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Ireland Vs. Carribean????
Started by gmacpac
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Too many variables to talk about!!!
What are your main goals for going overseas? What do you want to do when you apply back in the US for residencies? Easier education? Cheaper? Easier entry? Easier to get back? Where do you want to go when you get back? What stigmas are you willing to face? and on and on and on ....
All of these and more have been answered on this forum and the Carribean forum - use the search engine and you will find your answer - With all due respect I do not want to beat these comparisons to death.
I've done one EASY search for all who are interested and don't want to do the work of typing in "Ireland Carribean" in the search field 🙄
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?searchid=441774
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/search.php?searchid=441774
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My goal is to get in Orthopedic Residency program after medical school. I know that my best chance is if I go to a local school. I do have good grades, but realistically speaking, there is a fair chance that I may not get into a local school (too many good applicant..etc)
My observation is that Carribean grad tend to get into Family Practice/Internal medicine, General Surgery and, Anesthesia programs. It is rare to find their grads going to surgical subspecialties. Offcourse there are exceptions to this generalization, however, considering 350 grads year out of which only handful get surgical subspecialties. Case in point......Only 1 Neurosurgery match in 2006.
I dont mean to insult anyone. I have worked with carribean grads, and I think they are all very well trained. But, for some reason, specialty residency programs prefer to take local grads over FMG's.
Ok...so here is my plan....If I dont get an acceptance locally, I have to go to foreign medical school.
Which brings the question.....Are irish grads more likely to get specialy positions because their programs are affiliated with columbia and the likes?
Secondly, from someone who is currently a student in ireland or is in the application process.....is Ireland really a better option compared to carribean?
What are the negatives about ireland....beside it also being a foreign school?
I hope this clarified my question.
My observation is that Carribean grad tend to get into Family Practice/Internal medicine, General Surgery and, Anesthesia programs. It is rare to find their grads going to surgical subspecialties. Offcourse there are exceptions to this generalization, however, considering 350 grads year out of which only handful get surgical subspecialties. Case in point......Only 1 Neurosurgery match in 2006.
I dont mean to insult anyone. I have worked with carribean grads, and I think they are all very well trained. But, for some reason, specialty residency programs prefer to take local grads over FMG's.
Ok...so here is my plan....If I dont get an acceptance locally, I have to go to foreign medical school.
Which brings the question.....Are irish grads more likely to get specialy positions because their programs are affiliated with columbia and the likes?
Secondly, from someone who is currently a student in ireland or is in the application process.....is Ireland really a better option compared to carribean?
What are the negatives about ireland....beside it also being a foreign school?
I hope this clarified my question.
Do not believe anyone who tells you that because an irish school is affiliated with a US school that you have a better chance of getting into a residency program. The only school that tries to do this anyway is RCSI. You have no better chance then compared to a carribean school.
I had the same thoughts as you. Here's what I concluded after talking to people about it: The carribean schools tailor their education to doing well on the US boards. The Irish schools tailor theirs to doing well in the Irish medical world. They don't care about the US boards.
But, I don't really like the idea of offshore American schools, whether it's a carribean school or RCSI. I'm not saying the education isn't fantastic, but I think sometimes there's a stigma to going to one of those schools. For the same or less money, you could go to a proper school in another county (Ireland or Australia). Even though it's not really any different, I prefer the idea of going to school in another country then the idea of paying another country for an American education. The other plus to going to a proper school in another country is that you could always practice here. In Ireland, the classes are ranked and the top students get first residency choices - regardless of nationality. But every EU student is gaurnteed an intern spot so if there's EU students that haven't matched they kick out the bottom north American students and give them their place. If you plan to finish in the top half of the group of non EU students then that wouldn't be a problem.
Don't dismiss the idea of working somewhere else. 5 years is a loooong time and things change. It's nice to have the option of staying in case the grass doesn't look any greener back home.
Final thing: You asked this question in the UK/Ireland forum so you knew you'd get a biased response. I'm sure you'll get the opposite advice from people who chose the carribean route. I'm not knocking their decision and it's hard to tell if Ireland/Australia is a better choice. Who knows! But I thought I'd share with you some of my reasoning for picking Ireland.
Good luck!
