Is getting Bs really bad?

[sleepy12]

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In most of my undergrad science classes I got Bs, occasional As. Unfortunately B = 3.0 . Now what is a person to do if they fail to get into med school because of a science gpa that is in the low 3.0s? I never felt a B showed that you weren't strong in science, especially if you went to a difficult undergrad school. Obviously the thing to do is raise it, but what if you already graduated? Is one supposed to retake classes that they got a B or B+ in? That just doesn't seem to make any sense.

 

[Excelsius]

In most of my undergrad science classes I got Bs, occasional As. Unfortunately B = 3.0 . Now what is a person to do if they fail to get into med school because of a science gpa that is in the low 3.0s? I never felt a B showed that you weren't strong in science, especially if you went to a difficult undergrad school. Obviously the thing to do is raise it, but what if you already graduated? Is one supposed to retake classes that they got a B or B+ in? That just doesn't seem to make any sense.

Do not retake classes where you received a B. Adcoms will likely find that to be a sign of immaturity. Instead, take more BCPM courses and do well in them. Your goal is to have a high BCPM GPA. A "B" is not a bad grade, but a 3.0 BCPM GPA is. If you receive A's at least in half of your science classes, your BCPM will be 3.5 or above. Courses like Biology, genetics, etc, are also considered to be science courses. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get A's in these classes even if you are not able to do well in advanced math or physics courses. Biology, even chemistry, is much easier. You can also take courses like geography, which is also science, to boost your BCPM. The bottom line is that you have a lot of options. Don't say that you're not good at sciences because that's a very broad subject. Choose the classes that interest you most and you should do well. If you don't like physics and math, then don't take that path.

 

[2Fic]

especially if you went to a difficult undergrad school.

chemistry is chemistry is chemistry...no matter where you choose to study it

 

[side effect]

In most of my undergrad science classes I got Bs, occasional As. Unfortunately B = 3.0 . Now what is a person to do if they fail to get into med school because of a science gpa that is in the low 3.0s? I never felt a B showed that you weren't strong in science, especially if you went to a difficult undergrad school. Obviously the thing to do is raise it, but what if you already graduated? Is one supposed to retake classes that they got a B or B+ in? That just doesn't seem to make any sense.

Haha...man...welcome to SDN, where B stands for Bad and neurotic pre meds are born.

To answer your question: yes. Many MD schools are changing their policies this year. They now have a 4.00 GPA cutoff. (Any lower = rejected. Any higher = you're lying, academic dishonesty, rejected.)

 

[dienekes88]

OP, that stuff is in the past. Don't worry about it. Focus on what you can do now.

You could do a post-bac or SMP.

I had a bunch of B-'s, B's, and B+'s. In fact, I had 11 B's and a "credit" (I took the class Credit/D/Fail). I got into medical school.

chemistry is chemistry is chemistry...no matter where you choose to study it

That's repeated ad nauseam on SDN, and it's just not true. AdComs have a feeling for bigger schools, i.e. know what's considered good for that specific school.

School A's Orgo Exam
20 multiple choice questions
vs.
School B's Orgo Exam
5 multiple choice + a few one-step/two-step mechanisms
vs.
School C's Orgo Exam
1 multiple choice + a few two-step mechanisms + 2 ten-step synthesis problems

It's all the same chemistry, but it's tested in different ways.

 

[Haemulon]

chemistry is chemistry is chemistry...no matter where you choose to study it

I get your point, the subject is what the subject is. However, the huge variety of teaching methods, course structures, methods of evaluation, and grading policies all contribute to different levels of difficulty in obtaining a specific grade value among colleges. Heck, even between different instructors at the same college. You will notice that this applies to med school courses as well, which is why the USMLE is so important.

 

[MilkmanAl]

That's repeated ad nauseam on SDN, and it's just not true. AdComs have a feeling for bigger schools, i.e. know what's considered good for that specific school.

School A's Orgo Exam
20 multiple choice questions
vs.
School B's Orgo Exam
5 multiple choice + a few one-step/two-step mechanisms
vs.
School C's Orgo Exam
1 multiple choice + a few two-step mechanisms + 2 ten-step synthesis problems

It's all the same chemistry, but it's tested in different ways.

I'll second this. I saw a couple of my friends' organic and biochem tests, and they were nowhere near as difficult as mine. I'd consider the hardest problem on them probably above-average in difficulty on my tests. There really is a huge difference between schools.

