Interview/Acceptance ratios

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YayPudding

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I know this is going to be a silly question, but here goes:

I understand that schools generally interview single digits to 10% of applicants. Of this group, there may be 25%+ accepted and often times 50%+

A school that I'm interested in, for example, will interview ~750 and accept 375-400 for a class of about 160.

Here comes the stupid bit

What guarantee do they have that all of those students won't choose to matriculate? I understand historical precedent, but what if 15 more that year decide they want to go to that school? What if 50 more?
 
That's why they typically under accept and then pull off of wait list... If they over accept their class and they have more people attending then spots available, they will usually offer students substantial scholarship to defer a year. From my understanding this is a big mess up on the deans part and has cost some of them their jobs
 
Because people can hold more than one offer until late in the cycle, a school can't go by how many offers have been accepted although offers that have been declined is useful. Schools depend on historical precedent and plenty of antacids; the month of April can be very stressful in this business. Not admitting "great applicants" outright but putting them on the waitlist is a good way to discourage them or even totally piss them off and have them take an offer received outright and tell you where you can put your waitlist. So the top schools all play the game of chicken: make 2-3.5 offers for every seat and pray not to exceed expectations regarding yield.
 
Because people can hold more than one offer until late in the cycle, a school can't go by how many offers have been accepted although offers that have been declined is useful. Schools depend on historical precedent and plenty of antacids; the month of April can be very stressful in this business. Not admitting "great applicants" outright but putting them on the waitlist is a good way to discourage them or even totally piss them off and have them take an offer received outright and tell you where you can put your waitlist. So the top schools all play the game of chicken: make 2-3.5 offers for every seat and pray not to exceed expectations regarding yield.

Aw, I never really think much about how the process can be stressful for the adcoms too. I hope your cycle is going smoothly and you get to enjoy a really nice holiday season!
 
It's an art form, akin to something like the Dark Arts.

Because people can hold more than one offer until late in the cycle, a school can't go by how many offers have been accepted although offers that have been declined is useful. Schools depend on historical precedent and plenty of antacids; the month of April can be very stressful in this business. Not admitting "great applicants" outright but putting them on the waitlist is a good way to discourage them or even totally piss them off and have them take an offer received outright and tell you where you can put your waitlist. So the top schools all play the game of chicken: make 2-3.5 offers for every seat and pray not to exceed expectations regarding yield.
 
Because people can hold more than one offer until late in the cycle, a school can't go by how many offers have been accepted although offers that have been declined is useful. Schools depend on historical precedent and plenty of antacids; the month of April can be very stressful in this business. Not admitting "great applicants" outright but putting them on the waitlist is a good way to discourage them or even totally piss them off and have them take an offer received outright and tell you where you can put your waitlist. So the top schools all play the game of chicken: make 2-3.5 offers for every seat and pray not to exceed expectations regarding yield.

wow it'd never occurred to me that adcoms could be worried about upsetting applicants. that's so.. cute.
 
The Cleveland Clinic program is at one extreme of this - I believe they can only admit 32 students for their classes and not a single one more or less (I guess part of that is the limitation of funds for free tuition). So I think they only extend 32 offers at a time (they do this in two waves) - the alternate list is drawn on only once an acceptee declines the offer and there's a 1:1 relationship between someone declining an offer and someone else on the alternate list getting that offer. I think they can do this without fear of waitlisted applicants saying "piss off" because of the free tuition.
 
I'm surprised anyone would tell the school accepting them off waitlist to eff off. If they're still on the waitlist at the point they get called shouldn't they be interested in attending?
 
I'm surprised anyone would tell the school accepting them off waitlist to eff off. If they're still on the waitlist at the point they get called shouldn't they be interested in attending?

