interview with psychoanalyst...

[bunx]

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I recently had an odd experience on the interview trail. I was interviewing at a program and up until this particular interview, I was really excited about the program and thought it would be a good fit for me. Then I interviewed with a psychoanalyst. I had been warned that these interviews are 'strange', but I honestly felt this interview bordered on unprofessional. The interviewer grilled me for about twenty minutes on my relationship with my parents. I was uncomfortable since my relationship with my folks is not great, and I *really* did not want to get into the whole thing with a complete stranger on an interview for residency of all things. I tried to politely steer the conversation away from this, but he was persistent in an almost hostile way. Then I think he asked me blatantly inappropriate questions such as if I plan to have children in residency and if I've had therapy before. All in all, it was a really uncomfortable, unprofessional, and stressful interview.

My question for the forum - is this type of interview with a psychoanalyst typical? If so, why do they do this? And should I be turned off of the program that I otherwise really liked because of this? Granted, who knows if the program will want me since honestly I think that was the worse interview of my life! I've just been fuming since I just feel that the whole thing was really unprofessional. I've even been doubting choosing psychiatry!

Any thoughts?

 

[Danica]

Ha ha

Welcome to the club.🙂

 

[Doc Samson]

Ahh Columbia. So many memories, so few fond.

 

[Faebinder]

I had that happen to me on one of my interviews. Correction, 2 of my interviews, but you sound a lot more defensive about your past. My take on it is this: These guys are going to be your closest mentors/friends for 4 solid years, they really wanna know what sort of a person you are. It's to your advantage to be honest and revealing because if they find that you clash with them on multiple levels, they will give you a hard time in the four years anyway.

On the other hand, if you are struggling to get interviews and are at risk of not matching, then this is a problem. Always put up the optimistic side of the story, I know it's hard but interviewers are turned off by negative vibes. They will sense too much of an emotional baggage if you dont add a happy side to it.

"Yes my dad beat up my mom, but eventually he got help and now he has finished therapy and is doing better." (Of course after saying this, all the sphinctors in your body are spasming but try not to show it.)

Come ranking day... put them at the bottom.

 

[toby jones]

Hmm. I'd be ambivalent about the interview to be sure - but I'm not sure whether it is bordering on the unprofessional... Not sure... Similar questions come up in philosophy job talks, you see. People ask questions like 'how do you think you will find the locale to your liking?' (when you are applying for a job in Arkansus and you are from NYC). And of course the question about whether you plan to have some time off to have children. I guess... They can but ask.

We are typically told to reherse polite replies to those kinds of questions. Basically... See them as assessing your social skills. Your ability to monitor appropriateness of self disclosure in an intense setting lol.

Maybe... The person was assessing your ability (and / or willingness) to engage in self reflection. Sounds like the department would be placing some value in that (since it came up in the interview setting). Perhaps you are more like Spitzer where you don't value (and frankly don't understand) the value in all that - in which case... Perhaps the interview signalled that the program will not be to your tastes...

Perhaps...

 

[MBK2003]

Perhaps you are more like Spitzer where you don't value (and frankly don't understand) the value in all that - in which case...

But oddly enough, even Dr. Spitzer completed psychoanalytic training.

I suggest running your concerns by a resident whom you met that day, in a casual, "hey I was grilled about my issues with my parents by one of the interviewers, is that typical for a day at your program?"

In my adult training I had 2 analytic supervisors who were overly interested in whether I was in therapy, whether I was discussing my patients in my therapy, and ways that my relationship with my spouse may have affected my countertransference. It got uncomfortable with one, so I confronted him and the supervision moved beyond my issues. I think it's analyst-dependent because I had 2 other psychoanalyst supervisors who supervised in ways that maintained the focus on the patient and gave me room to examine my countertransference without making me feel like my personal life and experiences were being dissected by a supervisor.

Even those of us who don't plan to be analysts and are strong proponents of short-term evidence-based therapies have the capacity for self-reflection and to understand how certain patients can be hitting our blind spots and buttons based upon our own personal experiences. If you can frame the analyst interview in this light, you may be able to step back from the fray and really consider whether the program is a fit and to consider ways to respond to this line of questioning in future interviews.

 

[Psychintern2006]

I recently had an odd experience on the interview trail. I was interviewing at a program and up until this particular interview, I was really excited about the program and thought it would be a good fit for me. Then I interviewed with a psychoanalyst. I had been warned that these interviews are 'strange', but I honestly felt this interview bordered on unprofessional. The interviewer grilled me for about twenty minutes on my relationship with my parents. I was uncomfortable since my relationship with my folks is not great, and I *really* did not want to get into the whole thing with a complete stranger on an interview for residency of all things. I tried to politely steer the conversation away from this, but he was persistent in an almost hostile way. Then I think he asked me blatantly inappropriate questions such as if I plan to have children in residency and if I've had therapy before. All in all, it was a really uncomfortable, unprofessional, and stressful interview.

