Is Dermatology residency possible for indian medical students

[Prince090]

I'm not being mean, I'm being mean. I spent 22 years of my life growing up in South Asia. And i saw one thing repeatedly:
girls going to med school at 18 only to get good "rishtas" (proposals) so they can be married by the time theyre 23 and out of med school.
There is no such thing as doctor patient confidentiality
There is no such thing as bedside manner, you'd be surprised at how doctors speak to patients
The majority of them want to come to the US, the easiest way to America is to become a doctor and take whatever residency you land, because in all seriously when you go back to india/pakistan all you have to say is im a doctor in america and bham you're considered a demi god.

And all that is fine, what infuriates me is that we have to work so hard here, that everyone has this MD/DO debate going on about who is smarter, who has better shots at residencies blah blah when our system gives img's the same recognition as an MD degree but still continue to criticize DO degrees as not being up to par with MD.
A medical degree in indi and pakistn is called MBBS, fresh out of HS with none of the experiences we have here so tell me how is that degree equivalent to MD or DO degrees here?

India and Pakistan , both are developing countries with some serious problems. I get that.

Majority of the people don't date or fornicate in those countries. Marriages usually happen with the approval of parents. Getting a good education means that one is improving his/her social standing in the society.

Better social standing= better proposals. You, as desi know how systems work in those countries. I don't know why are you bringing these topics. You can't simply expect from people who are born and raised in U.S to understand the socio-economic dynamics of those two countries. Their culture , tradition and general values are completely different for the most part.

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[W19]

I'm not being mean, I'm being mean. I spent 22 years of my life growing up in South Asia. And i saw one thing repeatedly:
girls going to med school at 18 only to get good "rishtas" (proposals) so they can be married by the time theyre 23 and out of med school.
There is no such thing as doctor patient confidentiality
There is no such thing as bedside manner, you'd be surprised at how doctors speak to patients
The majority of them want to come to the US, the easiest way to America is to become a doctor and take whatever residency you land, because in all seriously when you go back to india/pakistan all you have to say is im a doctor in america and bham you're considered a demi god.

And all that is fine, what infuriates me is that we have to work so hard here, that everyone has this MD/DO debate going on about who is smarter, who has better shots at residencies blah blah when our system gives img's the same recognition as an MD degree but still continue to criticize DO degrees as not being up to par with MD.
A medical degree in indi and pakistn is called MBBS, fresh out of HS with none of the experiences we have here so tell me how is that degree equivalent to MD or DO degrees here?

I guess they just confer them the MD degree. As far as I know, there aren't that many countries in the world that have the US system (4+4 and 3+ residency). Most countries have the 6 years after HS. I remember seeing a study that concluded that AMG are not 'better' than these FMG; therefore, US physicians are spending these extra two years with no added benefit. Most physicians would tell you residency is what MOSTLY make one a good physician (at least the ones I worked with told me that). When I was studying for the MCAT, my cousin who is an FMG told me most of the stuffs that I am studying were covered during his first year of med school. But he had to study for step one for 6 months because he said they did not go in depth in biochem/genetics, histology etc...

If I had the power, I would design a 6 years (3+3) curriculum (no underaged degree required), but that's the system we have right now, so everyone has to get on with it... I understand your frustration that some people short circuit the process and yet got the same reward...

Medicine remains a very conservative profession in the US... Changes are hard to come by!

End of rant/

 

[twospadz]

You can whine all you want but your concerns are not being shared by the people who accept IMG's over here. IMG's make 1/3 of U.S physician population. You should at least show some amount of respect. The reason that they are working over here is because of their hard work. And what is exactly wrong in improving one's living standard ? Why are you hell bent in demonizing them as if they are subhuman in pursing their dreams.......

Don't get it twisted. They are working here because the American people taxes are going towards training residents. And they are capitalizing on the system. And its ok if someone pursues their dreams. But his dream for dermatology is mainly to make money and obtain prestige. Therefore, there is no reason for OP to deserve a derm spot over a American student who actually plays by the rules. Stop being naive.

