Is general surgery worth it re nonoperation crap?

[Lord Commander]

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So I'm accepted to some fairly decent med schools (37 MCAT, 3.9 science GPA yada yada), but worried about winding up in massive debt and then burning out of medicine. I want to do general surgery of the "So your appendix burst" "So there's a marble lodged in your bowel" and "So your burst appendix is lodged in your bowel" variety. I'm not out to cure cancer or do anything crazy, not planning to specialize, I just want to be a vanilla general practice general surgeon. But I keep hearing (here to a large extent) that GS is a dying field and just not worth it. I'm also not that interested in the touchy feely let's go save some lives part of medicine, to be completely honest, I like the mechanics of surgery, the operation itself but I'm not that social and I don't know that I'd get on that well with patients. I'm not worried about lifestyle (I spent most of college reading textbooks) or money or anything of that nature. So I guess what I was hoping for was some input from practicing surgeons on whether or not a good surgeon who wasn't that great with the nonoperational stuff could still hack it in the field.

 

[Trauma Surgeon]

If I understood your question currently, then the short answer is NO!

I myself was taken by a huge surprise on how much of a surgeons practice is none operative! especially if you want a academic career. I thought, OK the first year(s) is non-operative but it gets better, but as the years went on, it was not like the non-operative crap ended and the operative part took over. No dude, the non-operative part was still there (even to some more extent since you are supposed to do more clinics, follow-ups, multidisciplinary rounds, etc independently), but the operative volume increased.

 

[bubsy84]

If you're not interested in connecting with patients, then you may want to reconsider you decision to go to medical school. Surgery, like everything in life, becomes rote after some time. If you don't derive value from the whole process of connecting with and helping another human being, then you probably won't enjoy surgery (or any other fields of medicine). There are those who get to medical school and discover that they really don't enjoy the "touchy feely" but are too deep in debt to get out... they largely end up in fields like radiology or pathology, which have minimal patient contact

 

[ThoracicGuy]

So I'm accepted to some fairly decent med schools (37 MCAT, 3.9 science GPA yada yada), but worried about winding up in massive debt and then burning out of medicine. I want to do general surgery of the "So your appendix burst" "So there's a marble lodged in your bowel" and "So your burst appendix is lodged in your bowel" variety. I'm not out to cure cancer or do anything crazy, not planning to specialize, I just want to be a vanilla general practice general surgeon. But I keep hearing (here to a large extent) that GS is a dying field and just not worth it. I'm also not that interested in the touchy feely let's go save some lives part of medicine, to be completely honest, I like the mechanics of surgery, the operation itself but I'm not that social and I don't know that I'd get on that well with patients. I'm not worried about lifestyle (I spent most of college reading textbooks) or money or anything of that nature. So I guess what I was hoping for was some input from practicing surgeons on whether or not a good surgeon who wasn't that great with the nonoperational stuff could still hack it in the field.

They don't have anything that is as good as a cholecystectomy at this time. Most of the colectomies done in the US are not done by colorectal surgeons. There is plenty of need for a general surgeon and if you are in private practice, you'll have alot to keep you busy. You'll still have plenty of the paperwork. Everyone gets that and none of it is fun. You'll also get alot of operating. Don't let paperwork keep you down. At least it's probably less than primary care has to do...

 

[Lord Commander]

Alright, I'm assuming if you're in thoracic (wasn't that merged with cards? Unless you're outside the US?) you did a GS residency. I don't mind paperwork I'm just nervous about winding up doing nothing close to an OR but stuck in a crap job to pay MD debt. Any insights appreciated.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Alright, I'm assuming if you're in thoracic (wasn't that merged with cards? Unless you're outside the US?) you did a GS residency. I don't mind paperwork I'm just nervous about winding up doing nothing close to an OR but stuck in a crap job to pay MD debt. Any insights appreciated.

The general surgeons where I work stay busy with surgeries. I'm not sure what work you're meaning that is close to an OR. Surgeons working by RVUs have to do procedures to get their numbers where it should be. Office visits and hospital consults don't pay as much. Sure you'll get consults that are nonoperative like bowel obstructions or pancreatitis. Not every consult is an operative consult. That doesn't mean you won't be in the OR a significant amount of time. Now trauma on the other hand is largely nonoperative. If you do primarily trauma or critical care, you likely won't be in the OR as much.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

Unless you've had some pretty significant experiences outside of the typical stuff, then this all seems very premature. You've got about 3.5 years worth of education and experiences to help decide on these sorts of things. Watching the occasional surgery and shadowing in FP clinic isn't the equivalent of being a doctor in that field. I.e. it's fairly unlikely that you have a great idea of what you want and don't want currently. I'm 3 years into practice and still deciding what I do and don't want from my career. Trust the process and make the decisions when the time comes.

