Internship/Residency Hours

[amr786]

Hello!

I am new here, so I'm not sure if this is the right sub-forum to post under. Anyway, I was wondering if someone could tell me how many hours a week do you work as an intern/resident during the following specialties:

1. Family Practice
2. General Pediatrics
3. Pathology

Also, can you tell me how long the internship/residency last for in each of these? Thanks a lot!

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[Winged Scapula]

Hello!

I am new here, so I'm not sure if this is the right sub-forum to post under. Anyway, I was wondering if someone could tell me how many hours a week do you work as an intern/resident during the following specialties:

1. Family Practice
2. General Pediatrics
3. Pathology

There is not a significant difference in work hours between these fields during residency to make a difference. Work hours will depend on your program, how much in house call you take, census, and program environment. All probably work less than 80 hrs; but as a pre-med this could change (for the better) by the time you get to residency.

Also, can you tell me how long the internship/residency last for in each of these? Thanks a lot!

Internship in the first year of residency. It is always 1 year in length,

Family Medicine and Peds are 3 years in length; Pathology 4. See here:http://www0.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcindx/0,,TR,00.html

 

[dragonfly99]

I disagree with the above post. At the hospitals where I've worked, I would say that pathology works a lot less, and takes a lot less call, than pediatrics. The peds residents, like IM, definitely pushed the 80 hours limits as interns, if not went over. For family practice I dont have any knowledge...

 

[1 Up]

What about surgeons?

 

[yaah]

I averaged about 60 hrs/week in path, sometimes more, sometimes less. Some weeks I and others go to 80 hrs or even over. Call is much more humane I suppose, 2-3 nights per month. EVery program is different though. But when I add in reading and work I do at home on things related to work my hours go up a lot - path has a lot of "outside" work to do, studying, etc.

There are many path programs where the residents have minimal responsibilities and probably don't learn enough. In these programs your hours would be much less. Pathology is a 4 year residency if you do the full Anatomic and Clinical pathology (3 years if you do only one, most people who do this are academic-oriented). I would wager that at least 75% of people do at least one fellowship in addition to the 4 years, and many do more than one.

 

[radslooking]

I averaged about 60 hrs/week in path, sometimes more, sometimes less. Some weeks I and others go to 80 hrs or even over. Call is much more humane I suppose, 2-3 nights per month. EVery program is different though. But when I add in reading and work I do at home on things related to work my hours go up a lot - path has a lot of "outside" work to do, studying, etc.

There are many path programs where the residents have minimal responsibilities and probably don't learn enough. In these programs your hours would be much less. Pathology is a 4 year residency if you do the full Anatomic and Clinical pathology (3 years if you do only one, most people who do this are academic-oriented). I would wager that at least 75% of people do at least one fellowship in addition to the 4 years, and many do more than one.

you 'suppose'? 2-3 times a month? yeah, that would be easier. q10-15 call? that's a q value not seen in medicine often. and anybody who's done a lot of reading and done a lot of call knows that one is worse than the other. path is clearly the easiest choice amongst those in terms of total hours and lifestyle impingement. but you have to like the work. if you don't then its not going to be fun hours.

 

[Winged Scapula]

What about surgeons?

Minimum 5 years residency, 7 years at some programs.

Generally 80 hours and up for training; some programs stay within work hour restrictions, some do not. Call frequency will vary from q3 to around q7 depending on rotation, program, etc.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I disagree with the above post. At the hospitals where I've worked, I would say that pathology works a lot less, and takes a lot less call, than pediatrics. The peds residents, like IM, definitely pushed the 80 hours limits as interns, if not went over. For family practice I dont have any knowledge...

And my experience has been different.

While the pathology residents did not often stay in house very late, they did have to come in for late night frozen sections, posts and often stayed in house all day both weekend days to get post mortems and other specimens run. That coupled with the reading they had to do pushed their hours close to 80, hence my comment that in some places the hours are not significantly different. I would agree that out of the 3, Peds is in house the most.