 

[W19]

Don't get it twisted. They are working here because the American people taxes are going towards training residents. And they are capitalizing on the system. And its ok if someone pursues their dreams. But his dream for dermatology is mainly to make money and obtain prestige. Stop being naive.

It's still a dream! I think people in SDN should stop questioning other people's motive...

 

[masaraksh]

Don't get it twisted. They are working here because the American people taxes are going towards training residents. And they are capitalizing on the system. And its ok if someone pursues their dreams. But his dream for dermatology is mainly to make money and obtain prestige. Therefore, there is no reason for OP to deserve a derm spot over a American student who actually plays by the rules. Stop being naive.

... yeah.... and the motives of the american grads are soooo much more worthy..

 

[twospadz]

It's still a dream! I think people in SDN should stop questioning other people's motive...

Ok. Let him dream. But when he lowers his standards from derm to internal medicine and he ends up not even getting that then he will have wasted years of his life because people couldn't tell him the truth. This whole process from premed to residency is humbling for everyone. OP will just have to learn the hard way.

 

[twospadz]

... yeah.... and the motives of the american grads are soooo much more worthy..

These residency spots are for American grads. He does not deserve a dermatology spot. Period. People are acting like his dreams are noble. If its either him or you, he's gonna pick himself everytime. At the end of the day, most residency directors know American grads deserve the spot over FMGs and thats what ends up happening. Period.

 

[W19]

These residency spots are for American grads. He does not deserve a dermatology spot. Period. People are acting like his dreams are noble. If its either him or you, he's gonna pick himself everytime. At the end of the day, most residency directors know American grads deserve the spot over FMGs and thats what ends up happening. Period.

Why? Do you think he 'deserves' a FM or psych spot?

 

[masaraksh]

American grads get the spots. Doesn't mean they exactly "deserve" them more than FMGs.

I'm a little amazed at all your FMG hate. Nothing wrong with wanting to being an immigrant to america and wanting to practice medicine. However, it does seem reasonable that they can't exactly expect to get into the absolute most competitive specialties in the country.

Also, don't group all FMGs as automatically inferior and "second rate" doctors. Thats just not true. There are orthopaedics attendings at some of the most prestigious centers that are FMGs. I'm sure they're pretty competent docs

 

[thekiterunner89]

These residency spots are for American grads. He does not deserve a dermatology spot. Period. People are acting like his dreams are noble. If its either him or you, he's gonna pick himself everytime. At the end of the day, most residency directors know American grads deserve the spot over FMGs and thats what ends up happening. Period.

I absolutely 100% agree, coming here to do a residency but when that means gettigg a residency at the cost of someone who is an American from an American medical univeristy- that is unacceptable.
we're always hearing of the shortage of doctors etc, but when you train a doctor from another countey and don't end up sponsoring his greencard or work visa beyond residency hes going back to his country and working on his people bec he has no loyalty to America or the american health care system

 

[thekiterunner89]

If only sdn was representative of American opinion. Over half this country is dead against immigration or granting illegal aliens the right to work or study or become naturalized despite being here for decades yet everyone seems like such an eager beaver when it comes to drs coming from india and pakistan to work here.
Okay then..

 

[twospadz]

Why? Do you think he 'deserves' a FM or psych spot?

They don't even deserve psych or family medicine. But they end up matching into these because AMGs usually dont want these spots or there are not enough AMGs who apply for them. FMGs get second pick.

 

[royalmedicus]

Ok. Let him dream. But when he lowers his standards from derm to internal medicine

this argument has unlocked a whole new level. if one chooses internal medicine, one has lowered his/her standards????

 

[royalmedicus]

They don't even deserve psych or family medicine. But they end up matching into these because AMGs usually dont want these spots or there are not enough AMGs who apply for them. FMGs get second pick.

let the programs decide who deserves what. PDs are not stupid. they accept an FMG only if he/she is as competent as an AMG for that particular spot.

besides, why are you all whining about FMGs costing american taxpayers and all? keep in mind, FMGs dont just get accepted in residency and then go live in Hawaii mooching off of precious american money. FMGs get paid for their WORK, they dont get alms, its not begging. stop this nonsense. what they do in residency is training+work.

