Intern year skills

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chickwithkicks

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Hey guys! I hope you all can help me with my concerns. I’ll be starting intern year in July and I’ll be possibly doing an emergency medicine rotation for a month as part of my off-service months. Will I be expected to do things on my own from day one? Things like putting in sutures? I haven’t done that since brginning of third year and even then only a few times. What other skills/procures will I be expected to know how to do on day 1 unassisted? Thanks for any help!
 
Hey guys! I hope you all can help me with my concerns. I’ll be starting intern year in July and I’ll be possibly doing an emergency medicine rotation for a month as part of my off-service months. Will I be expected to do things on my own from day one? Things like putting in sutures? I haven’t done that since brginning of third year and even then only a few times. What other skills/procures will I be expected to know how to do on day 1 unassisted? Thanks for any help!
Probably not. Being an intern, expectations are low, besides doing notes, getting in orders done, calling consultants. Additionally, if you tell the attending you don’t know how to do “x”, they should help show you.
 
Hey guys! I hope you all can help me with my concerns. I’ll be starting intern year in July and I’ll be possibly doing an emergency medicine rotation for a month as part of my off-service months. Will I be expected to do things on my own from day one? Things like putting in sutures? I haven’t done that since brginning of third year and even then only a few times. What other skills/procures will I be expected to know how to do on day 1 unassisted? Thanks for any help!
No one expects you to be a rock star EM expert at this early stage of your EM career. So, if you need help or assistance, ASK for assistance or help. If you do not know how to do something, say SO.

As a new EM1, you will obtain broad-based knowledge in various areas essential to the practice of emergency medicine, including cardiology, general medicine, anesthesia (e.g., airway management skills), critical care, ultrasound, pediatric emergency medicine, etc.

You will be transitioned into your first-year EM responsibilities via a series of orientation blocks that combine didactic lectures and workshops with clinical skills/shifts. You will also become certified in ACLS, ATLS and PALS.

Be prepared to read, chart, document and deal with lots of paperwork.

Be willing to HELP others, follow-up, remain alert, and take good care of others (including your residents).

As a new EM1, you may be responsible for performing basic non-nursing procedures on patients for whom you are responsible. Later (as a much more experienced EM1) , you may begin to initiate life-saving care and perform more invasive procedures under the supervision of senior EM residents or EM attendings. Over time, sheer volume, exposure and repetition will help you fine-tune and polish many basic EM skills, as you transition forward to EM2 from EM1.

Once again ... if you need help or assistance, ASK for assistance or help. If you do not know how to do something, say SO.

I wish you the very best of success as a new EM-1.
 
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Just do as you’re told, try your best take initiative and responsibility for all your patients, and when you don’t know what to do, ASK. Someone who knows their limits and asks as an intern is wise and much appreciated over a cowboy. Saying “I haven’t done that in a while, could you supervise me for the first few” is never wrong and is expected for an intern. You should know how to get the relevant history and physical, and at least propose your best thoughts on a differential and plan rather than just reporting the info you’ve gathered. What you’re expected to know how to practically accomplish without help, other than that, is minimal - even putting orders or calling consults or writing notes you’ll get feedback and assistance for (could you show me, could you help me clarify what’s my question for this consultant) until you’re comfortable and show yourself able. You’re just expected to work hard, get feedback and progress in knowledge and skill. You can do it.
 
Here are some procedures that you could preview on YouTube: 1) central line placement (jugular or femoral), 2) ultrasound- or palpation-guided subcutaneous abscess drainage, 3) cardioversion, 4) suturing (specifically, subcuticular stitch), 5) intubation. In my experience paracenteses, thoracenteses, and lumbar punctures aren't usually performed by emergency staff. Those patients are usually admitted by medicine and performed by those services in the ED or on the floor.

As stated above, be explicit in your level of experience and comfort with each procedure. "I've never seen one of these before. Could I watch you do one, while you articulate each step and your thought process?" Then "I've seen a couple of these. Can I take a swing at it with your supervision?" Then "I've done several of these. I'm comfortable with them. I'll get started and call you in if I need help."

Regardless of whether you are a categorical or off-service resident, you need to be explicit in your desire to get involved with procedures. There is a substantial proportion of residents who want nothing to do with procedures, so it's incumbent on you to let your supervisor know you're not one of them. Then they'll be more likely to make you aware of any business and get you involved early.

Don't be discouraged if you don't get involved right off the bat. It's very busy in the first few months of the academic year as you (and every other July intern) are very slow at everything. Therefore, the upper levels and attendings will be working overtime to make sure things get done. They may prefer you get good and notes and orders first. Also there's a universal expectation that seniority gets priority with procedures.
 
