Is disinterest in OMM/OMT enough reason to not want to go DO?

[PhiPhenomenon]

Hey guys,

If you don't know my background, I'm a non-trad suffering from a mediocre (well, normal people mediocre, 3.1) GPA and trying pretty smelly bad to winde up in a med school in 2-3 years time. I've recently been researching into DO schools and realize that that is probably the best shot I have at practicing medicine within the immediate future. Trust me, I'm extremely grateful to anyone who would teach me the craft of medicine and allow me to practice and I don't really care if the last letters after my name are MD, DO, MBBS or even LOL.

My dilemma comes from the DO practice of OMT and OMM. I don't have a problem with treating a person holistically and understanding their psychosocial background (you are talking to a social worker for heaven's sake) but I do have a problem with the actual manipulation techniques taught at these schools. The research I've gathered from their efficacy seems to suggest their only effective at ameliorating lower back pain and don't have any significant value outside of that. I know it's only one aspect of DO school and you still learn all of the clinically relevant sciences like MD schools but I fear that learning OMT would be a real grind for me. The AOA seems quite adamant that it stay in accredited school curriculum and I fear that if I do go to a DO school and present with the sort of attitude that 'lol OMT are for teh qwacks, ritardz and sientiphically lazee 😀' that I will get a sort of >8[ response from faculty which could surely affect my class standing and career prospects (a bit arrogant on my part, maybe but the many DOs who don't even bother with OMT when they leave school can't all be wrong).

Jejune candor aside, is it foolish of me to not want to go to a DO school on the basis of disliking OMT alone? I bet there are plenty of people who go to a DO school with the mindset 'OMT is bull****' but I don't like the idea of going to a school where you would, pardon the crassness, piss all over the school's philosophy (even though I think medicine is really the biggest component of that philosophy which I absolutely 😍)

I do counter myself with the fact that I am currently working 30 hour weeks while taking a full science course load riddled with weeders and manning a bunch of other ECs just to be able to get into med school anywhere. So maybe I should be able to grin and bear giving up several hundred hours of my life to something I consider pseudoscientific bull**** to be able to practice medicine or no?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Then if you really feel that OMM is for quacks, don't go to D.O. school. It's that simple. If you're going to be a D.O., you have to accept that OMM might be part of being a D.O. forever, although this doesn't mean you must practice it.

The only form of OMM that seems to have conclusive evidence against it is craniosacral osteopathy. The lower back pain has evidence and the rest is still up for debate. Personally, I don't like the idea of craniosacral osteopathy nor that the AOA is unwilling to take it off, but I don't mind much since I know that 50% of the stuff I'll learn in med school will be obsolete anyway by the time I'm an attending. Taking the portion of craniosacral osteopathy in OMM classes is a very minute price to pay in comparison to a full education in medicine.

 

[willen101383]

Hey guys,

If you don't know my background, I'm a non-trad suffering from a mediocre (well, normal people mediocre, 3.1) GPA and trying pretty smelly bad to winde up in a med school in 2-3 years time. I've recently been researching into DO schools and realize that that is probably the best shot I have at practicing medicine within the immediate future. Trust me, I'm extremely grateful to anyone who would teach me the craft of medicine and allow me to practice and I don't really care if the last letters after my name are MD, DO, MBBS or even LOL.

My dilemma comes from the DO practice of OMT and OMM. I don't have a problem with treating a person holistically and understanding their psychosocial background (you are talking to a social worker for heaven's sake) but I do have a problem with the actual manipulation techniques taught at these schools. The research I've gathered from their efficacy seems to suggest their only effective at ameliorating lower back pain and don't have any significant value outside of that. I know it's only one aspect of DO school and you still learn all of the clinically relevant sciences like MD schools but I fear that learning OMT would be a real grind for me. The AOA seems quite adamant that it stay in accredited school curriculum and I fear that if I do go to a DO school and present with the sort of attitude that 'lol OMT are for teh qwacks, ritardz and sientiphically lazee 😀' that I will get a sort of >8[ response from faculty which could surely affect my class standing and career prospects (a bit arrogant on my part, maybe but the many DOs who don't even bother with OMT when they leave school can't all be wrong).

Jejune candor aside, is it foolish of me to not want to go to a DO school on the basis of disliking OMT alone? I bet there are plenty of people who go to a DO school with the mindset 'OMT is bull****' but I don't like the idea of going to a school where you would, pardon the crassness, piss all over the school's philosophy (even though I think medicine is really the biggest component of that philosophy which I absolutely 😍)

I do counter myself with the fact that I am currently working 30 hour weeks while taking a full science course load riddled with weeders and manning a bunch of other ECs just to be able to get into med school anywhere. So maybe I should be able to grin and bear giving up several hundred hours of my life to something I consider pseudoscientific bull**** to be able to practice medicine or no?