 

[Iridescent]

Well that escalated quickly

 

[Baller MD]

let the programs decide who deserves what. PDs are not stupid. they accept an FMG only if he/she is as competent as an AMG for that particular spot.

besides, why are you all whining about FMGs costing american taxpayers and all? keep in mind, FMGs dont just get accepted in residency and then go live in Hawaii mooching off of precious american money. FMGs get paid for their WORK, they dont get alms, its not begging. stop this nonsense. what they do in residency is training+work.

A lot of them go back to their home country to practice.

 

[twospadz]

this argument has unlocked a whole new level. if one chooses internal medicine, one has lowered his/her standards????

In his case yes, because he wants dermatology. Most FMGs realize they become doctors here by possibly getting into internal medicine (not always). Which is a path OP might end up taking. Im not saying internal medicine is better or worse than dermatology so don't nit pick my words. Dermatology is more competitive than internal medicine hands down unless you want to senselessly argue that.

 

[twospadz]

let the programs decide who deserves what. PDs are not stupid. they accept an FMG only if he/she is as competent as an AMG for that particular spot.

besides, why are you all whining about FMGs costing american taxpayers and all? keep in mind, FMGs dont just get accepted in residency and then go live in Hawaii mooching off of precious american money. FMGs get paid for their WORK, they dont get alms, its not begging. stop this nonsense. what they do in residency is training+work.

Your naïve. Most of the time they will pick the AMG over the FMGs. In few cases they will pick the FMG. However, the system favors AMGs so stop trying to make it seem like AMG and FMGs are on the same playing field.
Also, stop acting like if you applied to be a doctor in a different country you would get the same chance as their citizens. In some countries, even if you went to the med school, you wouldn't be able to practice as a doctor. Foreign countries have med schools to train their own citizens to become doctors not foreigners. Once again stop being so naïve.

 

[Mad Jack]

Unless you are the top student at the top school in India and score a 260+ with a pile of pubs, good connections, and letters from the best people in the field, no.

 

[kenjixshadow]

Unless you are the top student at the top school in India and score a 260+ with a pile of pubs, good connections, and letters from the best people in the field, no.

Jack, he wants us to tell him yes. You know, being positive and everything lol.

Well that escalated quickly

 

[thekiterunner89]

Unless you are the top student at the top school in India and score a 260+ with a pile of pubs, good connections, and letters from the best people in the field, no.

Untrue. You don't need publications as an img/fmg. Speaking from experience- there is no such thing as "research" for med students or doctors in Pakistan or India, anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to make themselves sound smart.
Google some med schools there and read how many med schools actually engage in research. You'll get your answer.

Also, sponsoring someones work visa requires dhs, ice and uscis approval which means they need to work which means they need to get paid and well, someone is paying them..

 

[thekiterunner89]

Funnily i know abt 9 doctors from Pakistan who came last year for IM residencies.
Maybe 10 but idk what the 10th one is doing as she got married to a US citizen and came here.

 

[thekiterunner89]

And about 3 from India. Again doing Internal Medicine.

 

[thekiterunner89]

What I don't understand or agree with is that a Bachelors degree, a Masters in education, a phD even isn't recognized from Pakistan and India because of the "low standards" so why the hell is a medical degree recognized.

 

[masaraksh]

A lot of them go back to their home country to practice.

citation?

 

[royalmedicus]

why the hell is a medical degree recognized.

come on, its recognized only AFTER finishing usa requirements like usmle, interview and what not. its not like after finishing MBBS, FMGs just roll out of bed and fall into american hospitals.

OPs attitude and knowledge may limit his options, but that dosent mean all FMGs are under-trained and not competent.