My expectations for off service residents in the ED are that you show up and see a few patients. Very few off service residents make my job easier, most make it harder. In terms of you doing procedures, I don’t expect anything beyond suturing. If you are interested in intubating, central line, chest tubes, etc you need to practice them in the sim lab and show a lot of enthusiasm when you see Ol’ Drunk McGee for his 575th ED visit this year.
 
No one expects you to be a rock star EM expert at this early stage of your EM career. So, if you need help or assistance, ASK for assistance or help. If you do not know how to do something, say SO.

As a new EM1, you will obtain broad-based knowledge in various areas essential to the practice of emergency medicine, including cardiology, general medicine, anesthesia (e.g., airway management skills), critical care, ultrasound, pediatric emergency medicine, etc.

You will be transitioned into your first-year EM responsibilities via a series of orientation blocks that combine didactic lectures and workshops with clinical skills/shifts. You will also become certified in ACLS, ATLS and PALS.

Be prepared to read, chart, document and deal with lots of paperwork.

Be willing to HELP others, follow-up, remain alert, and take good care of others (including your residents).

As a new EM1, you may be responsible for performing basic non-nursing procedures on patients for whom you are responsible. Later (as a much more experienced EM1) , you may begin to initiate life-saving care and perform more invasive procedures under the supervision of senior EM residents or EM attendings. Over time, sheer volume, exposure and repetition will help you fine-tune and polish many basic EM skills, as you transition forward to EM2 from EM1.

Once again ... if you need help or assistance, ASK for assistance or help. If you do not know how to do something, say SO.

I wish you the very best of success as a new EM-1.
minor point but OP is saying the EM month is their off-service rotation, so I take it they are not an EM-1 (I point this out before this thread turns into a bunch of EM residency specific advice)

still great advice though
 
My expectations for off service residents in the ED are that you show up and see a few patients. Very few off service residents make my job easier, most make it harder. In terms of you doing procedures, I don’t expect anything beyond suturing. If you are interested in intubating, central line, chest tubes, etc you need to practice them in the sim lab and show a lot of enthusiasm when you see Ol’ Drunk McGee for his 575th ED visit this year.
Ironic because I would have felt far more comfortable intubating someone on day 1 than suturing a wound.
 
Or it’s because I didn’t suture a single wound in med school but did a bunch of intubations both in sim labs and on real patients.

Maybe the better example of DK is you thinking you know what my training was like.


I think his point is that the consequences of a failed intubation are much different than screwing up a lac repair. I would never trust an intern to intubate without an experienced attending hovering over them like a hawk. A simple lac repair? Have a go at it. It can always be redone.

FWIW here are a couple of links about intubation proficiency by CCM fellows and another about setting up for success.



 
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yes, the point is that what makes interns dangerous is what they don't know, and not knowing what they don't know, and not being scared enough, and being overconfident

and it's general consensus that even if you have significant experience as a paramedic, anything less than having had residency training that prepares you to manage airways (oh gosh, so many debates here, but only anesthesia & CC regularly wax poetic about their intubation skills), you likely do not have anything approaching the numbers to consider yourself competent. It's been a debate about EM and IM, but depending on the details it is likely reasonable they perform them, but if they come to SDN looking to brag about it, they'll probably get the smack down from a number of people better qualified to do them.

I don't care who you are, any intern should feel more comfortable suturing than intubating. No one, and I repeat no one, should ever feel more comfortable with intubation over suturing a wound. I don't care if the last time you picked up needle driver's was 10 years ago. If that's the case, you need to reconsider the risks of intubation, and reacquaint yourself with basic suturing techniques. Get a pig's foot, order supplies on Amazon, and spend a short afternoon with YouTube.

I too had enough "experience" prior to residency, as a student and a trainee, to "volunteer" myself to attempt an intubation on more than one occasion - under supervision of anesthesia/CC- knowing full well I could knock someone's teeth out (a not so bad outcome I'd seen an experienced anesthesia resident do) all the way up to more severe badness.

So it's one thing if an intern has more or less confidence in seeking out a learning opportunity with a procedure because of past experience - but as a trainee with a fresh yet limited medical license, you should be initially pretty scared about anything you do. Particularly intubation.

People forget that there isn't exactly a reset to intubation attempts either - any one that you do can induce trauma, swelling, regurgitation, and make an otherwise easy intubation more difficult. So there's a risk giving you a "crack" at it, so don't let the fact anesthesia's standing there or your sim lab experience, make you feel complacent about the risks and how important it is that you try to do it right, despite any experience you DO or DON'T have. And that despite "doing it right," it can still go horribly wrong.