It depends on the mindset of the DO school you are applying to. If the school is hell bent on interjecting OMM/the osteopathic philosophy into every class it is going to be absolute misery for you. If OMM is taught in isolation and its only an hour or so a week it may be more tolerable. Also the OMM teaching and attitudes of the OMM faculty are going to be really important in your ability to remain happy at the school. The old guard types (at my school) are miserable. They treat the students disrespectfully, are horrible teachers, and ramble on and on about their own interests vs accept the reality that most students wont use OMM ever again. It makes OMM really hard to swallow. However, there are a few professors who are realists and make OMM really tolerable.

I dont really know how to fully advise you on this topic but I will give you my experience. I started DO school with an open mind...but knew I likely would never use OMM after graduation. Over the course of my first 2 years I started to absolutely hate OMM and dealing with it week after week is hellish. But that is mainly because the faculty (as i mentioned) dont treat us with respect and operate with a massive chip on their shoulder. If the faculty was nice and respectful it would be pretty easy to go to OMM lab and just suck it up. Its basically a social hour anyway. So you need to find out what the faculty is like, and how obsessed the school is with OMM and the philosophy.

I will never use OMM again after I graduate...but at the very least OMM gives you a very very good understanding of the biomechanics of the human body that you really wouldnt be getting at an MD school. And while OMM isnt valuable in my opinion, having an intimate knowledge of how the body moves IS.

Good luck!

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

"Taking the portion of craniosacral osteopathy in OMM classes is a very minute price to pay in comparison to a full education in medicine."

This sums up my sentiments precisely. I was never really sure how seriously DO schools took OMM, considering how it seems more like a formality over an important component of practice for many (not all) DOs, but judging from your response it seems pretty seriously.

*Sigh* It seems you can't escape politics no matter what field you try to work into (although if avoiding politics was my goal medicine was a terrible, terrible choice).

BTW, I am no way implying people who practice OMM are stupid. I have a personal dislike of the idea of practicing anything that is not evidence-based but nothing against people who feel that they prefer such techniques.

 

[572776]

Hey guys,

If you don't know my background, I'm a non-trad suffering from a mediocre (well, normal people mediocre, 3.1) GPA and trying pretty smelly bad to winde up in a med school in 2-3 years time. I've recently been researching into DO schools and realize that that is probably the best shot I have at practicing medicine within the immediate future. Trust me, I'm extremely grateful to anyone who would teach me the craft of medicine and allow me to practice and I don't really care if the last letters after my name are MD, DO, MBBS or even LOL.

My dilemma comes from the DO practice of OMT and OMM. I don't have a problem with treating a person holistically and understanding their psychosocial background (you are talking to a social worker for heaven's sake) but I do have a problem with the actual manipulation techniques taught at these schools. The research I've gathered from their efficacy seems to suggest their only effective at ameliorating lower back pain and don't have any significant value outside of that. I know it's only one aspect of DO school and you still learn all of the clinically relevant sciences like MD schools but I fear that learning OMT would be a real grind for me. The AOA seems quite adamant that it stay in accredited school curriculum and I fear that if I do go to a DO school and present with the sort of attitude that 'lol OMT are for teh qwacks, ritardz and sientiphically lazee 😀' that I will get a sort of >8[ response from faculty which could surely affect my class standing and career prospects (a bit arrogant on my part, maybe but the many DOs who don't even bother with OMT when they leave school can't all be wrong).

Jejune candor aside, is it foolish of me to not want to go to a DO school on the basis of disliking OMT alone? I bet there are plenty of people who go to a DO school with the mindset 'OMT is bull****' but I don't like the idea of going to a school where you would, pardon the crassness, piss all over the school's philosophy (even though I think medicine is really the biggest component of that philosophy which I absolutely 😍)

I do counter myself with the fact that I am currently working 30 hour weeks while taking a full science course load riddled with weeders and manning a bunch of other ECs just to be able to get into med school anywhere. So maybe I should be able to grin and bear giving up several hundred hours of my life to something I consider pseudoscientific bull**** to be able to practice medicine or no?

Even if you got an awesome mcat score, I doubt that any US MD schools would take you...unless you are a serious urm...
your destiny is caribbean

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

It depends on the mindset of the DO school you are applying to. If the school is hell bent on interjecting OMM/the osteopathic philosophy into every class it is going to be absolute misery for you. If OMM is taught in isolation and its only an hour or so a week it may be more tolerable. Also the OMM teaching and attitudes of the OMM faculty are going to be really important in your ability to remain happy at the school. The old guard types (at my school) are miserable. They treat the students disrespectfully, are horrible teachers, and ramble on and on about their own interests vs accept the reality that most students wont use OMM ever again. It makes OMM really hard to swallow. However, there are a few professors who are realists and make OMM really tolerable.