 

[gopher22]

I never felt a B showed that you weren't strong in science

Don't retake, but start getting As. Even though you feel Bs show understanding, there are enough applicants getting As for them to be picky.

 

[FSAP]

10 step synthesis mechanisms are useless. They are not harder, but just take longer. If you can do a shorter one, you can probably do a 10 step. We had mostly mechanism exams that had like 1 multiple choice question and a bunch of like 5 step mechanisms. I think the longest we had was an 8 step, but even than I would say half of the steps were straight forward. Seriously, the way people overrate organic chemistry is ridiculous.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I think every one of my organic tests had at least 1 problem (usually 2) that went something along the lines of "Here's your molecule, and here's your product. Here's a list of reagents. Use any of them you like and draw mechanisms of each reaction undergone." I remember missing points on one of those for not drawing possible side products. That was not fun.

 

[amakhosidlo]

You can also take courses like geography, which is also science, to boost your BCPM.

No. Just......no.

Also, chemistry is not chemistry is not chemistry.
Some of the stupidest people I know 4.0'd their chem's at CC because the curve was so horribly skewed to the left. Will med schools care where they took their pre-reqs? No, because they'll wind up with a great GPA from a 4-year school.

As for O-chem: The O-chem's at the small state schools in Wa/Ca/Or (don't know about anywhere else) NEVER go beyond "A+B=?". Compare that to any legitimate O-chem: "Starting at point A, get to point, oh...how about W? Here's a blank piece of paper. Hope you memorized your reagents!"

How about missing points for forgetting to dot in an electron that's present in every other step?

<-- Kicks self for being an ambitious highschool pre-med.

Oh, and A's start at 3.6, so "more than half A's" doesn't guarantee you >3.5. It guarantees you between a 3.0 and a 3.5 unless you beat your remaining classes over the head with a stick.

 

[EpiPEN]

Hm.... who was it that said, "B is the new C"

 

[FSAP]

How about missing points for forgetting to dot in an electron that's present in every other step?

I remember on the first orgo exam I lost like 5 points for forgetting electron pairs. I never drew them in general chem. Pissed me off.

"Starting at point A, get to point, oh...how about W? Here's a blank piece of paper. Hope you memorized your reagents!"

Not all orgo exams are like that?

 

[kedrin]

in Orgo I we had full multiple choice tests and they were just as hard as the completely non multiple choice tests i had in Orgo II.

 

[gwill024]

gosh...wouldn't it be great if there were some sort of standardized test that actually tests what knowledge you gained from the classes you took in college? Then you could actually prove to adcoms that the "B" you got in your class (which is actually an obvious "A" at all other lesser colleges...) really means you have mastered the subject just as much as the people who received an "A" in that course at your specific college. I imagine it would be called something like medical college admissions test and maybe if you did really well on it and killed it you could show just how much better your school is from everyone else!!!!!!!!

This subject comes up all the time, and people always argue that one class is better than another at their university. Well fine, show it on the MCAT. Go out and prove the "B" is an really an "A" and score that 15 on the biological science portion of the MCAT.

 

[Nanon]

My last O'chem final, last question:

You are shipwrecked on a deserted island with a friend who broke his leg escaping from the sinking ship. You have a bottle of vodka, a chemistry set and a lighter. You want to make the following pain killer (can't remember what it was, but at least she gave the structure).

It was a 12 step process, 30/100 point question. I lost 4 points for stupid stuff, gained 2 points for writing at the end:

"This takes too long to make. In reality, I would have just shared the bottle of vodka with my friend."



All chemistry courses are NOT created equally. And btw, I took my chem classes at a cc.

S.

 

[MilkmanAl]

gosh...wouldn't it be great if there were some sort of standardized test that actually tests what knowledge you gained from the classes you took in college? Then you could actually prove to adcoms that the "B" you got in your class (which is actually an obvious "A" at all other lesser colleges...) really means you have mastered the subject just as much as the people who received an "A" in that course at your specific college. I imagine it would be called something like medical college admissions test and maybe if you did really well on it and killed it you could show just how much better your school is from everyone else!!!!!!!!

This subject comes up all the time, and people always argue that one class is better than another at their university. Well fine, show it on the MCAT. Go out and prove the "B" is an really an "A" and score that 15 on the biological science portion of the MCAT.

Well, I did just that. Thank you, MCAT!