 

[yaah]

The way the work hours thing is going, there are some drawbacks to pathology call, they are relatively minor. You don't get the day off after being on call, for example, even if your pager goes off every 25 minutes (which happens) and you have to come back in at 3am (which also happens). You also don't get a weekday off or any part of a weekday unless you take it as a vacation day. While overnight call in other specialties is annoying, at least you (these days) get the next day off and you can do errands at places that are never open at times other than 10am-4pm.

It's a good tradeoff though (for me). It was said above that path is better for "lifestyle" reasons, but this is totally in the eye of the beholder. As I said, there are many many ways path residency is disruptive to lifestyle - no days off, coming in on weekends on many rotations, etc. And you can't just ditch that extra reading. For a lot of people, the definition of "lifestyle" includes reproducible hours and not having to do anything when you go home. That is not pathology in many programs. "Lifestyle" does not simply mean having less call.

I would not take one's experience at one hospital and equate it to all others. I have been in hospitals where the peds residents worked basically 7am-3 or 4pm and that was it. 8am or even 9am-5pm when in clinic. A lot of my second and third year in path my day was 6am-8pm.

 

[yaah]

I should also add that picking a specialty primarily because of lifestyle considerations is a recipe for complete personal and professional disaster. Every field requires a lot of hard work and self sacrifice, and if your motivations are something other than the field itself, that becomes very arduous. If I was in pediatrics, 50 hrs a week would be too much and cause me to go clinically insane. When I did my M3 in pedes, I probably put in 50 hrs a week or so, it felt like I was always at the hospital or clinic and had no outside life. But in pathology even at 70 hrs/week I felt balanced and happy.

Start with your likes and dislikes about the field. Lifestyle is a nice perk that comes along with your choice if you make it. If you truly like multiple fields, then and only then should it really be a consideration. But if you really like pediatrics but are uncomfortable about the lifestyle, and think you can tolerate pathology but think the lifestyle is better, you would be a complete fool to pick pathology without experiencing it more. We had a resident here who thought that. Flamed out after one year. Couldn't take it, even though she figured out a way to leave at 3pm every day without people finding out.

 

[1 Up]

I should also add that picking a specialty primarily because of lifestyle considerations is a recipe for complete personal and professional disaster. Every field requires a lot of hard work and self sacrifice, and if your motivations are something other than the field itself, that becomes very arduous. If I was in pediatrics, 50 hrs a week would be too much and cause me to go clinically insane. When I did my M3 in pedes, I probably put in 50 hrs a week or so, it felt like I was always at the hospital or clinic and had no outside life. But in pathology even at 70 hrs/week I felt balanced and happy.

Start with your likes and dislikes about the field. Lifestyle is a nice perk that comes along with your choice if you make it. If you truly like multiple fields, then and only then should it really be a consideration. But if you really like pediatrics but are uncomfortable about the lifestyle, and think you can tolerate pathology but think the lifestyle is better, you would be a complete fool to pick pathology without experiencing it more. We had a resident here who thought that. Flamed out after one year. Couldn't take it, even though she figured out a way to leave at 3pm every day without people finding out.

This here is some good advice.

 

[JadinSleeper]

I would agree that out of the 3, Peds is in house the most.

I'm a peds resident. Hours worked will almost always top out at 80. Closest I've come has been like 72 on my inpatient months. On my light months, I may work 8-4 M-F. I will wager that few peds programs are going to blatantly flout the 80 hour rules like some of the more malignant surgery or medicine residencies. It's just not in the nature of most pediatrics programs or peds faculty to abuse residents. That said, I think the number of months of q4 call in any particular residency is highly variable. Some are as low as 4, and others can be far more, sometimes up to 10 or 11.

It's really not all that bad. Yeah, I work a ton, and my days off are precious, but I would have handed in my pager by now if I was doing anything other than peds. In the end, it's only 36 months in total, and the light at the end of the tunnel (regular clinic hours) keeps me going.