 

[doc05]

well....

the nonoperative part of surgery is significant, in almost all specialties. keep that in mind.
from the sound of your post, I'd be concerned that maybe medicine - in general - isn't a good fit for you. burnout is at all time highs right now, lots of docs are looking to get out. maybe think twice about med school.

 

[Sirach38]

So I'm accepted to some fairly decent med schools (37 MCAT, 3.9 science GPA yada yada), but worried about winding up in massive debt and then burning out of medicine. I want to do general surgery of the "So your appendix burst" "So there's a marble lodged in your bowel" and "So your burst appendix is lodged in your bowel" variety. I'm not out to cure cancer or do anything crazy, not planning to specialize, I just want to be a vanilla general practice general surgeon. But I keep hearing (here to a large extent) that GS is a dying field and just not worth it. I'm also not that interested in the touchy feely let's go save some lives part of medicine, to be completely honest, I like the mechanics of surgery, the operation itself but I'm not that social and I don't know that I'd get on that well with patients. I'm not worried about lifestyle (I spent most of college reading textbooks) or money or anything of that nature. So I guess what I was hoping for was some input from practicing surgeons on whether or not a good surgeon who wasn't that great with the nonoperational stuff could still hack it in the field.

Based on the above, it sounds like medical school and especially general surgery are the wrong choices for you. If you do decide to go to medical school check out fields like interventional radiology and anesthesia. They have much less patient contact and much less paperwork/clinic than GS. Operating is only part of the job of a GS. Clinic, interacting with people, and paperwork are other parts that one has to at least tolerate. IR may be a better fit.

 

[Winged Scapula]

General surgeons are still in great demand. With the high rate of fellowship trained, super specialty surgeons, hospitals and communities are clamouring for a good general surgeon.

Only a small part of being a surgeon is the actual operative work. Your referrals, ability to work well with your colleagues, and patients will depend on you being available and easy to work with. If you don't like patients, you should find another field more to your liking.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you consider your patients "nonoperational crap" outside of the OR, you really shouldn't be a surgeon, general or otherwise.

In regard to general surgery, there's a massive shortage in GS as everyone clambers on the specialty train. Where the hell did you hear it was a dying field lol?

 

[ACSurgeon]

So I'm accepted to some fairly decent med schools (37 MCAT, 3.9 science GPA yada yada), but worried about winding up in massive debt and then burning out of medicine. I want to do general surgery of the "So your appendix burst" "So there's a marble lodged in your bowel" and "So your burst appendix is lodged in your bowel" variety. I'm not out to cure cancer or do anything crazy, not planning to specialize, I just want to be a vanilla general practice general surgeon. But I keep hearing (here to a large extent) that GS is a dying field and just not worth it. I'm also not that interested in the touchy feely let's go save some lives part of medicine, to be completely honest, I like the mechanics of surgery, the operation itself but I'm not that social and I don't know that I'd get on that well with patients. I'm not worried about lifestyle (I spent most of college reading textbooks) or money or anything of that nature. So I guess what I was hoping for was some input from practicing surgeons on whether or not a good surgeon who wasn't that great with the nonoperational stuff could still hack it in the field.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't articulate well what you meant to say.

If you mean you want to operate a lot, and not have to deal with tons of social problems, but are happy to take care of your patients in the peri-op period including preop consultation and post-op care, then general surgery can be very rewarding.

If you're truly wanting to be a technician that does little else otherwise, ortho/GI/IR might be better for you. GI: some doctors get a job where they do little besides scope all day. You'd have to survive a medicine residency first, which doesn't sound like you'd manage.

Agree with above: get through your first couple of years, wait until third year rotations and then make up your mind after seeing what different specialties do on a day to day basis.

 

[Lord Commander]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just didn't articulate well what you meant to say.

If you mean you want to operate a lot, and not have to deal with tons of social problems, but are happy to take care of your patients in the peri-op period including preop consultation and post-op care, then general surgery can be very rewarding.

If you're truly wanting to be a technician that does little else otherwise, ortho/GI/IR might be better for you. GI: some doctors get a job where they do little besides scope all day. You'd have to survive a medicine residency first, which doesn't sound like you'd manage.

Agree with above: get through your first couple of years, wait until third year rotations and then make up your mind after seeing what different specialties do on a day to day basis.

I really didn't express myself very well, I'm not some sociopath who doesn't care if the patient lives or dies, I'm just not great socially (Asperger's) and I don't bond well with people and I'm much more interested in the mechanics of medicine. I'm open to waiting for third year to look around but I'm worried about taking on medical debt but not finding anything in medicine.

IR sounds really interesting but I'm not very familiar with it.

 

[Lord Commander]

I don't think you can underestimate the human and social side of surgery.

As much as other fields like to trash the emotional immaturity of surgeons, it takes something special in my opinion to be able to quickly form a bond with a patient to the extent that they trust you with their life.

The relationship between a surgeon and their patient is actually a very special and intimate one. I think a lot of people don't appreciate that.

