Is anyone concerned about the work/life balance?

[Clinicall]

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[surfguy84]

I think once you get past school and residency, the amount of effort you truly want to put in is up to you. You don't have to go into a field with call (or much of it). You don't have to work those 70 hour weeks if you don't want to. You don't have to work full-time. You don't have to work until you're 65+. Hell...you could go work for a non-profit organization, make less money, but still get to do what you love.....

Going into medicine doesn't have to be synonymous with a life filled with nothing but work.

Unfortunately, people perpetually want more. More money, better car, lake house, etc. To earn these things they sacrifice their time for money. Prioritize your life, don't be the kind of person who feels they never have enough, and you should be able to lead a balanced life, full of meaning and happiness.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I'll second the above. I'm leaving a good career for medical school. Despite the successes I've had, I live as if I was making 40k a year...granted, I will splurge on travel and good food. Aside from that, I live a very simple life and I don't anticipate that to change when I begin my career as a physician. Having zero debt and no more than a few bills each month is the greatest thing ever.

I have no desire to work myself to death...no matter what I'm doing. Sure the first few years of any career are going to be spent in the trenches, but work/life balance will improve.. When it does, I'm planning to lead my life the way I currently do. I value travel and experiences over materialistic items and will not work myself to death so I can drive a flashier car or get an unnecessarily bigger house. I didn't always think this way; it wasn't until I really looked into Buddhism that I changed my outlook on life.

When you realize that 95% of your suffering comes from your own desires and longing for things, you'll be well on your way to living a happier life that isn't consumed by money/work.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I'd also like to add...I'd be willing to bet a lot of those people you mentioned in the hospice spent their lives toiling away, working for the man/doing something they weren't passionate about.

Presumably, we're the lucky few who are able to do what they are truly passionate about in life. We get to save lives and improve the health and well-being of those around us. If we so desire, we get to get out there and serve the poorest of the poor and improve their communities. That's so unbelievably awesome. Working 80 hours a week helping your fellow man and following your passion has got to be so much more meaningful than processing TPS reports and slaving away to make some rich corporate a-holes even richer(I'm aware this happens in medicine too).

If your intentions are pure, medicine has got to be one of the most rewarding things around. I feel confident I'll be able to look back when I'm old and gray and feel good about my contributions to the world and know I've done good for the less fortunate amongst us.

 

[cdistel]

I'd also like to add...I'd be willing to bet a lot of those people you mentioned in the hospice spent their lives toiling away, working for the man/doing something they weren't passionate about.

Presumably, we're the lucky few who are able to do what they are truly passionate about in life. We get to save lives and improve the health and well-being of those around us. If we so desire, we get to get out there and serve the poorest of the poor and improve their communities. That's so unbelievably awesome. Working 80 hours a week helping your fellow man and following your passion has got to be so much more meaningful than processing TPS reports and slaving away to make some rich corporate a-holes even richer(I'm aware this happens in medicine too).

If your intentions are pure, medicine has got to be one of the most rewarding things around. I feel confident I'll be able to look back when I'm old and gray and feel good about my contributions to the world and know I've done good for the less fortunate amongst us.

Well put

 

[Limvostov]

I'll second the above. I'm leaving a good career for medical school. Despite the successes I've had, I live as if I was making 40k a year...granted, I will splurge on travel and good food. Aside from that, I live a very simple life and I don't anticipate that to change when I begin my career as a physician. Having zero debt and no more than a few bills each month is the greatest thing ever.

I have no desire to work myself to death...no matter what I'm doing. Sure the first few years of any career are going to be spent in the trenches, but work/life balance will improve.. When it does, I'm planning to lead my life the way I currently do. I value travel and experiences over materialistic items and will not work myself to death so I can drive a flashier car or get an unnecessarily bigger house. I didn't always think this way; it wasn't until I really looked into Buddhism that I changed my outlook on life.

When you realize that 95% of your suffering comes from your own desires and longing for things, you'll be well on your way to living a happier life that isn't consumed by money/work.

