Interview step 1 cut-offs GenSurg

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Hearos

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Hey guys- I did a search, but i couldn't find a thread answering this question. Does anyone know if there are Step 1 cut-offs for getting interviews at gen surg programs? Do they use the 3 digit or 2 digit score? Thanks!
 
Below what score would it be considered a waste of money to apply to university programs? Assuming the applicant is otherwise standard with good clerkship grades and a basic science pub or two.
 
SplenoMegastar said:
Below what score would it be considered a waste of money to apply to university programs? Assuming the applicant is otherwise standard with good clerkship grades and a basic science pub or two.
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There are no hard and fast rules.

Some would say nothing below 220, others higher and others still lower. Not all university programs are as selective as some community programs.

Apply if you are interested.
 
Many university programs have a soft cutoff. I didn't do so hot on step 1, took step 2 early and did quite well. Got interviews at several very strong university programs, no questions asked.
 
I got a 200 on Step I and a 262 on Step II - will my Step I score be a barrier to solid academic programs or does my Step II make up for it?
 
hobofunk said:
I got a 200 on Step I and a 262 on Step II - will my Step I score be a barrier to solid academic programs or does my Step II make up for it?
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No, your Step 1 score will be a big barrier. Still, the much-improved Step 2 score doesn't hurt.

If you're an IMG, I would brace yourself for a difficult interview season. If you're an allopathic MD, you have a much better chance.
 
Anyone else have any experiences with step 1 cut-offs? I got a 2-digit score of "90", and I just want to know if this will automatically cut me out of a lot of interviews. Thanks.
 
Hearos said:
Anyone else have any experiences with step 1 cut-offs? I got a 2-digit score of "90", and I just want to know if this will automatically cut me out of a lot of interviews. Thanks.
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Please tell us what the two digit score of 90 translates to. Programs usually use the 3 digit score to evaluate candidates.
 
hobofunk said:
I got a 200 on Step I and a 262 on Step II - will my Step I score be a barrier to solid academic programs or does my Step II make up for it?
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Agree with SLUser...most of the academic programs are going to have a minimum of 220 or more. Scores have been going up every year and tables are available of average scores for accepted applicants at NRMP.

The Step 2 will help but remember programs are looking to compare you across the board to other applicants. Everyone has taken Step 1, many applicants have not taken Step 2, thus while your score is much improved, they/faculty don't know really what it means in comparison.
 
A "90"=218. I looked at Mt. Sinai's general surgery residency, and they state their cut-off is a "90" 2-digit score. The 2009 charting outcomes said the gen surg ave. was 226, and the 2007 charting outcomes said the ave. was 222. A cut-off of 220 seems a little high- 36% of accepted gen surg residents in 2009 had <220. But I don't know...
 
a good amount of those gsurg residents probably didn't go to academic programs. my institution is not a high powered academic program, although it is a university program but the only time they will look at students with less than a 220 is if they are a student from our home program. I'm sure many of the community programs don't have cut offs. but I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule out there (even though there isn't a rule 🙂 )
 
Hearos said:
A "90"=218. I looked at Mt. Sinai's general surgery residency, and they state their cut-off is a "90" 2-digit score. The 2009 charting outcomes said the gen surg ave. was 226, and the 2007 charting outcomes said the ave. was 222. A cut-off of 220 seems a little high- 36% of accepted gen surg residents in 2009 had <220. But I don't know...
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As noted above, many programs don't have cut-offs. Therefore, a certain number of residents will have lower scores.

Those that do, commonly use 220...its been that way for years. Some actually adhere to it, and others use it to deter a certain number of applications.

YMMMV.
 
Does anybody know when GS residency programs generally finishing offering interview to students? The reason I ask is because the step 2 score has been delayed for those taking it in mid-august to mid september or so; where scores will be in by early Oct. and I was hoping my step 2 score could possibly be used in the screening process.

Thanks.
 
Tsutsugamushi said:
Does anybody know when GS residency programs generally finishing offering interview to students? The reason I ask is because the step 2 score has been delayed for those taking it in mid-august to mid september or so; where scores will be in by early Oct. and I was hoping my step 2 score could possibly be used in the screening process.

Thanks.
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Depends on the program but some places continue to interview into the first week of February. I'd say that most give you at least a 2 week notice, but the vast majority of interview invites will be done by early to mid January.
 