 

[Mad Jack]

Untrue. You don't need publications as an img/fmg. Speaking from experience- there is no such thing as "research" for med students or doctors in Pakistan or India, anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to make themselves sound smart.
Google some med schools there and read how many med schools actually engage in research. You'll get your answer.

Also, sponsoring someones work visa requires dhs, ice and uscis approval which means they need to work which means they need to get paid and well, someone is paying them..

The research is done after medical school, generally. Some people do years of research to get into derm. As to visa sponsorship, thousands of people get their visas sponsored every year as residents, it isn't exactly impossible.

 

[Mad Jack]

What I don't understand or agree with is that a Bachelors degree, a Masters in education, a phD even isn't recognized from Pakistan and India because of the "low standards" so why the hell is a medical degree recognized.

We recognize foreign medical degrees if the physician manages to pass the boards. This shows the minimal level of competency to enter residency. Residency is what makes a physician capable of practicing medicine.

 

[thekiterunner89]

citation?

Check out uscis statistics on work visa extension and greencards given

 

[thekiterunner89]

We recognize foreign medical degrees if the physician manages to pass the boards. This shows the minimal level of competency to enter residency. Residency is what makes a physician capable of practicing medicine.

I didn't say it was impossible to get a visa sponsorship.
My only point here is that in last years match 3000 doctors who were us citizens who graduated from med schools in the US didn't get residency. Instead of bringing in people who speak broken English into our country to practise in our hospitals why don't we give OUR doctors the chance first.
Given Ameericans residency should take priority, not some jock from Pakistan with a good score.

 

[masaraksh]

can you define jock?

 

[thekiterunner89]

can you define jock?

Its a urdu/hindi word I'm thinking of I can't think of an English word for it other than jock.

 

[Mad Jack]

I didn't say it was impossible to get a visa sponsorship.
My only point here is that in last years match 3000 doctors who were us citizens who graduated from med schools in the US didn't get residency. Instead of bringing in people who speak broken English into our country to practise in our hospitals why don't we give OUR doctors the chance first.
Given Ameericans residency should take priority, not some jock from Pakistan with a good score.

We should be taking the best and the brightest from wherever they happen to come from. Given the choice between an exceptional foreign grad and a marginal US graduate, a PD should take the more qualified of the two. The big reason OP is going to have so much trouble matching derm is that there is an abundance of well-qualified US grads applying. In less competitive fields, OP might be up against marginal candidates from the US and stand a decent chance.

As to broken English, that's a fairly racist thing to say. I've worked with many, many foreign graduates over the years, and the vast majority of them speak English perfectly fine. You kind of have to be proficient if you plan on passing the Steps.

 

[thekiterunner89]

We should be taking the best and the brightest from wherever they happen to come from. Given the choice between an exceptional foreign grad and a marginal US graduate, a PD should take the more qualified of the two. The big reason OP is going to have so much trouble matching derm is that there is an abundance of well-qualified US grads applying. In less competitive fields, OP might be up against marginal candidates from the US and stand a decent chance.

As to broken English, that's a fairly racist thing to say. I've worked with many, many foreign graduates over the years, and the vast majority of them speak English perfectly fine. You kind of have to be proficient if you plan on passing the Steps.

Is it racism if it's against your own people per say? Lol

 

[Mad Jack]

Is it racism if it's against your own people per say? Lol

Whether they're your own people or not does not make change the discriminatory nature of your statement. It's also super ironic when you, yourself, use phrases such as "per say" instead of "per se" while criticizing the supposed broken English of others. Some of the best physicians I've ever worked with were from India. I wish we had more room for their best, as well as the best students from all countries. Unfortunately, in the near future, many specialties are going to look like dermatology does to the OP right now- saturated with qualified US grads due to US school expansion. This'll give us a glut of marginal candidates from the US at the expense of many exceptional candidates from abroad.