I agree, you don't have to work that hard or that many hours to have enough to get by... once your loans are paid off. However, life comes at you fast and you will likely need more money than you have now to maintain a similar lifestyle once you are married and have a family. Also, even if you do a three year residency the 7 years of training will wear on you and at the end of that you have to work to establish your practice for about another 2-3 years before it gets into the "smooth sailing" days. So ... rememeber when you see all of your non-physician friends enjoying that decade in their 20's and 30's and having a great time you will be working 80 hours a week ... every week for a very long time and that special time in your younger years will be spent writing notes, so many notes. I question my decision for this career more and more as I go for a week or more at a time without seeing my daughter because the hours I am home are not when she is awake. Life is short and this career will eat a solid portion of it even if you take the shortest route possible.

It's even harder when the majority of the people you spend endless hours caring for are largely wasting your time. They will not change, but the notes must be written. Meaningful use must be shown, and you are too far in debt shackled by your past decisions to make any other choice than to continue working. All the while, the ones that really matter to you go on barely knowing you, and sometimes even resenting you for the decision you made to pursue this career. At times you will find yourself in a rough patch where your're a stranger to your own children, distant from your spouse, and loathing your work all because there is no end in sight to what you must do to keep going and pay off the debt you've accrued. Thankfully my wife and family are very patient and supportive.

In short, there is no work/life balance to be had. You can only hope that when you are not at work you are able to find the time and energy to positively impact and connect with those who stick by your side through it all and hope that when the dust settles you can rebuild what you had to sacrifice to the career you found yourself in.

 

[deleted407021]

Some neat perspectives here.

There are hospitalist and neonatologist jobs, among other specialities, which are 7 on 7 off, 5 on 5 off, 4 on 4 off, and many with more convoluted schedules than that. You might not have a life for a week, but for the next week, you're free to do as you please with that 180k+ salary. The caveat might be that your family would have to live by your schedule but I'm sure a healthy family could make the appropriate compromises.

 

[nontrad78]

I agree, you don't have to work that hard or that many hours to have enough to get by... once your loans are paid off. However, life comes at you fast and you will likely need more money than you have now to maintain a similar lifestyle once you are married and have a family. Also, even if you do a three year residency the 7 years of training will wear on you and at the end of that you have to work to establish your practice for about another 2-3 years before it gets into the "smooth sailing" days. So ... rememeber when you see all of your non-physician friends enjoying that decade in their 20's and 30's and having a great time you will be working 80 hours a week ... every week for a very long time and that special time in your younger years will be spent writing notes, so many notes. I question my decision for this career more and more as I go for a week or more at a time without seeing my daughter because the hours I am home are not when she is awake. Life is short and this career will eat a solid portion of it even if you take the shortest route possible.

It's even harder when the majority of the people you spend endless hours caring for are largely wasting your time. They will not change, but the notes must be written. Meaningful use must be shown, and you are too far in debt shackled by your past decisions to make any other choice than to continue working. All the while, the ones that really matter to you go on barely knowing you, and sometimes even resenting you for the decision you made to pursue this career. At times you will find yourself in a rough patch where your're a stranger to your own children, distant from your spouse, and loathing your work all because there is no end in sight to what you must do to keep going and pay off the debt you've accrued. Thankfully my wife and family are very patient and supportive.

In short, there is no work/life balance to be had. You can only hope that when you are not at work you are able to find the time and energy to positively impact and connect with those who stick by your side through it all and hope that when the dust settles you can rebuild what you had to sacrifice to the career you found yourself in.

Condolences about the family difficulties. I'll be in a similar boat in a little over 4 years.
Care to share what specialty your residency is in?

 

[doapplicant2015]

I agree, you don't have to work that hard or that many hours to have enough to get by... once your loans are paid off. However, life comes at you fast and you will likely need more money than you have now to maintain a similar lifestyle once you are married and have a family. Also, even if you do a three year residency the 7 years of training will wear on you and at the end of that you have to work to establish your practice for about another 2-3 years before it gets into the "smooth sailing" days. So ... rememeber when you see all of your non-physician friends enjoying that decade in their 20's and 30's and having a great time you will be working 80 hours a week ... every week for a very long time and that special time in your younger years will be spent writing notes, so many notes. I question my decision for this career more and more as I go for a week or more at a time without seeing my daughter because the hours I am home are not when she is awake. Life is short and this career will eat a solid portion of it even if you take the shortest route possible.

