Is GMO mandatory?

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Atlas Shrugged

Family Medicine
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I'm interested in HPSP or USUHS and joining the Navy to serve my country and patch some soldiers up. I have searched around but haven't found any current (closest I found was this thread started 6 years ago: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=112867) information regarding if GMO tours were still standard practice.

Spending a few years as a GMO and delaying residency does not sound terribly exciting to me.

I recently spoke to a Navy Doc that specialized in tropical infections and she had said that it was unlikely to have to serve a GMO tour. Does anyone know anything contrary to this?

Thanks in advance.
 
I recently spoke to a Navy Doc that specialized in tropical infections and she had said that it was unlikely to have to serve a GMO tour. Does anyone know anything contrary to this?

I'm not Navy, but this physician is, at best, horribly misinformed. GMO tours remain quite common for many specialties in both the Navy and Air Force. You're less likely to have to do one in the Army, but it's not like GMOs are uncommon in the Army either. If uninterrupted training is a high priority for you, then joining the Navy in particular and military medicine more generally is not a good option.
 
I'm interested in HPSP or USUHS and joining the Navy to serve my country and patch some soldiers up. I have searched around but haven't found any current (closest I found was this thread started 6 years ago: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=112867) information regarding if GMO tours were still standard practice.

Spending a few years as a GMO and delaying residency does not sound terribly exciting to me.

I recently spoke to a Navy Doc that specialized in tropical infections and she had said that it was unlikely to have to serve a GMO tour. Does anyone know anything contrary to this?

Thanks in advance.
She is incorrect. You are likely to have to complete a GMO tour in the Navy, unless you're looking at primary care. Any specialty=GMO, pretty much guaranteed.
BTW, you couldn't have looked very hard as this topic comes up all the time.
 
It's not mandatory, but the Navy seems enjoy using it to suck extra obligation and work out of people. For those who don't know:
(ADSO = active duty service obligation)
4 years HPSP (+4 years ADSO): 4 years ADSO
1 FYGME intern year (-1 year ADSO, +1 year ADSO): 4 years ADSO
3 year GMO (-3 years ADSO): 1 years ADSO
4 year residency (-1 year ADSO, +4 years ADSO): 3 years ADSO

versus Army or Air Force

4 years HPSP (+4 years ADSO): 4 years ADSO
4 years residency (-4 years ADSO (if in-military), +4 years ADSO): 4 years ADSO

Hmm
 
I recently spoke to a Navy Doc that specialized in tropical infections and she had said that it was unlikely to have to serve a GMO tour. Does anyone know anything contrary to this?

Ask the recruiter to put it in writing that you won't have to do a GMO tour. Then you can use it as evidence that your contract was violated when it happens.
 
Navy has been trying to get out of the GMO business the last few years but I don't see it happening. Like others have said, you will likely do a GMO unless you want a primary care specialty.
 
Just had an operational brief by CAPT Chun from BUMED and his response to a question about GMO conversion was that the current number of GMO positions (roughly 500) is about what the Navy plans to stay at for the immediate future. They have cut from almost 1000 GMO positions in 1992 to 499 in FY2009. His explanation was that, due to our unique relationship with the Marine Corp, there are certain Marine billets that are better suited to an intern-trained O-3 instead of a residency-trained O-4. The problem he quoted was the Marine CO's no liking being equal-rank with their medical officers and thus there were just some positions that will not be considered for conversion. So it sounds like GMO's are here to stay, and for right now, stay at around 500 billets.
 
I just had an official briefing about this from BUMED. At least for the intern class of 2011 in the Navy, a GMO tour is basically a guarantee-- There are 38 straight-through PGY2 spots in the ENTIRE NAVY for 2011- thats ALL programs, ALL locations. So, figure out the math.

If you're an intern in the Navy as of this moment, you'll most likely go out into the fleet in 2011.

Depending upon your class size, the numbers will vary. There is a current shortage of flight surgeons so there are 88 flight surgery billets to fill this year. Part of the reason for so many fleet billets.

I wouldn't make any decisions based upon the "I wont have to do a GMO tour so this won't be so bad" rationale.
 
Just had an operational brief by CAPT Chun from BUMED and his response to a question about GMO conversion was that the current number of GMO positions (roughly 500) is about what the Navy plans to stay at for the immediate future. They have cut from almost 1000 GMO positions in 1992 to 499 in FY2009. His explanation was that, due to our unique relationship with the Marine Corp, there are certain Marine billets that are better suited to an intern-trained O-3 instead of a residency-trained O-4. The problem he quoted was the Marine CO's no liking being equal-rank with their medical officers and thus there were just some positions that will not be considered for conversion. So it sounds like GMO's are here to stay, and for right now, stay at around 500 billets.

I can't say I'm really surprised by this, but this approach demonstrates stupidity of epic proportions.