 

[thekiterunner89]

Whether they're your own people or not does not make change the discriminatory nature of your statement. It's also super ironic when you, yourself, use phrases such as "per say" instead of "per se" while criticizing the supposed broken English of others. Some of the best physicians I've ever worked with were from India. I wish we had more room for their best, as well as the best students from all countries. Unfortunately, in the near future, many specialties are going to look like dermatology does to the OP right now- saturated with qualified US grads due to US school expansion. This'll give us a glut of marginal candidates from the US at the expense of many exceptional candidates from abroad.

Not being able to spell isn't the same as being fluent in spoken English. I also didn't notice i did that, thank you for pointing it out- ill pay closer attn to how i type on an informal platform next time.

 

[MedWonk]

It's still a dream! I think people in SDN should stop questioning other people's motive...

For a second I thought you were streampaw.

 

[royalmedicus]

US didn't get residency. Instead of bringing in people who speak broken English into our country to practise in our hospitals why don't we give OUR doctors the chance first.

have you met any FMG resident in the USA with 'broken' english? or are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

 

[thekiterunner89]

have you met any FMG resident in the USA with 'broken' english? or are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

I have. At the hosp I volunteered at. The entire IM dept was made up of indians from India who came to do their residency.

 

[Prince090]

Whether they're your own people or not does not make change the discriminatory nature of your statement. It's also super ironic when you, yourself, use phrases such as "per say" instead of "per se" while criticizing the supposed broken English of others. Some of the best physicians I've ever worked with were from India. I wish we had more room for their best, as well as the best students from all countries. Unfortunately, in the near future, many specialties are going to look like dermatology does to the OP right now- saturated with qualified US grads due to US school expansion. This'll give us a glut of marginal candidates from the US at the expense of many exceptional candidates from abroad.

The person you are replying to is either a classical ABCD( American born confused desi) or an individual that belongs to a rich family from South Asia that accumulated wealth by extorting poor people from their hard earned money. The mere fact that he is studying in a US medical school clearly depicts his financial position.

People like him tend to have very low opinion of their fellow country. They look down upon them as peasants and farmers who can't read or write.

Unfortunately, people like him tend to forget their roots once they hit shores of a western country. They try very hard to fit in. In this process, to look cool , they start to bash the culture , tradition and system. They don't spare a single opportunity to bash the country from where they originally are. They are filled with self hate and disgust.

You can just see for yourself how this particular user has brought topics and statements that doesn't even address the reason this thread was created .

From " girls attending med school to find better proposals " to " can't even structure single sentence in English " , he is deliberately trying to malign and humiliate people of that part of the world.

You can read previous post of mine on this thread which might help you understand his thought process.

 

[Prince090]

And for the record, American program directors are not stupid. They know who to let in and for what reasons. If a FMG is not satisfying their requirements, he wouldn't be allowed in. Plain and simple.

 

[Psai]

have you met any FMG resident in the USA with 'broken' english? or are you just arguing for the sake of argument?

Is this a real question

 

[masaraksh]

The obsession with prestige, etc in that part of the world is nuts though. There are some crazy parents too - it seems as if for some kids their parents would disown them if they applied family or IM..

I remember I had a friend in undergrad who hated physiology, etc (even though that was his major) and his parents pushed him into med school. He also wasn't a very strong student and ended up in the carribean. Really sad. According to facebook taking step 1 soon..

 

[W19]

@MedWonk Who the heck is streampaw?

 

[twospadz]

We should be taking the best and the brightest from wherever they happen to come from. Given the choice between an exceptional foreign grad and a marginal US graduate, a PD should take the more qualified of the two. The big reason OP is going to have so much trouble matching derm is that there is an abundance of well-qualified US grads applying. In less competitive fields, OP might be up against marginal candidates from the US and stand a decent chance.

As to broken English, that's a fairly racist thing to say. I've worked with many, many foreign graduates over the years, and the vast majority of them speak English perfectly fine. You kind of have to be proficient if you plan on passing the Steps.

You have to be an img. If your at a medical school in the US, you are qualified to pratice medicine. Also, you dont have to be brilliant to be an doctor. A surgeon should be brilliant. But we already have enough brilliant medical school students in the US to fill those residency spots.

