Interview invitation from CA internal med programs

[avendesora]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Originally posted by bartholomew
Profunda,

I'm sure you'll have a shot. You still have lots of opportunities to strengthen your application. I attend a large midwest university with no reputation, I was in the middle of my class, with overall honors in 2 clerkships and "clinically" honoring 4 of them. My USMLE score was slightly above national mean. No pubs. Some research experience. Strong letters of recommendations. Overall, average numbers with strong clinical showing and letters of recommendation. My perception is that my numbers held me back from Davis. Things may have been different if I were in the top quarter or top third of my class or scored over 230 on USMLE. This is just a guess tho...I guess I shouldn't be surprised, I just thought my clerkship evaluations and letters would speak louder on my behalf...

Heh -- you could be describing me.

I have had a similar experience -- it seems like like the "bigger" programs roughly fall out into two categories. Those who actually read your application and care who you "are" and those that look at your med-school reputation and numbers alone and care more about where your're "from".

Seems like from what I've heard, the Cali programs are of the latter type. Needless to say, I got rejected from Stanford and UCSD, the only 2 I applied to out there. Not that I could afford to live there, anyway.

Anyone similar stats take heart -- you will get lots of good interviews, and from there you will go as high as your personality takes you.

 

[scrub monkey]

anyone with any impressions from california interviews?

i personally have been to santa clara valley med.
seems like a strong program. busy county hospital. good resident autonomy. residents from strong med schools. diverse patient population. stanford med students and residents. about 1/4 of residents go on to fellowships. pricey area to live.

 

[bartholomew]

dr scrub monkey,

Thanks for the input. I have mine in January, so I can't comment quite yet, but regarding SCVM...

I imagine the prelim folks going to Stanford the following year are from the strongest programs in the country, but what schools were represented in the categorical group?

Similarly, did they provide you with specific information on what fellowships were obtained in terms of specialty and location?

Moreover, what was your "gestalt" about the place?

 

[scrub monkey]

the categoricals were from a generally pretty impressive group of med schools. most from uc's, a couple stanford grads, and a mix of folks from decently strong east coast med schools. next year's chief is a harvard grad.

as for the fellowships, there were a number of folks who went to stanford for nephrology and endocrine, not so impressive gi and cards matches, with a cards in new mexico, a gi in new mexico, and a gi at ucla. the fellowship situation would be my one concern with going to valley. they say that everyone who wanted a fellowship got one. but i'm not sure if the low number of folks going into fellowships (25%) is because they didn't think they could get a good one where they wanted or because they were just interested in general internal medicine in the 1st place.

overall, scvmc seemed like a great place to get strong internal medicine training. the rumor is that stanford residents all fight to go to the valley, because that's where they actually learn some bread and butter medicine. valley residents also seem better prepared for general internal medicine than stanford residents at graduation. again, the one concern would have to be fellowship placement. i'm sure stanford residents rock when it comes to fellowships.

 

[P Diddy]

Originally posted by scrub monkey

overall, scvmc seemed like a great place to get strong internal medicine training. the rumor is that stanford residents all fight to go to the valley, because that's where they actually learn some bread and butter medicine. .

the Valley is a great place, but Stanford residents fight to go there because the patient population is less acute than at Stanford. It's so much easier, especially as a resident, to have 5 patients who could leave AMA at any time (Valley) vs 5 patients who could code at any time (SUH) . Also, the food allowance is key.

The hospitalist attendings are very good, some better than those at stanford, and are great people to boot.

 

[nimboo]

can anyone enlighten me on Cal Pacific? i was looking at the website and it seems like a pretty solid program for a community hospital. it seems to also have strong ties to ucsf. What do ppl think>

also, it seems to me that a lot of ppl got interviews at ucla this year. is this because of their ranking problems last year? does anyone know how many ppl they actually rank?

 

[cbc]

hi, i'm curious, how does santa clara valley and cal pac compare to harbor and cedars?

 

[cbc]

For anyone who'd like to answer, I was also wondering the step1 cutoff for harbor. Thanks.

Originally posted by cbc
hi, i'm curious, how does santa clara valley and cal pac compare to harbor and cedars?

 

[scrub monkey]

i don't think you'd be able to find an actual cut-off for board scores at harbor, unless you know somebody on the admissions committee. but i kind of doubt they would use board scores to really weed folks out. my guess would be that as long as you scored above 210 or so, they'd at least take a look at your application. just guessing.

i think harbor has some pretty strong residents though from good medical schools.

very busy place to work.

 

[cbc]

Thanks. Any guesses as to the average step1 of the people who matched there?

Originally posted by scrub monkey
i don't think you'd be able to find an actual cut-off for board scores at harbor, unless you know somebody on the admissions committee. but i kind of doubt they would use board scores to really weed folks out. my guess would be that as long as you scored above 210 or so, they'd at least take a look at your application. just guessing.

i think harbor has some pretty strong residents though from good medical schools.

very busy place to work.