First of all, the idea that we should be sending out undertrained physicians to practice unsupervised is laughable irrespective of the reason.

Secondly, I don't buy the whole notion that Marine Corps line officers give a rat's ***** if their medical officer is an O3 or O4.

Lastly, if these slots were held by BE/BC family practitioners or general internists, then they would spend the first three years of any operational/hardship tour as an O3 anyway.

It sounds like they're just trying to polish a turd.
 
The Navy has no intention of eliminating GMOs. It would cost more money and even when the money was flowing in like a firehouse they wouldn't and couldn't consider it. Anything medical that increases costs won't pass the SG, DoD secretary of health affairs desk...
 
Secondly, I don't buy the whole notion that Marine Corps line officers give a rat's ***** if their medical officer is an O3 or O4.

That Capt probably never even did a tour with the Marines!!!
 
I don't know, that's just what I was told. Take it for what it's worth. I will say though, there was a full bird colonel in the back shaking his head up/down and agreeing with Captain Chun's comments.
 
Atlas Shrugged- If you're not completely married to the Navy idea, the likelihood of a GMO tour is much less in the Army than the other services.

At last look (granted, a couple years ago, but I don't think the data's changed much), straight through training was about 70% for Army. Almost-sure-thing for primary care and psychiatry, bad odds for EM.

Just a thought...
 
Secondly, I don't buy the whole notion that Marine Corps line officers give a rat's ***** if their medical officer is an O3 or O4.

It's true - the Marine line is very uncomfortable with having medical officers that outrank everybody.

Now, we should just just say too bad, get over your stupid rank hangups you jarhead 🙂, and instead be happy you're getting a more senior and qualified doctor.

But in general they don't view our rank as something we've earned, and they do not like having O4 docs at the battalion level. It's stupid 'logic' but it definitely was (is?) pervasive in the USMC line.

If our medical leaders are really influenced by that 'logic' then they're even more floppy spined than I thought.
 
It's true - the Marine line is very uncomfortable with having medical officers that outrank everybody.

Now, we should just just say too bad, get over your stupid rank hangups you jarhead 🙂, and instead be happy you're getting a more senior and qualified doctor.

But in general they don't view our rank as something we've earned, and they do not like having O4 docs at the battalion level. It's stupid 'logic' but it definitely was (is?) pervasive in the USMC line.

If our medical leaders are really influenced by that 'logic' then they're even more floppy spined than I thought.

That just makes the situation worse and more depressing. It makes the Marine Corps officers just as stupid as the medical corps brass. These clowns deserve each other.
 
I don't know, that's just what I was told. Take it for what it's worth. I will say though, there was a full bird colonel in the back shaking his head up/down and agreeing with Captain Chun's comments.

Not a colonel. Probably a Navy physician in a Marine Corps uniform that works at HQMC.
 
I'm interested in HPSP or USUHS and joining the Navy to serve my country and patch some soldiers up. I have searched around but haven't found any current (closest I found was this thread started 6 years ago: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=112867) information regarding if GMO tours were still standard practice.

Spending a few years as a GMO and delaying residency does not sound terribly exciting to me.

I recently spoke to a Navy Doc that specialized in tropical infections and she had said that it was unlikely to have to serve a GMO tour. Does anyone know anything contrary to this?

Thanks in advance.

If you are interested in a competitve specialty, meaning anything surgical (especially ortho), anaesthesia, and EM, you can count on doing GMO time. Too many of the applicants will have done a tour and will have higher accrued points in the selection process as a result. Even among returning GMOs, there is stiff competition for in-service slots, especially for gas and EM.

The GMO issue is still controversial, as it should be, but the Navy is and has been determined to ignore the Congress and its supposed insistence on eliminating post-internship GMOs in favor of BE/BC doctors. So far, they have gotten away with this and it has cost them nothing (except a steady decline in competitiveness of HPSP applicants, so not exactly nothing.)

It is laughable to think the USMC is going to determine the Navy Medical Corps training policies. They could simply get told that this is the new pool of medical officers from which you will receive support. End message. Blaming it on the Marines is just too funny, no matter what the Marine battalion culture is. Do they cry about the dentists and chaplains too?

The Navy does not have enough training billets to offer residency training for all the allotments it has through the HPSP. The structure of its present training hospitals is highly pyramidal ("top hat") and is specifically designed to crank out lots of PGY1 doctors who must become GMOs simply because there aren't enough PGY2 slots to train them all. The present system requires large numbers to be flushed into the GMO pool from which most are expected to electively leave the service, and a few are expected to return to fill the much smaller number of PGY2 openings. This has nothing to do with Marines, except that is where large numbers of intern-GMOs are sent to wait. It would have to grant many more civilian deferments and then have to deal with a disaffected pool of BC/BE physicians who would cost more to field as they would be entitled to higher pay with greater rank and qualifications. They would also be possibly less compliant with the quality of leadership from BUMED which relies on undertrained GMOs who want only to get their opportunity to train properly, in or out of the service, to not rock the boat too much. It is one thing for an O3 to say the BUMED policies are archaic, reckless and dangerous, it is different when that comes from someone with more credibility, qualifications and professional standing.
 
