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if you truly love medicine and are an introvert, how do you defend youself when people ask you why you want to enter medicine b/c people will expect you to be an extrovert? any comments?
korndoctor said:if you truly love medicine and are an introvert, how do you defend youself when people ask you why you want to enter medicine b/c people will expect you to be an extrovert? any comments?
korndoctor said:if you truly love medicine and are an introvert, how do you defend youself when people ask you why you want to enter medicine b/c people will expect you to be an extrovert? any comments?
korndoctor said:if you truly love medicine and are an introvert, how do you defend youself when people ask you why you want to enter medicine b/c people will expect you to be an extrovert? any comments?
Mooby said:Don't feel pressured to defend yourself. Let people think what they will.
I think medicine could probably use a few introverts. Not every patient enjoys a doctor chatting everything up. Quite a few appreciate a more serious tone. In my volunteer work, I make it a point not to initiate conversation about anything outside of a patient's healthcare. Of course, one needs to listen if a patient wants to talk and use their judgement on how far they want the converation to proceed.
Given that you're talking about introverts, you're probably more interested in research or a field like radiology that has less patient contact. With that in mind, just let others know your goals. There's a place in medicine for all personality types as long as you show dedication to healing patients and furthering the medical arts.
baylormed said:Anecdote:
My ochem prof told me he didn't want to write a recommendation letter for me ( I had a good grade in his class, never missed a lecture, worked hard, etc) because I didn't seem to be "social" enough.
When I said "what do you mean?" (what I was thinking was "you don't even know me dude "), he said that when I went to his office he never had a conversation with me outside of the subject. I just asked questions, got answers and left. He said if I wanted to be a doctor I needed to be more "extroverted" and "sociable" to deal with patients ( I was thinking "I have friends, I have a life...and oh yeah, YOU DON'T KNOW ME )
Obviously, I said thanks but I won't be wanting a letter from you anytime soon, and left. It made me mad because he based his assumption of my character on a few office visits. Excuse me! but I don't make friends with my professors very often. I go to class and study and ask relevant questions. Especially when they have 3 hours of office hrs a week and there are 5 people waiting outside the office to ask their own questions. So in trying to be respectful of their time I got screwed.
O well, he was the only one who seemed to think I didn't deserve a letter, so it doesn't matter, but it bothered me.
baylormed said:Anecdote:
My ochem prof told me he didn't want to write a recommendation letter for me ( I had a good grade in his class, never missed a lecture, worked hard, etc) because I didn't seem to be "social" enough.
When I said "what do you mean?" (what I was thinking was "you don't even know me dude "), he said that when I went to his office he never had a conversation with me outside of the subject. I just asked questions, got answers and left. He said if I wanted to be a doctor I needed to be more "extroverted" and "sociable" to deal with patients ( I was thinking "I have friends, I have a life...and oh yeah, YOU DON'T KNOW ME )
Obviously, I said thanks but I won't be wanting a letter from you anytime soon, and left. It made me mad because he based his assumption of my character on a few office visits. Excuse me! but I don't make friends with my professors very often. I go to class and study and ask relevant questions. Especially when they have 3 hours of office hrs a week and there are 5 people waiting outside the office to ask their own questions. So in trying to be respectful of their time I got screwed.
O well, he was the only one who seemed to think I didn't deserve a letter, so it doesn't matter, but it bothered me.
bbas said:Similarly, as a physician you are not expected to become friends with your patients either. Most if not all of your interaction with patients will be about their medical problems, not about social things. I don't agree with the professor at all.
bbas said:Similarly, as a physician you are not expected to become friends with your patients either. Most if not all of your interaction with patients will be about their medical problems, not about social things. I don't agree with the professor at all.
Oculus Sinistra said:You don't have to be friends, but you have to be friendly. I can see what the professor is trying to say.
Consider the following two hypothetical doctors:
DOCTOR 1:
Doc: "Hello Mr.Smith."
Patient: "Hello."