I dont really know how to fully advise you on this topic but I will give you my experience. I started DO school with an open mind...but knew I likely would never use OMM after graduation. Over the course of my first 2 years I started to absolutely hate OMM and dealing with it week after week is hellish. But that is mainly because the faculty (as i mentioned) dont treat us with respect and operate with a massive chip on their shoulder. If the faculty was nice and respectful it would be pretty easy to go to OMM lab and just suck it up. Its basically a social hour anyway. So you need to find out what the faculty is like, and how obsessed the school is with OMM and the philosophy.

I will never use OMM again after I graduate...but at the very least OMM gives you a very very good understanding of the biomechanics of the human body that you really wouldnt be getting at an MD school. And while OMM isnt valuable in my opinion, having an intimate knowledge of how the body moves IS.

Good luck!

Insightful. Thanks willen 👍

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Even if you got an awesome mcat score, I doubt that any US MD schools would take you...unless you are a serious urm...
your destiny is caribbean

Your face is a carribean... I'll let you think about that for a while.

 

[Laiba]

^ LOL

wow.

 

[FutureDoc01]

If I had to do it over again I would have waited a year and retook the MCAT and went for MD. I have the grades, but my MCAT was subpar for MD.

With that said, I dread Wednesdays and spending all morning studying OMM. I think it is a total waste of time and I can't stand it. It seems to always show up when there is ortho or neurology to study. Something that will matter in the future. I'm never going to use it so I don't see the need and studying it.

I have heard rumors at my school about a possible required OMM rotation. I sure hope it doesn't happen while I'm a student. This would take away from electives!

 

[Back 5]

I won't be applying until next year, but as a Chiropractor, I'm very interested in seeing how I feel about OMM class. I have seen plenty of Osteopathic manipulations and I understand that they are fundamentally different than a Chiropractic manipulation in their mechanism, but I'll be darned if they aren't very similar

 

[sylvanthus]

If I had to do it over again I would have waited a year and retook the MCAT and went for MD. I have the grades, but my MCAT was subpar for MD.

With that said, I dread Wednesdays and spending all morning studying OMM. I think it is a total waste of time and I can't stand it. It seems to always show up when there is ortho or neurology to study. Something that will matter in the future. I'm never going to use it so I don't see the need and studying it.

I have heard rumors at my school about a possible required OMM rotation. I sure hope it doesn't happen while I'm a student. This would take away from electives!

Heh I feel ya man, Im on a required OMM rotation right now. Every patient gets a cranial evaluation. God help me.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It's a good enough reason to not want to if given the choice not to.

 

[572776]

Your face is a carribean... I'll let you think about that for a while.

Lmao!!
sorry OP...if you get thirty-something on the mcat you could apply and hope for a post bac. I know a few people who got into my state MD school post bac program with good mcat but their gpa was about 3.3-3.4ish.

 

[aslan]

I'm starting med school this year and had no experience with OMM until the interview cycle. I stayed with a 3rd year at one of the schools I interviewed at, and the subject of my bad ankle came up. (I broke it snowboarding and it hasn't been the same since) He manipulated it and explained why he was doing what he was doing and it all matched up with what I learned in my physio and anatomy classes, and it made my ankle feel better. I walked up stairs pain free for the first time in years. I don't know if I will end up using it in my practice very often but I plan to use on myself and my family. And either way, it will give you good idea of body mechanics and physical exam skills, which are sorely lacking in a lot of MD programs these days (or so I've heard from my good friend Lynn Truss (she's not really my friend, I just read one of her books)).

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Lmao!!
sorry OP...if you get thirty-something on the mcat you could apply and hope for a post bac. I know a few people who got into my state MD school post bac program with good mcat but their gpa was about 3.3-3.4ish.

It's all good man, no hate 🙂

Ugh, I could probably have written a novella in the amount of time I spent reading up on post-bacc/SMP/PhD in hard sciences/Carribean/Australia/'I went to college and ****ed around a lot but I iz totally dedicated and *promise* I won't **** up your med school's prestige nor on the USMLE, just gimme a shot :3' so I know where you're coming from.

The funny thing is that I'm doing my post-bacc now in the hopes I can get my GPA up to about 3.4 (more likely 3.3) but I'm quite comfortablish with my options of being a PA or going into Pharm if I *have* to. But I'm not going to lie, I want the whole enchilada. I'm even willing to brave something I consider ******ed and even at times dangerous pseudoscience to do it... Hello adcoms

 

[guydudcl371]

So I think that you need to realize that there is a lot to gain from the OMM course/lab besides the practice of OMM. At the very least it slaps you in the face with anatomy (yet again). I have also heard several DOs in a variety of specialties comment on the benefits they had as residents and attending physicians compared to their MD colleagues despite never using OMT in their practice. For example, I have heard several stories of DO students outshining MD students when it comes to certain procedures like lumbar punctures because DO students tend to have a more detailed understanding of anatomy and mechanics. Also, the ability to palpate and simply touch a patient with confidence is another added benefit. So if you don't like OMT I do not think that is a deal breaker. However, I do think you should still enter it with a good attitude, because there are still many valuable skills and experiences that you will gain (and that will put you at an advantage) even if you never want to use OMT outside of medical school.

