Internship experience for Neuropsychology Board Certification

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phdonewithit

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I am currently going through the round II internship process. My long term goal is to seek board certification in neuro and unfortunately there are very few internships that can guarantee 50% neuro activities. If I were only able to do 40% or less neuro would this be a problem for later certification? While I know the Houston conference says the training is not required during internship, it kind of feels like it's an unwritten rule that it is expected. Would it be better for my long term career goals to forgo matching and trying again next year to get a neuro track?

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I am currently going through the round II internship process. My long term goal is to seek board certification in neuro and unfortunately there are very few internships that can guarantee 50% neuro activities. If I were only able to do 40% or less neuro would this be a problem for later certification? While I know the Houston conference says the training is not required during internship, it kind of feels like it's an unwritten rule that it is expected. Would it be better for my long term career goals to forgo matching and trying again next year to get a neuro track?
I have heard competing answers about this issue. I'll be interested to see what this community has to say.
 
I am currently going through the round II internship process. My long term goal is to seek board certification in neuro and unfortunately there are very few internships that can guarantee 50% neuro activities. If I were only able to do 40% or less neuro would this be a problem for later certification? While I know the Houston conference says the training is not required during internship, it kind of feels like it's an unwritten rule that it is expected. Would it be better for my long term career goals to forgo matching and trying again next year to get a neuro track?

This is not an HCG requirement for internship, and not an issue if the rest of teh experience looks good on application.
 
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So as long as I get enough assessment to land a neuro post doc that meet guidelines I should be okay? I am a bit concerned about being an attractive candidate for a post doc without an Internship rotation. I've completed 3 neuro practica. Will that help or is it not seen as high quality as training gained during an internship year?
 
So as long as I get enough assessment to land a neuro post doc that meet guidelines I should be okay? I am a bit concerned about being an attractive candidate for a post doc without an Internship rotation. I've completed 3 neuro practica. Will that help or is it not seen as high quality as training gained during an internship year?

doing zero neuro rotations om internship would not be great in most circumstances. However, someone with good neuro experience prior to internship would be fine in most settings with 1 rotation in neuro in internship, granted the rest of their application is good.
 
doing zero neuro rotations om internship would not be great in most circumstances. However, someone with good neuro experience prior to internship would be fine in most settings with 1 rotation in neuro in internship, granted the rest of their application is good.
I just hope that the flood of people trying to 'become neuropsychologists' do it the right way and get trained properly, specialize in neuropsych, get board certified, actually learn the literature on mTBI, understand statistics, etc.

The last thing the field needs is more 'pseudoneuropsychologists.'
 
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I just hope that the flood of people trying to 'become neuropsychologists' do it the right way and get trained properly, specialize in neuropsych, get board certified, actually learn the literature on mTBI, understand statistics, etc.

The last thing the field needs is more 'pseudoneuropsychologists.'

Clinically, I agree with you. Forensically/financially, these incompetently trained pseudoclinicians are good for business.
 
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I just hope that the flood of people trying to 'become neuropsychologists' do it the right way and get trained properly, specialize in neuropsych, get board certified, actually learn the literature on mTBI, understand statistics, etc.

The last thing the field needs is more 'pseudoneuropsychologists.'
The funny part is that if the goal is money, there are better ways than being a third rate neuropsych. Plenty of undeserved areas of psychology that they could be cornering the market on.
 
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The funny part is that if the goal is money, there are better ways than being a third rate neuropsych. Plenty of undeserved areas of psychology that they could be cornering the market on.
I hear EMDR pays well!
 
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Clinically, I agree with you. Forensically/financially, these incompetently trained pseudoclinicians are good for business.
This! It's easy money to destroy a pseudo-neuropsychologist's argument that client had a mTBI when they don't know what that means and simply accept client's self-report. Love. It.
 