Let's say, hypothetically that you, an applicant, are admitted to schools ranked 11, 12, 15, 18th and waitlisted at a school ranked 14th. (all numbers hypothetical). Now do you wonder why #14 finds you worthy only of the waitlist while the other 4 admitted you outright? Do you think more highly of 11, 12, 15 and 18 and say, "screw you, 14, if I'm not good enough for an outright offer than you won't get me when you come crawling to take me from the waitlist." Then the applicant withdraws from #14 and takes one of the outright offers. It might be different if the #2 or #3 school in America waitlists you but if peer institutions are competing for you, a very high achieving applicant, then each better keep up or be left behind.
 
It's an art form, akin to something like the Dark Arts.
Say what you will about the tenets of the Dark Arts, at least it's an ethos.
 
Let's say, hypothetically that you, an applicant, are admitted to schools ranked 11, 12, 15, 18th and waitlisted at a school ranked 14th. (all numbers hypothetical). Now do you wonder why #14 finds you worthy only of the waitlist while the other 4 admitted you outright? Do you think more highly of 11, 12, 15 and 18 and say, "screw you, 14, if I'm not good enough for an outright offer than you won't get me when you come crawling to take me from the waitlist." Then the applicant withdraws from #14 and takes one of the outright offers. It might be different if the #2 or #3 school in America waitlists you but if peer institutions are competing for you, a very high achieving applicant, then each better keep up or be left behind.

I know I think more highly of the school that accepted me outright than of the ones that waitlisted me.

I definitely wouldn't hold it against a top 5-10 school for waitlisting me because I know the strength of their applicants and that the process can seem almost arbitrary. I agree - I do hold it against the school for not accepting me outright but when making a decision, that will likely not be an issue at all because location, financial aid, curriculum, etc. are all more important for me. If all of those things were equal (which they could never be), then the waitlisting thing could become an issue but it never will be.
 
Even getting deferred/passed over to remain 'under consideration' annoys me. "We are not prepared to accept you at this time, but...." yeah, **** you lol

That's how I felt when Chicago continued me. I was like "ok, so you send me a II almost immediately in the cycle and then continue me.. I've been told I'm good at interviewing, so hmm.."
 
I know I think more highly of the school that accepted me outright than of the ones that waitlisted me.

Very true. And being lucky enough to have more than one acceptance, I'm stressed enough about the decision between those schools without worrying about considering where I may get in off of the waitlist.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
That's how I felt when Chicago continued me. I was like "ok, so you send me a II almost immediately in the cycle and then continue me.. I've been told I'm good at interviewing, so hmm.."

But interviewing skills are very hard to judge objectively - even by others. With that a caliber of school, a lot of detail might matter because it can be very difficult to distinguish between 10 applicants who are all very highly qualified.
 
But interviewing skills are very hard to judge objectively - even by others. With that a caliber of school, a lot of detail might matter because it can be very difficult to distinguish between 10 applicants who are all very highly qualified.

True. Once you get to the level that applicants to a school like that are at I think it becomes somewhat arbitrary how they distinguish them.
 
True. Once you get to the level that applicants to a school like that are at I think it becomes somewhat arbitrary how they distinguish them.

Oh, I believe it's more than somewhat arbitrary - it's completely arbitrary. They can afford to say, "Well, we want someone who will want to take part in our free clinic to fill this spot, so we're going to look for someone who shows demonstrated interest in that." Or, "Perhaps we want a musician who can contribute to our music in medicine programs."
 
The common wisdom on SDN is that "schools do not interview candidates unless they are interested in potentially admitting them".

Yet, it seems like you can interview well and still end up waitlisted or even rejected. What's to blame? Luck? Do people really get "interviewed for the waitlist"? Or is the common wisdom wrong and there are candidates invited that have terrible odds even if their interviewer rates them well?
 
The common wisdom on SDN is that "schools do not interview candidates unless they are interested in potentially admitting them".

Yet, it seems like you can interview well and still end up waitlisted or even rejected. What's to blame? Luck? Do people really get "interviewed for the waitlist"? Or is the common wisdom wrong and there are candidates invited that have terrible odds even if their interviewer rates them well?