 

[Vancomycin12]

OMM isn't that bad. It's definitely not something to stop you from going to a DO school. It's once a week for 2 yrs...not too bad since, like Triage said, you get a medical education. Personally, I am bored and completely uninterested in OMM. I have a high grade in the class, and it is very difficult, but I more or less just do well in it so that come board time, I will be ready. Only 1 more yr left of it and then i will most likely never use it. except for a great HVLA party trick here and there

 

[Vancomycin12]

So I think that you need to realize that there is a lot to gain from the OMM course/lab besides the practice of OMM. At the very least it slaps you in the face with anatomy (yet again). I have also heard several DOs in a variety of specialties comment on the benefits they had as residents and attending physicians compared to their MD colleagues despite never using OMT in their practice. For example, I have heard several stories of DO students outshining MD students when it comes to certain procedures like lumbar punctures because DO students tend to have a more detailed understanding of anatomy and mechanics. Also, the ability to palpate and simply touch a patient with confidence is another added benefit. So if you don't like OMT I do not think that is a deal breaker. However, I do think you should still enter it with a good attitude, because there are still many valuable skills and experiences that you will gain (and that will put you at an advantage) even if you never want to use OMT outside of medical school.

this is what I meant to add to my post. As much as I am disinterested in it, I honestly can't imagine an MD student ever having the hands on skills i have just from 1 yr of medical school. My anatomy is on point as well because every week you are reviewing and palpating specific areas on multiple people. I definitely feel it gives me the advantage in this regard

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

It's interesting that so many osteopaths here aren't even planning to use OMM but not surprising. If you guys are the future of osteopathy, the future looks bright or at least honest.

 

[willen101383]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

It's interesting that so many osteopaths here aren't even planning to use OMM but not surprising. If you guys are the future of osteopathy, the future looks bright or at least honest.

Most DO students wont use OMM in their routine clinical practice after graduation. I would only estimate about 5% of my class drinks the koolaid.

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Most DO students wont use OMM in their routine clinical practice after graduation. I would only estimate about 5% of my class drinks the koolaid.

HAHA!

Brutally honest apparently! I think this thread actually made DO school look more attractive.

 

[group_theory]

The only times I've used OMT were on residents (when I was still a resident), nurses, some attendings, and a few MD med students. All were for MSK complaints. I don't do OMT on patients. The residents/nurses/attendings/students love the procedures that I do (it gives them immediate relief)

Last time I "studied" or reviewed OMT was for COMLEX Step 3.
The benefits of doing an ACGME residency and now fellowship 😀

I think I have had a total of 3 patients throughout residency/fellowship ask me what's a DO (contrary to what you read in the Pre-Allo forums, you would think I get asked about this every other patient).



*Your location indicates Vancouver. British Columbia allows for registration and full licensure of US trained DOs. You have to register with the College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia. There is a separate licensure process for US DOs who wish to do manual medicine (instead of the traditional medicine). British Columbia do not recognize non-US trained DOs (there are schools of osteopathy in Canada)

However, check out this advisory (posted in red) from the BC Osteopathic Association

ADVISORY:

If you are considering completing your post-graduate training in the USA, it is important that you make sure that your program is approved by the ACGME (Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education) or is dually AOA/ACGME accredited in order to facilitate registration in Canada . As not all US residency programs are equivalent to Canadian programs, you must also be certain that your residency program is equivalent in content and duration in order to be recognized for certification by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada. Further fellowship training may be required in some instances.

 

[Vancomycin12]

Most DO students wont use OMM in their routine clinical practice after graduation. I would only estimate about 5% of my class drinks the koolaid.

I couldnt agree more. Probably only like 1-3 students in my class of 140 will even consider omm as a specialty

 

[willen101383]

HAHA!

Brutally honest apparently! I think this thread actually made DO school look more attractive.

You need to be honest to nullify all the insane rabid DO supporters.

 

[sylvanthus]

Aye, people can be honest on here, but in real life have to become one of those rabid DO supporters in order to not stand out and get through school with the least amount of resistance possible. Believe me, if I were to tell my OMM preceptor on this rotation that I thought cranial was a bunch of bunk, things would not go easy for me.

 

[FutureDoc01]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

It's interesting that so many osteopaths here aren't even planning to use OMM but not surprising. If you guys are the future of osteopathy, the future looks bright or at least honest.