I'm sorry, but when paramedics intubate shyte has hit the fan in a way that basically makes that somewhat less pertinent to our discussion of intubating patients in a hospital setting as a physician.

My first intubation attempt as an intern, well, not during the crack at it that I had, or that the senior had, but during the 3rd attempt by the CC attending, during that intubation, the patient aspirated. They promptly developed aspiration pneumonia, ARDS, septic shock, and almost died.

Intubation is serious business. Basic lac wound suturing skills are easy to learn, even on your own. This is what you should walk away knowing from an intern skills thread.
 
yes, the point is that what makes interns dangerous is what they don't know, and not knowing what they don't know, and not being scared enough, and being overconfident

and it's general consensus that even if you have significant experience as a paramedic, anything less than having had residency training that prepares you to manage airways (oh gosh, so many debates here, but only anesthesia & CC regularly wax poetic about their intubation skills), you likely do not have anything approaching the numbers to consider yourself competent. It's been a debate about EM and IM, but depending on the details it is likely reasonable they perform them, but if they come to SDN looking to brag about it, they'll probably get the smack down from a number of people better qualified to do them.

I don't care who you are, any intern should feel more comfortable suturing than intubating. No one, and I repeat no one, should ever feel more comfortable with intubation over suturing a wound. I don't care if the last time you picked up needle driver's was 10 years ago. If that's the case, you need to reconsider the risks of intubation, and reacquaint yourself with basic suturing techniques. Get a pig's foot, order supplies on Amazon, and spend a short afternoon with YouTube.

I too had enough "experience" prior to residency, as a student and a trainee, to "volunteer" myself to attempt an intubation on more than one occasion - under supervision of anesthesia/CC- knowing full well I could knock someone's teeth out (a not so bad outcome I'd seen an experienced anesthesia resident do) all the way up to more severe badness.

So it's one thing if an intern has more or less confidence in seeking out a learning opportunity with a procedure because of past experience - but as a trainee with a fresh yet limited medical license, you should be initially pretty scared about anything you do. Particularly intubation.

People forget that there isn't exactly a reset to intubation attempts either - any one that you do can induce trauma, swelling, regurgitation, and make an otherwise easy intubation more difficult. So there's a risk giving you a "crack" at it, so don't let the fact anesthesia's standing there or your sim lab experience, make you feel complacent about the risks and how important it is that you try to do it right, despite any experience you DO or DON'T have. And that despite "doing it right," it can still go horribly wrong.

I'm sorry, but when paramedics intubate shyte has hit the fan in a way that basically makes that somewhat less pertinent to our discussion of intubating patients in a hospital setting as a physician.

My first intubation attempt as an intern, well, not during the crack at it that I had, or that the senior had, but during the 3rd attempt by the CC attending, during that intubation, the patient aspirated. They promptly developed aspiration pneumonia, ARDS, septic shock, and almost died.

Intubation is serious business. Basic lac wound suturing skills are easy to learn, even on your own. This is what you should walk away knowing from an intern skills thread.

Thank you. Put it more eloquently than I could have.
 
I would also like to add that when students or interns are given the opportunity to intubate, they often are focussed solely on the manual skill of inserting the blade and getting a view. This is necessary in order to develop the manual skill.

What it means though is that they are often unaware of all the other things that are going through their supervisors mind, which is the airway operators responsibility. What are the predictors of a difficult airway here? Have I optimised the position? What are my backup plans 1,2 and 3? What happens if my Iv access fails? How do I optimise the induction for the patients physiology? Do we preox sitting up, or at 45, or flat? Do I do a modified RSI or not? How do I optimise my environment to reduce faffing around?

All of these things are just as crucial to the success of the intubation. They are often not appreciated by beginners because there is someone in the background taking care of all of these things.

It is easy to develop a false sense of confidence after throwing in a few tubes while only having to focus on one part of the intubation procedure. Especially if this is done in a theatre environment. ED intubations are a different ball game because all these patients by definition have unstable physiology.
 
It's been put to me, that there's few procedures in medicine that if it goes horribly wrong, the patient will basically just die in front of you and you have little recourse. Intubation being one of them. I saw this once with a very dramatic pulmonary hemorrhage that happened during an intubation.

People love to go on and on about how you can just get a surgical airway and that's definitive, except for when no one can find the kit on the floor. Yes, that happened. Nevermind the fact that those aren't done often, which might explain why the kit couldn't be found and wasn't properly stocked when it was found. And as a result, a lot of providers have little to no experience with cricothyrotomy.

So unless you can tell me as an intern that you know exactly where that kit is, that it's probably well-stocked, and that you know how to use it - then your attempt to intubate can easily kill or cause irreversible end organ damage, and your attempt to get a surgical airway can do much the same.

