Is a Fast Track to Psy.D a safe bet..or a risky move??

[Amstrs]

Hi everyone!

Im sure this topic comes up a lot because I have spend the last couple of hour researching it but I still thought it would be best to just ask all the experts out there.

I am currently in a MFT masters program at a well established university. The program is accredited nationally and the school has a very strong reputation for all its counseling programs, MFT especially. The school itself has been around for years and has never had a problem with student placement for practicums. The thing Im wondering about is that 3 years ago they started a Psy. D doctoral program that is not yet APA accredited. They are working on getting accredited and the classes are all structured to meet APA requirements, its just that with it being a new program the director said that they have to have so many students graduate in order to show progress.

Normally I wouldn't even think twice of attending a non APA accredited program. In all honesty when I applied to grad school in the first place I was just thinking that I was going to get my MFT license and that was it. But I am quickly learning that a Psy. D is preferred in the state that I live in so long term Im going to have to do it. So since the school is looking to build up their Psy. D program they are offering all the current counseling students at a masters degree level to do a "fast- track" option to the Psy. D degree. What this means is that any student who is thinking of obtaining a Psy. D in the future can enroll in their Psy. D program after taking only 30 masters credits from their university ( they have the approved courses listed) and 1 semester of practicum. You have to have a 3.8 GPA or better to apply and 3 reference letters from your professors, they are just waving the requirement of graduating with a masters. This would shave 1 1/2 years off my total schooling if I wanted a Psy. D someday in my career. Not to mention 20,000 of student loan bills. But is it worth the risk? For one I would not have a master license to fall back on if I don't finish the Psy. D program for whatever reason. And second the program is not yet accredited. They did say that I would be the 4th year of students entering into the program and all they have to do is prove that the program holds up and produce "well rounded" L.P's to the APA and then they can apply for accreditation. Also the program meets all requirements to get licensed in my state and is regionally accredited. This is the last hurtle they have to jump through. Once their application is in review it takes 18 months for the approval process to complete and once approved all students from the day the school applied would be listed as "apa approved schooling" its the ones who are graduating before the application process is over that will not have that APA approved title. So is this a lucky opportunity or a risky endeavor? The director said this is not a big deal and they are confident they will get accredited...its just when.

Im taking out loan for almost all my schooling and am almost 30 so I would like to start a career soon. So the time and money saved in this situation is very appealing....but Im also not stupid enough to box myself into a corner.. which is why I now know that MFT is a limited license and insurance billing can be tricky in some states. I would go to a LICSW but the programs here cost just as much as a Psy.D and would cost me 300 more per credit then the MFT program. With the time lost in reapplying to another school and the fall start dates I would have just as much time invested as I would just doing this Psy. D fast track.. So any advice would be helpful since Im majorly stressing over this decision!!

THANK!!!!!

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[Therapist4Chnge]

"Any doctorate" + "Fast-track" should never go together. That sounds highly questionable.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I don't think the "fast track" option is problematic--really, you're just going straight from master's coursework to PsyD coursework, no biggie. Although I do think it is worrisome that you wouldn't end up with a licensable master's. The lack of APA accreditation is also worrisome. Do what you must, but getting a licensable master's first has its advantages (i.e., licensure for both work and pre-doctoral internship) before starting a doctoral program, as does enrolling in an APA accredited program. I think you need to step back from the school's sales pitch--they sound brilliant, but don't fall for it based on emotion!!

 

[cara susanna]

What are the requirements for the fast-track PsyD? Like, to graduate with it, not enroll in the program?

 

[Amstrs]

The Psy.D program is a normal 5 year program with a 1 year internship, the "fast track" part is that if your attending school for a masters degree they will let you skip the last 1 1/2 years of course work to start the Psy. D course work early

 

[cara susanna]

Hmm, it still seems weird to me. Most doctoral programs won't let you skip a full 1 1/2 year even if you come in with a Masters.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Hmm, it still seems weird to me. Most doctoral programs won't let you skip a full 1 1/2 year even if you come in with a Masters.

I'm thinking that "skipping" is inaccurate. Many (if not most) PsyD programs will "transfer" master's level credit from a clinical psychology (or similar) master's program--this sounds about the same. I guess you'd just be skipping the masters-level coursework, which you completed anyway. Right?