Also don't call us "Osteopaths." This is a dead word...we are osteopathic physicians.

Osteopaths are foreign DO's that are NOT physicians!

Like others have stated....OMM isn't hard. Should be a GPA booster for you. It can be annoying at times and I think many of the techniques are stupid.

I do think it has enhanced my H&P skills!!

 

[Wolverines83]

HAHA!

Brutally honest apparently! I think this thread actually made DO school look more attractive.

Hey bro, I hear your concerns. Some people think OMM will cure cancer. We call those people future psych patients.

It's actually a pretty useful course for the musculoskeletal system. I mean it's basically an entire course devoted to learning what muscles do what and how they interact with the skeletal system. That's good stuff even if you completely eliminate the treatment portion of the course. Some of the other stuff is straight up crap and we all know that and we turn on our "crap filters" when they start talking about it. Plus, we've all become pretty damn good masseuses and can help relieve some MSK pain in our friends and family. Always good to know what to do when someone says "Ah...I got this knot...can you help me out?"

I don't think most of us take it beyond that.

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Also don't call us "Osteopaths." This is a dead word...we are osteopathic physicians.

My bad.

The only times I've used OMT were on residents (when I was still a resident), nurses, some attendings, and a few MD med students. All were for MSK complaints. I don't do OMT on patients. The residents/nurses/attendings/students love the procedures that I do (it gives them immediate relief)

Last time I "studied" or reviewed OMT was for COMLEX Step 3.
The benefits of doing an ACGME residency and now fellowship 😀

I figured that would be on the licensing exam :/. But I'm digging the masseuse thing 😀

Hey bro, I hear your concerns. Some people think OMM will cure cancer.

Well **** man, that's just common sense.

 

[Wolverines83]

My bad.



I figured that would be on the licensing exam :/. But I'm digging the masseuse thing 😀



Well **** man, that's just common sense.

Just some advice if you do decide to pursue the DO route. I understand not being onboard with the omm but I'd tone down the rhetoric a notch. Even though most of us, myself included, have similar feelings, it'll come across douchey if you constantly advertise that rhetoric, at least at first. It'll quickly go from "he doesn't like omm" to "he thinks he's above DO school." Just fair warning!

 

[MoskD]

It is enough to just wait or go caribbean. You're going to go through 500 hours of training + be tested on it multiple times on the boards.

 

[Bacchus]

FWIW, I'm at a FM residency program currently and have to regularly do OMM clinic. You get cushy appointment times (30-45 minutes) and the precepting attending doesn't ask you OMT philosophy or PIMP you on the "intricacies" of OMM. You do what you're comfortable with and that's the treatment for the patient. If you're about to do something contraindicated, the attending will stop you.

So much better than OMM in school.

 

[dntke1518]

The funny thing is that I'm doing my post-bacc now in the hopes I can get my GPA up to about 3.4 (more likely 3.3) but I'm quite comfortablish with my options of being a PA or going into Pharm if I *have* to. But I'm not going to lie, I want the whole enchilada. I'm even willing to brave something I consider ******ed and even at times dangerous pseudoscience to do it... Hello adcoms

Lolz guyz I dont care wut I am PA, Pharm, DO, MD, NP, CRNA, just so I can make tat monnaaayy!

Probably best you stay in Canadia brahhh, sorry, you seem to have too many qualms with OMM for some reason. Plus, the attitude of settling with whatever (even if it is just to be in healthcare) just sets up an option for failure.

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Lolz guyz I dont care wut I am PA, Pharm, DO, MD, NP, CRNA, just so I can make tat monnaaayy!

Probably best you stay in Canadia brahhh, sorry, you seem to have too many qualms with OMM for some reason. Plus, the attitude of settling with whatever (even if it is just to be in healthcare) just sets up an option for failure.

Christ all mighty laddy, if money was my game I wouldn't be bothering wasting oodles of it taking some silly weeder science courses. I love science but not enough to spend money for someone to say 'kongratulashions! haz gold stiker in physiks. :3'

And oh I don't know, maybe I have qualms with OMM because it's stupid and lacking in scientific validity? I have some charm bracelets that can cure gout if you're interested.

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Just some advice if you do decide to pursue the DO route. I understand not being onboard with the omm but I'd tone down the rhetoric a notch. Even though most of us, myself included, have similar feelings, it'll come across douchey if you constantly advertise that rhetoric, at least at first. It'll quickly go from "he doesn't like omm" to "he thinks he's above DO school." Just fair warning!

Noted. I appreciate the feedback. Like I said, I'm not interested to go somewhere just so I can insult the people who belong to that school and say how awful I think it is.

For the record, I don't consider myself above anything and am not trying to sound arrogant, but I know I am.

