Interventional Radiology Residency Pathway

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Greenberg702

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
397
Reaction score
301
Can some knowledgeable people enlighten me about the future of IR? I heard that the ABR is going to pilot combined DR/IR residency programs in 2015. Is every program with an IR fellowship planning on switching to this model? Is this going to become like integrated plastics/ I-6 CT surgery programs? If so, IR residencies will probably be super competitive.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Direct IR pathway already exists that you can apply as a medical student. I don't know what is the point of creating this new pathway. If they think one year of IR fellowship is not enough, they can make it two years similar to Neuro. Even they can integrate the first year of IR fellowship into the fourth year of residency.

Almost a decade ago when I was a medical student Direct pathway was designed. Everybody was talking about the direct pathway and how it would change IR. Nothing happened. In my opinion, this new pathway is not going to be any different from the direct pathway, if it doesn't make things worse.
 
To the OP, the earliest this will be available is likely 2016. It will be a slow ramp up and the transitioning of no more IR fellowships will be at least 6 or 7 years after that. There will be a couple of ways to get into an IR fellowship. The difference with this pathway and the prior DIRECTs is that this will be primarily recruiting directly out of medical school as opposed to DIRECT which recruited from other categorical residencies. Also, the IR residency will fit in better with the current ABR model of taking the core exam after 3 years of radiology training. The models that seem to work well include ones such as the UVA pathway which has trained some outstanding clinical interventionalists. At the most recent SIR meeting, I have heard that there are several others popping up incuding U of Michigan and U of Colorado. It will likely be a slow transition, but certainly the training for a modern day clinical IR has to be different then in the past. You have to feel comfortable admitting patients, counseling patients, knowing the diseases and comprehensively managing the diseases that you treat. There are so may areas of disease that we are involved in and these are unheralded and exciting times in IR, but this is certainly much more like surgery than radiology in terms of approach and lifestyle.


Good luck
 
Members don't see this ad :)
To the OP, the earliest this will be available is likely 2016. It will be a slow ramp up and the transitioning of no more IR fellowships will be at least 6 or 7 years after that. There will be a couple of ways to get into an IR fellowship. The difference with this pathway and the prior DIRECTs is that this will be primarily recruiting directly out of medical school as opposed to DIRECT which recruited from other categorical residencies. Also, the IR residency will fit in better with the current ABR model of taking the core exam after 3 years of radiology training. The models that seem to work well include ones such as the UVA pathway which has trained some outstanding clinical interventionalists. At the most recent SIR meeting, I have heard that there are several others popping up incuding U of Michigan and U of Colorado. It will likely be a slow transition, but certainly the training for a modern day clinical IR has to be different then in the past. You have to feel comfortable admitting patients, counseling patients, knowing the diseases and comprehensively managing the diseases that you treat. There are so may areas of disease that we are involved in and these are unheralded and exciting times in IR, but this is certainly much more like surgery than radiology in terms of approach and lifestyle.


Good luck

Thanks for the detailed response. It sounds like there will only be a small amount of programs available in the near future, and thus be very competitive. I wonder if DR residencies will become biased against purely IR oriented people in terms of research and letters.
 
Sorry for the confusion, but I am wondering about how the phasing out of fellowships would probably work. If I match next year in DR would an IR fellowship be around in the early 2020's still? It may sound silly but could DR residents be caught in a situation where they could not apply for IR fellowships even though they didn't know when the phasing out would occur before they applied? I assume not but I figured I would try to be sure and understand this.
 
Saturday, July 1, 2017
There will be a nationwide launch date for the Independent model of IR residency on July 1, 2020. ACGME accreditation of IR fellowships will cease on that date. Applications for Independent IR residency programs must be submitted to ACGME by July 1, 2017 to be ready to launch IR residency on July 1, 2020 and avoid a gap in accreditation.


ACGME accreditation of IR Fellowships will cease on July 1, 2020.
  • After July 1, 2020, accredited GME training in Interventional Radiology will be accomplished via IR residency.
IR Residency Formats:
  • Integrated: Match from medical school. Internship. 5 years of residency: 3 yrs DR/2 yrs IR
  • Independent: Take place after completion of DR residency. Match during DR3 year (like fellowship). 2 year residency.
Important Dates:
  • September 1, 2015: The ACGME will be processing Integrated IR residency applications on a first come, first serve basis. Due to the processing time needed, programs are strongly encouraged to apply by September 1, 2015 if they would like to increase the chances of being reviewed and accredited prior to the fall 2016 interview season and the initiation of the 2016-17 Main Residency Match.”
  • July 1, 2017: There will be a nationwide launch date for the Independent model of IR residency on July 1, 2020. ACGME accreditation of IR fellowships will cease on that date. Applications for Independent IR residency programs must be submitted to ACGME by July 1, 2017to be ready to launch IR residency on July 1, 2020 and avoid a gap in accreditation.
 
