Internship vs mentorship in GP job

[kate04]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I am entering my 4th year in vet school and am stressing over deciding whether or not to enter the match this year. If I'm not interested in getting into a residency, at least at the moment, what are the advantages/disadvantages of doing an internship rather than trying to find a GP job with good mentorship?
Also, does anyone know what type of internships (e.g. VCA, academic etc) are good if you are interested in GP?
Thanks!
😕

 

[Angelo84]

If you are interested in GP and are debating doing a residency I would look for internships that have some rotations in GP. I don't think any of the academic internships have that. I would go through the VIRMP site and see which practices have a GP rotation. If you are highly unlikely to do a residency I think you could have very good grounding in a good well mentored GP practice--I think those are just hard to find!
If you are on the fence about doing a residency I would do the internship. If you hate ER I would avoid an internship as all internships have a fair amount of ER time some more then others...

I was in the on the fence on doing a residency category and have so far greatly enjoyed my internship--stil on the fence on the residency decision!

 

[Bill59]

Advantages of a well-mentored GP job:
- Better pay
- Better hours (usually)
- Chance for long-term position
- Usually more options and less competition, although not so much right now with the economy
- If you're interested in doing GP, the best experience is actually doing GP

Disadvantage of a well-mentored GP job:
- Actually finding a well-menotored GP job.

Good veterinarians are not always good mentors. Some people just have a gift for teaching. But others have to work at it, which means they need experience and desire. As an associate in GP your primary purpose is to generate income for the practice. That doesn't mean you can't be mentored well at the same time, but just realize what the reality is.

You best chance is a multi-doctor practice with a history of hiring and keeping recent graduates. You worst chance is a single doctor practice hiring their first associate.


Advantages of an internship
- Is intended as first and foremost a TRAINING program. That is, the primary focus is on mentoring you, not you producing income.

Disadvantages of an internship
- Crappy pay, usually crappy hours
- Usually limited to a one-year position
- Usually have to go through the match
- Some internships are in fact NOT set up as training programs, but rather a way to get cheap labor to staff a general practice and/or emergency department. This is especially a problem with some ... but not all ... private practice internships.

 

[ShelterGirl]

Thanks Angelo and Bill. One concern that I have is that it might be difficult for a new graduate to compete with an internship-trained recent grad for a GP position.
I don't want to do an internship but am almost being frightened into doing one simply to "keep up." Any thoughts?

 

[Bill59]

But that's not a fair comparison. A new grad is always going to be at a disadvantage compared to an applicant with 1 year of experience, whether that experience is an internship or year of general practice.

Compare an applicant with a rotating internship vs. one with a year of GP experience. The majority of practice owners don't feel an internship is an advantage over 1 year of GP experience. In fact, some owners feel the internship is a disadvantage because it's not "real world".

The bottom line is if you are going into GP, an internship is not a financial advantage for you.

Also, anyone doing an internship because they feel that aren't ready for a "real job" is making a mistake.

 

[4paws]

What are the thoughts on this for someone who wants to do ER work (no residency)? Internship vs. Multi-doctor ER where you wouldn't be alone for the 1st year or so?

Do most rotating internships prepare you for ER work or would an internship not be worth it unless emergency/critical care is its focus?

 

[laurafinn]

One concern that I have is that it might be difficult for a new graduate to compete with an internship-trained recent grad for a GP position. I don't want to do an internship but am almost being frightened into doing one simply to "keep up." Any thoughts?

The main advantage of an internship in this economy is that you are guaranteed a job (albeit a very poorly paid one) on graduation. It'll give you a year to ride out the bad economy and hope things perk up before you are looking for a job as an associate.

I think you have to think about your personality, and whether you're *over* close supervision (that's my bias, after final year clinics I was really tired of feeling judged and micro-managed). If you're more independent, it might be better to strike out immediately as an associate.

I lucked into the perfect job for me, with just enough mentorship to feel supported, yet the freedom to practice pretty much the way I want. But -- and this is a big but -- it took me 7 long months of unemployment, and there were times when I wondered if I'd ever find a job. Scary.

So I'm going to say don't be cowed into an internship because everyone seems to be doing it. I would have thought my practice (a multi-doctor practice in a nice neighborhood of SF) would only have hired internship-trained grads, but that wasn't their hiring priority at all. That said, there are practices, particularly in California, that seem only to want internship-trained vets, so you may be narrowing your options a little.

 

[Bill59]

I think emergency practice is a tough place for a new grad. It would be OK if you are carefully mentored but that's the exception outside of an internship from what I've seen. Most rotating internships have a pretty heavy focus on emergency, less so for critical care, but it really depends on the particular program.

 

[ShelterGirl]

Thanks Bill and Laura. I'm definitely over the micromanagement already (only 3 months into clinics!) so I will look for a job. It's just difficult to be the "rebel" sometimes when your school pushes internships so hard and nearly all your classmates are going that route. I'll stay strong 🙂

 

[alliecat44]

Just FYI, Virginia Tech's internship includes 9 weeks of GP. Their community practice area was just newly renovated and is very very nice--and headed up by a boarded internist and two ABVP diplomates.

Best of luck whatever you decide. 🙂

 

[TXvet]

I think emergency practice is a tough place for a new grad. It would be OK if you are carefully mentored but that's the exception outside of an internship from what I've seen. Most rotating internships have a pretty heavy focus on emergency, less so for critical care, but it really depends on the particular program.