 

[fiznat]

I'm with Willen. We go to different schools, but our experience has been largely the same (although the professors where I go seem to be a little less draconian in their methods). I would say maybe 5-10% of my class "drinks the kool aid" in regards to OMM. There is a subset of students in the middle who think it is "somewhat useful," but my observation is that an overwhelming majority of students in my class have no plans to use OMM in their practice. Don't worry about being skeptical in regards to OMM at a DO school. You will find plenty of people who feel the same way, and though you will need to choose your words wisely around professors it isn't that difficult to just tread water and get by.

I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with not accepting OMM while attending a DO school. I personally would prefer that we didn't have to take it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to quit school and go somewhere else in protest. I like my school for a lot of other reasons, as well. As far my future in OMM, it is my choice how I will practice once I graduate and I plan to make full use of that liberty.

 

[dntke1518]

And oh I don't know, maybe I have qualms with OMM because it's stupid and lacking in scientific validity? I have some charm bracelets that can cure gout if you're interested.

Put this in your PS!!

In all seriousness man, you seem to know the answer to the question you asked... Don't go DO, you have issues with part of the philosophy and I am pretty sure that will show either through your app or if you get to interview.

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

Put this in your PS!!

In all seriousness man, you seem to know the answer to the question you asked... Don't go DO, you have issues with part of the philosophy and I am pretty sure that will show either through your app or if you get to interview.

lol

I definitely am getting a clearer answer. I have absolutely no scruple with humanistic element in the practice of medicine and evaluating patients as people instead of petri dishes I just disagree with the utility of OMM, that's all.

Treatment using OMM as a pallative? Groovy. Treating using OMM as a placebo and rapport enhancing technique? Rock on. Using OMM to treat rheumatoid arthritis? Er...

 

[SLC]

Treatment using OMM as a pallative? Groovy. Treating using OMM as a placebo and rapport enhancing technique? Rock on. Using OMM to treat rheumatoid arthritis? Er...

You've got a lot to learn. I'm no OMM fanatic, in fact I can't stand the class and have zero plans to ever use it again as soon as it's no longer required of me. But your ignorance on the topic is glaringly obvious.

Nobody uses OMM alone to treat rheumatoid arthritis. If there are DO's out there using OMM on rheumatoid patients, it is through the application of very specific, and safe techniques; and also as an adjunct to a traditional pharmacological and/or surgical approach.

Sorry but your posts seem to indicate that you really believe that people out there think OMM can cure cancer. It's a joke we all pass around about those who are a little overzealous about OMM, but make no mistake; no physician worth his salt would be using OMT to "cure" rheumatoid arthritis, cancer, or any other chronic/terminal disease.

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

You've got a lot to learn. I'm no OMM fanatic, in fact I can't stand the class and have zero plans to ever use it again as soon as it's no longer required of me. But your ignorance on the topic is glaringly obvious.

Nobody uses OMM alone to treat rheumatoid arthritis. If there are DO's out there using OMM on rheumatoid patients, it is through the application of very specific, and safe techniques; and also as an adjunct to a traditional pharmacological and/or surgical approach.

Sorry but your posts seem to indicate that you really believe that people out there think OMM can cure cancer. It's a joke we all pass around about those who are a little overzealous about OMM, but make no mistake; no physician worth his salt would be using OMT to "cure" rheumatoid arthritis, cancer, or any other chronic/terminal disease.

I honestly didn't think so and most of the posts here seem to indicate that your sentiments are shared. Feel free to set me straight.

I was to forward on the assumptions, mea culpe, but I don't understand why the AOA is so adamant about including such things in the curriculum. Is it viewed as a cultural ritual designed to teach people about rapport building and human kinetics or is it legitimate medicine?

 

[Wolverines83]

I honestly didn't think so and most of the posts here seem to indicate that your sentiments are shared. Feel free to set me straight.

I was to forward on the assumptions, mea culpe, but I don't understand why the AOA is so adamant about including such things in the curriculum. Is it viewed as a cultural ritual designed to teach people about rapport building and human kinetics or is it legitimate medicine?

great, now the AOA comes up....

SLC brings up good points. The idea that people are out there treating serious illnesses with strictly omm is inaccurate. OMM is actually a good tool but in addition to sound medical practice. It doesn't replace, it augments...and it certainly has its limits.

I'm starting to think that you're simply ignorant (look up that word before you get offended. I'm using it properly, not in the ghetto fashion) rather than arrogant. You simply have the wrong idea. Maybe your error of perception is thinking that DOs run around twisting and turning everyone's body before they even look at anything from a physician standpoint. If so, it's probably just a result of hearing that information from people who have no knowledge and are just passing along "what their friend heard from this guy who dated her college roommate ten years ago."

Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine are NOT osteopaths...seriously...most of the world uses the word osteopath to equate to a chiro...but we're America and we do stuff our way. DOs are physicians first and foremost who happen to also know how to alleviate some MSK problems with manual techniques...that's all!