Doc: "What seems to be the problem?"
Patient: "I fell off a ladder."
Doc: "okay. and?"
Patient: "And my leg's been hurting for three days now. I can barely walk."
Doc: "Okay. We should do an x-ray and we'll see if the bone is broken."
Patient: "okay."
*awkward silence while the doctor writes down his notes*
Nothing wrong with it, necessarily; very much just "going through the motions". You can still be an excellent physician in the sense that you know every symptom and can interpret every lab result, but most people will probably feel that you're not very enjoyable to visit.
DOCTOR 2:
Doc: "Heyyyyyyyyy, John! How have you been?"
Patient: "Not too bad, not too bad, just have this problem with my leg."
Doc: "Really? Let me see! Wow, look at that. What happened?"
Patient: "Ohhh, I fell off a damn ladder trying to clean the gutters."
Doc: "Tell me about it! I almost fell myself last week trying to take down the Christmas lights. One hundred chains... never again! You know what John, I'm going to need to see what the inside of your leg looks like, so let's go X-ray your leg and find out what we need to do to fix you up, alright? Come with me."
Some people might be annoyed by this because it's a little more drawn-out. In my experience, however, most people love this type of good-natured attention. It's more neighborly and it helps to relieve the stress of not only dealing with the fact that you have an injury, but the fact that you have to see a doctor about that.
Since we want to be doctors, we don't think seeing a doctor is anything to be anxious about... but other people do. We should want to reduce that anxiety as much as possible. I think that's part of what it really means to "treat the whole patient and not just the injury."
And perhaps the professor is concerned about this. It's not so much about "introverts"... they just don't want more conversational minimalists in medicine. I think that's entirely understandable.
Oculus Sinistra said:You don't have to be friends, but you have to be friendly. I can see what the professor is trying to say.
Consider the following two hypothetical doctors:
DOCTOR 1:
Doc: "Hello Mr.Smith."
Patient: "Hello."
Doc: "What seems to be the problem?"
Patient: "I fell off a ladder."
Doc: "okay. and?"
Patient: "And my leg's been hurting for three days now. I can barely walk."
Doc: "Okay. We should do an x-ray and we'll see if the bone is broken."
Patient: "okay."
*awkward silence while the doctor writes down his notes*
Nothing wrong with it, necessarily; very much just "going through the motions". You can still be an excellent physician in the sense that you know every symptom and can interpret every lab result, but most people will probably feel that you're not very enjoyable to visit.
DOCTOR 2:
Doc: "Heyyyyyyyyy, John! How have you been?"
Patient: "Not too bad, not too bad, just have this problem with my leg."
Doc: "Really? Let me see! Wow, look at that. What happened?"
Patient: "Ohhh, I fell off a damn ladder trying to clean the gutters."
Doc: "Tell me about it! I almost fell myself last week trying to take down the Christmas lights. One hundred chains... never again! You know what John, I'm going to need to see what the inside of your leg looks like, so let's go X-ray your leg and find out what we need to do to fix you up, alright? Come with me."
Some people might be annoyed by this because it's a little more drawn-out. In my experience, however, most people love this type of good-natured attention. It's more neighborly and it helps to relieve the stress of not only dealing with the fact that you have an injury, but the fact that you have to see a doctor about that.
Since we want to be doctors, we don't think seeing a doctor is anything to be anxious about... but other people do. We should want to reduce that anxiety as much as possible. I think that's part of what it really means to "treat the whole patient and not just the injury."
And perhaps the professor is concerned about this. It's not so much about "introverts"... they just don't want more conversational minimalists in medicine. I think that's entirely understandable.
Oculus Sinistra said:And perhaps the professor is concerned about this. It's not so much about "introverts"... they just don't want more conversational minimalists in medicine. I think that's entirely understandable.
ADeadLois said:Since when are chemistry professors qualified to judge (1) a person's relative sociability, (2) how this quality projects onto a career in medicine and (3) the effect of sociability on patient care?
Oculus Sinistra said:EDIT.