 

[sleepy12]

gosh...wouldn't it be great if there were some sort of standardized test that actually tests what knowledge you gained from the classes you took in college? Then you could actually prove to adcoms that the "B" you got in your class (which is actually an obvious "A" at all other lesser colleges...) really means you have mastered the subject just as much as the people who received an "A" in that course at your specific college. I imagine it would be called something like medical college admissions test and maybe if you did really well on it and killed it you could show just how much better your school is from everyone else!!!!!!!!

This subject comes up all the time, and people always argue that one class is better than another at their university. Well fine, show it on the MCAT. Go out and prove the "B" is an really an "A" and score that 15 on the biological science portion of the MCAT.

Well I hope a 12 shows I'm competent since its still a really high percentile (somewhere in mid90s I believe). It just seems like these days you have to have BOTH grades and mcat and that one doesn't make up for other. Or at the very least it seems the trend is that a high gpa can make up for a not so great mcat...but I rarely see it the other way around. 🙁

 

[RySerr21]

gosh...wouldn't it be great if there were some sort of standardized test that actually tests what knowledge you gained from the classes you took in college? Then you could actually prove to adcoms that the "B" you got in your class (which is actually an obvious "A" at all other lesser colleges...) really means you have mastered the subject just as much as the people who received an "A" in that course at your specific college. I imagine it would be called something like medical college admissions test and maybe if you did really well on it and killed it you could show just how much better your school is from everyone else!!!!!!!!

This subject comes up all the time, and people always argue that one class is better than another at their university. Well fine, show it on the MCAT. Go out and prove the "B" is an really an "A" and score that 15 on the biological science portion of the MCAT.

um...the mcat doesnt test you on the knowledge you learned from the pre req courses. Yes, the content is the same. But it has been said over and over and over again that the MCAT is not a knowledge based test.

earning a 12 on PS does not necessarily mean you have mastered physics and general chemistry.......NOT AT ALL. Hell, I earned a 9 for PS on a test that was mostly physics and ill be the first to tell you i dont know **** about physics, nor do i care. The only reason i got a 9 is b/c i was able to analyze the passages and use reasoning skills to pick the right answer.

It just seems like these days you have to have BOTH grades and mcat and that one doesn't make up for other

yup, that is the unfortuante truth.

 

[^=^]

Just kick ass on the mcat and that'll make up for your gpa.

 

[gwill024]

um...the mcat doesnt test you on the knowledge you learned from the pre req courses. Yes, the content is the same. But it has been said over and over and over again that the MCAT is not a knowledge based test.

earning a 12 on PS does not necessarily mean you have mastered physics and general chemistry.......NOT AT ALL. Hell, I earned a 9 for PS on a test that was mostly physics and ill be the first to tell you i dont know **** about physics, nor do i care. The only reason i got a 9 is b/c i was able to analyze the passages and use reasoning skills to pick the right answer.



yup, that is the unfortuante truth.

well scoring a 9 on the physics portion of the test puts you at the 55 - 67th percentile according the the 2007 statistics. It seems like you should reasonably be able to make that score with reasoning skills and a passing knowledge of the subject (like you mentioned). Now what I'm really talking about is mastering the subject allowing you to score that 15...not a 9.

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/combined07.pdf

To say that the MCAT is not a knowledge test is a bit disingenuous. Is it a purely knowledge based test? No, it involves reasoning as well. Can you do reasonably well on the MCAT with excellent reasoning skills? Yes. Will you be able to score a 15 on the MCAT with only reasoning skills and no knowledge. Absolutely not. You can't say the MCAT does not test knowledge, however you can probably say that it doesn't ONLY test knowledge. Your purported truth is getting a bit hazy.

I'm not here to get in a e-peen size contest though. The point is, the MCAT is designed to account for the different standards in the thousands of universities throughout the US, Canada, etc. Doing well (90th percentile or higher) on it takes many skills, including the knowledge you should have obtained while getting that "B" in Bio 1.

 

[redlight]

Just kick ass on the mcat and that'll make up for your gpa.

nah, even if the schools don't screen, you'd still be at a disadvantage because your transcript is generally more important to adcom than a test score

however, i think a high mcat and a sharp upward trend (take upper levels and get As) could do the trick

 

[RySerr21]

well scoring a 9 on the physics portion of the test puts you at the 55 - 67th percentile according the the 2007 statistics. It seems like you should reasonably be able to make that score with reasoning skills and a passing knowledge of the subject (like you mentioned). Now what I'm really talking about is mastering the subject allowing you to score that 15...not a 9.