 

[gimmedog]

SCVMC -- some stanford folks say it's not uncommon to get out by noon on noncall days--I think that's why they're into SCVMC. Also, the teaching is supposed to be great--Stanford med students consistently give teaching awards and good evaluations of their clerkships there. Ancillary support seemed excellent and the building was nice. Laid back, friendly, happy residents who seem devoted to their working-poor county patients. However, at the one noon conference I observed ( may have been a fluke) was not super impressive and people didn't seem to participate much--maybe all the extra folks made people self conscious. Stanford students and residents say the housestaff at SCV are strong. Housing cost not what it used to be--pretty reasonable since economy tanked in CA.

 

[sienna]

I'm an intern at SCVMC and I'd like to add my impressions to this thread:

I am so happy that I am at this program.
In terms of the schedule, we do get out generally at a reasonable time on post call days but that is not because of a shortage of work. It's more due to the fact that everyone in the administration is commited to following the new regulations and so as interns we can sign out some work to our residents and to cross-cover. Also we have a great system of night float and coverage for going "overcap". The volume in this hospital is huge - believe me there is plenty of work to go around. Because the ancillary support is so good I find that scut is really a minimum and what scut there is mostly pertains to discharge and placement things - that's just part of a county system.

Teaching here is excellent. We are fortunate to have a really committed faculty and it is true that the Stanford residents seem to really enjoy it here. We don't have private attendings which they do at Stanford and that makes a huge difference.

In terms of conferences, we have a fair number and I agree with the above poster that participation can be variable depending on the speaker, the topic, the time of year etc. Generally intern report on wed. mornings has great participation. Resident report on other mornings seems to depend. In general there is a good turnout at noon conference - probably helped by the food too 🙂

As a valley intern, I've done rotations at Stanford as well and I don't think that the reason that Stanford residents like it here is because of the decreased acuity of cases at least in terms of general ward medicine. It may be different when the Stanford interns are covering the transplant services at SUH. I actually find the acuity to be pretty comparable and in many cases we actually see cases much later in progression of disease here since many of our patients don't have access to regular care.

I think that many of the people who come to the Valley are actually interested in general medicine either as a hospitalist / primary care. Also, people tend to decide on fellowships much later in this program ? like around 3rd year and then take some time off. I find the Stanford interns for the most part already know what they want to do. That?s not so much the case here. I think the matching really depends on the candidate, research experiences and such, but it is very possible to make good connections here and the affiliation with Stanford opens up a wealth of research opportunities. Having said that, if the most important thing to you is matching at a big name hospital in cardiology this may not be the best place for you. However it is entirely possible to match well for fellowships and there are a consistent number of people who go on to well-known universities for further training (usually after a year or two off).

I think to be happy here you really need to like working with a county population. The approach to things at this program is a little more laid-back than most other places. Camaraderie here is great. We get free food and free parking (Believe me, it?s the little things in residency that make a huge difference.) We get the opportunity to do some teaching with all the Stanford med students that come through and they seem to love it here.This is not a place with huge egoes. We help each other out and we get through and I think we are a pretty happy bunch 🙂 . Let me know if there are further questions?

 

[cbc]

Hi. Thank you for your contribution. I have a question. Is it wrong to say valley has one fellowship program (nephrology)? If so, where do most candidates who choose to do fellowship tend to go (doesnt have to be specific hospital, but I mean location). CPMC? Southern cal? Thanks.

 

[P Diddy]

Originally posted by sienna
I'm an intern at SCVMC and I'd like to add my impressions to this thread:

In terms of the schedule, we do get out generally at a reasonable time on post call days but that is not because of a shortage of work. It's more due to the fact that everyone in the administration is commited to following the new regulations and so as interns we can sign out some work to our residents and to cross-cover.

This is inaccurate. When I rotated as an intern at SCV last year people were signing out at 12 as well, and the work hour rules hadn't been implemented yet.

Teaching here is excellent.

This is true.

As a valley intern, I've done rotations at Stanford as well and I don't think that the reason that Stanford residents like it here is because of the decreased acuity of cases at least in terms of general ward medicine. It may be different when the Stanford interns are covering the transplant services at SUH. I actually find the acuity to be pretty comparable and in many cases we actually see cases much later in progression of disease here since many of our patients don't have access to regular care.

This is also inaccurate. I am a Stanford resident and I like the Valley because there is decreased acuity, in addition to the food allowance and the excellent hospitalists. All of my friends who wanted a Valley rotation this year cited an easier month as one of the Valley perks. Ask any Valley intern whether a Stanford or Valley month is harder and I'm sure they'll tell you Stanford. Many of the admissions at Valley are social/placement and their ER is subpar, leading to soft R/O CVA and R/O MI admissions.

I think that many of the people who come to the Valley are actually interested in general medicine either as a hospitalist / primary care.

I think to be happy here you really need to like working with a county population.

I agree with these statements.