Thanks for the reply. So in essence, it would'nt be too late to submit my step 2 score in early Oct. for interview screening, is that correct?
 
yeah.... hard cutoff... that's the burning question. I'm in a similar situation -- scored just below 200 on step 1, increased my score by 30 points on step 2. I have honors in 2 of my 6 core clerkships (not in either medicine or surgery), i have very strong extracurriculars and community service, and a fair amount of research experience but no publications, should have several strong letters (one from a program director). I'm worried my application will get trashed before anyone even looks at my CV or letters.

Loyola states on their website that their minimum for consideration is >200 on either step 1 or 2 on the first attempt, which offers me some consolsation. But the new charting outcomes is freaking scary. 2 applicants for every spot! My student affairs dean keeps assuring me i'll get plenty of interviews, which he bases on his historical experience with a rather large N.

UIC is having a residency fair tomorrow, apparently a lot of midwest programs will be represnted at it, i'm going to see if i can get the nitty gritty on who has hard cutoffs and what kind of numbers they look for.

good luck all.
 
Exactly- the hard cut-offs are what I want to know. If 220 is the hard cut off at most programs- then damn... I talked to a residency board member at a top 10 ortho program and he told me their hard cut off is 220.
Also, according to charting outcomes, the ratio of us seniors to the number of gen surg spots is .8
 
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My experience has been that a Step I score below 220 does not independently eliminate a candidate from acceptance at even the top academic general surgery programs.
 
some progs actually state in emails after they receive your app that they want 220 + on step 1 step2 and a pass on cs, and discard apps that dont have this.
 
Which programs specifically have hard cut offs? Are these just rumors or do you guys have first hand experience? It's not very convincing when not one post has given an actual example.
 
Hearos said:
Which programs specifically have hard cut offs? Are these just rumors or do you guys have first hand experience? It's not very convincing when not one post has given an actual example.
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Most will something like "while we do not have a minimum USMLE score requirement, our program is competitive and most individuals successful in getting an interview/being accepted, have a score greater than X..."

But here are some with minimums:

http://www.stjohn.org/ProvidenceGME/ResidencyPrograms/GeneralSurgery/Details/

http://www.marshfieldclinic.org/residents/?page=generalsurgeryapplications

http://www.mmcsurgery.com/appreq.html

http://www.exempla.org/body_gme.cfm?id=1066

http://www.iupui.edu/~neurosur/Residency.html (NSgy but figured I'd include it)

http://www.cchseast.org/GeneralSurgery/tabid/1167/Default.aspx

http://residency.bisurgery.org/

http://www.utcomchatt.org/subpage.php?pageId=617

http://www.columbiasurgery.org/residency/faq.html
 
Thank you winged scapula, but none of those programs require >220 (most require 200), which is the magical number many people are floating around for a hard cut off. The highest is columbia and they only require a 90 two digit score, which is less than a 220. I'm sure there are some programs with hard cut offs of >220, but I doubt most programs or even most academic programs require this. If I'm incorrect, please correct me with examples.
 
Sorry if I am the bearer of bad news, but looking at the Columbia website, it says that the step I cutoff is 90th PERCENTILE, which we all know that the two digit number is absolutely not. I think that the avg step I score was what a 223 and the sd was 20 something. Without actually calculating z scores, it would automatically have to be something like 1.5 SDs over (these numbers are very vague recollections of my stats class from 2 years ago)...so guess to even be considered for Columbia gs you need a 250+

unless hey meant 2 digit score but wrote percentile which is definitely possible but questionable in liklihood.
 
E92 said:
Sorry if I am the bearer of bad news, but looking at the Columbia website, it says that the step I cutoff is 90th PERCENTILE, which we all know that the two digit number is absolutely not. I think that the avg step I score was what a 223 and the sd was 20 something. Without actually calculating z scores, it would automatically have to be something like 1.5 SDs over (these numbers are very vague recollections of my stats class from 2 years ago)...so guess to even be considered for Columbia gs you need a 250+

unless hey meant 2 digit score but wrote percentile which is definitely possible but questionable in liklihood.
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I'd be willing to bet they meant 90 2-digit. If you look at the NRMP data, only about 60 AMGs applied in general surgery with a board score over 250. Columbia may be selective, but they aren't THAT selective.
 