Does this mean if one is scheduled to graduate in the class of 2020, they have to complete a separate 2 year IR residency? This seems sad if true and future residents are not allowed to switch into the integrated program from DR residency at their respective institution.
 
I would encourage those truly interested in IR to ask these questions on the interview as what the plan is for IR integrated, ESIR and independents. Also, what is the feasibility of transfer and for how many? I think one's best bet is to get into an integrated residency. Currently a similar issue is arising with graduates of general surgery who want to do Vascular , plastics, thoracic. The PDs of those programs are getting very high quality applicants into the integrated and so those programs are starting to fill with mostly integrated and the number of fellowship spots are dropping.
 
Though a lot is still left to be clarified by SIR and the ACGME, my own opinion is that medical students applying for Radiology in the 2016 Match shouldn't worry about IR fellowship positions.

My reasoning: There is simply no way for the ACGME to do site visits and approve all 100+ IR residencies within 1 year. I believe it will take a period of 2-3 years and there will be many traditional fellowship programs for DR residents to apply to.

One piece of advice I would give: When you're on the interview trail make sure that the residency program you are applying to and ranking is participating in the ESIR pathway. That will help ensure that you will be able to do a 1 year IR program after your DR residency, rather than a 2 year IR program.
 
Does this mean if one is scheduled to graduate in the class of 2020, they have to complete a separate 2 year IR residency? This seems sad if true and future residents are not allowed to switch into the integrated program from DR residency at their respective institution.

The answer to this is most likely no, as long as your program is certified for ESIR (Early Specialization in IR). If you go through the ESIR pathway, this is a guarantee to an Independent (2-year) IR Residency program that you have done at least 12 months of IR and IR-Related rotations. From the application document:

Summary: The minimum ESIR requirements are: at least 8 IR rotations, 1 ICU rotation, and up to 3 IR-related rotations during PGY2-5. An ESIR curriculum may include more rotations in IR up to a maximum of 16 as allowed in the DR program requirements.​

You also will have to complete at least 500 procedures during the four year DR residency as well.

IF you complete the ESIR pathway at your institution, then you can skip the first of the two years of the Independent IR Residency Program and enter directly into the second year.
 
There was a session on this at SIR and I was specifically told that they will not be "phasing out" the IR fellowships. In addition to the DR/IR residency (which will have a format almost identical to what residency is now, with IR plugged in for electives and fellowship), IR will become an independent residency (2 years) that can be completed after DR residency. If your DR program fulfills certain requirements, and you can rotate through 9 months of an IR approved clinical rotation (can be IR, or can be numerous other rotations such as Transplant Medicine, Vascular Surgery, Cardiology, etc), you can take a year off of the independent residency.

After scrolling above, I see that this has already been answered. I'm still going to post this because...well...Internet.
 
I have a question sorry if this has been answered. Im still confused. So if I'm starting DR this July at a program with no IR fellowship, how does this affect me? Am I going to have to complete the requirements above or does that not apply to me. I would rather not do 2 years if I don't have to. I did hear there might be opportunities to transfer after R3 but that seems unlikely since programs will just take from within. Thanks for your responses
 
I have a question sorry if this has been answered. Im still confused. So if I'm starting DR this July at a program with no IR fellowship, how does this affect me? Am I going to have to complete the requirements above or does that not apply to me. I would rather not do 2 years if I don't have to. I did hear there might be opportunities to transfer after R3 but that seems unlikely since programs will just take from within. Thanks for your responses

If your program does not have ESIR, you will have to do the two year independent residency if you want to do IR. For ESIR, it does not matter if the program has an IR fellowship. You can transfer within your own program from a DR to DR/IR and vice versa, but, from what they said in March, you will not be able to transfer from DR in one program to DR/IR in another program.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
If your program does not have ESIR, you will have to do the two year independent residency if you want to do IR. For ESIR, it does not matter if the program has an IR fellowship. You can transfer within your own program from a DR to DR/IR and vice versa, but, from what they said in March, you will not be able to transfer from DR in one program to DR/IR in another program.
This isn't 100% true. If you log enough cases(I think it was like 250?) during residency and have the required rotations (icu stuff) you will be able to get credit for 1 of the 2 years. I would have to look back at the SIR newsletter to say exact numbers but pretty sure they haven't completely hashed out the requirements yet.
 
This isn't true. You must graduate from an ESIR certified program to receive credit for 1 of the 2 years. Simple case log and ICU rotation evidence is insufficient.

This isn't 100% true. If you log enough cases(I think it was like 250?) during residency and have the required rotations (icu stuff) you will be able to get credit for 1 of the 2 years. I would have to look back at the SIR newsletter to say exact numbers but pretty sure they haven't completely hashed out the requirements yet.
 