My question for the forum - is this type of interview with a psychoanalyst typical? If so, why do they do this? And should I be turned off of the program that I otherwise really liked because of this? Granted, who knows if the program will want me since honestly I think that was the worse interview of my life! I've just been fuming since I just feel that the whole thing was really unprofessional. I've even been doubting choosing psychiatry!

Any thoughts?

It must have been quite disturbing. But how did he found out the bad relationship with your parents? This analyst is MD ? I felt uncomfortable I think in U Kansas, I remember it was a Psychologist who was asking me questions on pharmacotherapy in Psychiatry, side effects of Lithium, why depakote ?. One thing more about you doubting Psychiatry. If you are in doubt due this one episode, better take some more time and convince your self totally for what Residency you want to get into. It won't look good on your CV if you switch residencies, though it is always an option. hope you make a good decision. I personally will rank this Program at the bottom esp if this guy is the PD or at an equal position- he really sucks.
Best

 

[toby jones]

> But oddly enough, even Dr. Spitzer completed psychoanalytic training.

Did he? My mistake... I thought he was told he was 'unsuitable'

 

[toby jones]

Okay google revealed I was wrong. Still, he did go on to be hostile, huh ;-)

 

[michaelrack]

away from this, but he was persistent in an almost hostile way. Then I think he asked me blatantly inappropriate questions such as if I plan to have children in residency and if I've had therapy before. All in all, it was a really uncomfortable, unprofessional, and stressful interview.

Any thoughts?

Probably grounds for a lawsuit if you don't match (discrimination on the basis of sex)

 

[cleareyedguy]

Any psychiatrist can do intrusive interviews. Any fool can. Psychoanalytic training does not teach people to be inappropriate, and, while some of these "inappropriate" interviews are probably done by analysts, most probably aren't. Further, while some may truly be inappropriate, some are probably aimed at people who do not appear especially insightful and so the interview is an effort to assess whether the person would be a self-aware psychiatrist.

 

[michaelrack]

Being intrusive is ok. Asking about parents is ok. Asking about child-rearing plans opens up the program to a lawsuit.

When I was an asst prof at the U of Mississippi, I was one of the interviewers of psychiatry resident candidates, and I was specifically warned not to ask about the medical students' plan for having children.

 

[Chimed]

Any psychiatrist can do intrusive interviews. Any fool can. Psychoanalytic training does not teach people to be inappropriate, and, while some of these "inappropriate" interviews are probably done by analysts, most probably aren't. Further, while some may truly be inappropriate, some are probably aimed at people who do not appear especially insightful and so the interview is an effort to assess whether the person would be a self-aware psychiatrist.

Interesting comments.

Before I hit the interview trail last year, I was very weary about the prospect of being analyzed during an interview. However, I have to admit that some of my best interviews were done by psychiatrists with a psychodynamic orientation. Those interviewers did a great job of encouraging me to be reflective about who I am without making me feel violated, for lack of a better term. I'm, by nature, a bit more of an introvert, so those interviews gave me a chance to show qualities that were not apparent on my application. I ended up matching into one of those programs were I was "analyzed"....😉.

 

[toby jones]

I guess I was questioning just how inappropriate those kinds of questions are. Maybe they ask the guys about their plans to have children too. Children do tend to take up a lot of time / mental effort etc.

Borderline inappropriate, I guess. Perhaps. But then... More important for psychiatrists to be able to handle themselves well in the face of questions that might well be experienced as intrusive / inappropriate, I guess.

 

[DrWuStar]

I guess I was questioning just how inappropriate those kinds of questions are. Maybe they ask the guys about their plans to have children too. Children do tend to take up a lot of time / mental effort etc.

Borderline inappropriate, I guess. Perhaps. But then... More important for psychiatrists to be able to handle themselves well in the face of questions that might well be experienced as intrusive / inappropriate, I guess.

You have a point about the fact that children may impact a resident's performance, and I think many people agree with you at least on some level. However, whether or not it is appropriate is not really that relevant since it is illegal to ask about parenting status or plans during an interview, along with religion, marital status, sexual orientation, etc. And although it's possible they may ask men the same question, I sincerely doubt it. An informal survey of my friends reveals that none of the men have been asked about plans for a family, whereas several of my female friends have.

 

[whopper]

However, whether or not it is appropriate is not really that relevant since it is illegal to ask about parenting status or plans during an interview, along with religion, marital status, sexual orientation, etc. And although it's possible they may ask men the same question, I sincerely doubt it. An informal survey of my friends reveals that none of the men have been asked about plans for a family, whereas several of my female friends have.

It might be illegal, though it'd be hard to prove in court, nor would most people want to go through that trouble.

