Internship/post-doc/licensure Q's

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nobleheart

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I have a few possibly "dumb" questions:

Do any states require an APA accredited predoctoral internship?
Same for post-doctoral?

My state licensure board requires "a doctoral degree from an accredited program", and 4000 hours of supervised "practice"...."2000 hours must be post-doctoral."

This feels very vague to me. I am sure you have to plead your case when applying for licensure, regardless.

I have read information about many Psy.D. programs and it appears as if some do not require an APA internship for their degree. Is this in the grey area?

Thanks for any info,
T

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I have a few possibly "dumb" questions:

Do any states require an APA accredited predoctoral internship?
Same for post-doctoral?

My state licensure board requires "a doctoral degree from an APA accredited program", and 4000 hours of supervised "practice"...."2000 hours must be post-doctoral."

This feels very vague to me. I am sure you have to plead your case when applying for licensure, regardless.

I have read information about many Psy.D. programs and it appears as if some do not require an APA internship for their degree. Is this in the grey area?

Thanks for any info,
T

Actually, your state's requirements are pretty much the standard. The 4000 hours basically translate into 1 year of predoctoral internship plus 1 supervised postdoctoral year of full-time clinical work OR 2 supervised postdoctoral years of a clinical/research combo. Clinical practicum hours accrued as a graduate student are not applied for licensure.

As for the APA requirements...

Basically, your PhD or PsyD needs to come from an APA-accredited program.

For internship, several (but not all) states will specify that they require an APA-accredited internship OR its equivalent. If you go to a non-accredited internship, then the onus is on you to demonstrate its equivalence to the licensing board (which is a huge pain, from what I understand). I also believe that, if you want to work at a VA hospital, you must complete an APA-accredited internship.

In a nutshell, you will make life MUCH easier for yourself, if you make sure that you complete APA-accredited programs. The accreditation process may be a joke, but it's the reality of the field right now.
 
Does anyone know about what percent of post-docs are combined vs. research only?

I'd need licensure for many academic jobs, but I got the impression that the bulk of post-docs were research only - I'm just not sure if that is actually the norm, or if that is just what I have been exposed to.
 
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Check the language again. The only state I'm aware of the REQUIRES graduation from an APA-approved program is Florida and they would not require an APA-approved internship. Unless your state has a bifurcated license there should be some requirements on what has to happen during your training years (i.e. direct services and supervision) if it does not, then there may be a second stage to provide MH services to the public.
 
I'd need licensure for many academic jobs, but I got the impression that the bulk of post-docs were research only - I'm just not sure if that is actually the norm, or if that is just what I have been exposed to.

I know some people do informal post-docs, under the supervision of licensed clinicians in private practice. Proving supervision (as mentioned above) may or may not be a problem. I'm going to try and do a formalized post-doc to avoid all of this, but who knows. :laugh:

I don't know much about this process, so I'll defer to others more in the know.

-t
 
Any idea if informal = unpaid?Either way I'd probably want a formal one, since I doubt there's many opportunities to do research when in private practice, and that would probably be my primary purpose in doing a post-doc:)
 
Any idea if informal = unpaid?Either way I'd probably want a formal one, since I doubt there's many opportunities to do research when in private practice, and that would probably be my primary purpose in doing a post-doc:)

I do not know much about post-docs, but I cannot imagine why anybody would take an unpaid post-doc.
 
The "one stop shop" for information is the Association of State and Provincial Psychology Boards (ASPPB, www.asppb.org). They publish a directory which summarizes each jurisdiction's requirements (and provides links to the pertinent web sites).

Also Ken Pope's web page (http://kspope.com/licensing/index.php) has links to the licensings boards.

When I checked during graduate school (2000 - 06) only 10 states required graduation from an APA accredited program for licensure.
No state required an APA-accredited internship.

That said, most states accept graduation from an APA accredited program as de facto evidence of meeting their state standards, so it is much easier to navigate the process. But easier does not mean necessary!

[However, it is becoming more common for post-doc fellowships and some employers to require graduation from an APA program and completion of an APA internship.]

With rare exception, informal post-docs are generally acceptable. In the final year of supervised practice, most boards are more interested in insuring you had someone "looking over your shoulder" for that year, instead of the more structured experience of internship. However, the requirements for what constitutes "supervised practice" can vary wildly from state to state. In general, though, the biggest variable usually is number of hours.