I had an adjunct prof who was a retired surgeon (neuro) who was fond of saying that no one gave a rat's ass about his lack of social skills. In hindsight, I should probably not have credited him so much on that.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I had an adjunct prof who was a retired surgeon (neuro) who was fond of saying that no one gave a rat's ass about his lack of social skills. In hindsight, I should probably not have credited him so much on that.

- things are different now than they were thirty years ago

- lack of social skills means different things to different people. This retired may have been rude but this doesn't mean he had no people's skills

- in addition to being able to connect with your parents, you'll have to get along with people you work with, especially early in your career. People will tolerate a rude (or substitute with any personality flaw) chairman much more than they will an intern or any level resident for that matter. This includes your fellow residents, Attendings and nurses. The latter can get you in a lot of trouble if they perceive you as rude/ not responsive/ dry etc.

 

[thyroidectomy]

For what it's worth, people change in medical school, so who knows what you'll actually be interested in when it comes time to apply for residency.

With that said, if you want a truly technical field w/ limited patient interaction, I'd strongly suggest interventional radiology. Within the scope of general surgery, from my experience, vascular surgery seems to have the highest surgical/technical:"non-op management" ratio.

 

[Lord Commander]

For what it's worth, people change in medical school, so who knows what you'll actually be interested in when it comes time to apply for residency.

With that said, if you want a truly technical field w/ limited patient interaction, I'd strongly suggest interventional radiology. Within the scope of general surgery, from my experience, vascular surgery seems to have the highest surgical/technical:"non-op management" ratio.

I'll look in to that-I suppose it doesn't matter that much what I think now but I'm
fairly terrified of dropping $150K and not liking anything in medicine. Vascular surgery does seem interesting. Thank you for the response.

I suppose if nothing else, there's always the Presidency...

 

[MDDoubleD]

So I'm accepted to some fairly decent med schools (37 MCAT, 3.9 science GPA yada yada), but worried about winding up in massive debt and then burning out of medicine. I want to do general surgery of the "So your appendix burst" "So there's a marble lodged in your bowel" and "So your burst appendix is lodged in your bowel" variety. I'm not out to cure cancer or do anything crazy, not planning to specialize, I just want to be a vanilla general practice general surgeon. But I keep hearing (here to a large extent) that GS is a dying field and just not worth it. I'm also not that interested in the touchy feely let's go save some lives part of medicine, to be completely honest, I like the mechanics of surgery, the operation itself but I'm not that social and I don't know that I'd get on that well with patients. I'm not worried about lifestyle (I spent most of college reading textbooks) or money or anything of that nature. So I guess what I was hoping for was some input from practicing surgeons on whether or not a good surgeon who wasn't that great with the nonoperational stuff could still hack it in the field.

37 on the MCAT, 3.9 science GPA, doesn't care about money, reads textbooks for fun, doesn't care about lifestyle; the fact that you are all these things but aren't really interested in medicine is indicative of a cruel god playing games with the universe. I don't know what you mean by "don't want to cure cancer" but you're brilliant yet antisocial and more interested in form and function than making a tangible interest in somebody's life, I really think you need to consider research science. It caters to your personality, I imagine you could get a funded PhD package (takes care of that debt) and it's something most physicians would love to do but don't because it means a pay cut-again something you don't care about.

 

[MDDoubleD]

Failing that, OP should take up the suggestion of IR or try for DR or Path, he would of course, not get to cut. I'd suggest Forensic Path as the "you get to cut and the 'patient' doesn't care" field but I'm trying to picture this guy in court/counseling the bereaved and it's not a pretty picture. Not GI, he'd be broken by an IM residency and not ortho, it may be less interaction than general but those patients are largely athletes or pediatric and well, I think we've seen how that would go.

 

[atomi]

OP, you have stated repeatedly that you are not interested in working with patients and more interested in hands-on mechanic type of work with little interpersonal involvement. This leads me wonder what drew you to medicine in the first place. Usually it's the globally high compensation levels, but you've stated you're not interested in this. I would suggest becoming some sort of clock-in, clock-out mechanic, but you're clearly capable of more and interested in doing more than adjusting W valve to X spec and inserting Y fitting and securing with Z clamp. It sounds like a PhD in something like mechanical engineering, materials engineering, physical chemistry, or physics and an academic career would be right up your alley. Have your own lab. Do research that interests you that is unrelated to the biomedical sciences. Interact minimally with others. Your education would be funded and you wouldn't have the fear of debt.

You described yourself as Asperger's. Many of my classmates and professors in engineering school fit this mold. They were brillant but had a very hard time interacting with people and thus landed in academics or non-management track technical jobs in private industry. I knew essentially no one in medical school or in my medical training so far whom I would identify as Asperger's. Most are very sociable, and even if they are not, they have the ability to turn it on when working with patients. This is just a suggestion, but it sounds like you might find a more comfortable home in this kind of world.