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That just makes the situation worse and more depressing. It makes the Marine Corps officers just as stupid as the medical corps brass. These clowns deserve each other.

Well, you gotta understand that most Marines think that their Battalion Surgeon is an actual surgeon, albeit one who was too stupid to get a real job in the civilian world.

They didn't really understand my job (or how/why I ended up with the infantry) any more than I really understood fire & maneuver. Their lack of perspective is understandable ... it's the medical corps leaders who have no excuse.
 
Just had an operational brief by CAPT Chun from BUMED and his response to a question about GMO conversion was that the current number of GMO positions (roughly 500) is about what the Navy plans to stay at for the immediate future. They have cut from almost 1000 GMO positions in 1992 to 499 in FY2009. His explanation was that, due to our unique relationship with the Marine Corp, there are certain Marine billets that are better suited to an intern-trained O-3 instead of a residency-trained O-4. The problem he quoted was the Marine CO's no liking being equal-rank with their medical officers and thus there were just some positions that will not be considered for conversion. So it sounds like GMO's are here to stay, and for right now, stay at around 500 billets.


To be honest, you don't need to be a medical genious to take care of Marines or Sailor's. The majority of them are in pretty good health. I personally think it's a waste of a board certified IM or FM doc to take care of these soldiers and their skills will deteriorate pretty rapidly in a GMO/FS/DM billet. I think they should consider converting these GMO billets for IDC/NPs etc...
 
Just had an operational brief by CAPT Chun from BUMED and his response to a question about GMO conversion was that the current number of GMO positions (roughly 500) is about what the Navy plans to stay at for the immediate future. They have cut from almost 1000 GMO positions in 1992 to 499 in FY2009. His explanation was that, due to our unique relationship with the Marine Corp, there are certain Marine billets that are better suited to an intern-trained O-3 instead of a residency-trained O-4. The problem he quoted was the Marine CO's no liking being equal-rank with their medical officers and thus there were just some positions that will not be considered for conversion. So it sounds like GMO's are here to stay, and for right now, stay at around 500 billets.

I dunno. Everyone in the world knows doctors are different and make rank quicker for pay purposes. Even the dumbest battalion commander knows (1) that his docs could easily be making $150+K in the civilian world vs. ~$90-100K working for Uncle Sam and (2) most want to work with Marines because, well, they are Marines. Any Marine Major or LtCol who gets upset/intimidated by a LCDR or CDR medical officer needs to get his cojones rechecked.

The marines may have plenty of reasons to keep the current GMO structure, but I doubt rank phobia is one of them.
 
And while you're at it, call Papa John and tell him his pizza is lousy. Blech!
 
I was at a medical staffing meeting between the Navy and the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps set a hard requirement for medical staffing and a couple Navy Captains were doing everything they could to block it because they didn't want to support it. So this Marine COL starts mocking one of the Navy Captains and tells her to get her pack on and come to the greenside. It was actually quite funny. The Marines get it and they know exactly what they need but can't get it...
 
Well, feel free to contact Captain Chun and tell him he's FOS.

Maybe its true that the Marines would prefer not to deal with senior docs. They believe GMOs provide adequate care. They lack the perspective to see the misadventures. If we wanted to do so, they would be easy to convince that they don't want GMOs. We don't want to convince them and, as long as we don't try, we can blame them.
 
What's his number? I'll break it to him.

Do you really want his number?????:laugh::meanie:😀

He is just saying what we have all been told. I will be heading back to the green side. I will probably be senior to everyone except my CO. They won't like it, but it is what it is.

I hear the poppy fields are lovely in April.
 
When a Navy CAPT says "due to our unique relationship with the Marine Corp, there are certain Marine billets that are better suited to an intern-trained O-3 instead of a residency-trained O-4" that's B.S. That Navy CAPT knows its B.S.

The fundamental problem is there is a conflict of interest. That Navy CAPT's career is irreversibly intertwined in the Navy. If the Navy CAPT does what is right and stands up for the Marine Corps by saying "hey we need residency physicians" he or she is basically taking on the BUMED party line and that puts their career in jeopardy. I honestly wonder if the Marine Corps would be better off having its own medical corps. Or maybe the medical officer of the Marine Corps needs to have the same rank as the Navy Surgeon General.

My theory is sometimes that Navy CAPT just makes an excuse to save face. Blame it on the Marines about the medical staffing, that way they don't have to take on the BUMED party line.

What do you think?
 