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/combined07.pdf

To say that the MCAT is not a knowledge test is a bit disingenuous. Is it a purely knowledge based test? No, it involves reasoning as well. Can you do reasonably well on the MCAT with excellent reasoning skills? Yes. Will you be able to score a 15 on the MCAT with only reasoning skills and no knowledge. Absolutely not. You can't say the MCAT does not test knowledge, however you can probably say that it doesn't ONLY test knowledge. Your purported truth is getting a bit hazy.

I'm not here to get in a e-peen size contest though. The point is, the MCAT is designed to account for the different standards in the thousands of universities throughout the US, Canada, etc. Doing well (90th percentile or higher) on it takes many skills, including the knowledge you should have obtained while getting that "B" in Bio 1.

does the mcat require knowledge to do well? of course. is the main point of the test to examine the extent of your knowledge on the chosen subjects? I think not. Thats the point of taking those respective college courses.

I didn't mean to make it sound ike ZERO knowledge was necessary to do well on the MCAT. That is absurd. But your original comment sounded like you thought the main purpose of the MCAT was to test for knowledge/content...which i disagree with.

 

[coldweatherblue]

I don't think most people would say that a B is a "really bad" grade. Technically a B is above average.

The problem is that ultimately you want to show admissions committees that you are a good applicant. So you want to get a GPA that is at or above the average for matriculants. That average is around 3.65 or so, which is mostly A's with a few B's here and there. If you get mostly B's with a few A's, you are not going to look as good to adcoms as most of the people they accept.

The good news is that if your science GPA is around 3.3-3.4, and your cumulative GPA is around 3.6-3.7, a stellar MCAT can make up for lost ground in the science GPA. If your science GPA is right at 3.0, it would be more difficult. An upward trend helps too... the alternative is to take post-grad science classes and raise your GPA. Cheers.

 

[calnation]

In my opinion B's are good grades but they don't cut it. Unfortunately med school is extremely competitive (with every other person, and their moms wanting to be a doctor). You should definitely be flawless here on out. Good Mcat and some sweet A's in hard science classes will do wonders.

 

[sleepy12]

In my opinion B's are good grades but they don't cut it. Unfortunately med school is extremely competitive (with every other person, and their moms wanting to be a doctor). You should definitely be flawless here on out. Good Mcat and some sweet A's in hard science classes will do wonders.

I hope so! I am in a masters program right now, but its not science. I would be able to fit 1 graduate science class in each semester (1 this summer, 1 fall, 1 spring). If I got all A's in them, do you think that would be significant enough or are 3 classes not enough to show you know ur stuff? Unfortunately this might not be in enough time for this year....

 

[calnation]

I hope so! I am in a masters program right now, but its not science. I would be able to fit 1 graduate science class in each semester (1 this summer, 1 fall, 1 spring). If I got all A's in them, do you think that would be significant enough or are 3 classes not enough to show you know ur stuff? Unfortunately this might not be in enough time for this year....

Oh I must've overlooked that you're in grad school. Unfortunately med schools don't factor in your graduate grades into the GPA calculation. They only look into your undergraduate. I would suggest trying a post-bacc though I don't know much about those. That and a high mcat always helps.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I hate threads like this.

So, does everyone assume that the same person teaches the same classes every semester, every year? At many big state schools, two or three lectures of the prereqs will run concurrently.

I know for first two Ochems ad Biochem there is often one professor who is notoriously harder than the other person. So, how are you comparing an institutions ochem to anothers when the professor who teaches it is such a big variable?!

Take home idea: if ANYONE got an A in a class then you most likely could have too.

 

[sleepy12]

Oh I must've overlooked that you're in grad school. Unfortunately med schools don't factor in your graduate grades into the GPA calculation. They only look into your undergraduate. I would suggest trying a post-bacc though I don't know much about those. That and a high mcat always helps.

Yeah I was thinking a post bacc might be exactly what I need, but then that is what got me wondering whether or not its worth it to take a class you got a B in again. I thought in post-bacc programs you basically take your pre med requirements again, which would be like retaking a class I got a B in and already feel very confident in the material...doesn't sound right to me for some reason. Then I thought of taking science classes I haven't taken before like upper level ones but you see I've already graduated. Do you know if med schools may look at your graduate science gpa at all?