 

[cbc]

I guess no one wanted to answer my previous question. Ok...next, I was wondering how "competitive" it is to match at harbor-ucla and cedars relative to ucsd and ucd? Assuming if you had interviews to all these places, how would you (or typical applicant) rank them? Thanks.

 

[SoCalDreamin']

Originally posted by cbc
I guess no one wanted to answer my previous question. Ok...next, I was wondering how "competitive" it is to match at harbor-ucla and cedars relative to ucsd and ucd? Assuming if you had interviews to all these places, how would you (or typical applicant) rank them? Thanks.

The reason no one replied to your previous post is probably because things are so relative when it comes to offering interviews. However, I will attempt to give you a generic answer, having recently interviewed at Harbor-UCLA myself.

Regardless of your medical school's rank, I would venture to guess that you will need to have at least a 230 on Step I. This is especially true if you are not AOA. Considering that the national average on Step I these days is a 217, you will likely understand why you would need the aforementioned Step I score. If you are AOA, I would say that you could probably land an interview with a Step I score in between 217 and 229.

The match at Harbor UCLA is very competitive. Here are the medical schools from which their house staff have matriculated:

Chief Residents:
UCLA
UCLA
Johns Hopkins

PGY-3's:
U Chicago Pritzker
Northwestern
UC San Francisco
U Chicago Pritzker
Oregon
UCLA
McGill
Michigan
Tufts
NYU
UCLA
UCLA
USC
UC Irvine
UCLA
UCLA
U Chicago Pritzker
Chicago Medical

PGY-2's:
UCLA
Jefferson
UCLA
Chicago Medical
UCLA
UCLA
NYU
Keck USC
UCLA
U Chicago Pritzker
UC Davis
Keck USC
Harvard
Boston
UC Davis
UCLA
Northwestern

PGY-1's:
UCSF
Harvard
Rush
Duke
UCLA
Drexel
Loma Linda
UC Davis
Keck-USC
Chicago Med
Chicago Med
Keck-USC
UCLA
UC San Diego
UCLA
Einstein
Baylor

As far as how hard it is to match at the programs you listed, again, it is all relative to your application's strengths and the quality of your interview. Assuming you are a stellar candidate, I would venture to say that the school's reputation will play a big role in how hard it is to obtain a residency position. Of the school's you listed, it would be the most challenging to match into UCSD, followed by Harbor-UCLA, UC-Davis, and Cedars-Sinai.

As far as how to rank the schools you listed....I have only been to Harbor, so I don't know if I would be happy at the other schools. If you want to do primary care, attend whichever school you think you will be happiest at. If you want to obtain fellowship, then I would sacrifice some happiness and consider the programs' reputations (see above) and their recent fellowship match lists.

 

[cbc]

Hey socaldreamin. Thanks for the informative response. Are you really socal dreamin if you are only going for harbor? Maybe it's time to change your name to socalditchin. Do you have any housestaff info on cedars? How would you compare the competitiveness of cedars and usc?

 

[SoCalDreamin']

I have interviewed at multiple programs in Cali. In my response, I only talked about Harbor because you asked about it. I have not been to the other programs that you listed, so I didn't want to make any statements about the quality of their programs without having any firsthand, personal experience. I don't have any info on USC, but I am sure you would find plenty of info. by using the search function on this UBB. Good luck.

 

[cbc]

Hey socal. I gotcha. Well, there are a few threads talkin about the quality of these programs, but none of competitiveness. I figure, no matter how good each program is, if I cant get in, it's useless to talk. So I begin by asking, how competitive are these programs?

So my question is, how "competitive" in comparison between cedars and usc? I'm assuming cedars might be more popular since usc is county??

Originally posted by SoCalDreamin'
I have interviewed at multiple programs in Cali. In my response, I only talked about Harbor because you asked about it. I have not been to the other programs that you listed, so I didn't want to make any statements about the quality of their programs without having any firsthand, personal experience. I don't have any info on USC, but I am sure you would find plenty of info. by using the search function on this UBB. Good luck.

 

[scrub monkey]

i personally think cedars is probably a bit more competitive than usc. sc unfortunately has a bit of a bad rap throughout the country. though the program is actually pretty decent, most folks outside of california consider la county to be pretty much of an out of control crazy jungle hospital. since usc also has some 54 categorical intern spots, i can't imagine it being too hard to grab one of those spots.

i recently visited harbor, and i agree it's a top notch program. the residents are from strong med schools, and they all seemed extremely competent. their fellowship match is super, with virtually everyone going on to fellowships.

one question, why doesn't santa clara valley med do better for fellowships? they're also a county program like harbor. they get pretty studly residents, from strong med schools like stanford, ucla, etc., but their fellowship match is nothing like harbor's. in past years, they've only had a couple of folks going into fellowships each year. while ucla-harbor is matching it's residents into gi at stanford and ucsf, scvmc is matching its resident into gi in new mexico. just wondering why. both programs seem very similar. but harbor's residents seem to do so much better with fellowships.