I wrote all this before the poster posted above - again, excellent points that successful airway management is about a lot more situational awareness than just throwing in a tube or assuming a scapel and a ball point pen can bail you out.
 
Or it’s because I didn’t suture a single wound in med school but did a bunch of intubations both in sim labs and on real patients.

Maybe the better example of DK is you thinking you know what my training was like.
If you think intubating is easier than suturing for the first time, you have not done enough intubations.
 
yes, the point is that what makes interns dangerous is what they don't know, and not knowing what they don't know, and not being scared enough, and being overconfident

and it's general consensus that even if you have significant experience as a paramedic, anything less than having had residency training that prepares you to manage airways (oh gosh, so many debates here, but only anesthesia & CC regularly wax poetic about their intubation skills), you likely do not have anything approaching the numbers to consider yourself competent. It's been a debate about EM and IM, but depending on the details it is likely reasonable they perform them, but if they come to SDN looking to brag about it, they'll probably get the smack down from a number of people better qualified to do them.

I don't care who you are, any intern should feel more comfortable suturing than intubating. No one, and I repeat no one, should ever feel more comfortable with intubation over suturing a wound. I don't care if the last time you picked up needle driver's was 10 years ago. If that's the case, you need to reconsider the risks of intubation, and reacquaint yourself with basic suturing techniques. Get a pig's foot, order supplies on Amazon, and spend a short afternoon with YouTube.

I too had enough "experience" prior to residency, as a student and a trainee, to "volunteer" myself to attempt an intubation on more than one occasion - under supervision of anesthesia/CC- knowing full well I could knock someone's teeth out (a not so bad outcome I'd seen an experienced anesthesia resident do) all the way up to more severe badness.

So it's one thing if an intern has more or less confidence in seeking out a learning opportunity with a procedure because of past experience - but as a trainee with a fresh yet limited medical license, you should be initially pretty scared about anything you do. Particularly intubation.

People forget that there isn't exactly a reset to intubation attempts either - any one that you do can induce trauma, swelling, regurgitation, and make an otherwise easy intubation more difficult. So there's a risk giving you a "crack" at it, so don't let the fact anesthesia's standing there or your sim lab experience, make you feel complacent about the risks and how important it is that you try to do it right, despite any experience you DO or DON'T have. And that despite "doing it right," it can still go horribly wrong.

I'm sorry, but when paramedics intubate shyte has hit the fan in a way that basically makes that somewhat less pertinent to our discussion of intubating patients in a hospital setting as a physician.

My first intubation attempt as an intern, well, not during the crack at it that I had, or that the senior had, but during the 3rd attempt by the CC attending, during that intubation, the patient aspirated. They promptly developed aspiration pneumonia, ARDS, septic shock, and almost died.

Intubation is serious business. Basic lac wound suturing skills are easy to learn, even on your own. This is what you should walk away knowing from an intern skills thread.


Not to derail the thread, but whether or not EM docs should intubate hasn't been a real "debate" for decades now.

besides that, I generally agree
 
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Not to derail the thread, but whether or not EM docs should intubate hasn't been a real "debate" for decades now.

besides that, I generally agree
lol well we just had that very debate in another thread in the last few months, so fairly recently.


OK, although I see now it was just one anesthesia guy who had something to say about EM. Although I know I've seen it said elsewhere, as much as it mindboggled me. The point, is that depending on what you read, you might come away with the idea that only gas should be intubating, lol. And then enter EM saying that's only true until someone's choking on their own blood with an oral cavity in bony pieces, and that they have more experience with emergent and traumatic intubations. Then in comes ENT saying they can do those better. Then the argument about emergent crichs.

A fair number of people take issue with other specialties intubating, ones that perhaps many med students might not have never even considered controversial to anyone. Mostly, to impress upon med students/new interns, that no one should take intubation for granted. Certainly not paramedics or interns of any specialty, and no matter who you are if you come off sounding cocky about intubations there will be someone somewhere ready to issue you a smackdown.

I forgot to mention before that otolaryngology often does difficult intubations, although I don't know how universally that applies to fresh grads vs some individual providers' practices.
 
yes, the point is that what makes interns dangerous is what they don't know, and not knowing what they don't know, and not being scared enough, and being overconfident

and it's general consensus that even if you have significant experience as a paramedic, anything less than having had residency training that prepares you to manage airways (oh gosh, so many debates here, but only anesthesia & CC regularly wax poetic about their intubation skills), you likely do not have anything approaching the numbers to consider yourself competent. It's been a debate about EM and IM, but depending on the details it is likely reasonable they perform them, but if they come to SDN looking to brag about it, they'll probably get the smack down from a number of people better qualified to do them.