I agree with southernIM, the NRMP does not release official "percentiles" and I doubt any residency program would go through a process of converting all their applicant's 3 digit or 2 digit scores into an unofficial "percentile." The programs I've looked at either say 200, 80, or passing...so far. Also, if 220 is the hard cutoff for so many programs, shouldn't there be a lot more specific examples and be the norm rather than the exception? I just want to know about the programs that if you don't have a >220, then you are automatically rejected for an interview.
 
Hearos said:
Thank you winged scapula, but none of those programs require >220 (most require 200), which is the magical number many people are floating around for a hard cut off. The highest is columbia and they only require a 90 two digit score, which is less than a 220. I'm sure there are some programs with hard cut offs of >220, but I doubt most programs or even most academic programs require this. If I'm incorrect, please correct me with examples.
Click to expand...

There is a tool called "Google".

I used it to find the links above in less than 1 second and it took me less than 5 minutes to scroll through the results to find the ones I posted.

There were pages and pages of more results.

I suspect that the reason we've said "220" is because, even in the days of surgical unpopularity, this was the number that was commonly used as a cut-off. Perhaps programs are becoming more loathe to actually publish what their cut-off is, but rest assured that most programs do some filtering by the Step 1 score. There is no centralized database with this information so you'll have to do some searching or calling programs yourself.
 
Winged Scapula said:
There is a tool called "Google".

I used it to find the links above in less than 1 second and it took me less than 5 minutes to scroll through the results to find the ones I posted.

There were pages and pages of more results.

I suspect that the reason we've said "220" is because, even in the days of surgical unpopularity, this was the number that was commonly used as a cut-off. Perhaps programs are becoming more loathe to actually publish what their cut-off is, but rest assured that most programs do some filtering by the Step 1 score. There is no centralized database with this information so you'll have to do some searching or calling programs yourself.
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"Commonly used" by whom? If you guys don't know of any actual programs with a hard cut off of 220, then it's just conjecture. What is the point of an online forum if I could easily find the answer myself using google? I started this thread because I know progams often don't publish their cut-offs, thus I ask if students know from their interview/application experiences. I have actually googled quite a few programs, and all of them require a pass, 200, or an 80- none of them openly require 220. My doubt arises because since the ave step 1 for gen surg is 220ish, then automatically a significant proportion of accepted students in gen surg would have been hypothetically denied an interview from all these programs that use this "common" cut-off, and to think that all the accepted students with <220 went to community programs is bogus.

I don't care what the cut-off is, I just want hard facts.
 
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yeah when i saw that my immediate assumption was that a 90th percentile cutoff seemed a bit over the top. but on the other hand i thought to myself 'residency interviews have been going on for decades now and i'm sure someone would have brought this to their attention, be it from a medical student thinking of applying or whanot'

i guess all hope is not yet lost for those who are applying to columbia. not to mean to hijack the thread, but has anyone heard about how the program is there nowadays? scutwork.com seems like its defunct so any first or second hand descriptions of resident life within the last few years would be greatly appreciated.
 
E92 said:
yeah when i saw that my immediate assumption was that a 90th percentile cutoff seemed a bit over the top. but on the other hand i thought to myself 'residency interviews have been going on for decades now and i'm sure someone would have brought this to their attention, be it from a medical student thinking of applying or whanot'

i guess all hope is not yet lost for those who are applying to columbia. not to mean to hijack the thread, but has anyone heard about how the program is there nowadays? scutwork.com seems like its defunct so any first or second hand descriptions of resident life within the last few years would be greatly appreciated.
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Please start your own thread.
 
Hearos said:
"Commonly used" by whom? If you guys don't know of any actual programs with a hard cut off of 220, then it's just conjecture.
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Ok, when I applied for residency way back when, U of Colorado and St Joe's specifically had cut-offs of 220. There were several others that did as well. DoctorJay came out and told you above that his program uses 220 as a cut-off currently.

But 220 was never meant for you to imply that was a common cut-off. You asked and I said some say 220, some say lower, some say higher.

What is the point of an online forum if I could easily find the answer myself using google?
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The point is that the information IS available at many programs and that the point of SDN is not to provide you information that you can find elsewhere.

What does your attending say when you ask, "what are the common post-operative complications of this procedure?" Does he say, "x, y and z" or does he say, "why don't you look that up yourself and report back to us in the morning?"