 

[Excelsius]

I think every one of my organic tests had at least 1 problem (usually 2) that went something along the lines of "Here's your molecule, and here's your product. Here's a list of reagents. Use any of them you like and draw mechanisms of each reaction undergone." I remember missing points on one of those for not drawing possible side products. That was not fun.

This is interesting to see. My Orgo was the same way, except that besides the 10 step mechanism to be written from scratch at the end of the test, our instructor also included several mechanisms in the middle of the test where you had to write the reagent, one of the products, etc. The last mechanism almost always consisted of words. He would tell you the name of the complex molecule and ask to derive it. Wouldn't even say what reagents to use. Two problems here: 1.if you make the smallest mistake in drawing the correct structure from the name of the molecule, your entire mechanism will be wrong. 2. if your mechanism went over 10 steps, he would deduct points because the solution wasn't elegant enough and your yield would be too small and impure. In the whole year, we never had a single multiple choice question, not even on the weekly pop quizzes.

Furthermore, we had to learn the entire NMR spikes and he would often give us a graph on the test from which we had to draw the precise molecule that it depicts (with a few hints sometimes). We also had to remember all the sugars and how to draw them...

The remarkable thing abut this is that I took this class at a community college. I am even more confident now that most of the CA CCs, especially mine, are indeed just as difficult as the regular universities, if not more. Our college had an agreement with UCLA, USC, and a bunch of other UCs and we had a delegation that had gone to these UCs to make sure that we learn the exact same material or more. Med schools need a wake up call.

 

[cystapharm]

). The remarkable thing abut this is that I took this class at a community college. I am even more confident now that most of the CA CCs, especially mine, are indeed just as difficult as the regular universities, if not more. Our college had an agreement with UCLA, USC, and a bunch of other UCs and we had a delegation that had gone to these UCs to make sure that we learn the exact same material or more. Med schools need a wake up call.

thats so true! I got lots of B's at my community college in undergrad science and math but get A's in upper division biology courses at a UC. I felt it was somewhat tougher at the community college level.

 

[Nanon]

The remarkable thing abut this is that I took this class at a community college. I am even more confident now that most of the CA CCs, especially mine, are indeed just as difficult as the regular universities, if not more. Our college had an agreement with UCLA, USC, and a bunch of other UCs and we had a delegation that had gone to these UCs to make sure that we learn the exact same material or more. Med schools need a wake up call.

San Francisco, by any chance? Dr. Hermann? Because ya, that was my experience, too, but I had Dr. Dang. In our 1st semester gen chem class, we started w/ 150... which pared down to about 40 in 2nd semester gen chem, which became 20 in 1st semester o'chem, and we ended with 13 (!!!) people TOTAL in 2nd semester o'chem, and of those 13, 10 passed.

However, 10 years have passed since then, and I still remember everything. I know, because I just took the MCAT.

 

[Slack3r]

My orgo class was like that, and I go to a state school! 😱

 

[foster033]

Yeah I was thinking a post bacc might be exactly what I need, but then that is what got me wondering whether or not its worth it to take a class you got a B in again. I thought in post-bacc programs you basically take your pre med requirements again, which would be like retaking a class I got a B in and already feel very confident in the material...doesn't sound right to me for some reason. Then I thought of taking science classes I haven't taken before like upper level ones but you see I've already graduated. Do you know if med schools may look at your graduate science gpa at all?

You can still take undergrad classes even after you graduate....
enroll at the institution as either a non-matriculated student or a student seeking a 2nd degree(you don't actually have to get the degree but sometimes this gives you priority in selecting classes)...also grad school and grad classes are usually seen as an EC and a high GPA there doesn't make up for an undergrad GPA...which is why the best thing to do is take more UG classes

 

[radi0headfan]

i think you'll be ok with a science GPA in the low 3s, as long as your overall GPA is fine (3.5 or above would be good).. thats not to say someone not meeting those GPA cutoffs would be a bad candidate for med school.. just addressing what it probably would take to be somewhat competitive ..if you've been out of college for a while and feel like your science/undergrad GPA is not representative of your capabilities, rather than retaking classes, it might be better to go for a masters program to show that you can make the grades.. gluck

 

[radi0headfan]

You can still take undergrad classes even after you graduate....
enroll at the institution as either a non-matriculated student or a student seeking a 2nd degree(you don't actually have to get the degree but sometimes this gives you priority in selecting classes)...also grad school and grad classes are usually seen as an EC and a high GPA there doesn't make up for an undergrad GPA...which is why the best thing to do is take more UG classes

ahh ic, wasn't sure how grad GPA played into the final calculated GPA.. in that case, maybe it is better to retake the classes instead of do a masters program?