Unfortunate though not surprising. 1st & 2nd years do a lot of call coverage. Most programs want residents doing that call coverage because it'll keep the attendings from doing that--which costs much more money & is annoying to the attendings.

Should someone get pregnant, that person won't be able to cover call for some time.

I was very weary about the prospect of being analyzed during an interview

Several analysts it seems to me are more sensitive to the more elegant aspects of interviewing. Things such as the exact distance, eye contact, making sure the interviewee is comfortable. In my own opinion its not worth psychoanalyzing someone too extensively in an interview for residency. That interview is only going to be once, and more or less for 15 minutes to half an hour.

 

[toby jones]

> However, whether or not it is appropriate is not really that relevant since it is illegal to ask about parenting status or plans during an interview, along with religion, marital status, sexual orientation, etc.

Whereas asking about history of mental illness is, of course, fair game.

I didn't know that it was illegal to ask those questions.

I knew it was illegal to discriminate on the basis of, but I didn't know it was illegal to ask about their status. Race and gender seems double unfortunate, then, since those are open to view whereas the others can be concealed... And history of mental illness is fair game.

I don't know.

I do know that running off to complain about departmental interviewing techniques isn't likely to endear yourself with the department. Even if consensus is that this person is an inappropriate ass.

 

[Chimed]

>I do know that running off to complain about departmental interviewing techniques isn't likely to endear yourself with the department. Even if consensus is that this person is an inappropriate ass.

That may be true. But I don't think any program wants to be viewed as asking "illegal" questions.

 

[michaelrack]

>
Whereas asking about history of mental illness is, of course, fair game.

I am not sure about this topic when applying for residency. As far as attending psychiatric jobs, there are usually 2 applications. The actual job application has nothing questionable. The application for staff privileges (for the hospital, mental health center, etc) has questions about mental illness. This is how psychiatric job applicants can be legally discriminated against for mental illness.

 

[whopper]

That may be true. But I don't think any program wants to be viewed as asking "illegal" questions.

From what I heard from my friends, when they applied to medschool, they got a lot of inappropriate, perhaps "illegal" questions. Several of my friends who were Jewish or Asian got the "you've made your parents' mandate" even though few of them entered the medical field because of their parents. Or females got the, "its harder for women in medicine, I'd consider something else".

Residency-seemed to happen less though I hear a few comments like the above from time to time. I got the "parents' mandate" comment myself at a residency interview. While there are still plenty of applicants for few spots, the ratio in general appears less than in medical school. I guess when applicants are in a situation where they want that spot, they don't feel they have the power to complain, even if it is right to do so, and I wouldn't reccomend it either. It probably would lead to that applicant shooting their own foot in terms of their chances of getting into that program.

I ranted about a pressure interview I got a few years ago. A buddy of mine who entered that program told me the guy who gave the pressure interview was removed from teaching residents & pushed into research because several residents complained about the guy. Per my friend--this attending actually grabbed a resident in a manner that could constitute assault, and he supposedly pressure interviewed every candidate, ironically worse if he liked the candidate better. Did I bring it up to the program? No. I chose to not even rank that program. I didn't complain because I figured, if this guy has been an attending at that program for years, and they dont' know me, they're not going to listen to me.

There's also the Glass Ceiling. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_ceiling
You could be denied a job, and be given a valid reason, but that valid reason is not true. A business for example could deny someone advancement due to their race, but then give the person some BS explanation that there was a better candidate.

Frustrating? Yes-but a reality in life that we all have to deal with. Best way to arm yourself against this type of thing is to have at least an ample supply of programs for interview. (Though I wouldn't reccomend overkill with too many programs.) This gives you the power & confidence to not have to rank or downgrade a program should you get the impression they're not right for you.

A few programs--(very few) will ask the candidate for feedback on how the institution conducted their orientation & interviews. A good idea since some of the programs may not be aware that some of their attendings are not conducting themselves in a professional manner.

Finally, from my own experiences, the "odd" & "illegal" questions--they did happen but they were rare. For residency--only got 2 programs that did that out of about 10 (I'm getting old--forgot the exact number I interviewed at). For Fellowship-only 1 out of 7. Most of my interviews I thought went well with the interviewers being welcome & friendly. A few were tough, though fair and didn't have the "odd" stuff.

 

[michaelrack]

If you end up going to a diffent residency program, I would encourage you to report the offending program via a letter to the ACGME, cced to chairman of the offending program.

 

[billypilgrim37]

It seems like the fastest way for a program to damn itself would be to come across as not being "family friendly.' Our plans for child rearing come up in the first paragraph of just about every interview, because that's what's important to me (among a handful of other things, of course). Asking about parental status may be a blessing in disguise, because if a program ranks you lower because of the non-elicit things you do in the 88 other hours of the week that are yours, then being there would be a mistake in the first place.