The fact of the matter is that in THIS forum, we do not tolerate *well* users who:

1) ask questions which can be found on-line or by talking to their own faculty members (who are going to have much more relevant information than we are)
2) get huffy when they don't get the answer they like

I realize you are a new user and probably don't recognize the culture of SDN and this forum. But its pretty much the same here as IRL. My advice to you is that you ask your attendings for which programs you'll be competitive at. They know you better than any of us here and probably come from a broader group of programs than we do.

I started this thread because I know progams often don't publish their cut-offs, thus I ask if students know from their interview/application experiences. I have actually googled quite a few programs, and all of them require a pass, 200, or an 80- none of them openly require 220. My doubt arises because since the ave step 1 for gen surg is 220ish, then automatically a significant proportion of accepted students in gen surg would have been hypothetically denied an interview from all these programs that use this "common" cut-off, and to think that all the accepted students with <220 went to community programs is bogus.
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But it doesn't matter what a program says their cut off is because the vast majority of times its used to weed out candidate who are wildly unacceptable. No one ever said that you couldn't match into surgery or a particular program with a score lower than their cut-off. I matched into my program with a score ostensibly less than their cut-off (which was published at the time). Of course, it was only 1 point lower, but all the same, it was lower.

The reason 220 was used was that few programs ever even used to post a cut-off but those that did often used 220. Outside of the two Colorado programs I don't recall which ones they were.
 
Hearos said:
Anyone else have any experiences with step 1 cut-offs? I got a 2-digit score of "90"...
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Hearos said:
Which programs specifically have hard cut offs? Are these just rumors or do you guys have first hand experience? It's not very convincing when not one post has given an actual example.
Click to expand...
Hearos said:
What is the point of an online forum if I could easily find the answer myself using google?
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Hearos said:
I don't care what the cut-off is, I just want hard facts.
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Hearos said:
Please start your own thread.
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Whether it is true or not, please operate under the impression that Wash U's cutoff is above your score and don't waste the money applying. I want to limit the risk that one of my interns next year behaves the way you do...🙄

Winged Scapula said:
There is a tool called "Google".
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You forgot to use my favorite website. 😉
 
I have a friend that is a resident at Columbia. He told me that the various aspects of your application get scored, and then there is a composite score used to rank people. If you have a 220, you will get a lower score in that category than someone with a 260. But you might score higher in clerkship marks etc and get more points there.

This is just word of mouth, but gives you a sense of how some places might work with the step 1 score.

With regards to the program there--my friend is happy. He is an intense guy, and I think he fits in well there. I think it is a more traditional program than others are. I don't really know much more than that but one thing I have figured out at this point is that you have to take everything you read/see/hear about a program with a grain of salt. There are rumours, there are the 'way things used to be', and there are the things about a program that will make it a good fit for you. I am going to carefully consider the programs that I interview at based on my personal needs and career goals. There are places that people told me crazy rumours about but then I have friends in those programs that are happy. So what I have chosen to do is apply to the programs that I am interested in, and see what happens. If they filter me for my usmle step 1 score, I guess it wasn't meant to be. I don't think it is such a big disappointment to spend the $8 to find out. But if a program published a cutoff on their website and I didn't meet it, I would obviously not apply. There is not going to be some magic SDN list that will tell you each of the programs' cut offs, if they exist but are not published. And even if there were cutoffs last year, what's to say that it is the same this year? Would you not apply just based on that? I went through my application with several surgeon mentors and also went over my list of programs to be realistic about where I will be competitive. I trust those people, partly because of their experience, partly because they have seen my application in close detail and know what I have to offer. That is probably the safest thing you can do now, if possible...

🙂 Treg
 
SocialistMD said:
Whether it is true or not, please operate under the impression that Wash U's cutoff is above your score and don't waste the money applying. I want to limit the risk that one of my interns next year behaves the way you do...🙄


You forgot to use my favorite website. 😉
Click to expand...

I didn't forget...just couldn't remember what it was! Thanks.
 