It's even harder when the majority of the people you spend endless hours caring for are largely wasting your time. They will not change, but the notes must be written. Meaningful use must be shown, and you are too far in debt shackled by your past decisions to make any other choice than to continue working. All the while, the ones that really matter to you go on barely knowing you, and sometimes even resenting you for the decision you made to pursue this career. At times you will find yourself in a rough patch where your're a stranger to your own children, distant from your spouse, and loathing your work all because there is no end in sight to what you must do to keep going and pay off the debt you've accrued. Thankfully my wife and family are very patient and supportive.

In short, there is no work/life balance to be had. You can only hope that when you are not at work you are able to find the time and energy to positively impact and connect with those who stick by your side through it all and hope that when the dust settles you can rebuild what you had to sacrifice to the career you found yourself in.

Would your perspective be different if you had no loans to pay off?

 

[yanks26dmb]

I agree, you don't have to work that hard or that many hours to have enough to get by... once your loans are paid off. However, life comes at you fast and you will likely need more money than you have now to maintain a similar lifestyle once you are married and have a family. Also, even if you do a three year residency the 7 years of training will wear on you and at the end of that you have to work to establish your practice for about another 2-3 years before it gets into the "smooth sailing" days. So ... rememeber when you see all of your non-physician friends enjoying that decade in their 20's and 30's and having a great time you will be working 80 hours a week ... every week for a very long time and that special time in your younger years will be spent writing notes, so many notes. I question my decision for this career more and more as I go for a week or more at a time without seeing my daughter because the hours I am home are not when she is awake. Life is short and this career will eat a solid portion of it even if you take the shortest route possible.

It's even harder when the majority of the people you spend endless hours caring for are largely wasting your time. They will not change, but the notes must be written. Meaningful use must be shown, and you are too far in debt shackled by your past decisions to make any other choice than to continue working. All the while, the ones that really matter to you go on barely knowing you, and sometimes even resenting you for the decision you made to pursue this career. At times you will find yourself in a rough patch where your're a stranger to your own children, distant from your spouse, and loathing your work all because there is no end in sight to what you must do to keep going and pay off the debt you've accrued. Thankfully my wife and family are very patient and supportive.

In short, there is no work/life balance to be had. You can only hope that when you are not at work you are able to find the time and energy to positively impact and connect with those who stick by your side through it all and hope that when the dust settles you can rebuild what you had to sacrifice to the career you found yourself in.

While you are a resident and clearly have more direct insight than I do, this seems a bit over the top. I've had physicians in the family, as well as a couple of friends. I've seen their lives during residency and beyond. Sure it's a lot of hours and work...but I never once heard/saw the doom and gloom that you portray. I realize this is just your opinion. This doesn't make your perception false, but I think it's silly to assume everyone perceives this life in the same manner you do (particularly the bolded). I've never once been told by any physician I know that there was no work/life balance. Just my experiences...

That said, I do think starting medical school at this point in my life as afforded me some advantages. I fully experienced my 20's, traveled the world, and got to enjoy my "youth". I've also been accustomed to working 70 hour weeks the first few years after my business launched, so long hours don't bother me if it's something Im passionate about. I also have a very supportive wife with physicians in the family, so she knows what is in store. Now, if I had come straight from undergrad, and spent my entire 20's killing myself in a way I've never had to work before, while watching all my friends take cool trips and have fun....yeah, I'd probably be pretty F-ing bitter about it. But like I said, it's all perspective and mindset.

 

[Limvostov]

While you are a resident and clearly have more direct insight than I do, this seems a bit over the top. I've had physicians in the family, as well as a couple of friends. I've seen their lives during residency and beyond. Sure it's a lot of hours and work...but I never once heard/saw the doom and gloom that you portray. I realize this is just your opinion. This doesn't make your perception false, but I think it's silly to assume everyone perceives this life in the same manner you do (particularly the bolded). I've never once been told by any physician I know that there was no work/life balance. Just my experiences...