 

[bariume]

Cedars is a very competitive program to get into. Believe it or not, a lot of the residents are AOA. Part of the reason for its competitiveness is its reputation for serving the stars, and for being a "cush" program. The fellowship matching is decent.

USC is known for little supervision, lots of work, and lots of scut. The program has >50 residents and a good percentage are IMGs, offshore graduates, and DOs. I dont think the fellowship match is that good.

Harbor is known to be a very academically strong program. As for matching its residents into high powered GI positions, the GI directors are very supportive and there are serious connections throughout all the UCLA affiliated hospitals so your network is large. The residents that go to Harbor are outstanding to begin with also.

 

[scrub monkey]

Hey CBC,

Here's the list for Cedars' intern class that you were asking about:
Northwestern
Med College of Wisconsin
Chicago Med (2)
UC Irvine (3)
Johns Hopkins
UCLA (2)
McGill
Sackler
St. Louis (2)
NYU
Tufts (2)
Med College of Ohio
USC
George Washington
U Tenn Memphis
UC Davis
UCSD
Albany

Pretty strong list. Though not as impressive as UCLA-Harbor or even Santa Clara Valley Med. But again, you can't judge quality of residents based on their medical schools.

Bariume,
Thanks for the info. And congrats on the GI fellowship. I'm hoping for GI as well. How would you rank california IM residency programs for an applicant interested specifically in GI? Thanks!

 

[nimboo]

what did ppl think of ucla? are you guys planning on ranking them high?

 

[cbc]

Man, this is bull. Isnt medicine supposed to be an "easier" specialty? Why is it so damn impossible? Scrub monkey just said cedars is less competitive than UCDAVIS!!!, but you need AOA? Who goes to ucsf then, super AOA? Then who gets to go to ucsf derm/orthopedics?

If one needs AOA to go to cedars, no residency will take me, who's just an average med student worthy of perhaps a kaiser program in the midwest if they get desperate.

Originally posted by bariume
Cedars is a very competitive program to get into. Believe it or not, a lot of the residents are AOA. Part of the reason for its competitiveness is its reputation for serving the stars, and for being a "cush" program. The fellowship matching is decent.

USC is known for little supervision, lots of work, and lots of scut. The program has >50 residents and a good percentage are IMGs, offshore graduates, and DOs. I dont think the fellowship match is that good.

Harbor is known to be a very academically strong program. As for matching its residents into high powered GI positions, the GI directors are very supportive and there are serious connections throughout all the UCLA affiliated hospitals so your network is large. The residents that go to Harbor are outstanding to begin with also.

 

[emmitfitzhume]

Originally posted by nimboo
what did ppl think of ucla? are you guys planning on ranking them high?

My thoughts on So Cal programs.
UCLA-great name, not that impressed by the interview day. Didn't meet a single intern at the pre dinner or on the interview day, I'm guessing they don't have a lot of time to chat. Was not excited about haveing 6 categorical spots unmatched last year, never a great sign. I have never been to a place where many of the residents used the word " malignant " to descibe their own program. With that said, I don't mind being at a program that is hard or even malignant but I wasn't too excited about their STAR fellowships for GI and cards, the line is that they won't even take thier own residents unless they commit to these tracks. UCLA is still a huge name nationally and will pull some weight, but I still wasn't as impressed as I thought I would with where their residents go for fellowships, and the fact that they don't publish the list like other programs do. I will be ranking them lower on my list.

Harbor-love the program, actually did a three week rotation there and cannot say enough about the program. The brightest and most confident residents I have ever met, they work hard and seem to be a very cohesive group. This program is definatley not for everyone, it gives you a great deal of autonomy and is light on the spoon feeding. As talked about above, residents come from top schools, many AOA, go on to great fellowships. I think harbor is less selective in offering interviews than say UCLA and UCSD simply because they don't have the national name and it may not be on many peoples radar screen east of the Miss, but it is very competitive to land a spot. From talking to UCLA students and doctors in the area, Harbor residents are known to be the best trained in So Cal and finish the program ready to tackle anything. They have a very strong reputation and history on the west coast, kind of an old school type program. From my experience as an extern, I can say the faculty are incredible and the patients are full of pathology. There are obviously some negatives to county systems but to me these are peripheral in importance. Harbor will be my number one choice in So Cal, and pretty sure #1 overall.

UCSD-more impressed with the program than I thought I would be, good facilities, great patient population, a little bummed by poor resident showing at conference, about five of them with 25 interviewers. I think the new program director should be good, the current was supposed to be not so well liked. The new guy is from UW and they raved about how great he is at that interview. In addition, San Diego is got to be one of the best places on earth.

USC- fun place to visit, not a front runner for me, too large, lot of FMGs, unhappy residents.

I can't comment on other So Cal programs.

 

[Vision]

Anyone care to comment about how I should rank these school, keep in mind that I want to do a GI felloship

Cedar, USC, UCI, UCD, LA Kaiser, VA-UCLA, Cal pacific, Scripp Green, Cal Pacific.