 

[twilson]

Hmm, it still seems weird to me. Most doctoral programs won't let you skip a full 1 1/2 year even if you come in with a Masters.

I know that in my department's clinical program that if your master's thesis is approved you take the same 1st year classes,take your prelims a year early, and, generally, finish a year earlier.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm sure this post will come off as abrasive, but you make a lot of assumptions in your post that may rub people the wrong way. People often take multiple years to prepare themselves to be competitive to APPLY to a doctoral program. They learn about the differences between training programs, and they figure out which training program fits for them. It sounds like you need to do more research about the differences between each training program, the licensures, and the day to day work of each respective profession.

So since the school is looking to build up their Psy. D program they are offering all the current counseling students at a masters degree level to do a "fast- track" option to the Psy. D degree. What this means is that any student who is thinking of obtaining a Psy. D in the future can enroll in their Psy. D program after taking only 30 masters credits from their university ( they have the approved courses listed) and 1 semester of practicum. You have to have a 3.8 GPA or better to apply and 3 reference letters from your professors, they are just waving the requirement of graduating with a masters. This would shave 1 1/2 years off my total schooling if I wanted a Psy. D someday in my career.

It is pretty frustrating to keep seeing people who want to try and get into a program any other way than through the front door. An MFT program is not the same as an Experimental Psychology program. Or a Clinical Psychology program. It isn't even a PSYCHOLOGY program. How is this not a red flag? If the program in fact is willing to waive a year (or more) of doctoral classes in their program for classes from an outside discipline....then that is a problem.

Not to mention 20,000 of student loan bills. But is it worth the risk? For one I would not have a master license to fall back on if I don't finish the Psy. D program for whatever reason. And second the program is not yet accredited. They did say that I would be the 4th year of students entering into the program and all they have to do is prove that the program holds up and produce "well rounded" L.P's to the APA and then they can apply for accreditation. Also the program meets all requirements to get licensed in my state and is regionally accredited. This is the last hurtle they have to jump through. Once their application is in review it takes 18 months for the approval process to complete and once approved all students from the day the school applied would be listed as "apa approved schooling" its the ones who are graduating before the application process is over that will not have that APA approved title. So is this a lucky opportunity or a risky endeavor? The director said this is not a big deal and they are confident they will get accredited...its just when.

Until a program officially becomes APA-acred., all assurances of meeting the standards and being granted APA-acred. status is just marketing. I'd be very wary of any program that doesn't acknowledge that there is still a chance that they don't get approved.

...I would go to a LICSW but the programs here cost just as much as a Psy.D and would cost me 300 more per credit then the MFT program. With the time lost in reapplying to another school and the fall start dates I would have just as much time invested as I would just doing this Psy. D fast track.. So any advice would be helpful since Im majorly stressing over this decision!!

If you want to be an MFT therapist...be an MFT. If you want to be a social worker...be an LICSW. If you want to be a clinical psychologist, go through the proper channels just like everyone else. All you have talked about has been the money and time, and you have completed ignored the fact the training is COMPLETELY different. The theoretical underpinnings are different. The research training is different. The stats training is different. Please consider treating each field of study with more respect, as they aren't all interchangeable paths.

Btw, listing yourself as a "psychologist" is misleading.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm thinking that "skipping" is inaccurate. Many (if not most) PsyD programs will "transfer" master's level credit from a clinical psychology (or similar) master's program--this sounds about the same. I guess you'd just be skipping the masters-level coursework, which you completed anyway. Right?

Incorrect.

Some programs, on a case by case basis, will waive a few classes....but that is a far cry from many/most. A first year stats class, maybe a research methods class, and/or an Adult Psychopathology class...but that is far less than 1.5 years (see below).

There isn't 'Masters-level coursework' in a doctoral program, though there can be a lot of crossover in the material covered.

 

[cara susanna]

My program lets Masters-level people skip a few courses and apply for placements earlier, but that's it.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Incorrect.

Some programs, on a case by case basis, will waive a few classes....but that is a far cry from many/most. A first year stats class, maybe a research methods class, and/or an Adult Psychopathology class...but that is far less than 1.5 years (see below).

Hey, listen. I'm talking about PsyD programs. This is probably different from MOST (if not ALL) clinical PhD programs. There's a HUGE difference. Yeah, it's not true for certain programs, I get that. But PsyD programs are a different animal. There is also ample evidence of *counseling* PhD programs who waive up to 30+ credits (or class numbers in the TEENS) for those with a masters degree.