Uhhh, since when are they not qualified?
They are people...
who see doctors...
who can formulate an opinion...
and
in a position to enforce that opinion by agreeing/refusing to write a LOR.
I'm not saying that professors are right about this all the time.
What I'm saying is I believe that a person's relative sociability can be gauged by office visits over time and interaction with other students that also come in.
Medical schools obviously believe this as well or they wouldn't ask for LOR's from professors. The LOR is supposed to say "I am a professor, I had this student, he was this this and this, and from what I observed, I think he would make an excellent physician."
The LOR is just a professor's APPROXIMATION of the physician you'll become based on their time with you.
In most cases, the professor doesn't know everything about how social you are or not. Similarly, patients don't care if you have fifty thousand friends you hang out with at home... they care about how you act when they are your patient in your office/exam room/etc. That's what they care about.
How you act when you interact with a professor may be totally different than how you'll act with a patient, true, but there's really no way for the professor to know that. What he thinks is how you act around him is how you're going to act around a patient.
Otherwise, what are the options?
No LORs? Not likely.
LORs only from social psych professors who have seen you in both one-on-one and large group settings? Who came with you to the hospital while you shadowed?
korndoctor said:if you truly love medicine and are an introvert, how do you defend youself when people ask you why you want to enter medicine b/c people will expect you to be an extrovert? any comments?
TIGIBedHead said:I think that there is room for introverts in fields other than radiology or research. Just because someone is reserved in social situations doesn't mean that they are incapable of professionally handling a situation with a patient. The physician doesn't have to go to parties with their patients, they're there to help them. In such a clearly defined role, and with the relevant knowledge and useful guidelines, introverts can do just as good of a job as extroverts.
And like someone above pointed out, an introvert isn't necessarily meek. An introvert is simply someone who recharges through alone time, whereas extroverts get their energy from constantly being around others. Depending on the situation, an introvert can seem outgoing too, and I think that the doctor-patient relationship is such that introverts can seem like extroverts. You practice small talk, and eventually it becomes more natural. And your real goal is to make the patient feel comfortable, which means that listening is important, maybe even more so than talking.
Doctor~Detroit said:
i'm a pretty quiet person. i can be downright shy when it comes to interacting with strangers when there is not a purpose for doing so. this doesn't apply when i work on an ambulance, where there's an obvious medical purpose for my interaction. i'm perfectly fine asking people medically related personal questions to someone i don't know. i've even learned to make decent small talk when patients cue me that it's what they want, and i try to enjoy it (especially when it results in humor or an interesting life story). and being introverted has nothing to do with being less empathic, as someone else suggested. i can understand and care about a patient's perspective just fine.
adeadlois, i don't understand how you can be an introvert and enjoy being social. i've met extroverts before who were real social butterflies--couldn't go a couple hours without talking to someone, even if it were a stranger on the phone about some inane thing--but would describe themselves as shy. wtf?
ADeadLois said:It is my understanding that professors who write LORs are assessing the student's academic aptitude and performance. This is so that an adcom can ascertain whether or not the applicant has the academic discipline required to be successful in medical school.
ADeadLois said:I think assessments of one's sociability and its potential effect on one's career as a doctor are assessed mainly through one's ECs. They show whether or not you can interact with people as part of a team, or one-on-one.
ADeadLois said:I do agree the subtleties in one's personality can be assessed by a professor, but it is not the MAIN reason for an LOR as I understand it. Again, this is just my opinion on the process, and I am no way an authority on the matter.
ADeadLois said:ISFJ here. I think the term "introvert" is misleading and often misused. I'm introverted in a sense that I'm extremely private about my feelings, but I'm not reserved in social interaction. In fact, I consider myself outgoing. Introvert does not equal quiet and meek.
yourmom25 said:similarly an introvert will do what is necessary when the time comes.