Appreciate any input, thanks!

 

[scrub monkey]

to cbc, i never said cedars was less competitive than uc davis. that was so cal dreamin'. i actually think cedars is more competitive than uc davis because of the posh hospital and nice location. davis is a decent program. it's less popular because of its location in sacramento.

i agree that california is a tough place to apply for residency. even aoa folks are not guarenteed any interviews. still there are enough im programs that anybody wanting to just be in cali should be able to.

as for the programs, i too was impressed with harbor. strong program. very confident and competent residents. awesome fellowship matches. but tons of scut! so be prepared to work your tail off.

kaiser la - cushy program. interns don't carry much more than 7 patients. senior residents go to hawaii together? interns have protected sleep time during call nights. about 50% of residents go into fellowships, mostly at kaiser. great program if you want to stay in the kaiser system, but not so good if you are looking for more university academic positions.

anyone else have any other insights. it's starting to get tough separating programs from each other and forming a rank list.

 

[scrub monkey]

to cbc, i didn't say that cedars is less competitive than uc davis. that was so cal dreamin. i actually think cedars is probably a bit more competitive than uc davis because of the posh hospital and nice location. davis is a decent program, but gets a bad rap because of sacramento.

i agree that california is a tough place to apply for residency. even aoa folks are not guarenteed any interviews. still there are enough im programs that anybody wanting to just be in cali should be able to.

as for the programs, i too was impressed with harbor. strong program. very confident and competent residents. awesome fellowship matches. but tons of scut! so be prepared to work your tail off.

kaiser la - cushy program. interns don't carry much more than 7 patients. senior residents go to hawaii together? interns have protected sleep time during call nights. about 50% of residents go into fellowships, mostly at kaiser. great program if you want to stay in the kaiser system, but not so good if you are looking for more university academic positions.

anyone else have any other insights. it's starting to get tough separating programs from each other to make a rank list.

 

[bariume]

Originally posted by emmitfitzhume
With that said, I don't mind being at a program that is hard or even malignant but I wasn't too excited about their STAR fellowships for GI and cards, the line is that they won't even take thier own residents unless they commit to these tracks.

This is an astute observation. This is very much true amongst those in the UCLA system. The STAR program was created to increase the number of physician scientists who are skilled in research and thus more likely to pursue an academic career. It has been the major source of funding for subspecialty fellowship at UCLA. So there are large financial incentives for the departments to put people through the STAR track. However this means at least 4-5 year commitment on the part of the trainee. Many people do not want to spend that much time in subspecialty training. Unfortunately, what this has translated to is that those in the UCLA system who are interested in staying for the in-house fellowships are strongly encouraged to think about STAR. Lets face it, without funding, there is no fellowship position.

However, UCLA is still probably the strongest IM program in Southern California. The names carries much weight and the graduates will go on to reputable positions in the future regardless.

 

[cbc]

scrubmonk, sorry about confusing you with socaldream. do you think ucd residents were aoas?

nice observation about valley. dont know why it doesnt place fellows like harbor. but do you or anyone know if calpac place more residents than valley into fellowships? supposively calpac not as strong of a program as valley, but like you said valley doesnt place lots of subspecs. maybe it's better to go calpac then???

Originally posted by scrub monkey
one question, why doesn't santa clara valley med do better for fellowships? they're also a county program like harbor. they get pretty studly residents, from strong med schools like stanford, ucla, etc., but their fellowship match is nothing like harbor's. in past years, they've only had a couple of folks going into fellowships each year. while ucla-harbor is matching it's residents into gi at stanford and ucsf, scvmc is matching its resident into gi in new mexico. just wondering why. both programs seem very similar. but harbor's residents seem to do so much better with fellowships.

 

[gimmedog]

Originally posted by scrub monkey
one question, why doesn't santa clara valley med do better for fellowships? they're also a county program like harbor. they get pretty studly residents, from strong med schools like stanford, ucla, etc., but their fellowship match is nothing like harbor's. in past years, they've only had a couple of folks going into fellowships each year.

On my prelim interview (with the categoricals) they said that many do fellowships, but often after working a year or two. Also they said most people have a foot in the door at Stanford fellowships having worked with many of their attendings and fellows. Who knows if it's true, but they said practically everyone who wanted a Stanford fellowship has gotten it from SCVMC.

 

[Southern Hick]

hey CA-bound ppl,

i was pleasantly surprised by UCLA. decent enough of a place, nice ppl. i can easily do IM there.

emmit--here's the list of where their residents from 2 yrs ago went for fellowships...it was on their old website, but for some reason, they took it off the new revised website. i had cut and pasted it for reading material on the plane ride over...