Informal post doc does not automatically mean unpaid. Usually it means accepting a job. Given that formal post-docs pay less (they are providing continued education and ususally expanded supervision), many post-docs prefer to strike out professionally. Of course, there is the conundrum: 1) there just aren't that many formal post-doc fellowships; and 2) since you are not licensed, you are not reimbursable by insurance which means for most jobs, you are a liability not an asset. So most jobs are with state agencies which, ironically, can ignore state licensing requirements.

When people say "informal" post-doc what they usually mean is that they have made arrangements to work under the supervision of a private practitioner. For most jurisdictions, this is perfectly acceptable. However -- many jurisdictions are quite clear that the supervisor cannot be paid for providing supervision of a post-doc. And, as mentioned before, as a post-doc you have no license and cannot bill insurance. So the practice has to either have a solid clientele of self-pay patients or you have to come with a Master's level practitioner license.

Before you graduate, you must take the time to review the requirements of any state you may potentially seek to be licensed. Some of the educational requirements must be included ON your doctoral transcripts. The circumstances aren't quite as draconian for post-docs. But still, before you embark on your post-doc year, you should confirm with the licensing board of any state you may ever want to license in, if your post-doc will be sufficient.

[Oh and people can and do take unpaid post-docs -- and internships too. The cold reality is that every license-eligible graduate program requires an internship before you can graduate. And 49 states require a post-doc before you can license. [Sole exception: Washington] Given the lopsided supply/demand between applicants and internships -- which is even more pronounced when you get to formal post-docs -- some students feel they have no choice but to accept an unpaid internship/post-doc if they ever want to end their pre-license years.]
 
These may be dumb questions (I haven't even started my doctoral program yet but am curious about what lies...far ahead) buuut...
What exactly is a post-doc position (is it basically just another year of internship-type work?) And, is a "post-doc" itself required or is it usually just the actual hours required, most commonly obtained by a post-doc?
How do people go about getting post-doc positions? Is it like applying for internships, or more like an actual job search?
 
1) What exactly is a post-doc position (is it basically just another year of internship-type work?)
2) And, is a "post-doc" itself required or is it usually just the actual hours required, most commonly obtained by a post-doc?
3) How do people go about getting post-doc positions? Is it like applying for internships, or more like an actual job search?

1) As mentioned above, all states (but Washington) require two years of supervised practice to be eligible for a license -- one pre-doc (internship) and one after you graduate (post-doc). The nature of the work depends upon whether you seek placement in a fellowship/residency ("formal post-doc") or seek employment.

2) No jurisdiction to my knowledge requires a formal fellowship, so it is just a matter of accruing a second year of supervised practice.

3) If you want a fellowship, then the process is much like getting an internship (long applications, very large and competitive applicant pool, specific deadlines).

If you don't want fellowship, it is the same as getting a job. (Unless you are the adventurous sort who wants to try setting up an arrangement with a private practitioner (see my post above more more details).
 
Also, to address Ollie123's question, you can do a "research only" postdoc. But if you are not doing any clinical work, then you are not obtaining hours for licensure. I do know some clinical psychology PhDs who are not interested in becoming licensed, so a completely research postdoc might be appropriate.

On the other hand, in the field of clinical psych, I think it would be difficult to do research that doesn't have *some* element of clinical exposure (e.g., through assessment, experimental intervention, etc.). In fact, 2-year "research postdocs" (what I referred to as "combined" for descriptive purposes) still have a clinical element, so that you can apply for licensure when you are finished. It takes 2 years (instead of 1) because presumably your research responsibilities will keep you from obtaining all of those clinical hours in 1 year.

At the end of the day, the licensure game is tricky but not insurmountable. Each state has its own set of idiosyncracies, and the asppb website is a great place to start. Even though it's possible to become licensed without the "APA-accredited" distinction, I still believe that you will be creating unnecessary red tape for yourself if you do not have these affiliations. But each person has to pick his/her own battles, I suppose. My experience so far has been that, with the APA-accreditation of my doctoral and internship programs, I have very quickly gotten the rubber stamps that I've needed to move along on the road toward licensure.

Good luck!
 
psychwhy,
Can you post a reference to your claim that 10 states require APA-accredited schools and not the equivolent. I have never seen this in any other state but Florida and theirs did not go into effect until 2001-2. I knew that Georgia had considered it and Mississippi had some other quirks, but your number is quite high. Thanks
 
I do not know much about post-docs, but I cannot imagine why anybody would take an unpaid post-doc.