ADeadLois said:ISFJ In fact, I consider myself outgoing. Introvert does not equal quiet and meek.
wrd. i guess i was leaning towards the less extreme definition. i figured if these "introverts" are posting on SDN, they aren't the extreme type. but you're right, those more extreme types would do better in a different career. either that or they should try to get over their introversion.Law2Doc said:Some will, some won't. Some people on here are equating introvert with slightly reserved/shy, rather than someone who truly withdraws away from all social settings and contacts and lives primarily within their own thoughts (the more extreme definition). There are people out there, true introverts, who don't like to leave their own home. There are a variety of anti-anxiety medications on the market for folks with some of the more serious problems, providing mixed results. But if this latter form describes you, medicine will be an awfully hard career choice. Try some career in which you can telecommute.
i agree here too. by definition, introversion is directing one's thoughts inward. a loose definition is a reserved/shy person.Law2Doc said:I think you have a very different dictionary than I.
baylormed said:Obviously, I said thanks but I won't be wanting a letter from you anytime soon, and left. It made me mad because he based his assumption of my character on a few office visits.
Law2Doc said:Some will, some won't. Some people on here are equating introvert with slightly reserved/shy, rather than someone who truly withdraws away from all social settings and contacts and lives primarily within their own thoughts (the more extreme definition). There are people out there, true introverts, who don't like to leave their own home. There are a variety of anti-anxiety medications on the market for folks with some of the more serious problems, providing mixed results. But if this latter form describes you, medicine will be an awfully hard career choice. Try some career in which you can telecommute.
TIGIBedHead said:Law2Doc, an introvert isn't necessarily a person who is withdrawn from society and remains in their own thoughts. The psychological definition of an introvert is someone who gains energy/recharges by being alone, whereas an extrovert recharges by interacting with people. An introvert can be a friendly person, who happens to need more alone time than his extroverted counterparts. Social anxiety is a separate issue, often confused with shyness, which is often confused with introversion.
ADeadLois said:I think a person who is afraid to leave their home likely suffers from agorophobia or social anxiety disorder, not simply "extreme introversion". I was actually a pretty strong introvert when I took Myers-Briggs, but I do not withdraw from social interaction. My introversion comes from my tendency to withhold "soft" emotions, not necessarily withhold social interaction. I do have an extreme dislike for talking on the phone, but I think this is a phobia, since I don't have problems talking to people in person. I don't think my brand of introversion is a hinderance to future patient interaction. It can't be assumed that if someone is an introvert, even a strong one, that they'll be poor in patient interaction.
TIGIBedHead said:Law2Doc, an introvert isn't necessarily a person who is withdrawn from society and remains in their own thoughts. The psychological definition of an introvert is someone who gains energy/recharges by being alone, whereas an extrovert recharges by interacting with people. An introvert can be a friendly person, who happens to need more alone time than his extroverted counterparts. Social anxiety is a separate issue, often confused with shyness, which is often confused with introversion.
Law2Doc said:Even in the world of psychology, social axiety is actually not so much a separate issue. Those suffering from social anxiety problems disproportionately will be classified as introverts on tests such as Meyers-Briggs. See eg.
"Over-representation of Myers Briggs Type Indicator introversion in social phobia patients.Janowsky DS, Morter S, Tancer M.
Department of Psychiatry, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill 27599-7175, USA.
The purpose of this study is to profile the personalities of patients with social phobia. Sixteen patients with social phobia were compared with a normative population of 55,971, and with 24 hospitalized Major Depressive Disorder inpatients, using the Myers Briggs Type Indicator. The Myers Briggs Type Indicator, a popular personality survey, divides individuals into eight categories: Extroverts versus Introverts, Sensors versus Intuitives, Thinkers versus Feelers, and Judgers versus Perceivers. Social phobia patients were significantly more often Introverts (93.7%) than were subjects in the normative population (46.2%). In addition, using continuous scores, the social phobia patients scored as significantly more introverted than did the patients with Major Depressive Disorder, who also scored as Introverted. Introversion is a major component of social phobia, and this observation may have both etiological and therapeutic significance.