That said, I do think starting medical school at this point in my life as afforded me some advantages. I fully experienced my 20's, traveled the world, and got to enjoy my "youth". I've also been accustomed to working 70 hour weeks the first few years after my business launched, so long hours don't bother me if it's something Im passionate about. I also have a very supportive wife with physicians in the family, so she knows what is in store. Now, if I had come straight from undergrad, and spent my entire 20's killing myself in a way I've never had to work before, while watching all my friends take cool trips and have fun....yeah, I'd probably be pretty F-ing bitter about it. But like I said, it's all perspective and mindset.

I'm not a traditional student either. However, the work week of 80 hrs (for me is typically averaged out to around 75) is not all it seems. This is very program dependent of course. On a typical month I will see my daughter for about 1-2hrs three nights a week and then for a full day once a week as long as I am not also studying for boards, writing presentations, reading all the papers I couldn't get to during the week, finishing clinic notes, returning patient phone calls from clinic (who harass the MA's at the resident clinic all week until I have a "day off" so I can actually call them back about not filling their narcs/benzos early), mandatory resident meetings, mandatory OMT night clinics, required in-service exam prep questions, logging all procedures and work hours, oh and that thing on the back burner of my career... reading for the specialty I actually want to learn about and do someday. Your 75 hours quickly becomes much more than 75hrs, but if you were to actually log your real hours you would hear from your residency director and be told to find a way to clean up that work hours log book. So a typical day for me looks like this: up at 5:15a, hospital by 5:50a, leave hospital by 7p unless there is required night clinic or residency meetings then I leave at 9p, come home for bath time and reading, daughter goes to bed at 9p, I read/workout to 11p, watch the daily show or other 30min mind numbing show... repeat x6, then take a day off catching up on life and paperwork/calls/reading. Now, mixed in those days are these little 1 hour breaks where you are not at "scheduled" clinic, but you have to be back to the hospital so that is the time to get a haircut, eat, buy some flowers or something nice for dinner, make backlogged phone calls, basically its your time to breathe and keep your life together between days off, but it's not work... nor is it play. Mirror this lifestyle with your other friends in your college graduating class who have been working 8-5 with weekends off, few business meetings a quarter, vacation time that they get to choose. They actually manage to celebrate holidays on time, go hunting, camping, own a boat... and use it before they're 40 and graying, attend church regularly and participate in the congregation, go to their kid's events, have real hobbies. They don't get paid like a physician would, but they get paid well and have been for the past 3/4 decade without all the debt and long hours. This is a life that I had before medical school when I was an engineer with them and I gave that up for what I have now, which by many standards is also very good and I do appreciate the career in many ways.

This month is a particularly bad month. I've been at a required away rotation so I've slept 3 nights at home this month and I have one more to look forward to. The hours are long at this rotation so driving home is not a feasible option. Family can visit if they want to make the 90 minute drive to see me from 7-9p and rush home for a late bedtime as they cannot stay at the resident apartment per obviously required rules and a general courtesy to my colleagues. They did come up once so that was nice. I have never seen my daughter in her Halloween costume as I've always been gone for that holiday. This was the first year that she asked about me and cried when I could not come home and take her around in her princess outfit. I shouldn't even be complaining about the time I've been on the road as my five months in the past two years is nothing compared to some of the other residents who have racked up double that much time for their training. Some of them have more kids than I as well and we discuss our struggles of parenting, the power struggles of being absent so frequently, and the constant feelings of inadequacy as father's who exist through the phone or skype.

So, is it worth it? I want to hope so. Is it manageable? Sure, I can manage anything, just like any other resident. Does it come at a cost? Unfortunately, yes it does. Could I work less than I currently do... ya, but then my reputation for being organized and professional would suffer. Would I do it over again? ... bad question. What will I do to make it good? Keep working hard to do the best in each aspect of my life with the time I have and hope that in the end someone notices that I'm doing the best I can with the cards I have to work with, but I'm going to be at this table playing a long time before I'm out of the hole.