 

[Law2Doc]

I should also add that picking a specialty primarily because of lifestyle considerations is a recipe for complete personal and professional disaster. Every field requires a lot of hard work and self sacrifice, and if your motivations are something other than the field itself, that becomes very arduous.

Strongly agree with this advice. I always get concerned when a premed's first question is "how hard do I have to work in various fields" and "how long will the residency be". Not that lifestyle isn't important. But you are going to do this path for the next 45 years or so, and so you really have to like it. As a premed, you have a choice amongst many specialties within medicine, and amongst a variety of careers not in medicine. If you choose the medicine route, you are going to be working hard, always learning, definitely not a 9-5 type job. And during parts of med school and residency, you will likely get a taste of the 80 hour work week. The average hours post-residency for physicians are about 60 hours/week, and most do some professional related reading during off hours. If you aren't going to devote a substantial chunk of your future life to medicine, it's probably not the career path for you. And no you absolutely don't want to pick pathology for any reason other than that it interests you the most. You don't pick a career that way. You might pick a college course that way, but that's only because you know it will end in 3 months.

 

[efex101]

Assume you will be working 80 hrs/week for ANY specialty during intern year. If it is less than great. Like the above posters have said and I will repeat, do NOT PICK your specialty based on hours worked or years in training...and first get into medical school THEN worry about specialties.

 

[Richie Truxillo]

as an intern, doing q4 overnight in house call. 80 hours a week. My program is very firm about not violating the 80 hour/week rule and even more, the 30 hour shift rule. You have to get to be very efficient to avoid going over hours and still get your work done.

 

[ici_cute]

Assume you will be working 80 hrs/week for ANY specialty during intern year. If it is less than great. Like the above posters have said and I will repeat, do NOT PICK your specialty based on hours worked or years in training...and first get into medical school THEN worry about specialties.

hear that? now git!

 

[PunkRockDoc]

I agree with yaah on many points, but especially the part about picking a field based on what you enjoy - not on the percieved "lifestyle".

I completed an internship in family medicine before switching over to pathology to persue a career in forensic pathology. Having done that, and now having completed my first year in path (which was heavy in surgical path and autopsy rotations - our most difficult rotations), I can say that I spend just as much time (or maybe even more time) working as a path resident as I did as an FM intern. The biggest difference - I'm not required to be in the hospital as much. I spend a huge chunk of time working on paperwork while I'm at home (we can access the computer system from home to enter our reports). Personally, I get a bit offended when my medicine friends make comments about path being easy hours. I found clinic and floor time to be easier then what I am doing now.

And as far as attending lifestyle - I think that no matter what field you go into, you can tailor it to your desires. I know family attendings that work 9-5 most days, being on call one weekend a month (generally what the perception of pathology hours are). I also know path attendings that work 7am-7pm everyday and come into the hospital every saturday to finish signing out their cases.

 

[yaah]

Personally, I get a bit offended when my medicine friends make comments about path being easy hours. I found clinic and floor time to be easier then what I am doing now.

As far as these comments, they used to bother me. But then I realized that everyone in medicine thinks that their specialty is underrated or undervalued by other physicians in terms of how much time they spend, how much extra work they have to do, how smart you have to be, etc. We even have threads on this subject here every few months (i.e., "which specialty has the smartest doctors?!?!?" or "which specialty is the most important or saves the most lives?") It is important to simply realize that everyone, including you and me, is basically full of crap. All fields of medicine are difficult. All require lots of hard work and studying. Parts of different fields will fit your personality and work ethic better than others. And when evaluating other fields, you will ignore the drawbacks and focus on the benefits if you want to. To me, four hours in the OR removing a kidney is interminable and exceedingly uninteresting. Therefore, it doesn't really matter how much more urologists make or how much more free time they get. I don't really care.