When a Navy CAPT says "due to our unique relationship with the Marine Corp, there are certain Marine billets that are better suited to an intern-trained O-3 instead of a residency-trained O-4" that's B.S. That Navy CAPT knows its B.S.

The fundamental problem is there is a conflict of interest. That Navy CAPT's career is irreversibly intertwined in the Navy. If the Navy CAPT does what is right and stands up for the Marine Corps by saying "hey we need residency physicians" he or she is basically taking on the BUMED party line and that puts their career in jeopardy. I honestly wonder if the Marine Corps would be better off having its own medical corps. Or maybe the medical officer of the Marine Corps needs to have the same rank as the Navy Surgeon General.

My theory is sometimes that Navy CAPT just makes an excuse to save face. Blame it on the Marines about the medical staffing, that way they don't have to take on the BUMED party line.

What do you think?

In public, we must all tow the party line. Behind closed doors, we fight the battles. Making TMO a three star won't fix this. Having worked in and around HQMC this comes from the very top. A unified medical command with a 4 star might fix this.

We could meet both demands by having most of our primary care graduates go straight through and do their first tour with the Marines. They would be residency trained O3s. My concern is that it would dissuade med students from going into those specialties.
 
We could meet both demands by having most of our primary care graduates go straight through and do their first tour with the Marines. They would be residency trained O3s. My concern is that it would dissuade med students from going into those specialties.
I don't think it would dissuade any med students from going into those specialties. I just think it would dissuade med students going into those specialties from joining the Navy.

Most of what I've heard seem to indicate that a majority of greenside GMO slots could be filled by a competent PA. Any reason the Navy just doesn't convert some of those GMO slots to PA slots?
 
When a Navy CAPT says "due to our unique relationship with the Marine Corp, there are certain Marine billets that are better suited to an intern-trained O-3 instead of a residency-trained O-4" that's B.S. That Navy CAPT knows its B.S.

The fundamental problem is there is a conflict of interest. That Navy CAPT's career is irreversibly intertwined in the Navy. If the Navy CAPT does what is right and stands up for the Marine Corps by saying "hey we need residency physicians" he or she is basically taking on the BUMED party line and that puts their career in jeopardy. I honestly wonder if the Marine Corps would be better off having its own medical corps. Or maybe the medical officer of the Marine Corps needs to have the same rank as the Navy Surgeon General.

My theory is sometimes that Navy CAPT just makes an excuse to save face. Blame it on the Marines about the medical staffing, that way they don't have to take on the BUMED party line.

What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiHi1pWhTS8
 
In public, we must all tow the party line. Behind closed doors, we fight the battles. Making TMO a three star won't fix this. Having worked in and around HQMC this comes from the very top. A unified medical command with a 4 star might fix this.

Not sure why the USAF keeps balking at this one. Maybe institutional paranoia of loosing a measure of independence?

We could meet both demands by having most of our primary care graduates go straight through and do their first tour with the Marines. They would be residency trained O3s. My concern is that it would dissuade med students from going into those specialties.

Maybe it would dissuade some at first. But I think if they talk with anyone who knows anything, they will find out the Marines are one helluva bunch of guys (and gals) who really take care of their people (including their Navy docs, chaplains, etc.).
 
Maybe it would dissuade some at first. But I think if they talk with anyone who knows anything, they will find out the Marines are one helluva bunch of guys (and gals) who really take care of their people (including their Navy docs, chaplains, etc.).

That's a great analogy. I worked with an O6 chaplain on the greenside and his rank was transparent. Everyone saw him as someone to help and he was a great leader, very effective.
 
Maybe it would dissuade some at first. But I think if they talk with anyone who knows anything, they will find out the Marines are one helluva bunch of guys (and gals) who really take care of their people (including their Navy docs, chaplains, etc.).

Well said! The Marines I worked with/on last month were incredible. There's always a few rotten apples but most of those young people are pretty locked-in. The relationship between a Marine and their Doc is pretty special.
 
Especially the ones irrigated by World Food Programme projects. 🙂

Pink and white flowers, they are so pretty and everyone is so concentrated on making opium...so peaceful!
 
Maybe it would dissuade some at first. But I think if they talk with anyone who knows anything, they will find out the Marines are one helluva bunch of guys (and gals) who really take care of their people (including their Navy docs, chaplains, etc.).

This totally misses the point. If you take every GMO billet and make it a primary care billet, then only primary care doctors do the work that is now spread around to future specialists. Whatever you say about it, the GMO system ensures that every wannabe radiologist takes a turn in the fleet first. The Army/AF model ensures that primary care docs are operational at an unsustainable pace. We already beat the junior FPs up big time and this only makes it worse.

Away from home is away from home. Doesn't matter how much the Marines pay lip service to their special relationship with their docs (and this really exists with the 8404s more than the MOs).

BTW, the more time I spend around the Army, the less I want a unified medical command.
 
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