Burawit Charuworn Pulmonary-Critical Care Fellowship, UCLA
Basit Chaudhry Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholar, UCLA
Dave Chen Private Practice, Los Angeles
Jamie Chen Gastroenterology Fellowship, UCSD
Judy Chen Robert Wood Johnson Clinical Scholar, UCLA
Randolph Chen Nephrology Fellowship, UCLA
Treise Chesnut Private Practice, Los Angeles
Peter Crosson Kaiser Foundation, Bellflower, CA
Gregory Giesler Cardiology Fellowship, Baylor
Hannah Hong Private Practice, Los Angeles
Tamara Horwich Cardiology-STAR Fellowship, UCLA
Sara Hurvitz Chief Resident, UCLA
Gloria Kim Faculty, UCLA
Malena Law Faculty, UCLA
Robert Lin Gastroenterology Fellowship, UCSD
Michael Mendoza Gastroenterology Fellowship, UCLA
Jason Merritt Nephrology Fellowship
Ray Rahimzadegan Cardiology Fellowship, Kaiser Sunset
Allegra Rich Geriatrics Fellowship, UCLA
Archana Sadhu Endocrinology Fellowship, UCLA
Michael Shehata Cardiology Fellowship, Cedars-Sinai
Lisa Skinner Chief Resident, UCLA
Daphne Stewart Hematology-Oncology Fellowship, UCLA
Andrea Sullivan Private Practice, San Diego
Sukhjit Takhar Emergency Medicine Residency, UCLA
Douglas Tong Chief Resident, UCLA
Doan-Trang Tran Gastroenterology Fellowship, UCLA
Andrew Watson Cardiology-STAR Fellowship, UCLA
James Wilson Nephrology Fellowship, UCLA
Daniel Wu Private Practice, Honolulu, HI
Denise Yun Kaiser Foundation, San Francisco

What do you folks think? I'm obviously concerned that everyone's staying at UCLA...again, that may be a good thing or a bad thing...the cards/GI fellowship via STAR only worries me too. A lot of ppl seem to go into private practice--more so here than most other academic programs. Perhaps it's the focus on ambulatory medicine in the R2 and R3 yrs that promotes this...or would you think that the ambulatory focus actually weakens the UCLA's resident chances for fellowship elsewhere?

again, i was impressed with the program though...not sure yet where to rank them, but at this point, probably in top 3.

 

[emmitfitzhume]

Thanks for the fellowship list for UCLA, I don't know why they would not give that info out at the interview. I agree that there seems to be a lot of people staying, not alwasys a bad thing, but will probably not see the same list in future years for GI and cards because of STAR. As far as GI for this years third year residents, one resident told me they went 1/4 matching GI spots, I would verify this if you can. I agree, UCLA is still a strong program and has a big name, excellent research ops, if you want them. The STAR system is a drawback if you don't feel like staying in your fellowship for 4+ years and are not totally sold on staying in academics, and even if you are for that matter. I think for someone who knows they want to do a fellowship going into residency, especially in GI or cards, it would be comforting to know that you a least have a decent chance at staying at your home institution. At UCLA, this is probably not the case if you are not thrilled about star.
I agree that UCLA is a strong program, the strongest, well, I guess that depends on what your criteria are. I think there are stronger clinical training programs as stated earlier, Harbor being one that certainly opens up many doors for fellowships as evidenced by their stellar track record.
Southern Hick, you said you were pleasantly surprised by UCLA. What did you mean by that? I personally went in with high hopes of the program based on their excellent reputation and came away a little disappointed. Maybe this was a case of different expectations, or at least inflated on my part.

 

[Southern Hick]

emmit--

i can't exactly place my finger on why i was pleasantly surprised...it's more of a gut feeling, and at this point, it's probably mostly gut feeling that's going to dictate my ROL. first, i really liked the people there. that will go a long way. second, nice location--urban, major city is what i'm looking for. i went in expecting to hate LA, but left with the sense that i can do this for 3 yrs or so. maybe not 6 yrs, but we'll see. btw, the dept of medicine is shifting base of operations to santa monica rather than stay at westwood. third, i actually like the ambulatory emphasis of the curriculum in the R2 and R3 years. I think I learn best in 1:1 interactions with faculty, and tackling the subspecialties during R2/R3 this way sounds most appealing. fourth, the name and access to the ucla campus. the research faculty is great. for a moment, i was worried that UCLA might be another Yale in that it lives on the name of the undergrad/graduate institution, but the that is not the case. fifth, the new bldg and the prospect of a chartless system...some places already have this, but at least the new bldg is scheduled to open sooner or later (more likely our PGY3 yr). so i went in with rather lowish expectations, and left feeling positive. i agree high expectations will not serve you well here, esp in comparison to a place like stanford or ucsf.

that said, there are downsides: the facility ain't the greatest. kind of disturbed by the ultra-small ICUs. intern yr is still tough despite that wacko call schedule they have. we may actually never see the new bldg. i want to see more fellowship match lists from previous yrs and this past yr. and yes, i did hear about this yr's PGY2s not matching into GI etc.

so it'll be an interesting month up ahead...it'll be a continuous gut-check, and comparison to the other places on the list.

best of luck.

 

[bariume]

Originally posted by Southern Hick
i want to see more fellowship match lists from previous yrs and this past yr. and yes, i did hear about this yr's PGY2s not matching into GI etc.