And, just to get a dig in...if you don't like using things that have no "scientific proof" you better stop using tylenol since nobody knows how acetaminophen (and a whole lot of other drugs) actually works!

 

[PhiPhenomenon]

And, just to get a dig in...if you don't like using things that have no "scientific proof" you better stop using tylenol since nobody knows how acetaminophen (and a whole lot of other drugs) actually works!

Ironically, I don't but that's not so much the reason why. I never had the perception that "DOs run around twisting and turning everyone's body before they even look at anything from a physician standpoint", you guys are physicians, this is well established and I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm not too worried about myself or a family member going to a DO if I have some terrible disease and following his directives/treatment.

I think your post pretty much sums up what OMM is and how it is used, which in hindsight should have been what I came in asking about in the first place. And honestly, I keep reading about oodles of mixed messages from people on the whole issue, DOs included. Granted I haven't heard any DOs (on teh intentz anyway) use a tone as harsh as I did. Frankly, I don't have much interest in learning that but apples and oranges I guess.

My opinion on the topic has been established and I got feedback on it, so thanks.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

great, now the AOA comes up....

SLC brings up good points. The idea that people are out there treating serious illnesses with strictly omm is inaccurate. OMM is actually a good tool but in addition to sound medical practice. It doesn't replace, it augments...and it certainly has its limits.
There are genuinely a few quacks that are using Cranial for curing autism and developmental disorders. As mentioned in "June Cranial Academy" post on Osteo.
I'm starting to think that you're simply ignorant (look up that word before you get offended. I'm using it properly, not in the ghetto fashion) rather than arrogant. You simply have the wrong idea. Maybe your error of perception is thinking that DOs run around twisting and turning everyone's body before they even look at anything from a physician standpoint. If so, it's probably just a result of hearing that information from people who have no knowledge and are just passing along "what their friend heard from this guy who dated her college roommate ten years ago."

Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine are NOT osteopaths...seriously...most of the world uses the word osteopath to equate to a chiro...but we're America and we do stuff our way. DOs are physicians first and foremost who happen to also know how to alleviate some MSK problems with manual techniques...that's all!

And, just to get a dig in...if you don't like using things that have no "scientific proof" you better stop using tylenol since nobody knows how acetaminophen (and a whole lot of other drugs) actually works!

Yes, but tylenol has been scientifically studied extensively and the produced effect are known. For most OMM the effects are not known exactly, but that being said I don't think many people really mind most OMM, it's the OMM that goes outside of the MSK and into insanity like Cranial.

 

[Wolverines83]

Yes, but tylenol has been scientifically studied extensively and the produced effect are known. For most OMM the effects are not known exactly, but that being said I don't think many people really mind most OMM, it's the OMM that goes outside of the MSK and into insanity like Cranial.

ah, splitting hairs. What I was saying is that we don't know everything about our methods. We use lots of drugs that will eventually have weird side effects...because we can't possibly know everything about a drug. Maybe it's so lawyers have a career? I dunno. Either way, I'd say side effects from stretching a few muscles are certainly nothing to worry about. Now as far as cranial on an infant...well, I bet that could end messy in the long run.

 

[Bacchus]

OMM isn't a science. There are scientific theories of how it works but no one knows for sure. You rely on your experiences with OMM to form an opinion. The 5 patients I treated with OMM today looked better when they left the room. Some had better gaits, others better posture. All left with followup appointments to come back for more pain relief.

This isn't a miracle cure. These patients have had months or years of abuse done to their body, one treatment is not going to cure them. It will augment conventional means or provide another path for those who can't get the level of relief they desire. There is no harm in trying.

 

[costales]

Yeah, the DOs and their OMM!!! Look at this clip from "The Doctors" show today:
http://www.thedoctorstv.com/videolib/init/6415
http://www.thedoctorstv.com/videolib/init/6414
The DO on the show is this guy: http://www.spinaldoc.com/James_W_Simmons_III_DO_PHD.php

Actually, there are OMM techniques that are effective and useful. I've seen people getting immediate relief from pain in our OMM lab and clinic, including a friend who had persistent knee pain. The cranial theory is amusing. As pointed out a million times already, most DOs don't use OMM in practice (a DO once told me "Heck, I don't remember any of that stuff!")