 

[yanks26dmb]

I'm not a traditional student either. However, the work week of 80 hrs (for me is typically averaged out to around 75) is not all it seems. This is very program dependent of course. On a typical month I will see my daughter for about 1-2hrs three nights a week and then for a full day once a week as long as I am not also studying for boards, writing presentations, reading all the papers I couldn't get to during the week, finishing clinic notes, returning patient phone calls from clinic (who harass the MA's at the resident clinic all week until I have a "day off" so I can actually call them back about not filling their narcs/benzos early), mandatory resident meetings, mandatory OMT night clinics, required in-service exam prep questions, logging all procedures and work hours, oh and that thing on the back burner of my career... reading for the specialty I actually want to learn about and do someday. Your 75 hours quickly becomes much more than 75hrs, but if you were to actually log your real hours you would hear from your residency director and be told to find a way to clean up that work hours log book. So a typical day for me looks like this: up at 5:15a, hospital by 5:50a, leave hospital by 7p unless there is required night clinic or residency meetings then I leave at 9p, come home for bath time and reading, daughter goes to bed at 9p, I read/workout to 11p, watch the daily show or other 30min mind numbing show... repeat x6, then take a day off catching up on life and paperwork/calls/reading. Now, mixed in those days are these little 1 hour breaks where you are not at "scheduled" clinic, but you have to be back to the hospital so that is the time to get a haircut, eat, buy some flowers or something nice for dinner, make backlogged phone calls, basically its your time to breathe and keep your life together between days off, but it's not work... nor is it play. Mirror this lifestyle with your other friends in your college graduating class who have been working 8-5 with weekends off, few business meetings a quarter, vacation time that they get to choose. They actually manage to celebrate holidays on time, go hunting, camping, own a boat... and use it before they're 40 and graying, attend church regularly and participate in the congregation, go to their kid's events, have real hobbies. They don't get paid like a physician would, but they get paid well and have been for the past 3/4 decade without all the debt and long hours. This is a life that I had before medical school when I was an engineer with them and I gave that up for what I have now, which by many standards is also very good and I do appreciate the career in many ways.

This month is a particularly bad month. I've been at a required away rotation so I've slept 3 nights at home this month and I have one more to look forward to. The hours are long at this rotation so driving home is not a feasible option. Family can visit if they want to make the 90 minute drive to see me from 7-9p and rush home for a late bedtime as they cannot stay at the resident apartment per obviously required rules and a general courtesy to my colleagues. They did come up once so that was nice. I have never seen my daughter in her Halloween costume as I've always been gone for that holiday. This was the first year that she asked about me and cried when I could not come home and take her around in her princess outfit. I shouldn't even be complaining about the time I've been on the road as my five months in the past two years is nothing compared to some of the other residents who have racked up double that much time for their training. Some of them have more kids than I as well and we discuss our struggles of parenting, the power struggles of being absent so frequently, and the constant feelings of inadequacy as father's who exist through the phone or skype.

So, is it worth it? I want to hope so. Is it manageable? Sure, I can manage anything, just like any other resident. Does it come at a cost? Unfortunately, yes it does. Could I work less than I currently do... ya, but then my reputation for being organized and professional would suffer. Would I do it over again? ... bad question. What will I do to make it good? Keep working hard to do the best in each aspect of my life with the time I have and hope that in the end someone notices that I'm doing the best I can with the cards I have to work with, but I'm going to be at this table playing a long time before I'm out of the hole.

Would you mind sharing what field you are in? Do you anticipate your life being this hectic after finishing your residency?

 

[Limvostov]

Would your perspective be different if you had no loans to pay off?

No, I'd still be doing what I am doing now. Once I start something, I finish it. However, knowing that you can't change paths without significant financial ruin is a burden that many in this field carry. We all know it's too late to turn back once you're 200k in the hole.

 

[Limvostov]

Would you mind sharing what field you are in? Do you anticipate your life being this hectic after finishing your residency?

I'm in internal medicine. I expect that after fellowship the first 2-6 years of my career will be busy joining a practice and earning my keep. Things will mellow when I'm in my early 40's or when my oldest is about 10-12. If I decide to stop all this nonsense I'll be a hospitalist and work 7 on and 7 off which is a good life, but the job is so unsatisfying I just keep hoping I can juggle a few more years of this and do something more procedural. However, I'm starting to wonder more frequently the value of a job if it keeps you from what you really care about. Well, back to the floor ...