I don't care who you are, any intern should feel more comfortable suturing than intubating. No one, and I repeat no one, should ever feel more comfortable with intubation over suturing a wound. I don't care if the last time you picked up needle driver's was 10 years ago. If that's the case, you need to reconsider the risks of intubation, and reacquaint yourself with basic suturing techniques. Get a pig's foot, order supplies on Amazon, and spend a short afternoon with YouTube.

I too had enough "experience" prior to residency, as a student and a trainee, to "volunteer" myself to attempt an intubation on more than one occasion - under supervision of anesthesia/CC- knowing full well I could knock someone's teeth out (a not so bad outcome I'd seen an experienced anesthesia resident do) all the way up to more severe badness.

So it's one thing if an intern has more or less confidence in seeking out a learning opportunity with a procedure because of past experience - but as a trainee with a fresh yet limited medical license, you should be initially pretty scared about anything you do. Particularly intubation.

People forget that there isn't exactly a reset to intubation attempts either - any one that you do can induce trauma, swelling, regurgitation, and make an otherwise easy intubation more difficult. So there's a risk giving you a "crack" at it, so don't let the fact anesthesia's standing there or your sim lab experience, make you feel complacent about the risks and how important it is that you try to do it right, despite any experience you DO or DON'T have. And that despite "doing it right," it can still go horribly wrong.

I'm sorry, but when paramedics intubate shyte has hit the fan in a way that basically makes that somewhat less pertinent to our discussion of intubating patients in a hospital setting as a physician.

My first intubation attempt as an intern, well, not during the crack at it that I had, or that the senior had, but during the 3rd attempt by the CC attending, during that intubation, the patient aspirated. They promptly developed aspiration pneumonia, ARDS, septic shock, and almost died.

Intubation is serious business. Basic lac wound suturing skills are easy to learn, even on your own. This is what you should walk away knowing from an intern skills thread.
Please tell me the teeth knock out was a very difficult airway outside of the OR.
 
The further I went in training the more respect I gained for intubation/airway management. Like has been said above one of the few "procedures" that can go from normal/routine to absolute terror very quickly.

I'm in a very procedural heavy field finishing in a couple months and if anything I am more cautious than when I started. I now know more than I did before, have seen more cases and thus more complications so I know what can go wrong. A lot of my procedures can also go very wrong and cause very acute decompensation and once you see that you take a step back and develop a new respect for what we do to patients.

All that said..... I agree with pretty much what has already been said. From day you're really not going to be expected to be up to speed on anything in the ED. Biggest thing IMHO is going in with the right attitude of wanting to learn and working hard. A good focused patient history and exam is probably the biggest skill that any intern needs to learn early on. Procedure-wise just let whoever is supervising you know that you are interested in participating in them and if you stay engaged and otherwise function as a member of the team most people will help you learn.
 
Hey guys! I hope you all can help me with my concerns. I’ll be starting intern year in July and I’ll be possibly doing an emergency medicine rotation for a month as part of my off-service months. Will I be expected to do things on my own from day one? Things like putting in sutures? I haven’t done that since brginning of third year and even then only a few times. What other skills/procures will I be expected to know how to do on day 1 unassisted? Thanks for any help!

The only thing people will expect you to be able to do unassisted on day 1 as an intern is be able to take a reasonable H&P and present it. Any sort of procedure, placing orders, writing notes, coming up with treatment plans, you will be assisted with. A lot of interns may not even be familiar with the EMR at their hospital yet and need help writing notes and putting orders in for the first few days/weeks. Upper levels and attendings will like to see effort in trying to come up with a plan on your own before running it by the team, but nobody will expect it to be perfect and you are definitely DISCOURAGED from trying to manage patients on your own early on in intern year. You'll have a lot of support and you'll be fine.
 
Or it’s because I didn’t suture a single wound in med school but did a bunch of intubations both in sim labs and on real patients.

Maybe the better example of DK is you thinking you know what my training was like.

I’ve only been in this game for a short time but in that very brief span I have never seen a medical student intubate a patient. I’ve seen plenty DL and successfully place a tube, but that is about 5% of the procedure. I think that’s why everyone is giving this statement the eye roll.
 
Please tell me the teeth knock out was a very difficult airway outside of the OR.
No, it was not. And it was a senior anesthesiology resident. Patient woke up, and was like, whoa, my front teeth are gone. He was like, well, that's OK, they were loose and they were probably gonna have to come out anyway, you just saved me a trip to the dentist, lol (actually we got him a consult with oral surgery since he was inpt and it was our fault they were gone... like to make sure there wasn't a retained root or anything.... not like this was a planned extraction or he was awake when they came out). There was nothing unusual or difficult about the procedure, the intubation, or his oral cavity except that his dentition wasn't the best. We were just really lucky he was such a good sport about it.