I feel that interviewing for the waitlist is what we do to the applicants who get an interview by virtue of their "connections" to the school (family member is a high ranking member of the administration, etc) despite not having the typical grades, scores and experiences necessary to get an interview.
 
I feel that interviewing for the waitlist is what we do to the applicants who get an interview by virtue of their "connections" to the school (family member is a high ranking member of the administration, etc) despite not having the typical grades, scores and experiences necessary to get an interview.
That makes sense.

So here's the key question: Does your committee ever review applicants without connections that scored well in interview, and then ultimately decide to waitlist or reject them because the rest of their app isn't stellar enough?

If so, why were they invited?
 
That makes sense.

So here's the key question: Does your committee ever review applicants without connections that scored well in interview, and then ultimately decide to waitlist or reject them because the rest of their app isn't stellar enough?

If so, why were they invited?

An applicant can be "good enough" for an interview and do well on the interview but ultimately, the whole package is not as good as some others.
 
An applicant can be "good enough" for an interview and do well on the interview but ultimately, the whole package is not as good as some others.
I suppose that means the conventional SDN wisdom is wrong sometimes then - it is possible to get the II and do everything right on interview day, but still not quite clear the bar.
 
This happens more than you think. I've had interviewees who I loved, but who didn't have that effect ont he other interviewers. The reverse direction also holds true.

Sometimes people might get wait listed simply because they just weren't as good in the interview as the others....but if they had been in a less appealing group, then they might have been the one who stood out positively.

When you're interviewing 500 people for 100 seats, not everyone is going to get accepted. Period.



I suppose that means the conventional SDN wisdom is wrong sometimes then - it is possible to get the II and do everything right on interview day, but still not quite clear the bar.
 
Yet, it seems like you can interview well and still end up waitlisted or even rejected. What's to blame? Luck? Do people really get "interviewed for the waitlist"? Or is the common wisdom wrong and there are candidates invited that have terrible odds even if their interviewer rates them well?

A mix of two things. First, almost everyone thinks they "interview well." It's a very subjective measure so there's a lot of variability there. Second, top schools can look for arbitrary criteria because they have supersaturation of the applicant pool. They get the best of the best and still have too many for the number of seats they have.
 
A mix of two things. First, almost everyone thinks they "interview well." It's a very subjective measure so there's a lot of variability there. Second, top schools can look for arbitrary criteria because they have supersaturation of the applicant pool. They get the best of the best and still have too many for the number of seats they have.
Hence why I was talking about people that scored well and then went under review for decision, with that decision not being an admit. It's possible to do well by their perception not just yours, and still not get in. Which means the idea that anyone getting an II can get an accept isn't borne out all that well.
 
This happens more than you think. I've had interviewees who I loved, but who didn't have that effect ont he other interviewers. The reverse direction also holds true.

Sometimes people might get wait listed simply because they just weren't as good in the interview as the others....but if they had been in a less appealing group, then they might have been the one who stood out positively.

When you're interviewing 500 people for 100 seats, not everyone is going to get accepted. Period.
Do you ever see people that are rated highly by all (both?) their interviewers end up not getting in?
 
Hence why I was talking about people that scored well and then went under review for decision, with that decision not being an admit. It's possible to do well by their perception not just yours, and still not get in. Which means the idea that anyone getting an II can get an accept isn't borne out all that well.

Hence why the second condition exists. They can choose to build their class based on arbitrary criteria because they have more favorably-ranked applicants than they have seats.
 
The common wisdom on SDN is that "schools do not interview candidates unless they are interested in potentially admitting them".
I suppose that means the conventional SDN wisdom is wrong sometimes then - it is possible to get the II and do everything right on interview day, but still not quite clear the bar.

the following i think answers your questions pretty well

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/interviews-from-behind-the-curtain.1116219/

EDIT: maybe that title should be "Interviews: the View From Behind the Curtain!"

