International vs US med schools for Neurosurgery

[imposter_syndrome]

This is my question. I have the option of attending med schools internationally (Sackler/Technion/Ben Gurion) in Fall 2021. I plan to apply this coming cycle to US medical schools.
Should I go to medical school one year early and be an IMG, or should I attend a US medical school if I want to do neurosurgery. Please consider Step 1 will be P/F and Step 2 will be gone for me.

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[cranialLOOP]

Us medical school. no question about it.

 

[imposter_syndrome]

Us medical school. no question about it.

I don't mean to be a di** by asking these questions. But why do you say so?
And have you been through the process or know people who have been through the process?

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

This is my question. I have the option of attending med schools internationally (Sackler/Technion/Ben Gurion) in Fall 2021. I plan to apply this coming cycle to US medical schools.
Should I go to medical school one year early and be an IMG, or should I attend a US medical school if I want to do neurosurgery. Please consider Step 1 will be P/F and Step 2 will be gone for me.

US Medical School.

 

[imposter_syndrome]

US Medical School.

Thank you. Can you elaborate on why?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

NSG is one of the most competitive residencies. Your chances of getting a spot as an IMG are essentially zero. Your chances of getting a spot as a USMG are slightly better than zero.

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

Thank you. Can you elaborate on why?

Keep in mind all of these IMGs did several years of research generating many publications on top of excellent scores and recommendations.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

This is my question. I have the option of attending med schools internationally (Sackler/Technion/Ben Gurion) in Fall 2021. I plan to apply this coming cycle to US medical schools.
Should I go to medical school one year early and be an IMG, or should I attend a US medical school if I want to do neurosurgery. Please consider Step 1 will be P/F and Step 2 will be gone for me.

Definitely go US Med School to have a better chance at Neurosurgery.

 

[imposter_syndrome]

Keep in mind all of these IMGs did several years of research generating many publications on top of excellent scores and recommendations.

Gold. Thank you.

 

[IMG69]

Keep in mind all of these IMGs did several years of research generating many publications on top of excellent scores and recommendations.

Out of curiosity how much Cronyism do you think is going on for these IMGs to match?

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

Out of curiosity how much Cronyism do you think is going on for these IMGs to match?

Almost none, but its severe survivorship bias. Most of these individuals have survived national admissions tests to gain entry to the top medical schools in their home country. They likely were at the top of their class, some may have already completed neurosurgery residency in their home country. Then they were ambitious enough to take USMLEs, move to the US, and work in laboratories for 3-4 years with no guarantee that it will result in a neurosurgery residency slot. During that time, they secured grants, and published a ton of papers including high impact ones. They really are the cream of the crop globally.

 

[IMG69]

Interesting because I have a lot of friends from those countries (several in medicine) and they are super self selective, on literally everything. Also I know several who've applied to the match (non-NSGY) and they basically look for people of the same ethnicity when applying to hospitals and message them and things seem to go great for them.

Just an observation really, no hard facts or anything and i'm not trying to discredit their work to even reach the point where they're competitive.

 

[longhaul3]

Most of the time, an IMG matching is the opposite of cronyism. They overcome extreme odds and are held to an outrageously higher standard than US MDs.

A US MD school is the way to go for sure—but I thought that the Sackler program is technically considered a US MD school, no? At least the program they have for Americans that is somehow affiliated with NY state. I think even still you would face an uphill battle to get into neurosurgery.

But honestly I would take an MD acceptance in hand and be happy to go into radiology or something over holding out for an uncertain chance at admission in the US which still doesn't even remotely guarantee a match in neurosurgery. I love neurosurgery but it's not all there is to life (many of my colleagues would disagree, but hey).

 

[BoneWizard]

I'm a little curious what this DO student with presumably a 400-450/450-500 level 1/2, no step 1 and a sub 220 step 2 score did to match NSG though.

 

[IMG69]

Most of the time, an IMG matching is the opposite of cronyism. They overcome extreme odds and are held to an outrageously higher standard than US MDs.

A US MD school is the way to go for sure—but I thought that the Sackler program is technically considered a US MD school, no? At least the program they have for Americans that is somehow affiliated with NY state. I think even still you would face an uphill battle to get into neurosurgery.

But honestly I would take an MD acceptance in hand and be happy to go into radiology or something over holding out for an uncertain chance at admission in the US which still doesn't even remotely guarantee a match in neurosurgery. I love neurosurgery but it's not all there is to life (many of my colleagues would disagree, but hey).

I understand but everyone who's applying is a superstar (in theory at least) probably like all those US MD's who didn't make the cut. It's just funny because my SO is from one of those countries and said there's a few Neurosurgeons in their (insert ethnicity) Whatsapp group (ethnicity X in America) and she said she could try hook me up .

OP if you REALLY want Neurosurgery you have 2 options, go US MD route and apply to the USA or do something similar to myself (bare in mind i'm not really American, I just hold a passport so a US med school was never an option for me anyway) go to an overseas school somewhere, pick a European country and learn the language in your final years then go train in NSGY there.

 

[giguerex35]

Keep in mind all of these IMGs did several years of research generating many publications on top of excellent scores and recommendations.

what is the source of those numbers, i didnt see 8 DO matches unless i looked at the wrong years data

 

[BoneWizard]

what is the source of those numbers, i didnt see 8 DO matches unless i looked at the wrong years data

8 total matched. 6 DO seniors and 2 previous grads.

 

[giguerex35]

8 total matched. 6 DO seniors and 2 previous grads.

View attachment 335096

appreciate it also just for clarification, a DO grad would be someone who previously graduated without a match (whether they didnt match or didnt apply) and did a research year or something along those lines

 

[longhaul3]

I'm a little curious what this DO student with presumably a 400-450/450-500 level 1/2, no step 1 and a sub 220 step 2 score did to match NSG though.

View attachment 335085

View attachment 335086

View attachment 335087

I don't know anything about DO schools but based on those charts isn't it possible that the student with the low level 1 score is the same one with the high step 1 score and 5+ abstracts?

Either way the answer to your question is probably research. It's getting more and more important by the day in neurosurgery, which sucks.

 

[Cognovi]

A US MD school is the way to go for sure—but I thought that the Sackler program is technically considered a US MD school, no? At least the program they have for Americans that is somehow affiliated with NY state.

Sackler is accredited by Israel and not the LCME and thus considered a foreign medical school. It is also located outside the US. Students have to be ECFMG certified to enter the Match.

 

[BoneWizard]

Sackler is accredited by Israel and not the LCME and thus considered a foreign medical school. It is also located outside the US. Students have to be ECFMG certified to enter the Match.

I'd consider Sackler somewhere between low tier MD and state-DO schools. Sackler is charted by the state of NY and in NY for all intents and purposes it is treated like any SUNY MD school which is backed by their match list every year. Very strongly considered attending over my DO program but didn't want to go to Israel.

 

[sssoffice.us]

Keep in mind all of these IMGs did several years of research generating many publications on top of excellent scores and recommendations.

How's it possible being Non US IMG doing many years of research and after that matching into program. They must be having a green card or no visa dependency. It won't ve possible on J1 at all.