So it's tempting to write this off because of the bad teeth. Except that even if teeth are loose, you shouldn't be knocking them out anyway. Bad rookie mistake to crank back on the teeth using them as a lever for the blade. Or maybe he just knocked them with it. It's possible that they were lost putting in the tube or taking it out, less likely, but still. Still bad form that the anesthesia resident didn't note they were loose, and didn't realize that the patient lost some teeth at any point in all this.

Even worse, we couldn't find them. Absolutely no clue where they went.
 
No, it was not. And it was a senior anesthesiology resident. Patient woke up, and was like, whoa, my front teeth are gone. He was like, well, that's OK, they were loose and they were probably gonna have to come out anyway, you just saved me a trip to the dentist, lol (actually we got him a consult with oral surgery since he was inpt and it was our fault they were gone... like to make sure there wasn't a retained root or anything.... not like this was a planned extraction or he was awake when they came out). There was nothing unusual or difficult about the procedure, the intubation, or his oral cavity except that his dentition wasn't the best. We were just really lucky he was such a good sport about it.

So it's tempting to write this off because of the bad teeth. Except that even if teeth are loose, you shouldn't be knocking them out anyway. Bad rookie mistake to crank back on the teeth using them as a lever for the blade. Or maybe he just knocked them with it. It's possible that they were lost putting in the tube or taking it out, less likely, but still. Still bad form that the anesthesia resident didn't note they were loose, and didn't realize that the patient lost some teeth at any point in all this.

Even worse, we couldn't find them. Absolutely no clue where they went.
Interesting. Makes me wonder why a bunch of my first 20 intubations were with patients with loose teeth and the residents didn't mind at all that I was doing it? I always figured knocking teeth out isn't super easy to do with a Mac/Miller and difficult with a glidescope. Meaning you actually have to get a good strong lift and then proceed to rock back to actually risk teeth damage.
 
No, it was not. And it was a senior anesthesiology resident. Patient woke up, and was like, whoa, my front teeth are gone. He was like, well, that's OK, they were loose and they were probably gonna have to come out anyway, you just saved me a trip to the dentist, lol (actually we got him a consult with oral surgery since he was inpt and it was our fault they were gone... like to make sure there wasn't a retained root or anything.... not like this was a planned extraction or he was awake when they came out). There was nothing unusual or difficult about the procedure, the intubation, or his oral cavity except that his dentition wasn't the best. We were just really lucky he was such a good sport about it.

So it's tempting to write this off because of the bad teeth. Except that even if teeth are loose, you shouldn't be knocking them out anyway. Bad rookie mistake to crank back on the teeth using them as a lever for the blade. Or maybe he just knocked them with it. It's possible that they were lost putting in the tube or taking it out, less likely, but still. Still bad form that the anesthesia resident didn't note they were loose, and didn't realize that the patient lost some teeth at any point in all this.

Even worse, we couldn't find them. Absolutely no clue where they went.

Ok favorite teeth knocking out story:

Neurosurg case, shunt placement. Young dude with nearly all gold front maxillary teeth. SRNA went to intubate and just with her scissoring she knocks out a tooth. She’s mortified and the attending comes over and notes the others are loose too. They decide to pull them so they don’t become airway foreign bodies and put them in a cup to return to the patient.

Intern me goes to post op check this guy anticipating a truly ticked off patient. I walk in and he smiles the same good toothed grin he had pre op. I sheepishly ask if his teeth are ok and he says “yeah man they fall out all the time so I just stick them back in!”

Can’t make this stuff up!
 
No, it was not. And it was a senior anesthesiology resident. Patient woke up, and was like, whoa, my front teeth are gone. He was like, well, that's OK, they were loose and they were probably gonna have to come out anyway, you just saved me a trip to the dentist, lol (actually we got him a consult with oral surgery since he was inpt and it was our fault they were gone... like to make sure there wasn't a retained root or anything.... not like this was a planned extraction or he was awake when they came out). There was nothing unusual or difficult about the procedure, the intubation, or his oral cavity except that his dentition wasn't the best. We were just really lucky he was such a good sport about it.

So it's tempting to write this off because of the bad teeth. Except that even if teeth are loose, you shouldn't be knocking them out anyway. Bad rookie mistake to crank back on the teeth using them as a lever for the blade. Or maybe he just knocked them with it. It's possible that they were lost putting in the tube or taking it out, less likely, but still. Still bad form that the anesthesia resident didn't note they were loose, and didn't realize that the patient lost some teeth at any point in all this.

Even worse, we couldn't find them. Absolutely no clue where they went.