I just answered a PM and my correspondent, who just had an interview asked " ...I saw what looked like a grading rubric... is it possible that you are literally evaluated on paper? But have you heard of such a thing?
Also what's with the note taking? Like what gets written down exactly?"

With interviews, the interviewer does have a score sheet. Questions for the interviewee might be written down on them as well. Without going into too much detail, we score interviewees on their ability think, talk and to listen. We also give them an overall final score.

We write down notes about both good and bad things interviewees say do (like "babbling idiot"; "didn't answer Joe's question"; "really articulate"; "great answer!"). We also might jot something down to prompt a follow-up question. When we're done, we write our final summaries on the candidates (the more we write, the better for our wily old Admissions Dean when he discusses the outcome with our Dean, who is the Ultimate Decider.


"So is there a certain weight that's given to these scores? "
At our score it's just the one that's called "Overall Ranking". This is averaged with those of the other interviewers. You need a certain number to be accepted. Even then, candidates do come up for discussion at times in the Adcom meeting. My score may be very divergent from the other interviewers (Drs X and Y and student Z), and one of us will want it to be straightened out, one way or another in the meeting.

So is it pass or fail? Or does having a very strong interview help you "beat" other applicants who have slightly better apps who had average interviews only?

With all due respect to my young correspondent, this notion that one interviewee is competing for one seat against other candidates (like tenure candidates at Yale) is 100% NOT true! We don't ration seats; it's always you competing against yourself.

The scoring system more like boxing or Olympic gymnastics. You are judged by several different people. The total scores determine your fate.

But even that is not absolute. For example, let's say that I may love you and give you a 10/10, but X, Y and Z might give you a 7, 5 and 2. That's an average of 6 (24/4 = 6). You need a 7 or more to be accepted, while and a 3 or worse would be rejected. So the Admissions dean now lists you as "wait list".

In the Adcom meeting, I argue that the candidate was a great kid, strong upward trend, decent MCAT, yada yada, etc etc. Y is also at the meeting, but his argument doesn't carry as much weight amongst the Adcom. X and Z didn't come to the meeting, and all we have are their notes to go on, and there's nothing damning among them. So I sway the committee to move the candidate to "Accept" status.

Here's a different scenario: Despite all interviewers loving you, the Dean has concerns about your GPA. The Dean loves high GPAs. So he overrules the committee, and onto the waitlist you go.

Capeesh?
 
Hence why the second condition exists. They can choose to build their class based on arbitrary criteria because they have more favorably-ranked applicants than they have seats.
So why did they bother interviewing the candidate who aces the interview and still doesn't get the admit? What's the point of spending that time/resources on someone who will not be good enough regardless of their interview? Only thing I can think of is because they need to build a waitlist too.

Alternatively, I suppose, is that they don't actually know what arbitrary criteria they want for the class until after having gone through the interviewing?
 
These may have been addressed, but:

  • Is it acknowledged that some may be invited to interview with the committee intending to place them on the wait list if they do well, or reject them if they don't?
  • That performance on the interview is the major post-interview factor when it comes time to decide admission? By this I mean GPA, MCAT, ECs etc. will be used as factors to distinguish two competitive candidates?
  • How is the MMI applied? I have interviewed at 3 schools that used it and was accepted to 2, waiting to hear back from the 3rd. Is all feedback averaged out?
 
Is it acknowledged that some may be invited to interview with the committee intending to place them on the wait list if they do well, or reject them if they don't?
Not usually


That performance on the interview is the major post-interview factor when it comes time to decide admission? By this I mean GPA, MCAT, ECs etc. will be used as factors to distinguish two competitive candidates?
I don't have it handy, but there was an AAMC publication a few years back that showed GPA + MCAT were the top factors for inviting to interview, and interview/LoRs/stats were then the top factors for admission

How is the MMI applied? I have interviewed at 3 schools that used it and was accepted to 2, waiting to hear back from the 3rd. Is all feedback averaged out?
Usually averaged between stations
 
Not usually



I don't have it handy, but there was an AAMC publication a few years back that showed GPA + MCAT were the top factors for inviting to interview, and interview/LoRs/stats were then the top factors for admission


Usually averaged between stations
Thanks and I think the adcom factors document is in your signature!
 