 

[donkeykong1]

Here's a list of conditions from OMM fellow, where OMT treatment could very well indeed come in handy. Depending on the patient, a lot of times narcs and other meds aren't always the be all end all answer to pain management. Just ask any physician (PMR, IM, FM, Sports Med, Neuro, EM, Anes Pain) MD or DO who gets a whole lot of patients in chronic pain:

Back pain
Cervical spine disorders
Chronic pain
Complex regional pain syndrome
Degenerative disc disease
Facet syndrome
Failed back surgery syndrome
Gait disorders
Headache / migraine
Herniated disc / bulging disc
Hip pain
Joint pain
Knee pain
Leg pain
Lower back pain
Lumbar spine disorders
Muscle pain / muscle strain
Cancer pain
Diabetic neuropathy
Discogenic pain
Myofascial pain syndrome
Neuralgia
Post laminectomy syndrome
Post-op & general deconditioning
Postherpetic neuralgia
Myelopathy
Neck pain
Neuropathic pain
Osteoarthritis
Reflex sympathetic dystrophy
Sacroiliac joint dysfunction
Sciatica / radiculopathy
Scoliosis and deformity
Shoulder pain
Spinal stenosis
Spondylolisthesis
Tendonitis
Thoracic spine disorders
Trauma
Upper back pain
Whiplash

Seems to me that those 200+ hours in lab and a rotation in FM/OMM could very well be worth it, even though you might not choose to follow an AOA residency.

 

[somekindof]

I'm a first year at a DO school and we have 2 hours of lecture + 2 hours of clinical OMM lab every week. OMM is certainly not the most difficult class in medical school, but it does take up a good portion of your time when you also factor in studying for clinical competency exams and written exams (and our semesters are 3 weeks longer and summer is shorter). Is it a pain? Yes. Does it have benefits outside of learning techniques? Absolutely. You better believe that spending a few hours a week touching and learning how to palpate the body will give you a deeper understanding of human anatomy and mechanics. We finished anatomy a month ago, but because of OMM we still have to refresh on our anatomy all the time. And even when we were done with the anatomy of something like the leg in the anatomy course, OMM would bring it back up and force us to look at the material again at a later time. I'm willing to bet most MD students won't know how to feel for your AA joint or palpate your ischial tuberosity because it's simply not required of them to learn it at that level.

I went to a DO school because that's the school I matched into in Texas (ya, we have a match system down here). Was it my first choice? No. But I wanted to become a physician and this is the route that I was given. Going to a DO school, because of OMM, will be overall more difficult simply because you are expected to do what everyone else at an MD school does as well as become competent in OMT. We are in class longer and have more material to cover. Overall, though, I am very pleased with my school and where I am. I do NOT think that OMM should be a deterrent for going to a DO school. If you had a choice between MD or DO, I would go with MD simply because there is less stress to deal with, but if DO is your only choice, it is not a bad one at all.

And at my school, OMM stays within the OMM class and it's treated more as a stand-alone topic. It isn't shoved down our throats in the other classes and it rarely pops up in other class lectures.

 

[cliquesh]

And at my school, OMM stays within the OMM class and it's treated more as a stand-alone topic. It isn't shoved down our throats in the other classes and it rarely pops up in other class lectures.

That is how omm is taught at my school, which, in my opinion, is a bad thing. I didn't begin to apperciate OMM until my 3rd year when I saw it being used in conjuncation with typical medicine. OMM is actually pretty cool if you give it chance.

 

[sylvanthus]

You are a premed and offer no sources on research conducted to treat these conditions. Do you think anyone will take anything you have to say seriously?

Here's a list of conditions from OMM fellow, where OMT treatment could very well indeed come in handy. Depending on the patient, a lot of times narcs and other meds aren't always the be all end all answer to pain management. Just ask any physician (PMR, IM, FM, Sports Med, Neuro, EM, Anes Pain) MD or DO who gets a whole lot of patients in chronic pain:

Back pain
Cervical spine disorders
Chronic pain
Complex regional pain syndrome
Degenerative disc disease
Facet syndrome
Failed back surgery syndrome
Gait disorders
Headache / migraine
Herniated disc / bulging disc
Hip pain
Joint pain
Knee pain
Leg pain
Lower back pain
Lumbar spine disorders
Muscle pain / muscle strain
Cancer pain
Diabetic neuropathy
Discogenic pain
Myofascial pain syndrome
Neuralgia
Post laminectomy syndrome
Post-op & general deconditioning
Postherpetic neuralgia
Myelopathy
Neck pain
Neuropathic pain
Osteoarthritis
Reflex sympathetic dystrophy
Sacroiliac joint dysfunction
Sciatica / radiculopathy
Scoliosis and deformity
Shoulder pain
Spinal stenosis
Spondylolisthesis
Tendonitis
Thoracic spine disorders
Trauma
Upper back pain
Whiplash

Seems to me that those 200+ hours in lab and a rotation in FM/OMM could very well be worth it, even though you might not choose to follow an AOA residency.

 

[donkeykong1]

You are a premed and offer no sources on research conducted to treat these conditions. Do you think anyone will take anything you have to say seriously?

I could actually care less what anyone thinks. As was stated before in this thread, it's really hard to conduct OMM research, there's so much bias involved that people often go on first person accounts.