Did they get a CXR?
 
Did they get a CXR?
I can't recall. I mean, there are other cases where someone loses something in their mouth, can't find it, and don't have any overt symptoms of a retained foreign body in the lungs, and an xray isn't obtained. I would expect that if the teeth went in the lung rather than swallowed they would either cough them up or develop some symptoms like cough, fever, sputum, etc. Maybe that was the point of getting the OMS consult? To let them decide what to do? I only remember the patient getting some dental while he was with us (a somewhat happy ending to the tale).

I woke up and had a metal wire from my braces missing as a teen, and never found it.... no x ray.

I imagine it would have been reasonable for this patient, but maybe not necessary?
 
I feel like this is somewhat program specific: at my community IM program we essentially never suture (except to secure central lines, and those sutures aren’t exactly art) but we intubate all the time. @Crayola227 has given me something to think about in terms of the risks we don’t always consider, though.
 
I can't recall. I mean, there are other cases where someone loses something in their mouth, can't find it, and don't have any overt symptoms of a retained foreign body in the lungs, and an xray isn't obtained. I would expect that if the teeth went in the lung rather than swallowed they would either cough them up or develop some symptoms like cough, fever, sputum, etc. Maybe that was the point of getting the OMS consult? To let them decide what to do? I only remember the patient getting some dental while he was with us (a somewhat happy ending to the tale).

I woke up and had a metal wire from my braces missing as a teen, and never found it.... no x ray.

I imagine it would have been reasonable for this patient, but maybe not necessary?


No. It is standard of care to get a CXR if a tooth goes missing during intubation. If it’s in the tracheobronchial tree, it needs to be retrieved asap before it causes a pneumonia or migrates distally.






 
I feel like this is somewhat program specific: at my community IM program we essentially never suture (except to secure central lines, and those sutures aren’t exactly art) but we intubate all the time. @Crayola227 has given me something to think about in terms of the risks we don’t always consider, though.
You can watch a youtube video and go suture someone. If you mess up, pull it out and go again.
You can't just go watch youtube and go intubate someone. And if you mess up, oh boy.

Those are the main differences.

Ok favorite teeth knocking out story:

Neurosurg case, shunt placement. Young dude with nearly all gold front maxillary teeth. SRNA went to intubate and just with her scissoring she knocks out a tooth. She’s mortified and the attending comes over and notes the others are loose too. They decide to pull them so they don’t become airway foreign bodies and put them in a cup to return to the patient.

Intern me goes to post op check this guy anticipating a truly ticked off patient. I walk in and he smiles the same good toothed grin he had pre op. I sheepishly ask if his teeth are ok and he says “yeah man they fall out all the time so I just stick them back in!”

Can’t make this stuff up!
Makes me wonder, is there a tiny level of tolerance if a tooth is knocked out in the ED for example? You can't intubate with VL, you go DL and a little rock back is all you need to get a better view.
 
I’ve only been in this game for a short time but in that very brief span I have never seen a medical student intubate a patient. I’ve seen plenty DL and successfully place a tube, but that is about 5% of the procedure. I think that’s why everyone is giving this statement the eye roll.
I've intubated a patient in acute respiratory distress on a single occasion, but that's it. ICU rotation. Attempted another but the attending had to take over.
 
I knocked a poor lady’s bottom teeth out intubating her as a 3rd yr resident, they were loose and rotten and I felt like **** anyway. She didn’t live to regret it or forgive it, sadly. Weird angioimmunoblastic T cell lymphoma case. Emergent intubation in ICU.
 
You can watch a youtube video and go suture someone. If you mess up, pull it out and go again.
You can't just go watch youtube and go intubate someone. And if you mess up, oh boy.

Those are the main differences.


Makes me wonder, is there a tiny level of tolerance if a tooth is knocked out in the ED for example? You can't intubate with VL, you go DL and a little rock back is all you need to get a better view.

Not sure if it’s really ever tolerated but clearly an emergent situation combined with a difficult airway can sometimes lead to chipped or avulsed teeth. Its definitely different than when someone goes in for a totally elective procedure. When someone arrives in extremis then you have to do whatever is necessary to save their life and if that means knocking out a tooth then so be it.

It’s a known risk of direct laryngoscopy and is usually printed on every consent and should be a routine part of preop discussion with patients. Definitely doesn’t need loose teeth either as I’ve seen people chip them regardless.
 
I've intubated a patient in acute respiratory distress on a single occasion, but that's it. ICU rotation. Attempted another but the attending had to take over.