 

[Mad Jack]

You have to be an img. If your at a medical school in the US, you are qualified to pratice medicine. Also, you dont have to be brilliant to be an doctor. A surgeon should be brilliant. But we already have enough brilliant medical school students in the US to fill those residency spots.

I'm not an IMG. I'm a medical student in the US. But I advocate strongly for us having the best physicians available for a given job.

If we had more IMG dermatologists, for instance, it'd be a boon to rural and underserved derm patients, as most visas require that they work for 5 years in an underserved area before being granted residency. Boom, just helped address health disparities, and all we had to do was pick somebody foreign over a US citizen. I predict that health disparities are going to become much, much worse as the number of US grads approaches the number of residency positions, and everybody and their cousin wants to move to the cities to practice.

 

[Wordead]

You have to be an img. If your at a medical school in the US, you are qualified to pratice medicine. Also, you dont have to be brilliant to be an doctor. A surgeon should be brilliant. But we already have enough brilliant medical school students in the US to fill those residency spots.

Hes not, nor am I and I agree with him. There is a vast gulf between "qualified", aka a passing student, and someone who is a great physician. And you are very, very backward on surgeons needing to be brilliant but not other physicians. And this is coming from a guy in a surgical subspecialty.

The issue at hand is that we believe the priority is better care for patients and advancing medicine - your priority is ensuring you have a match spot.

 

[thekiterunner89]

The person you are replying to is either a classical ABCD( American born confused desi) or an individual that belongs to a rich family from South Asia that accumulated wealth by extorting poor people from their hard earned money. The mere fact that he is studying in a US medical school clearly depicts his financial position.

People like him tend to have very low opinion of their fellow country. They look down upon them as peasants and farmers who can't read or write.

Unfortunately, people like him tend to forget their roots once they hit shores of a western country. They try very hard to fit in. In this process, to look cool , they start to bash the culture , tradition and system. They don't spare a single opportunity to bash the country from where they originally are. They are filled with self hate and disgust.

You can just see for yourself how this particular user has brought topics and statements that doesn't even address the reason this thread was created .

From " girls attending med school to find better proposals " to " can't even structure single sentence in English " , he is deliberately trying to malign and humiliate people of that part of the world.

You can read previous post of mine on this thread which might help you understand his thought process.

Actuly, I wasn't born in America. My parents don't live in America.

I have more roots in south asia than you, i grew up there, I speak 6 native languages from the south asian region. What I say are facts accumulated by research, observation and understanding.

But glad you jump straight of the bandwagon and call me an Abcd, better than being called a fob LOL

 

[twospadz]

Hes not, nor am I and I agree with him. There is a vast gulf between "qualified", aka a passing student, and someone who is a great physician. And you are very, very backward on surgeons needing to be brilliant but not other physicians. And this is coming from a guy in a surgical subspecialty.

The issue at hand is that we believe the priority is better care for patients and advancing medicine - your priority is ensuring you have a match spot.

Ok. Im glad you have no problem taking the top 5% of physcians from other countries. Despite the fact, we are taking their brilliant physcians and leaving that country with mediocre physcians. That sounds good for us but bad for them. If thats what your advocating, you are allowed to have that opinion.

 

[twospadz]

I'm not an IMG. I'm a medical student in the US. But I advocate strongly for us having the best physicians available for a given job.

If we had more IMG dermatologists, for instance, it'd be a boon to rural and underserved derm patients, as most visas require that they work for 5 years in an underserved area before being granted residency. Boom, just helped address health disparities, and all we had to do was pick somebody foreign over a US citizen. I predict that health disparities are going to become much, much worse as the number of US grads approaches the number of residency positions, and everybody and their cousin wants to move to the cities to practice.

You are so dumb its patethetic. Primary care doctors can treat most skin conditions. It would be more useful to have a primary care doctor than a dermatologist in a rural or underserved area. Imgs dont deserve a dermatology residency spot period.