Post interview straight rejections seem like they could have only been the result of poor interview performance. If not there is more pointless sadism in this process then I first realized.
 
Post interview straight rejections seem like they could have only been the result of poor interview performance. If not there is more pointless sadism in this process then I first realized.
It really gets crazy when you consider schools that interview 3-4 applicants per 1 admit. There's no way only a quarter of people are interviewing well. I think SDN might attribute a lot more to interviewing than it is due, it just seems to me everything else combined must carry so much more weight.
 
So why did they bother interviewing the candidate who aces the interview and still doesn't get the admit? What's the point of spending that time/resources on someone who will not be good enough regardless of their interview? Only thing I can think of is because they need to build a waitlist too.

Alternatively, I suppose, is that they don't actually know what arbitrary criteria they want for the class until after having gone through the interviewing?

Yeah, they don't go into it saying "We need 4 musicians, 12 researchers, etc." They literally build a class.

The thing is, you don't know whether an applicant is going to ace an interview before you interview them. So that's the direct answer. Many people look similar on paper but are completely different in person. You don't know that until you actually meet them in person. That's the point. Also, most of the interview costs accrue to the applicant and the part charged to the school likely gets priced into the cost of attendance anyway. I believe that if med schools started paying for interview travel and accommodations like grad school, they would be much more selective in who they interview - probably 400 for 200 acceptances then.
 
Yeah, they don't go into it saying "We need 4 musicians, 12 researchers, etc." They literally build a class.

The thing is, you don't know whether an applicant is going to ace an interview before you interview them. So that's the direct answer. Many people look similar on paper but are completely different in person. You don't know that until you actually meet them in person. That's the point. Also, most of the interview costs accrue to the applicant and the part charged to the school likely gets priced into the cost of attendance anyway. I believe that if med schools started paying for interview travel and accommodations like grad school, they would be much more selective in who they interview - probably 400 for 200 acceptances then.
Don't interviewees for grad school get their flights + place to stay paid for? Would be very interested to hear how the ratios compared at selective PhD programs
 
Of the data I have the number of interviews/matriculants the mean is 4.2 median is 3.9 , SD 1.6 . Min 1 and max 8.3
It is probably not far fetched to accept 2x matriculants. so on average it is likely a 50 /50 chance of acceptance and wait list. Rejections seem like actively not wanting the applicant regardless of availability of seat.
 
Don't interviewees for grad school get their flights + place to stay paid for? Would be very interested to hear how the ratios compared at selective PhD programs

Most programs don't interview many applicants. Ex. A PI in clinical psychology program at a HYP that I am familiar with, interviewed 5 students last year, accepted two. 3/4 PIs in the department with similar numbers makes it not so expensive to pay for everything.

PhD chem and biochem I am familiar with the numbers are a little higher, 10-15 interviewed, 5 or so accepted. Multiply by 3-5 faculty taking candidates.
 
Most programs don't interview many applicants. Ex. A PI in clinical psychology program at a HYP that I am familiar with, interviewed 5 students last year, accepted two. 3/4 PIs in the department with similar numbers makes it not so expensive to pay for everything.

PhD chem and biochem I am familiar with the numbers are a little higher, 10-15 interviewed, 5 or so accepted. Multiply by 3-5 faculty taking candidates.
Are PIs on the hook for the costs? Did not realize that

Something like 2 accepted out of 5 interviewed actually sounds like the ratio at most med schools though
 
Are PIs on the hook for the costs? Did not realize that

Something like 2 accepted out of 5 interviewed actually sounds like the ratio at most med schools though
Sounds higher actually
 
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