This isn't true. You must graduate from an ESIR certified program to receive credit for 1 of the 2 years. Simple case log and ICU rotation evidence is insufficient.
Correct, this is what I was getting at though didn't remember the specific amount of months in IR you would need. ESIR (Early Specialization in IR) certification looks to be pretty simple to attain (only requires letter of intent / rotation outline, no site visit necessary). You do need a rotation in the icu during some point in pgy2-5 and a minimum of 500 procedures to enter the one year fellowship.

Here's the acgme outline on it:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...sQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNF-kOoAa2hxds282eH5JkVlgSstqw
 
Correct, this is what I was getting at though didn't remember the specific amount of months in IR you would need. ESIR (Early Specialization in IR) certification looks to be pretty simple to attain (only requires letter of intent / rotation outline, no site visit necessary). You do need a rotation in the icu during some point in pgy2-5 and a minimum of 500 procedures to enter the one year fellowship.

Here's the acgme outline on it:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...sQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNF-kOoAa2hxds282eH5JkVlgSstqw

Okay. This is basically what has been said as far as the requirements for the program, however, I do not know what all is required for the ESIR certification. I highly doubt it will be as informal as you're leading on. I cannot remember a "specific number" of IR months required. Only 9 months of IR approved rotations and the total procedure numbers in an ESIR approved program.

Maybe @Gvataken can provide some insight into the specifics behind the ESIR when he's around.
 
Okay. This is basically what has been said as far as the requirements for the program, however, I do not know what all is required for the ESIR certification. I highly doubt it will be as informal as you're leading on. I cannot remember a "specific number" of IR months required. Only 9 months of IR approved rotations and the total procedure numbers in an ESIR approved program.

Maybe @Gvataken can provide some insight into the specifics behind the ESIR when he's around.

Did you read the PDF from the link? I thought it was fairly well hashed out within that document.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Do you think a general surgery internship will be encouraged or required for those applying for these programs?
 
Gen Surg or prelim med will be required I believe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Woah woah woah. So many people do transitional years. This would be a big deal.

If a tough intern year is a deal breaker for someone thinking of doing IR that should be a pretty good indicator that it's not a good field for them to choose. IR is closer to a surgical lifestyle (call, night emergency cases, rounding) then the classic radiology lifestyle (doesn't exist anymore for most but that's a different discussion).

I have pretty strong opinions on TY programs that are extremely cush, I 100% understand why students go for them but from a fiscal perspective I think it's crazy to have Medicare pay for interns to show up from 7-2 with several research / elective months that amount to more vacation time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
If a tough intern year is a deal breaker for someone thinking of doing IR that should be a pretty good indicator that it's not a good field for them to choose. IR is closer to a surgical lifestyle (call, night emergency cases, rounding) then the classic radiology lifestyle (doesn't exist anymore for most but that's a different discussion).

I have pretty strong opinions on TY programs that are extremely cush, I 100% understand why students go for them but from a fiscal perspective I think it's crazy to have Medicare pay for interns to show up from 7-2 with several research / elective months that amount to more vacation time.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Agree. Unfortunately many people choose IR for wrong reasons. They have the wrong perception that they can become a surgeon without surgery hours or hassle of inpatient work. Medical students are usually very blind to the reality of different fields.

For DR, I agree that an 8-6 job does not exist anymore other than a few academic midwest jobs in breast or MSK .However, the nature of work is different. It depends on your personality. Whether you prefer to read non stop CTs or MRs or XRs without a good history or you prefer to round on patients.

TY is a waste of money for the hospital. It may or may not go away. The reality is despite a lot of pressures on physicians and on outpatient physician owned practices, the hospitals are doing very very good financially. Hiring an intern to work 8-2, writing a few notes and take a few night shifts is still not more expensive that hiring a social worker or a transcriptionist and it is much cheaper than hiring a PA esp in places like NY or SF.

To Med students: As preDoGuy24 mentioned, if you think a surgical or medicine internship is hard, step away from IR. You are not a good fit for it.
 
just to make sure I understand. it is still possible to do a IR fellowship after usual DR residency. Its just a matter of 1 or 2 years now on top?
 
I know these sort of things can vary a lot based on type of practice as such, but how much worse is IR lifestyle/call compared to DR? I know IR is basically on par with a lot of surgical specialties and DR is not the 8-4/5 days a week sort of thing some people have the impression of it being. But I was hoping someone could shed some light on what an average-ish amount of hours worked/amount of call there is for both fields.
 
thx bradstein.

@thirdlevel: at my university the DR guys got a pretty good 8-5 thing going. They take calls probably once a month or something from 5-9pm then the residents take over. the residents usually don't call up the attendings i think unless its really something unusual. the slaves i mean residents make the calls and the attending come sin tomorrow and reviews it. i'm guessing at places where u have residents call schedule is prob lighter as in my institution.

the IR guys here have call about once a week. overall i'd say they work less than the DR guys because of turnover guys in procedure room they actually end up sitting around for quite a long time while they're "working"
 
Top