I’ve come to look at intubation as a very complex procedure that starts long before any drugs get pushed. This is what I mean by saying I haven’t ever seen a student really intubate someone. Usually it’s someone else who has done most of the work and hands a properly sized laryngoscope and appropriate tube to the student at the last minute. The real work of the procedure is everything that came before and all the contingency plans that were made and possibly not even verbalized to the student.

Like many things it’s easy to gain a false sense of security about this, especially when all the hard parts are done behind the scenes. Any ***** can learn to DL and place a tube, but it takes a thoughtful physician to think through all the rest of it and ultimately that’s what medical students should aspire to be.
 
I’ve come to look at intubation as a very complex procedure that starts long before any drugs get pushed. This is what I mean by saying I haven’t ever seen a student really intubate someone. Usually it’s someone else who has done most of the work and hands a properly sized laryngoscope and appropriate tube to the student at the last minute. The real work of the procedure is everything that came before and all the contingency plans that were made and possibly not even verbalized to the student.

Like many things it’s easy to gain a false sense of security about this, especially when all the hard parts are done behind the scenes. Any ***** can learn to DL and place a tube, but it takes a thoughtful physician to think through all the rest of it and ultimately that’s what medical students should aspire to be.
Totally agreed. I did come up with the indication for intubation in this case before reporting to the physician as I was the first from the medicine team to see the patient in the ED. That said, I understand I’m not in any position to pull that off myself from start to finish.
 
Totally agreed. I did come up with the indication for intubation in this case before reporting to the physician as I was the first from the medicine team to see the patient in the ED. That said, I understand I’m not in any position to pull that off myself from start to finish.
Intubation isn't just a one man task either.

You have to make the decision to intubate and then (as best as you can in the time you have) make an airway assessment. Then you consider your options, and this slightly varies. DL mac or miller, glidescope, other VL options. Then what happens if you fail attempt 1-2 and when you move to an LMA or cric.
Selecting the drugs and doses is another piece of background work. It all has to fit the patient's current physiology.
 
lol well we just had that very debate in another thread in the last few months, so fairly recently.


OK, although I see now it was just one anesthesia guy who had something to say about EM. Although I know I've seen it said elsewhere, as much as it mindboggled me. The point, is that depending on what you read, you might come away with the idea that only gas should be intubating, lol. And then enter EM saying that's only true until someone's choking on their own blood with an oral cavity in bony pieces, and that they have more experience with emergent and traumatic intubations. Then in comes ENT saying they can do those better. Then the argument about emergent crichs.

A fair number of people take issue with other specialties intubating, ones that perhaps many med students might not have never even considered controversial to anyone. Mostly, to impress upon med students/new interns, that no one should take intubation for granted. Certainly not paramedics or interns of any specialty, and no matter who you are if you come off sounding cocky about intubations there will be someone somewhere ready to issue you a smackdown.

I forgot to mention before that otolaryngology often does difficult intubations, although I don't know how universally that applies to fresh grads vs some individual providers' practices.

Lol I think I was that guy you mentioned. But in my defense, I never said ED shouldn't intubate. I was responding to some cocky M4 who was ****ting on my specialty and then had the balls to imply he can handle 100% of everything that comes through the ED. It was my intention to show that no field can do everything or handle anything that walks through without a more specialized consult. I understand he's probably feeling on top of the world after matching and soon to be graduating but - bringing it back to this thread - that kind of hubris is how you get yourself in trouble as an intern. He knows just enough to get himself in trouble.
 
For the guys in Internal Medicine Residency, do you guys know if there is a maximum # of EM electives we can do? Im trying to understand what this means? If you done 1 required EM, 1 elective EM, you are not allowed to do another elective EM? Trying to do another EM for procedural experience.

Thanks
"Total required emergency medicine experience must not exceed two months in three years of training "
 
That is saying the total required. I imagine this is so that it doesn't take up too much of your training in proportion to other required rotations, and to encourage a little more breadth in your requirements.

IIRC the required rotations are pretty full up on the schedule leaving little time that is up to you. I don't know how much total elective/selective time there is. I remember thinking it isn't a whole lot. IIRC though, even that little time was quite structured as far as what you had to pick from in any given program, however, within ACGME guidelines, programs can be quite specific in terms of what they let you do, even with electives and selective time.

I imagine you could do more than 2 required EM rotations if you did some elective. However I'm not sure that option will for sure available to you.

Rather than focussing on how many EM months you can do for procedural experience, why not let your program know of your interests in gaining procedural skills and ask what might be done to facilitate that? You might be surprised that it may not be in the ER that you are able to gain procedural skills an internist needs. Do you plan to be outpt or hospitalist? Particular subspecialty like CC or cards? That makes a big difference as well.

This could make a big difference in placement for subspecialty rotations, etc.

Hope this helps.
 
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