Hearos said:
...require 220. My doubt arises because since the ave step 1 for gen surg is 220ish, then automatically a significant proportion of accepted students in gen surg would have been hypothetically denied an interview from all these programs that use this "common" cut-off, ...I just want hard facts.
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You are correct, a significant proportion of applicants ARE denied and/or filtered. This is surgery. The "combine esq" (i.e. like going pro-football) type process to get in and then through the program is not always fun. Those of us that have done it did so for the end game with an understanding....It's not always "fair" and that is life. Suck it up if you want it.

If you want hard facts, go to an adviser or look for published data. An on-line anonymous forum does not come close to being a reliable source of "hard facts".

JAD
 
E92 said:
yeah when i saw that my immediate assumption was that a 90th percentile cutoff seemed a bit over the top. but on the other hand i thought to myself 'residency interviews have been going on for decades now and i'm sure someone would have brought this to their attention, be it from a medical student thinking of applying or whanot'
Click to expand...

A substantial number of people think the 2 digit is a percentile. And I doubt many med students applying to Columbia are going to be pointing out errors on the website during their interview day - NOT the way to make a good impression.
 
Hearos said:
I'm sorry as I have clearly rubbed some people the wrong way, but my intent was to start a thread similar to this one for ortho (http://www.orthogate.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3589&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45), but for general surgery. Instead of a productive thread like the link I provided, I don't understand why residents who have gone through this process and are in a position to help med students, have decided to make personal attacks on me (real classy socialistMD)...I would have expected you guys to be more mature or at least not reply if you didn't have anything constructive to add.
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Seeing how "classy" you were behaving when not receiving the exact answer you sought from your self-imposed go-fers in the surgery forum (please see your exchange with WS, who did your google search for you, gave you exactly what you were seeking, yet found her work unappreciated by you because you interpreted the websites she posted as "conjecture"), I thought you might "get it" if I brought it to your level. Take it as constructive criticism for your future (please note, I didn't reply until you became belligerent, as I didn't know of any cutoffs that were not mentioned already). You continued to ask the same question over and over and over again, getting more and more agitated (and irritating) with people who were trying to help you when you didn't get the answers you wanted. Don't take this attitude to your residency or your life will be miserable (and, possibly, your career short lived [see current threads in the general residency forum for examples]). I can guarantee if you acted at my program the way you have on this thread, you would find yourself with few friends and little help accomplishing anything personal and unrelated to patient care (i.e. a lot of "sorry, but I can't trade so you can go on that vacation" etc...).

Don't be a d---, especially to people who are trying to help you and who may play a part in your matching at a program you like. These forums are not as anonymous as one might like to believe...
 
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I honestly have no idea how the heck this thread crashed and burned compared to what I hoped it to be. I thought the ortho thread was helpful, so I thought it would be nice for us all to have a summary of such data for gen surg. I know I was short and agitated in this thread...think of it as regret for what this thread could have been haha. Sorry guys for my part in the death of this thread.
 
Hearos said:
I honestly have no idea how the heck this thread crashed and burned compared to what I hoped it to be.
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Are you serious? Do you lack even minimal insight?

It's because when multiple people took the time to try to help you out, you were unappreciative, abrasive, and rude.
 
Geez- I already acknowledged I was short, agitated, and yes, a pain in the ass. I lost my temper on an online forum--my bad. I also said I was sorry for my behavior, and I am. What more do you guys want? 😳
 
Trying to get back on track to retain the usefulness of this post. To give you an overall example of how most academic surgical programs function, I will use my program as an example. An average academic gen surg program has about 8 residents per year (avg 6-12). For these few spots, they will receive about 100 applications per spot. I believe that MGH still receives the most applications (~1400?). Anyway since no one has the time or the money to sift through all of these applications one by one, they use filters and score applications. Once the scores are tallied, they start offering interviews to the people with the highest scores and then work their way down the list until they have filled all of their interview spots (which is why it is imperative to apply as early as possible)
Most programs use the following criteria to score applications (this is just a rough example)
Step I score: >220=5pts , >230 = 10pts, >240 = 15pts
AOA: yes=5pts, no=0pts
Surgery Clerkship: honors=5pts, pass=0pts
Research: published=10pts, conducted research=5pts, no research=0pts

As I mentioned this is a rough appreciation on how it is done. The only ways to get an interview if you are not on the top of the list is to have done a Sub-I and have done well, be a student at the med school affiliated with the surgery program, or have someone who knows someone call.

This is the reason why when you apply to high powered academic programs, you end up seeing all of the same people over and over again.
 
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