 

[copingmethods]

School A's Orgo Exam
20 multiple choice questions
vs.
School B's Orgo Exam
5 multiple choice + a few one-step/two-step mechanisms
vs.
School C's Orgo Exam
1 multiple choice + a few two-step mechanisms + 2 ten-step synthesis problems

It's all the same chemistry, but it's tested in different ways.

You could get any of those scenarios at my school just depending on which professor/lecturer is teaching.

 

[foster033]

ahh ic, wasn't sure how grad GPA played into the final calculated GPA.. in that case, maybe it is better to retake the classes instead of do a masters program?

A masters program won't help with your GPA but if it's something you're truly interested in and will use if you do not get into medical school then it's not necessarily bad.
However, if you're worried you gpa may keep you out the only thing to do is try to improve it with more undergrad classes.

 

[Excelsius]

thats so true! I got lots of B's at my community college in undergrad science and math but get A's in upper division biology courses at a UC. I felt it was somewhat tougher at the community college level.

We had transfer students come from UCLA and USC and say how the classes there are easier. One of the difficult things at the CC is that there is no curve (in our CC at least). All those people saying that just because you're at CC your grades are inflated because the competition is pretty mediocre should realize that no curve means that you are NOT competing with these "mediocre" students. It is worse, in many of the science classes you are competing with the teacher. If everyone fails, then they will fail. There is no curve to help you. I know several university students who completely skipped the NMR and IR graphs. Those who covered it, had a cursory review. Our teacher made us buy a separate book just on NMR and IR that had about 40 exercises. He was in direct contact with the author of the book and had made several suggestions.

Another thing: I once asked my professor why in the world would he be teaching at a community college with his credentials. He said that the amount of freedom that he has at a community college he can't get anywhere else. He was a UCLA graduate and had taught in Irvine for several years before coming to our CC.

Since I am not alone in my experience, we probably should make a new CC thread that explains the situation. Some adcoms are lurking around this forum. It would help if they knew CC-specific information. I find it silly that some medical schools (I think Case is one of them) do not accept pre-reqs from a CC. Very ignorant of them.

 

[T12]

School A's Orgo Exam
20 multiple choice questions
vs.
School B's Orgo Exam
5 multiple choice + a few one-step/two-step mechanisms
vs.
School C's Orgo Exam
1 multiple choice + a few two-step mechanisms + 2 ten-step synthesis problems

It's all the same chemistry, but it's tested in different ways.

Uhh, how about 30 multiple choice, 10 mechanisms, and 5 syntheses?

Which schools are these offering 12 minute exams described above? I wish I would've went to a "very difficult undergrad".

 

[dienekes88]

Uhh, how about 30 multiple choice, 10 mechanisms, and 5 syntheses?

Which schools are these offering 12 minute exams described above? I wish I would've went to a "very difficult undergrad".

Hahaha. These are all 50 minute exams, and hard enough that not everyone was able to finish every problem in each exam. Given that a synthesis problem should take on average 10 minutes, I'm not exactly sure how you could have that many problems... unless it was the final.

Obviously your undergrad is the hardest, and you have the smartest classmates. I can't compete with you there. You'll probably wreck the MCAT, and if you only get a B, then AdComs will know that it's alright, because your exams are ridic. 👍 I also never said my undergrad was "very difficult." I just said that there are varying levels of difficulty.

1) moderate-sized state university
2) large state university with a very good reputation
3) ivy league university

Edit: Alright, I checked an old exam... and you're right. The exams are a little longer:
5 mechanisms/reactions
5 multiple choice/reactions
1 reaction tree A-F type problem
1 major multi-step synthesis

 

[dienekes88]

10 step synthesis mechanisms are useless. They are not harder, but just take longer. If you can do a shorter one, you can probably do a 10 step. We had mostly mechanism exams that had like 1 multiple choice question and a bunch of like 5 step mechanisms. I think the longest we had was an 8 step, but even than I would say half of the steps were straight forward. Seriously, the way people overrate organic chemistry is ridiculous.

If you can see the mechanisms from the very beginning, then it's simple. Some people just can't see it. If you can do them, then you have a natural talent for orgo. Some people are just bad at orgo.

Also, not every 10-step synthesis is created equal...