I dont know about the R3s, but I do know that 1/4 of the UCLA PGY2's did match in GI this year. The other 3 are strong candidates and should get positions by next year. Several of the more senior residents got better GI positions by year 3. The year prior, the R3's got a GI fellowship at Brigham and Women's, and the other at USC.

I think part of the reason for the R2's not matching well is due to the high competition in California and also because of the intense front loaded curriculum which makes it difficult for interns to beef up their resume by the time the R2 year begins. GI applications as you know start in July each year, and the interview dates have been coming up earlier and earlier.

Some of the housestaff have lamented that they do not feel the support of the faculty when they apply for fellowship. However, I don't know if this is true or not in reality. Like most departments in other hospitals, there are your awesome supportive attendings who go to bat for you, and there are your so-so ones... Some of the attendings in the upper ranks are interested mainly in those interested in STAR, for aforementioned reasons.

 

[madcadaver]

Is anybody else baffled by the fact that interns at UCLA don't even have a continuity clinic? Apparently too busy keeping transplant patients alive in the hospital. I can't even imagine why anyone would want to do a prelim year there. However, the R2s and R3s did seem really happy (although I would be too after finishing that intern year).

I am finding it hard to decide which to rank higher- UCLA or Harbor. Olive View is up there too.

 

[Southern Hick]

did anyone speak to/know of current UCLA residents who will be doing their fellowships (GI or cards) on the east coast? i met quite a number of residents from the east coast...thx

 

[emmitfitzhume]

Hick,
Most of te residents I talked to at UCLA said that they and their fellow residents applied for and got interviews outside of So Cal but elected to stay in the area, even ones originally from back east or midwest. I got the impression that if you wanted to go back east, you wouldn't have a problem if you "apply broadly" as one resident put it. In fact, I think UCLA may actually have a better reputaion outside California than it does inside. Also, I got the impression that many of the people applying for fellowships didn't "apply broadly" because they wanted to stay in So Cal. All this are my impressions, so take it with a grain of salt. I can't remember hearing about anyone specifically matching back east though. All this would be so much easier if they would simply give you the list of where the last three classes of residents went after their training like every other top program on the west coast has done. But of course, in the grand scheme of things, if you work hard and are commited early to getting that fellowship spot, you will probably be fine at any of these programs. I think it comes down to the individual, not the program you trained at.

 

[emmitfitzhume]

Originally posted by madcadaver
Is anybody else baffled by the fact that interns at UCLA don't even have a continuity clinic? Apparently too busy keeping transplant patients alive in the hospital. I can't even imagine why anyone would want to do a prelim year there. However, the R2s and R3s did seem really happy (although I would be too after finishing that intern year).


I am finding it hard to decide which to rank higher- UCLA or Harbor. Olive View is up there too.

I agree, I think you would have to be a glutton for punishment to want to do a prelim year at UCLA. The program is frontloaded and they don't try to hide it, the residents openly talk about how great it is to have finsihed that first year now on to a ligher 2nd and 3rd year. Doing a "malignant" intern year as many of the housestaff called it and then not continuing on in the rest of the program would be brutal, like putting in all the work and then not reaping the benefits of all your hard work. Probably how many of the interns felt who were the class right before the new 80 hour work week regs came into action, they got the worst of both worlds having to have tough intern years and then pick up the slack for the new class who had to meet the new regs. I guess you would be one well trained intern after a prelim year at UCLA, but most prelim canditates I have met have this fairly low on their priority list.

I think Harbor and UCLA are different kinds of programs so it will probably come down to what you are looking for. Autonomy is a major difference between the programs, fellow and attending driven teams vs. more resident decision making. Exposure to tertiary care pts, referrals vs. undiagnosed pathology walking in your door and getting to do the initial workup. The program sizes are different, patient populations are different. County hopital and all the frustration it brings vs. University/VA/private/some county exposure. Variety of training sites vs. essentially one site. Different research oppurtunites, name recognition of program. Obviouisly it is an indiviual decision that will invlove a different process for all of us. I think for me, gut feeling will be the biggest factor of all, and the decision for me was quite clear after having visited both sites.

 

[emmitfitzhume]

While we are discussing CA programs, was wondering if any of you had any thoughts on Stanford. Briefly, here are mine.

+s:Huge name, awesome fellowhip placement, especially if you want to stay, pretty bright housestaff, very friendly and supportive program, great PD, appears to be a fairly "cushy" program, very happy residents, incredible facility, big faculty names, research ops, every test, procedure, etc. is at your disposal, Valley and VA hospitals in addition to SH. Well compensated I have heard, although not seen official salaries.
Attendings seem very approachable and laid back.

-s😛alo Alto, fairly boring and very expensive and just far enough from SF that you really couldn't do the daily commute, which is also very $$$, private docs-not a big fan of having to round with multiple attendings and having them basically just tell you what orders to write, kind of cuts down on the whole learning experience, very top down run services, residents have little autonomy at Stanford Hospital IMO. A lot of transfers and tertiary care, both a plus and a minus I guess. Rumors of not enough pts in the area.