I started out working emergency just after graduation. Not a good idea if you are not mentored (which was my situation). I left my first job after about 8 months and started working at another EC. I had a lot of mentorship at this EC and learned(and am still learning) a great deal. My boss likes hiring new grads, he is a great teacher and they are never alone. He is board certified in emergency critical care and has a wealth of knowledge that he loves to share. If I need help with a procedure he will drive up to the clinic to help out-even at 4 AM. If you can find an EC like this I think you would be fine starting out in ER work. It is quick pace and stressful but I thrive on that sort of stuff. I hate skin, dentals and behavior questions thus I could never work day practice.

 

[breenie]

Some internships are in fact NOT set up as training programs, but rather a way to get cheap labor to staff a general practice and/or emergency department. This is especially a problem with some ... but not all ... private practice internships.

Is there a way to differentiate between these internships, or do you just have to go off of word of mouth/gut feeling about the type of program it is?

 

[Bill59]

The best way is to visit and talk with the people running the program and talk with the current and recent interns.

 

[CookieBear]

Thanks Bill and Laura. I'm definitely over the micromanagement already (only 3 months into clinics!) so I will look for a job. It's just difficult to be the "rebel" sometimes when your school pushes internships so hard and nearly all your classmates are going that route. I'll stay strong 🙂

Do stay strong and look! There ARE great general practices out there, with wonderful practitioners who enjoy mentoring. With that said, I'm also learning how it's also important to stretch your own wings at times and learn to rely on yourself and your own training. And VIN. And books, too. 😉

Admittedly I was very fortunate and lucky to be in the situation I'm in, and I'm absolutely loving my job (coming home with a smile after 14 hours must mean I like it), and I know there's others like it out there, too.

 

[Minnerbelle]

So if you do go the GP route and get stuck in a horrible mentoring situation, what then? Will it look bad to potential employers if you try to abandon ship early? Like, what would a potential employer feel about a job candidate who has just graduated and has been at their first job for only <6 mos, and is already looking for a new job? Given that there are other job openings in the area, is it advisable to stick with a bad first job for a little while to show commitment and whatnot, or is it okay to leave the first chance you get?

Also, how does the timeline for the match process for internships work? I'm assuming it's too late to enter once you're at the point where you're panicking because you can't find employment in a GP clinic?

not really looking forward to when I have to make these decisions...

 

[Bill59]

If you're stuck in a bad job it's generally better to get out sooner rather than later. You would like to find a new job before you quit the old one but that's not always possible. And you need to make sure you don't violate your contract ... and btw NEVER work without a contract.

Anytime you quit a job you should expect to be asked about it by potential employers. As long as you can proivde a good reason for why you left you should be OK. Just make sure you don't say things like "It was a terrible hospital and the doctors we all idiots." Even if it's true. Much better is something along the lines of "It was just a bad match, we didn't share the same practice philosophy."

Applications for the intern match are due in early December and the results come out early Feb. So you need to start making plans by Sept of 4th year if you want to apply. Besides, applying for an internship because you can't find a GP job is a terrible idea anyway.

For all things intern match:
http://www.virmp.org/

 

[Minnerbelle]

Thanks Bill, that was really helpful info.

Besides, applying for an internship because you can't find a GP job is a terrible idea anyway.

That's what I thought, esp since I was told it's not a good idea to do an internship if you're not going to pursue residency. But I've recently had a couple of clinicians tell me that an internship might be a good idea just to gain extra experience even if my goal is GP. Both cited how that's why there are so many more internships than there are residencies. It's been rather confuzzling because I've also heard that many of these internships are more like abusive treatment of new grads who are being used as cheap labor.

So why are there so many internships?

 

[nyanko]

It's been rather confuzzling because I've also heard that many of these internships are more like abusive treatment of new grads who are being used as cheap labor.

So why are there so many internships?

You answered your own question.

Masquerading under the guise of "education" an unscrupulous employer can hire a new grad and pay less for longer hours. Not saying that even the majority of these do this, buuuut yeah..

Consider that just this year they started providing all of this information for internships, it appears. It seems that nobody regulates internships - AAVC does not regulate residencies but generally the individual colleges for the specialties seem to do a pretty decent job of doing that on their own.

 

[TXvet]

I wouldn't worry too much about how it looks if you leave a bad job early. IMO I think most will know what hospitals are "new grad" mills in their respective area.

 

[StealthDog]

FWIW, I did an internship without planning to go on to a residency- mainly because my teaching hospital didn't see exotics and I really wanted to have some guided experience with exotics. I also felt a little anxious about handling ER or intensive care patients without much oversight, and wanted to start out somewhere where I could focus on developing clinical skills without the pressure of making certain production goals. I chose an internship that was aimed towards providing a good GP and emergency knowledge base rather than a specialty clinic, since I really wanted to know how to handle ear infections, spays, lameness evaluations, etc and not so much how to use ultrasound or endoscopy, how to do a TPLO, or how to put in a goniovalve implant (since honestly, I'll be referring those cases anyway). I felt like my internship was really valuable and I came out with confidence and efficiency that I don't think I would have developed as quickly had I gone straight into practice.