It's kinda like saying I can't imagine how anyone might be incapable of becoming a national caliber athlete. It's not that hard. You just have to train 15-25 hours per week, be on a strict diet 50 weeks of the year, and be in bed by 11 every night. Making such a statement would be ridiculous.

 

[T12]

Well, I'd have to disagree with your classification of your school type #1 then, as mine would best fit that mold, and every test I took in O-chem had about the level of content I described. Given, those multiple choice questions were usually designed to be fairly rapid-fire and usually made up about 30% of the score. Mechanisms (ranging short to long) and Syntheses (generally no more than 4, MAYBE 5 steps) made up the other 60-70%. Oftentimes, 10% would be an open-ended problem prompting you to describe/illustrate something you studied that was not tested on the exam. This would be graded on correctness and involvement. Simply listing reactants and their products would earn you around 5 points, with further syntheses and extensive mechanisms garnering higher scores.

This is not to say that my small state school is "very difficult" either, I think it's about on par with every other state school in the country. Maybe Ivy schools are harder, but its definitely unrepresentative to say small state schools give easier exams. Completely false to say they only give multiple choice. I had only one test in that format, the professor designed it to be graded the same day because the drop date was the day after the test.

And the class average on the ACS Final was in the 80th percentile nationwide, with several scoring as high as 98th percentile.

Once again, my school is no more difficult than other schools, and I don't mean to suggest that either, only that characterizing schools so generally doesn't paint an accurate picture.

 

[dienekes88]

Well, I'd have to disagree with your classification of your school type #1 then, as mine would best fit that mold, and every test I took in O-chem had about the level of content I described. Given, those multiple choice questions were usually designed to be fairly rapid-fire and usually made up about 30% of the score. Mechanisms (ranging short to long) and Syntheses (generally no more than 4, MAYBE 5 steps) made up the other 60-70%. Oftentimes, 10% would be an open-ended problem prompting you to describe/illustrate something you studied that was not tested on the exam. This would be graded on correctness and involvement. Simply listing reactants and their products would earn you around 5 points, with further syntheses and extensive mechanisms garnering higher scores.

This is not to say that my small state school is "very difficult" either, I think it's about on par with every other state school in the country. Maybe Ivy schools are harder, but its definitely unrepresentative to say small state schools give easier exams. Completely false to say they only give multiple choice. I had only one test in that format, the professor designed it to be graded the same day because the drop date was the day after the test.

And the class average on the ACS Final was in the 80th percentile nationwide, with several scoring as high as 98th percentile.

Once again, my school is no more difficult than other schools, and I don't mean to suggest that either, only that characterizing schools so generally doesn't paint an accurate picture.

Sorry, dude. I think I was a little confusing in my wording. I was in fact referencing specific schools in each case. I don't want to publish names, because I want to protect the innocent.

I hear you. Any school can be extremely tough. I would never write someone off based on his pedigree. I arrived at this way of looking at things, because I'm an idiot... and I have a pretty impressive pedigree.

 

[T12]

After reading that those exams described were given in 50 minute formats, I suppose I should clarify that my Organic class was offered T/R, and our exams lasted about an hour and a half, so we weren't stretched for time or anything.

 

[dienekes88]

After reading that those exams described were given in 50 minute formats, I suppose I should clarify that my Organic class was offered T/R, and our exams lasted about an hour and a half.

I also may have remembered some things incorrectly. I definitely forgot what my own orgo exams looked like, and I posted a correction.

I just remember looking through a few orgo exams from a large state university with a good rep and thinking, "where are the synthesis problems? It's all one-step/two-step mechanisms."

 

[foster033]

Our organic exams were always much much longer than anything you guys are describing... given at night outside of class, 3 hour time limit and many people still didn't finish...

but liberal arts schools are easy 😀

 

[dienekes88]

Our organic exams were always much much longer than anything you guys are describing... given at night outside of class, 3 hour time limit and many people still didn't finish...

but liberal arts schools are easy 😀

Hahaha. 👍

So are ivy league schools. 😀
"ZOMG EVERYONE GETS A'S!" 🙄

 

[T12]

Our organic exams were always much much longer than anything you guys are describing... given at night outside of class, 3 hour time limit and many people still didn't finish...

but liberal arts schools are easy 😀

Day-um, you sure you didn't accidentally enroll in P-Chem?

 

[^=^]

Getting Bs is veryyy bad, like the DEvil Sheep!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMShvQa4SI0