PS: Not sure if this helps your decision, but I applied to Canadian schools after I got into an Irish school. The next year I was accepted to a Canadian school but decided to finish school in Ireland. Being in another country is different and annoying sometimes cause it's not the same as home but I really think the program here is fantastic. Reading this forum you'll only hear the complaints. No one ever rants/raves about all the things that are better.
I had the same thoughts as you. Here's what I concluded after talking to people about it: The carribean schools tailor their education to doing well on the US boards. The Irish schools tailor theirs to doing well in the Irish medical world. They don't care about the US boards.
But, I don't really like the idea of offshore American schools, whether it's a carribean school or RCSI. I'm not saying the education isn't fantastic, but I think sometimes there's a stigma to going to one of those schools. For the same or less money, you could go to a proper school in another county (Ireland or Australia). Even though it's not really any different, I prefer the idea of going to school in another country then the idea of paying another country for an American education. The other plus to going to a proper school in another country is that you could always practice here. In Ireland, the classes are ranked and the top students get first residency choices - regardless of nationality. But every EU student is gaurnteed an intern spot so if there's EU students that haven't matched they kick out the bottom north American students and give them their place. If you plan to finish in the top half of the group of non EU students then that wouldn't be a problem.
Don't dismiss the idea of working somewhere else. 5 years is a loooong time and things change. It's nice to have the option of staying in case the grass doesn't look any greener back home.
Final thing: You asked this question in the UK/Ireland forum so you knew you'd get a biased response. I'm sure you'll get the opposite advice from people who chose the carribean route. I'm not knocking their decision and it's hard to tell if Ireland/Australia is a better choice. Who knows! But I thought I'd share with you some of my reasoning for picking Ireland.
Good luck!
PS: Not sure if this helps your decision, but I applied to Canadian schools after I got into an Irish school. The next year I was accepted to a Canadian school but decided to finish school in Ireland. Being in another country is different and annoying sometimes cause it's not the same as home but I really think the program here is fantastic. Reading this forum you'll only hear the complaints. No one ever rants/raves about all the things that are better.
Simply - the Caribbean schools may land you with some stigma attached when you go to apply for residency. This isn't right, but it happens. Irish schools...less stigma, good reputation, and people like something different. However, don't expect spectacular board scores because it is really hard to study for boards and for class exams in 2 different systems at the same time, especially if you want some sort of life.
Especially since you want Ortho...as any kind of FMG, you'd have nearly no chance. Maybe 2% or something. But it will be very difficult. If you don't get into a US school this year, and you have your heart set on Ortho, reapply next year.
Especially since you want Ortho...as any kind of FMG, you'd have nearly no chance. Maybe 2% or something. But it will be very difficult. If you don't get into a US school this year, and you have your heart set on Ortho, reapply next year.
If I sounded a little harsh gmacpac, apologies ... I've just seen too many newbies post and not work hard enough to get the information themselves (and it is such an easy thing to do). If you want something from a forum like this, all that is expected that some work in trying to find out what can be best for you ... is likewise done.
Anyway, I remembered a post about MY GRADUATING CLASS and specifically look at the last "conversation" in post #2 by "mick" - it should clearly sum up what the general Irish experience is about in the Northeastern US residency programs 🙂 - all of us NA graduates placed (that wanted to be placed that is):
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=72246&highlight=ucd+2003
Anyway, I remembered a post about MY GRADUATING CLASS and specifically look at the last "conversation" in post #2 by "mick" - it should clearly sum up what the general Irish experience is about in the Northeastern US residency programs 🙂 - all of us NA graduates placed (that wanted to be placed that is):
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=72246&highlight=ucd+2003
Hartigan's - gave us alcoholic liver disease 😀!
Speaking of Hartigan's, headed back there this for a week soon and next Saturday is SJN is planning a reunion as SF and RO'C are coming back to Ireland from Australia as well for the Xmas break - apparently starting off at Hartigans!
PC
Get the pints in there while you can - the last medicine class to study in Earlsfort Terrace (i.e. us!) is almost done. Our last day of study in the Library is next Tuesday. Dunno what's Ma gonna do without us!
hmm. Hartigans 👎 👎 . The Pavillion Sports Bar 👍 👍
On the subject of beer, they certainly don't have good Guinness in the Carribean.....