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This! It's easy money to destroy a pseudo-neuropsychologist's argument that client had a mTBI when they don't know what that means and simply accept client's self-report. Love. It.
This is one of the most frustrating things as a clinician in the VA system. With some (many?) pseudoneuropsychologists in the system, I have learned that it is actually likely iatrogenic/counterproductive to refer to neuropsych if they're going to be handling the case. I've seen such jaw-dropping errors as interpreting even slight variations from the mean (like, equivalent to 1/8th of a standard deviation) in the 'impaired' direction on particular subtests as 'evidence' of deficits relative to 'pre-morbid' (presumed) status. Mind you, there is absolutely no data point they can point to in order to reference any measured 'pre-morbid' status. The implicit (incredibly flawed) argument appears to be that we are just to assume that their scores/abilities prior to the 'injury' (concussion, stroke, whatever) were somehow magically precisely the 'mean' score in the reference population (or higher?). There is no apparent consideration of measurement error. There is no apparent consideration for natural subtest scatter (or that not everyone is going to be at the 50th percentile or above on every measured capacity). Reading the reports, it's as if the writer is actively trying to give a tepid diagnosis of some form of concrete 'brain injury' or neuropathology ('mild' forms) no matter what to appease the veteran and to 'answer' the consult. So the veteran comes back to psychotherapy with 'proof' that they are 'brain injured' and can't complete self-monitoring forms or 'can't remember' to do homework. All the 'recommendations' are the same and equally worthless. 'Mr. X could benefit from evidence-based psychotherapy protocols with the proper modifications.' Yeah...the guy is claiming (on some days) that he can't read/understand the printed word. But on half the days he is able to read, other half never able to read/comprehend. He has a gross 'tremor' that he produces on demand (when asked to work with the therapist to complete forms in session) but was absent when he was filling out the PCL-5 earlier in the session (with perfect circles around every '4'). Tremor and inability to read/write also conspicuously absent when he was filling out his 'travel pay' paperwork (which is in something like 4-point font). He apparently completed (successfully) a complete course of group CPT (and all the forms involved in that) just last year (which 'didn't help'). He claims not to know what an ABC sheet is or how to fill it out. I could go on, but you get the idea. Of course, the pseudoneuropsychologist didn't include any stand-alone or embedded tests of symptom or performance validity (or if any of the tests they gave included them, they were not scored and interpreted)--as I understand it, this is supposed to be considered an essential component of neuropsych evals in particular contexts.

If a patient complaining of 'a TBI' is referred to a pseudoneuropsychologist I get something like the above. However, if they are referred to our actual board-certified legit neuropsychologist, they do a good job...they do a good history to establish that this veteran with severe clinical depression, incapacitating PTSD symptoms, self-reporting only 2 hours/night of sleep, uncontrolled sleep apnea, recently divorced and homeless veteran who is drinking a gallon of whiskey per day....might need to have those factors assessed and treated prior to concluding that the brief possible alteration in consciousness he self-reports from 12 years ago from bumping his head on a door is evidence of some form of 'brain injury.'

The difference is night and day.
 
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This is one of the most frustrating things as a clinician in the VA system. With some (many?) pseudoneuropsychologists in the system, I have learned that it is actually likely iatrogenic/counterproductive to refer to neuropsych if they're going to be handling the case. I've seen such jaw-dropping errors as interpreting even slight variations from the mean (like, equivalent to 1/8th of a standard deviation) in the 'impaired' direction on particular subtests as 'evidence' of deficits relative to 'pre-morbid' (presumed) status. Mind you, there is absolutely no data point they can point to in order to reference any measured 'pre-morbid' status. The implicit (incredibly flawed) argument appears to be that we are just to assume that their scores/abilities prior to the 'injury' (concussion, stroke, whatever) were somehow magically precisely the 'mean' score in the reference population (or higher?). There is no apparent consideration of measurement error. There is no apparent consideration for natural subtest scatter (or that not everyone is going to be at the 50th percentile or above on every measured capacity). Reading the reports, it's as if the writer is actively trying to give a tepid diagnosis of some form of concrete 'brain injury' or neuropathology ('mild' forms) no matter what to appease the veteran and to 'answer' the consult. So the veteran comes back to psychotherapy with 'proof' that they are 'brain injured' and can't complete self-monitoring forms or 'can't remember' to do homework. All the 'recommendations' are the same and equally worthless. 'Mr. X could benefit from evidence-based psychotherapy protocols with the proper modifications.' Yeah...the guy is claiming (on some days) that he can't read/understand the printed word. But on half the days he is able to read, other half never able to read/comprehend. He has a gross 'tremor' that he produces on demand (when asked to work with the therapist to complete forms in session) but was absent when he was filling out the PCL-5 earlier in the session (with perfect circles around every '4'). Tremor and inability to read/write also conspicuously absent when he was filling out his 'travel pay' paperwork (which is in something like 4-point font). He apparently completed (successfully) a complete course of group CPT (and all the forms involved in that) just last year (which 'didn't help'). He claims not to know what an ABC sheet is or how to fill it out. I could go on, but you get the idea. Of course, the pseudoneuropsychologist didn't include any stand-alone or embedded tests of symptom or performance validity (or if any of the tests they gave included them, they were not scored and interpreted)--as I understand it, this is supposed to be considered an essential component of neuropsych evals in particular contexts.

If a patient complaining of 'a TBI' is referred to a pseudoneuropsychologist I get something like the above. However, if they are referred to our actual board-certified legit neuropsychologist, they do a good job...they do a good history to establish that this veteran with severe clinical depression, incapacitating PTSD symptoms, self-reporting only 2 hours/night of sleep, uncontrolled sleep apnea, recently divorced and homeless veteran who is drinking a gallon of whiskey per day....might need to have those factors assessed and treated prior to concluding that the brief possible alteration in consciousness he self-reports from 12 years ago from bumping his head on a door is evidence of some form of 'brain injury.'

The difference is night and day.