As you begged for specificity in distinguishing between clinical specialties, please show the same when talking about variations in programs.

I'm not defending the OP's school (in fact, I think they're being deceptive in their marketing), but really you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

There isn't 'Masters-level coursework' in a doctoral program, though there can be a lot of crossover in the material covered.

Sure there is--or, there can be. Many PsyD programs issue a licensable masters after the coursework is completed.

My program lets Masters-level people skip a few courses and apply for placements earlier, but that's it.

PhD or PsyD? I'm betting PhD. Totally different animal.

 

[cara susanna]

PhD, but I don't see why the standard should be different.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

PhD, but I don't see why the standard should be different.

It just is. Not always, but it's not uncommon. Probably because PsyD students, largely, are paying tuition.

 

[Amstrs]

Btw, listing yourself as a "psychologist" is misleading.

Im sorry I just joined this site last night. I think I fixed my profile status since it bothered you so much. Did not realize it was listed that way.

 

[Amstrs]

After looking at all the post I went back and looked at the program more clearly and got some more details to clear things up. The 1 1/2 year comment was because the counseling psy masters program I currently am in is a 3 year projected program with your practicum included. I have not yet started the coursework for MFT because I was going to switch majors this summer. According to the school if I switched to MFT I could still do the fast track option but it would only save me about 6 months cause they would only wave the practicum requirements but not the coursework. So as of right now when I talked to my school they still have me listed as a counseling psy. student, even though I turned in my paperwork for MFT. ( the core coursework for both programs at my school is the same so that adds to the confusion) If I were to stay in the counseling M.A I can do the fast track option and shave around 1 1/2 years off but I have to have my "core classes" done. Those classes are [ developmental psy, theories of personality, psychopathology, counseling theory, stats, foundation of therapy, ethics, psy assessment, counseling skills, psychophysiology and 300 hours of basic practicum (in the Masters program we have to do basic prac, and then Pract 1 &2 to graduate) after those 33 credits are completed then I can move over to the Psy. D coursework and work on that degree if Im accepted. (which you usually apply for fast track after 18 credits) So hopefully that makes a little more sense so you guys can let me know if this is a scam or not. I would have an option to finish out my counseling coursework for my MA through the Psy.D program but it does not meet the requirements to be a L.P.C.C. because my license work would be under Psy.D.

On a side note the reason why I turned in paperwork to switch to MFT instead of continuing the counseling MA is because when I started school I was not sure if I would do a Psy. D right away because I have kids and a job and I also found out that L.P.C.C (L.P.C) are not covered by insurance companies in the state I live in because it is a new degree. So I was worried about not being able to bill after getting licensed. I brought up the L.I.C.S.W because I had heard from former students that most of them do the same as a Psy.D without the assessment work for less schooling and are a shoe in for insurance.

Im really sorry if this is all confusing, I just started this program in the fall and I feel like there is so much information to know about which path to go down and if you make the wrong choice you will ruin your career. Last thing I want is a Psy.D or a M.A that I cant use for a job after this is all done. Most of my experience is with children and that is where my B.A is so I know long term I want to work in child Psy.....just not real sure which is the best route to get there. I really do appreciate all the advice and am very open to all your responses.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Hey, listen. I'm talking about PsyD programs. This is probably different from MOST (if not ALL) clinical PhD programs. There's a HUGE difference. Yeah, it's not true for certain programs, I get that. But PsyD programs are a different animal.

So am I. The OP asked about a Psy.D. program, so I responded in regard to Psy.D. programs.

There is also ample evidence of *counseling* PhD programs who waive up to 30+ credits (or class numbers in the TEENS) for those with a masters degree.

Since you brought up counseling programs, I'm curious, which APA-acred counseling Ph.D. programs will wave 13 (or more) classes?

Sure there is--or, there can be. Many PsyD programs issue a licensable masters after the coursework is completed.

They aren't Masters-level classes in the doctoral program because APA would not acred. them if that were the case, and the graduates would not qualify for doctoral-level licensure. Instead, they are doctoral-level classes that may qualify for Masters-level licensure.

PhD or PsyD? I'm betting PhD. Totally different animal.