Quick question on the clinical training in the Carribean... if the population of say Granada is maybe only 100,000, is that enough people to generate a decent variety of different medical cases for a teaching hospital?
Quick question on the clinical training in the Carribean... if the population of say Granada is maybe only 100,000, is that enough people to generate a decent variety of different medical cases for a teaching hospital?
The top Caribbean schools (eg. Ross) have their clinical rotations in US hospitals. That's one of the big advantages in going that route: you get American style clinical training. That means you get recommendation letters from American doctors and hopefully residency directors will know your face and you get a leg up when it comes to match time. It also means that you usually don't have to play catch up the way Irish grads do when they head back to North America.
that's true. You do get into the American system. However, I have to say...that having european training doesn't hurt us. If you do US electives, you do get accustomed to the system pretty quickly. I'm doing one right now and have been told by all my attendings that I'm doing very strong work. Some of the other residents even thought I was a resident. So...you get used to the system in a few days..the main thing is getting used to the way they use their computer system and chart.
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Part of this is a cross-post from another threadapologies! I didn't see this one earlier and it really does fit better here.
I've just started at UCD. I'm unimpressed with the curriculum so far. I think the focus on teaching is poor and I don't really feel that I'm getting value for money. On the other hand, from someone I know who's studying at Saba in the Carribean, their educational quality seems higher.
Don't use this as your only piece of informationit could just be that first term at UCD is lousy; it could be that I would dislike Saba (or another Carribean school) too were I there. And I don't know about the other Irishthey could be superb. Just my opinion that you might want to have on hand. You should probably also know that I've dealt a little in educational theory especially at the university-level, so I have some very strong opinons on what makes a good university education; I'm a lot pickier than most and am probably more negative than others would be.
In terms of getting a residency, the Irish schools seem much more highly regarded in the US and Canada, and the limited match information very much seems to bear this out. For many that may be the most important factor (it certainly was the key reason I opted for Ireland over the Carribean). The Carribean schools do have their rotations in the US and are geared to the USMLE, but nonetheless, Ireland grads seem to match better when the get back.
Good luck! I'd be happy to provide specifics about UCD if you want, but probably not for a couple of weeksbusy studying for exams which begin on Monday.
I've just started at UCD. I'm unimpressed with the curriculum so far. I think the focus on teaching is poor and I don't really feel that I'm getting value for money. On the other hand, from someone I know who's studying at Saba in the Carribean, their educational quality seems higher.
Don't use this as your only piece of informationit could just be that first term at UCD is lousy; it could be that I would dislike Saba (or another Carribean school) too were I there. And I don't know about the other Irishthey could be superb. Just my opinion that you might want to have on hand. You should probably also know that I've dealt a little in educational theory especially at the university-level, so I have some very strong opinons on what makes a good university education; I'm a lot pickier than most and am probably more negative than others would be.
In terms of getting a residency, the Irish schools seem much more highly regarded in the US and Canada, and the limited match information very much seems to bear this out. For many that may be the most important factor (it certainly was the key reason I opted for Ireland over the Carribean). The Carribean schools do have their rotations in the US and are geared to the USMLE, but nonetheless, Ireland grads seem to match better when the get back.
Good luck! I'd be happy to provide specifics about UCD if you want, but probably not for a couple of weeksbusy studying for exams which begin on Monday.
I think you hit on a reality about Irish med school. The teaching/curriculum is probably equally frustrating at times here at UCC as at all the schools-- mostly because it's different than we're used to in NAmerica. Less prescriptive here and you can indeed feel like you're paying a lot to teach yourself.
But there's the rub...in the end, you probably know more (there are too many anecdotes from those like Leorl who have gone back for electives and stood out as having above-par core knowledge and/or were mistaken for residents). Youu know more exactly because you direct and/or teach yourself (that's how most learning happens anyway) and also because (in my opinion) of the nature of exams. Because it is so hands-off and done in big chunks (we have end-of-module exams, months intervening, and finals on the same material), I find I have to wrestle with the details and the synthesis twice for each chunk of material so I really do know it (well) by the end of the year. You think it's all a bit weak until you reflect after the year is over and realize you've learned a ton. Don't know how it would compare in the carrib schools but the system here is growing on me as I progress.