This is the issue we've been having at my current job. I am on the path to board certification (passed written exam, actively working on other steps) but still at least followed the steps that I thought were non-negotiable in order to become a true neuropsychologist (several pre-doc practica in neuropsych, advanced coursework in neuropsych/neuroanatomy/etc, APA internship in neuropsych, two year postdoctoral fellowship in neuropsych) and they hired a person who is the same "level" as me, who has no training in neuropsychology at all. AT ALL. The administration hired this person knowing they didn't have any training or experience and doesn't see a problem with it or how this can be harming patients despite several frank conversations with them and presenting them with the APA ethics code with the relevant areas highlighted. Their response: "well, not being seen is also harming patients, so..." For context, this person came to me asking how to interpret something on the WAIS and was not sure how to score the RBANS, yet the administration is allowing them to call themselves a neuropsychologist. Absolutely bonkers.

This was slightly tangential from initial question that was asked, but I think is relevant to some of the issues we're experiencing in the field. I think these pseudoneuropsychologists do us all a disservice. I am someone that likes to follow rules and expectations, so I followed the Houston guidelines strictly and would encourage trainees to stick to those as close as possible. Realistically if you can only get 40% neuropsych on internship, I wouldn't expect that to be a deal breaker as long as you do the formal 2 year postdoctoral fellowship and had some pre-doctoral training and education in neuropsych as well. I'm still very early career, so this is just my two cents.
 
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I am curious to see the outcome of the Minnesota Conference (Mandate – Minnesota Conference), which is basically HCG 2.0. I agree with @neurotic_cow that it's absolutely unethical to have people practicing as "neuropsychologists" who have little-to-no training as such. Even in my short time in training up to internship I have seen numerous patients be harmed by junk diagnoses from providers who are practicing outside of their scope.

I doubt we will ever be in a place where you have to get a "neuropsych-focused" internship given that internship is intentionally supposed to be a generalist year (with some specialization if desired). That said, I would advise OP to examine carefully if there is a reason they did not match in round 1 given that a lot of the same internship sites also offer post-docs. It might have just been a crappy luck of the draw with the ranking model, but you will definitely want to pursue a good two-year neuropsych post-doc if you want to *ethically* be practicing as a neuropsychologist in the future. Maybe the three pracs + some experience on internship will be enough, though I feel like personally most of my questions on post-doc interviews this year were about my internship experiences, not my practica.
 
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I just hope that the flood of people trying to 'become neuropsychologists' do it the right way and get trained properly, specialize in neuropsych, get board certified, actually learn the literature on mTBI, understand statistics, etc.

The last thing the field needs is more 'pseudoneuropsychologists.'

Totally. The proliferation of "forensic neuropsychologists" has been unbelievable. I've also noticed that many many of them love to boast about their Fielding neuro certificates.
 
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This is the issue we've been having at my current job. I am on the path to board certification (passed written exam, actively working on other steps) but still at least followed the steps that I thought were non-negotiable in order to become a true neuropsychologist (several pre-doc practica in neuropsych, advanced coursework in neuropsych/neuroanatomy/etc, APA internship in neuropsych, two year postdoctoral fellowship in neuropsych) and they hired a person who is the same "level" as me, who has no training in neuropsychology at all. AT ALL. The administration hired this person knowing they didn't have any training or experience and doesn't see a problem with it or how this can be harming patients despite several frank conversations with them and presenting them with the APA ethics code with the relevant areas highlighted. Their response: "well, not being seen is also harming patients, so..." For context, this person came to me asking how to interpret something on the WAIS and was not sure how to score the RBANS, yet the administration is allowing them to call themselves a neuropsychologist. Absolutely bonkers.

This was slightly tangential from initial question that was asked, but I think is relevant to some of the issues we're experiencing in the field. I think these pseudoneuropsychologists do us all a disservice. I am someone that likes to follow rules and expectations, so I followed the Houston guidelines strictly and would encourage trainees to stick to those as close as possible. Realistically if you can only get 40% neuropsych on internship, I wouldn't expect that to be a deal breaker as long as you do the formal 2 year postdoctoral fellowship and had some pre-doctoral training and education in neuropsych as well. I'm still very early career, so this is just my two cents.
I mean...some of it is stuff you learn as a first year grad student---measurement error, 'significant' deviations from the mean, hypothesis testing, base rates, subtest scatter...

Also, for the love of Moloch...could they PLEASE stop recommending 'brain puzzles' and crossword puzzles to 'treat' brain injury already?
 
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I am currently going through the round II internship process. My long term goal is to seek board certification in neuro and unfortunately there are very few internships that can guarantee 50% neuro activities. If I were only able to do 40% or less neuro would this be a problem for later certification? While I know the Houston conference says the training is not required during internship, it kind of feels like it's an unwritten rule that it is expected. Would it be better for my long term career goals to forgo matching and trying again next year to get a neuro track?
I'm in the same boat, going through Phase II right now and really want to have neuropsych as a major component of internship. It seems like the neuropsych sites are especially competitive.
 
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