dues are between $1000 and $1500 per year for the APMA.

ACFAS dues are (my old brain and its late, so I may be wrong) $600 per year.
 
Podfather said:
I will say this though if ASPS wasn't so qucikly thrown together (and that shows) negotiations would still be an option.
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The APMA won't back down by changing their bylaws to accommodate ONE organization and alienate the other affiliates. The ACFAS won't revert their bylaws back to become an affiliate again (yet). The ASPS is filling the gap the ACFAS allowed to occur. Yes the ASPS will take time to cultivate, granted. What is there to negotiate exactly?

Edit: I wonder what the ACFAS was like when it was started. Yes it is now a juggernaut with 6000 members. Was it so streamlined way back when? Is it really that streamlined now? I've heard comments in my travels about lack of organization from within and a "good old boys club". Maybe a new organization like the ASPS is just what the next generation of Podiatric Surgeons needs. Somewhere where the new minds can flex a bit and forge ahead. New blood is good. I know you know this Podfather.
 
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Kidsfeet said:
Depending on your state component, I think the dues are between $1000 and $1500 per year for the APMA.

ACFAS dues are (my old brain and its late, so I may be wrong) $600 per year.
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I believe the ACFAS dues are in the $450.00 range but that is off the top of my head. In 25 years. the profession will be very different just as it has morphed in the previous 25 years. I feel that ACFAS doing what it did doesn't affect the profession as much as some would like to portray. Membership losses from both organizations have been minimal. I believe if APMA would eliminate mandated membership it's effects would be minimal. Face it people who pay their dues to organizations are good, pro-profession people and tend to do the right thing. Those who do not ALWAYS rationalize a reason. If it were not the ACFAS thing they would be saying the APMA does nothing for me (as we know complete nonsense) or so and so is a bad president or officer and I can not support them. Saprophytes or parasites are just that. Personally if there were a loss of membership those who care would be willing ( perhaps not happy) to pay higher dues because they care about the organization and the profession.

When I suggest APMA change their bylaws to allow personal choice it is because I believe in the long run it will be stronger and will not be affected much.
 
Podfather said:
When I suggest APMA change their bylaws to allow personal choice it is because I believe in the long run it will be stronger and will not be affected much.
Click to expand...

I have the opposite feeling personally. One thing that is being glossed over is that no one HAS to be a member of any of these ancillary colleges either. Certification by ABPS (in my community) is all that's required for hospital privileges.

So given the choice, why would people pay to be ACFAS members, which really doesn't have any political advantages, rather than being an APMA member? THAT makes absolutely NO sense to me. For the journal?? I can read that at our med school. Because its cheaper?? Really?? Yes, APMA membership is 3 times the cost, but you get infinitely more value imho.
 
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