Overall, I think it is a great program, maybe just a little too much spoon feeding for me and light on autonomy, I go back and forth on the matter. Would love to hear other people's thoughts.

 

[gimmedog]

Interviewed for prelim at Stanford and was dazzled by the facilities, but the residents weren't inspiring. Maybe they talked a bit too much about the perks (3000 moving stipend, "salary is bigger than UCSF", facilities, "never have to do such and such..."etc) and came off as kinda lazy. They weren't that impressive at morning report either, but maybe it was due to the large contingent of black-suited applicants. Strangely, I ran into 2 other people who interviewed there at different times and they had the same impression without any provocation from me. I haven't heard that Stanford was low on pts, but heard that about the VA.

All that being said, I loved the PD--he seemed to be very dedicated to the residents and the quality of their experience. And the residents were indeed very happy.

No disrespect for Stanford residents, that was just the impression from interview day.

 

[nyc_girl]

i had a great impression leaving stanford, but came away with some reservations. i also was not that impressed by the residents and thought morning report was a little dull. also, the idea of spending most of your time in a private hospital is a little unsettling for me, because i agree that you learn best when you have the most control/ responsibility for your decisions.

but i have to agree- loved the PD, place, and surrounding area. i think that if you are fellowship-bound it is an excellent place to train.

any other opinions?

 

[cbc]

yeah, question: what is your boards score? and what do you think it's the most important component of your med school to get your interview? thanks!!

Originally posted by nyc_girl
i had a great impression leaving stanford, but came away with some reservations. i also was not that impressed by the residents and thought morning report was a little dull. also, the idea of spending most of your time in a private hospital is a little unsettling for me, because i agree that you learn best when you have the most control/ responsibility for your decisions.

but i have to agree- loved the PD, place, and surrounding area. i think that if you are fellowship-bound it is an excellent place to train.

any other opinions?

 

[madcadaver]

Originally posted by emmitfitzhume

I think Harbor and UCLA are different kinds of programs so it will probably come down to what you are looking for. Autonomy is a major difference between the programs, fellow and attending driven teams vs. more resident decision making. Exposure to tertiary care pts, referrals vs. undiagnosed pathology walking in your door and getting to do the initial workup. The program sizes are different, patient populations are different. County hopital and all the frustration it brings vs. University/VA/private/some county exposure. Variety of training sites vs. essentially one site. Different research oppurtunites, name recognition of program. Obviouisly it is an indiviual decision that will invlove a different process for all of us. I think for me, gut feeling will be the biggest factor of all, and the decision for me was quite clear after having visited both sites.

Emmit,
Good summary of the differences, the programs clearly have different pros and cons. I thought it would become very clear to me during my interview season whether I wanted a county or university setting. Still can't decide. It may come down to the important point you mentioned that at UCLA you get significant rotation time at county, VA, and private hospitals, unlike the one-site Harbor program. Variety is good, I think?
Good luck with your list
MC

 

[scrub monkey]

i'm having a tough time deciding between ucla and harbor as well. the 2 programs actually do seem very different. both programs work their residents. interns at ucla seem to be in more pain, but i never even got a chance to talk to any harbor interns, so it'd be tough to compare. definitely more scut at harbor. i like ucla's paperless system. harbor's patient population seems a bit more attractive (indigent, undiagnosed vs. ucla's complicated, critical, transplant patients) harbors fellowship placement seems to be even stronger than ucla's. again, not sure since ucla doesn't post their list. this year's poor gi placement at ucla is most likely due to the r2's applying only to southern california. ucla still has a huge national name, while harbor is barely known outside of california. i thought it would be an easier call. but we'll see. i'll probably change my mind a dozen more times.

 

[cbc]

for ucla, what step1 score might one need to obtain an interview, and what do you think the average step1 for residents is?

 

[fscmd]

I am done interviewing and need to come up with a rank list. I am leaning towards Loma linda. Anyone got advice on how to rank these cali programs(Categorical): Loma Linda, USC, UCSF Fresno, and Kaiser SF. Any info would be much appreicated

 

[scrub monkey]

of the places you listed, the only one i saw for myself was usc.

i think your rank list is going to depend on your goals.

if you're interested in primary care and living a reasonable life during residency, i would put usc at the bottom of the list.

but if you're interested in a more academic career, with possible subspecialty training, then usc would probably be near the top. usc residents seem very strong. mostly because they seem to work their tails off.

of the programs you listed, i think only usc and loma linda have fellowship programs.

 

[rgizmo]

CBC

I would guess you need at least a 230 on step 1 to be invitited for an interview there. The average for interns there I would guess to be 230 + or - 5. This is just based on what I've heard of most people who interview there. It also depends obviously on class rank and perhaps caliber of medical school.

 

[cbc]

Thanks rgizmo.