But there's the rub...in the end, you probably know more (there are too many anecdotes from those like Leorl who have gone back for electives and stood out as having above-par core knowledge and/or were mistaken for residents). Youu know more exactly because you direct and/or teach yourself (that's how most learning happens anyway) and also because (in my opinion) of the nature of exams. Because it is so hands-off and done in big chunks (we have end-of-module exams, months intervening, and finals on the same material), I find I have to wrestle with the details and the synthesis twice for each chunk of material so I really do know it (well) by the end of the year. You think it's all a bit weak until you reflect after the year is over and realize you've learned a ton. Don't know how it would compare in the carrib schools but the system here is growing on me as I progress.
My bigger issues with the curriculum aren't so much as having to teach yourself, but rather that (1) it's not clear how much detail I need to learn, and (2) more importantly, much of the material isn't presented in a logical manner at all. I'm somewhat optimistic that the latter is just a first term problem at UCDthe first term list of modules seems like what didn't fit into the sytems-based curriculum that's in the later terms.
But yeah, it does certainly look like Irish grad do well in the long run despite these problems.
That's exactly how I felt about the first two years as well.
Hi there, I'm new here...but I wanted to say that I'm a fourth year (of 5) at RCSI and I think it has been an excellent experience. With reference to the above posters regarding boards performance...it's true that here there are not weekly tutorials for USMLE prep and that our education is not geared towards USMLE success. However, I would say that from the group of people in my year that took the boards this past spring and summer most did invariably well. I took Step 1 and with a bit of studying on top of the good base provided by the curriculum broke 250/99...we had a couple other people score 99 and quite a few more scoring >95. The one difference here that I believe is a big benefit is having the summers off in between years 1 and 2 and 2 and 3 to facilitate elective time, research and board examination...so if you're really neurotic you could study for a full two months before taking your boards without distraction, as opposed to the states where 3 weeks (more or less) are allocated before clinical rotations start in July. If anyone has RCSI specific questions feel free to contact me.
That's very good for you SugeryEire, congratulations! Our class did not do as well as it sounds like SurgeryEire's has, but I just want a reminder that good scores on the USMLE is not school-dependent. NONE of the schools prepare you for the USMLE and great scores seem more indivdual-specific. The only thing schools can provide is scheduling 🙂. I'm not sure how their schedule is arranged, but it may facilitate more USMLE study, I don't know.
Regarding the 3 posters above...what they say is correct. I've said it before ...I've really enjoyed my time here, but a lot of it does seem like teach-yourself-medicine, organization isn't the best and I do think some of the disorganized nature of a couple of the classes has hurt my academic performance.
However, and I really can't figure out how, it seems like it happens by magic, you realize that you actually do know stuff and that you have learned a lot through the Irish curriculum. I at least know enough now to bull**** when patients or patient's families ask me stuff in the ED. Seriously, somehow you come off knowing a lot. And my attendings at my elective now think my clinical knowledge and plans for management are very good, which was a very big suprise to me because I still think I'm at the "HUH?" level. The good thing is that you will be very proficient when you graduate, and you know you will even though it really doesn't seem like it until maybe even your final year.
Who MD - regarding how much you need to know. Basically in medicine, we say you need to know it all. So just learn it all! And stop when things get so specific you KNOW you won't need that information 🙂.
Regarding the 3 posters above...what they say is correct. I've said it before ...I've really enjoyed my time here, but a lot of it does seem like teach-yourself-medicine, organization isn't the best and I do think some of the disorganized nature of a couple of the classes has hurt my academic performance.
However, and I really can't figure out how, it seems like it happens by magic, you realize that you actually do know stuff and that you have learned a lot through the Irish curriculum. I at least know enough now to bull**** when patients or patient's families ask me stuff in the ED. Seriously, somehow you come off knowing a lot. And my attendings at my elective now think my clinical knowledge and plans for management are very good, which was a very big suprise to me because I still think I'm at the "HUH?" level. The good thing is that you will be very proficient when you graduate, and you know you will even though it really doesn't seem like it until maybe even your final year.
Who MD - regarding how much you need to know. Basically in medicine, we say you need to know it all. So just learn it all! And stop when things get so specific you KNOW you won't need that information 🙂.