My understanding is that people who take unpaid postdocs only do so as a last resort so they can get licensed. Part of the resounding problem in psych is that the supply/demand ratio is not balanced. There aren't enough APA internships or paid (even formal) postdocs to go around.
 
As stated, you need 2 years of full time (or it's equivalent done part time) to get licensed (typically).

Internship is done in the last year of grad school. APA accredits many programs, and they are applied to through a match process... see http://appic.org/ and http://www.natmatch.com/psychint/index.htm
The match rates are, however, getting worse (2007 was ~75%). Therefore, many (hundreds) students don't get matched each year.

The alternative is to do a non-APA accredited internship, which may/may not be the choice for you (someone already discussed this above).

Postdocs are the other year. APPIC also lists these programs, but since APPIC isn't an accreditation program, it's not really a big deal. Many postdocs are announced in places like the Monitor, APAGS, and on the APA postdoc listserv (as well as through other psych organizations - there are lots). I don't know anyone who really needs an APA accredited postdoc for licensing or anything else, and there aren't that many anyway.

Some of these programs are formal = structured training programs w/ supervision; others less formal = not such an emphasis on training, but with the required supervision. The less formal postdocs can be much more like regular jobs, but with a supervision component.

BUT, neuropsych postdocs are another story - postdoc residencies are 2 years, and they also have a match with APPCN accredited sites (http://www.appcn.org/ & http://www.natmatch.com/appcnmat/index.htm). However, they have even worse match rates (~60%). There are more also formal non-accredited postdocs with training components, and again, not so formal (again, non-accredited) postdocs. This being said though, the trend in neuropsych is that you need a 2 year postdoc in order to be eligible to get board certified (another issue), ...

All in all, everyone approaches the process differently, depending on their career goals. You will learn more of this as time goes on, so don't worry too much about these hurdles... you'll have plenty of time to deal with this when the time comes!

Oh, and here is a site about each states licensing requirements:
http://www.asppb.org/mobility/credentialsBank/what.aspx

*can you tell that I've been thinking about all this?*
 
Neuro-Dr: Can you post a reference to your claim that 10 states require APA-accredited schools and not the equivolent. I have never seen this in any other state but Florida and theirs did not go into effect until 2001-2. I knew that Georgia had considered it and Mississippi had some other quirks, but your number is quite high. Thanks

It came from my own research of the ASPPB directory. Enrolled in a non-APA accredited program, it was an issue of significant concern for my classmates and I.

When I looked (and this was a few years ago): DC, Florida, Maryland, Missouri, New Mexico, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, and Wyoming required an APA accredited doctorate.

Massachusetts and Manitoba required an ASPPB registered program.

The other 41 jurisdictions either required only a regionally accredited degree or made provisions for programs which are "equivalent" to an APA accredited one. A problem in verifying this information is that the state laws which govern licensing psychologists may seem relatively vague, but then there are a separate set of regulations which apply to psychological practice that establish the specific requirements.

Unfortunately, the ASPPB online directory is currently being reviewed/revised and unavailable.

As always, one should check directly with the licensing authority in any jurisdiction one hopes to be licensed.
 
OK, now I see the issue (I think). Oklahoma and Utah do not have quite the hard a fst rule that Florida does. Mnay of these states probably are using the 8 year clause, which states a program must be APA-accredited or get accreditation within 8 years of opening. See Oklahoma for specifics. Florida is all or nothing, but oddly enough does not actually require APA, but rather a body recognized through DOE. Any one reading this should go to the state DPR and check the fine print. I still think Florida is tha only absolute. Thanks psychwhy.
 
Neuro-Dr: OK, now I see the issue (I think). Oklahoma and Utah do not have quite the hard a fst rule that Florida does. Mnay of these states probably are using the 8 year clause, which states a program must be APA-accredited or get accreditation within 8 years of opening. See Oklahoma for specifics. Florida is all or nothing, but oddly enough does not actually require APA, but rather a body recognized through DOE. Any one reading this should go to the state DPR and check the fine print. I still think Florida is tha only absolute. Thanks psychwhy.

That's interesting because -- as I was residing in NYS during graduate school I studied their requirements pretty extensively -- I thought it peculiar that NYS had a "state-authorized" program rule, as they seemed to be the only jurisdiction with that.

Adding to the oddity, I spoke to a member of the FL licensing board at a convention and was told they had postponed the APA-accredition requirement to allow for Florida state universities to decide about pursuing APA accreditation. There was no mention of "state DOE authorization".

Bottom line -- letting every state create its own standards is lunacy!
 
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