You need to pass the same national licensure exam, complete the same # of classes, and complete the same hour requirements...so it shouldn't be. If there are significant differences, then that is a problem.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It just is. Not always, but it's not uncommon. Probably because PsyD students, largely, are paying tuition.

Why should paying for tuition change training standards?

 

[Psychadelic2012]

T4C, do you want to have a conversation or do you want to just rebut everything I say? Why is the onus on me to provide proof? Where's yours?

 

[NYRangers1]

To the original poster:
It sounds like you're still in a place personally where you're not quite sure what you want. I understand that in the long run you'd like a PsyD, but have been put in a tempting situation by your school. I wouldn't pursue a doctorate from a program that wasn't acred, and wouldn't put myself in a place that could leave me high and dry (not getting acred). Complete your masters, try it out and if you feel like you want to go back for a doc, go to one that is acred.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

T4C, do you want to have a conversation or do you want to just rebut everything I say? Why is the onus on me to provide proof? Where's yours?

I am open to have a conversation. Providing citations for assertions is a common request on here. Since you asserted there is ample evidence (see below) for programs that waive 13 (or more) classes, I was simply asking for some program examples.

There is also ample evidence of *counseling* PhD programs who waive up to 30+ credits (or class numbers in the TEENS) for those with a masters degree.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I am open to have a conversation. Providing citations for assertions is a common request on here. Since you asserted there is ample evidence (see below) for programs that waive 13 (or more) classes, I was simply asking for some program examples.

I can speak to programs I applied to:

http://education.nmsu.edu/cep/phd/documents/info-packet2011.pdf - Page 11.

http://www.unt.edu/pais/grad/gdcpsy.htm - "Degree Requirements"

Third is Texas Woman's University - not listed on the website, but reported to be highly common by current students.

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

Just wanted to throw in there that the Psy.D. program I attend, of course APA-accredited, is one of few that requires a Masters Degree prior to admission and doesn't ever waive anything. Ever. Their emphasis is that, even with overlap, doctoral-level training should be at an entirely different level and standard. I've been delighted by the level of discourse and advanced level of practice we have been able to get into in each course (I'm several years in).

Its just hard for me to imagine any APA-accredited program waiving a class because of Masters level course work. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

So? What does that prove? There are programs that do waive courses. It doesn't make them worse. Just because it's hard to imagine for you doesn't mean it doesn't happen at good schools. For all I know, your program has a different curriculum than other programs that don't require a masters. Even if they have the same curriculum..so what? What you said really means nothing. Coursework is one piece of the puzzle.

 

[terrybug]

So, it sounds like we have 3 possible interpretations here:
1. Nothing shady going on here. If you apply to a PsyD (or PhD) program with an MA already, the faculty will typically wave a few courses that overlap. Maybe that's all your program is doing.

2. Something shady IS going on here... but it's not unique to your program. Maybe this is a loophole that isn't a secret. It's not quite playing by the rules, but schools exploit the matriculation process all the time. So, it isn't great per se, but not a cause for concern.

3. It is indeed a shady proposition. While everyone else is playing by the rules, patiently waiting for students to complete the program to the satisfaction of the APA, someone in your program has decided that the rules can be ignored and is possibly somewhere on the sociopathy spectrum.

if I'm way off base, I apologize. If this is a fair representation, then I'd contact the APA and not a group of grad students (myself included) who don't know the in's and out's of this business.

Here is a link to the APA that you might find helpful if you decide to contact someone:

http://www.apa.org/about/division/div2.aspx

Maybe you will find better contact info, but that's what I came up with. If this isn't helpful, I apologize. If it does get you in touch with people who can answer your questions, it would be great if you could report back!

 

[Member012345678]

T4C and OP-Texas Woman's University, a public university, has an APA accredited PhD program in Counseling Psychology. They also accept people into a terminal Master's program in Counseling Psychology as well. The Master's program is the exact same course work as the first two years of the PhD program. Master's and doctoral students are in the same classes together. If after completing the terminal Master's, a student can apply for the PhD program and have the 2 years of Master's work they've finished completely transfer over into that program. Students that do this actually have a big advantage (as per TWU faculty) over outside students that apply directly to their doctoral program. The TWU faculty said they much rather accept a Master's student from their program, since they know them and their academic ability, rather than take a gamble on an outside PhD applicant who is a complete stranger to them.