PMID: 10875053 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"
ADeadLois said:Agreed, but social phobia isn't necessarily a component of introversion. My point is that you can't automatically label one as having a social anxiety if they are classified as an introvert.
Originally Posted by ADeadLois
Agreed, but social phobia isn't necessarily a component of introversion. My point is that you can't automatically label one as having a social anxiety if they are classified as an introvert.
Law2Doc said:Not under the Meyers-Briggs definition no. Under the definition found in most lay dictionaries, actually yes.
Law2Doc said:Even in the world of psychology, social axiety is actually not so much a separate issue. Those suffering from social anxiety problems disproportionately will be classified as introverts on tests such as Meyers-Briggs. See eg.
"Over-representation of Myers Briggs Type Indicator introversion in social phobia patients.Janowsky DS, Morter S, Tancer M.
Department of Psychiatry, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill 27599-7175, USA.
The purpose of this study is to profile the personalities of patients with social phobia. Sixteen patients with social phobia were compared with a normative population of 55,971, and with 24 hospitalized Major Depressive Disorder inpatients, using the Myers Briggs Type Indicator. The Myers Briggs Type Indicator, a popular personality survey, divides individuals into eight categories: Extroverts versus Introverts, Sensors versus Intuitives, Thinkers versus Feelers, and Judgers versus Perceivers. Social phobia patients were significantly more often Introverts (93.7%) than were subjects in the normative population (46.2%). In addition, using continuous scores, the social phobia patients scored as significantly more introverted than did the patients with Major Depressive Disorder, who also scored as Introverted. Introversion is a major component of social phobia, and this observation may have both etiological and therapeutic significance.
PMID: 10875053 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"
Law2Doc said:Not under the Meyers-Briggs definition no. Under the definition found in most lay dictionaries, actually yes.
bbas said:From dictionary.com:
1. To turn or direct inward.
2. Psychology. To concentrate (one's interests) upon oneself.
3. Medicine. To turn (a tubular organ or part) inward upon itself.
Law2Doc said:Even in the world of psychology, social axiety is actually not so much a separate issue. Those suffering from social anxiety problems disproportionately will be classified as introverts on tests such as Meyers-Briggs. See eg.
"Over-representation of Myers Briggs Type Indicator introversion in social phobia patients.Janowsky DS, Morter S, Tancer M.
Department of Psychiatry, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill 27599-7175, USA.
The purpose of this study is to profile the personalities of patients with social phobia. Sixteen patients with social phobia were compared with a normative population of 55,971, and with 24 hospitalized Major Depressive Disorder inpatients, using the Myers Briggs Type Indicator. The Myers Briggs Type Indicator, a popular personality survey, divides individuals into eight categories: Extroverts versus Introverts, Sensors versus Intuitives, Thinkers versus Feelers, and Judgers versus Perceivers. Social phobia patients were significantly more often Introverts (93.7%) than were subjects in the normative population (46.2%). In addition, using continuous scores, the social phobia patients scored as significantly more introverted than did the patients with Major Depressive Disorder, who also scored as Introverted. Introversion is a major component of social phobia, and this observation may have both etiological and therapeutic significance.
PMID: 10875053 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"
TIGIBedHead said:I'm wondering if the converse is true. In other words, is it just that of patients with social anxiety, a large proportion happen to be introverts? Or is it also true that a larger proportion of introverts have social anxiety? This may very well be true, and I would strongly hypothesize in favor of this statement.. but does the above study prove this?
ADeadLois said:I'm not arguing that a large number of introverts don't have a social anxiety; I'm saying that it's implicit in the term.
Also, let's be careful about how we label social anxiety. There's a big difference between being shy and having SAD or a personality disorder. However, I still maintain that all 3 are not necessarily ingrained qualities of an introvert.
ADeadLois said:Law2Doc is right when he says that modern dictionaries imply that social phobia is a symptom of introversion. The point I made above is that the term has changed somewhat from its initial origins.